Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live. Francis, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Wow. Okay.

I had to take a nice deep breath before that one. How are y'all doing? I had a great weekend. Thanks for asking. All right. Now, if you are interested in giving me a call, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276 and we can talk. And if you're new to the show, what this is is a Christian apologetic show do questions and answers on biblical topics, biblical theology, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unity Baha'i, Islam, UFOs, The Occult, Logic, a little bit of philosophy and stuff like that. So if you're interested in calling, all you got to do is dial 877-207-2276.

We have four open lines right now. All right. And also, I just want to let you know that the KARM website is doing quite well. And thank you for checking it out. For those of you who haven't yet, please go to KARM.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G.

Check it out. And forward slash donate there will help us too, because we do stay on the air by your support and we do need it. So I'm just asking that you would consider that. We don't need much, just a little bit. And I know that things are getting tough out there in the world.

Yes, they are. But if you could spare $5 a month for the furthering of the kingdom, then that would be awesome. That would be great. You can go there forward slash donate. KARM.org forward slash donate. And we have three schools.

If you want, you can support us that way too. You can go to the schools, learn.karm.org, learn.karm.org. We have some schools there, one on apologetics, one on theology.

Theology is when I ask that you check out if you're interested. And I'm going to have to go through there and modify it because I've learned a great deal since, I don't know, when did I write that, 15, 20 years ago? And I've learned an awful lot. And so, even more.

I mean, it's still good, you know. But I'm learning a lot more meticulous details. So, yeah, a lot more. I can get into it.

But nevertheless, there you go. And also I'm teaching a Bible study on Thursday nights on advanced Trinitarian theology. So if you want to check that out, you can go to karm.org forward slash donate. C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash, not donate, forward slash calendar.

Karm.org forward slash calendar and it'll give you the Bible study links and you can check it out and stuff like that. I think that's it. See, quick and slick. How do you like that? All right, why don't we just jump on the phones and we have four open lines.

8772072276. Let's get to Rudolph from Raleigh, North Carolina. Welcome, buddy. You're on the air. Yes, sir. Okay.

My question is about the marriage being undefiled. I'm not asking about things we definitely know that are not allowed, but there are different kinds of forms of kissing I'm not sure about. Well, wow. I'm not sure how to answer that.

I like to practice all kinds of forms of kissing with my wife. It's all good. I was going to say that there are other, let's just say, subcategories that can involve that and I've actually written about them on Karm.

There's a section on sexuality under the questions and I go through all kinds of variations of that topic as well. Okay. It's there.

Yeah. What's it under? What's that? What do I look under? Under the questions section, I look under the heading of sexuality. I go through those kinds of, very generically talking, if that's good stuff, questions. I go to the scriptures and support the answers. There's a lot of freedom that we have in the marriage bed, but we are not to practice certain things.

I've listed those things out as well according to the scriptures. You can check that stuff out. We're being very generic on purpose because of the nature of the topic and because sometimes people are driving home with their kids in the car and things like that, so we don't want to broach a topic too detailed. Kids are saying, Mom, what does he mean?

Stuff like that. All right? Yes, sir. Thank you. You're welcome. Have a good one. God bless.

You too, man. God bless. All right. Hey, we have five open lines, wide open. Why don't you give me a call?

8772072276. All right. I'm still working on the New Apostolic Reformation. Just literally 40 minutes ago, I did my first video, which has already failed. I did my first video in a series of things that I'll be doing.

I'm going to be working on a lot of videos here at the Karman Intergalactic Headquarters. For some reason, the sound didn't come out right. I did everything right, and the sound didn't come out right. I didn't have time to go through and check it. I've got to reshoot everything, and hopefully we can get it to work out better. But I'm going to be doing that maybe later tonight and try and get a video going.

Oh, man, there's just so much to do. And also, I've released an article, a really interesting topic came up. And so I was discussing with some people last night who were arguing against the God of Christianity.

And they posited something, and I asked for clarification and couldn't quite get it. But an atheist presented me with the argument, and I wrote a response to it. I'm still going to be going through it. I just went through it a half hour ago and updated it even again. And I'll go through it again later tonight or tomorrow and update it. Because I wanted to get it out early because I was an atheist who wanted the information, and it's relevant.

And so I put it out quicker than I normally would, but I did tell them. I said, look, I'll be updating it and modifying it, which is something I just did. And so it's dealing with classical theism, the God of classical theism, and what's called Cartesian scenarios. And because of that, I wrote this response, and I'm going to, I plan anyway, to write a larger response to the Cartesian scenario.

And you ask, well, what is that? Well, they try and argue that God can't exist because omniscience is impossible. And how do you know it's impossible? Because it's possible that a God could be self-deceived or deceived by a super intelligent other force out there. And so they just argue from that, and they say, see, since this is logically possible, therefore, it cannot be the case that God is omniscient. One of the things I've been doing lately when I talk to people is I ask them to supply the conditions in which their scenario can obtain validity. I ask for the conditions by which they say something can be. So in other words, I know it's a little bit heady, but check this out. These are the kind of circles I sometimes get into. The issue of what's called moral anti-realism, so I'm talking to an atheist on Saturday who's a moral anti-realist. It's a great conversation.

I think it was Saturday. Anyway, so what that means is there are no objective moral absolutes anywhere. An objective moral absolute would have to rest in the mind of God. It's objective.

It's not based on us. And so I said to him, I would agree with you that if there is no God, particularly the Trinitarian God, then your moral anti-realism is true. And I said, so I'd like to work with you here and ask the question, what must be true in order for your moral anti-realism to be true? It was a good question. And so he hadn't thought of that before.

It's not like a stumping question, but he hadn't thought about it. So he started working through it. I said, let's work through it together from your perspective. And I came up with some stuff from his perspective. And here's the thing.

If the conditions by which a proposition are offered cannot be demonstrated to be the case but are only thought of as possibly being demonstrated but cannot be demonstrated, then why should we argue or accept that possibility when it can't be demonstrated to be an actuality? And these are some of the questions I was asking and getting into. Me, I enjoy that kind of stuff. And watching a football game would bore me to tears. But this stuff, oh yeah. And yes, you can shake your head and you can say there's something wrong with that boy.

Because that's true. We have four open lines if you want to give me a call. 877-207-2276. Let's get to Rick from Salt Lake City. Hey, Rick, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, how are you? Doing all right.

Hanging in there, man. What do you got, buddy? I got some relatives that I think are borderline blab it and grab it. And they keep throwing the verse 14, 12, John, he will do things greater than I. Jesus sang that. I guess he was a disciple. I don't know if I buy that. I mean, I know Jesus said it.

I don't think Jesus is a liar by any means. Of course not. I actually mean his apostles would do greater things. And I'm assuming they mean miracles and stuff.

I got greater than him. And does that apply even for today? Well, now you're asking the right questions. Seriously.

Most people don't ask those kind of questions. Good for you. So he says, truly I say to you, he believes in me, the works that I do. He will do also in greater works than these will do because I go to the Father.

All right. So the name it and claim it, blab it and grab it says greater works means, it means this. It means that we can proclaim our own reality and I can confess that I need a new Lexus car and I will get it. Well, what's a greater work than the miracles of Christ? I mean, that's what we're talking about here, right? Is getting a car, for example, greater than walking on water, raising people from the dead?

I mean, seriously. And what they're doing often is they're using this verse to justify selfishness. I can proclaim my healing. I can proclaim my wealth.

Usually it's narcissism and they use Christ to justify their narcissism. Greater works than these. So I can claim it. I can name it. I can blab it.

I can grab it. So I ask them, well, what's greater work than what Jesus has done? What did he do? He died on the cross for our sins. Can you do a greater work than that? Would getting a car, being healthy, a miracle of cancer, being cured instantaneously, is that a greater work than that? Of course not. We've got to ask questions.

They don't ask those kinds of questions. Generally speaking, I would say this, a greater work, a much greater work than Jesus walking on water and raising someone from the dead would be leading the lost to Christ and leading them to salvation. That's a greater work.

And what would you rather have? Would you rather have the ability to go into hospitals and whoever you just physically touch is instantly healed? Or would you rather have the ability to preach the gospel and people get saved if you can't see it? I know what your greater work would be, and it wouldn't be healing people in the hospital.

Not that that wouldn't be a great work, but the greater work is eternal, not temporal. So you see, they're not thinking through these things, are they? I guess not. I mean, I really think they think they can do miracles. I don't know. I'm not buying it.

Well, now let's go to the other side. I'm an apostolic age kind of guy. Yes, I know there can be miracles done even today, but I don't think anything is in the same degree as what happened in 2000 years ago. Amen, brother.

I agree with you on that. Now, do you want to hold it and bring something else up after the break? Or if you want to get going, it's up to you. Let me know quickly, because we've got to go. You want to stay? No, that's it. Thanks. All right, brother.

Okay, God bless. Hey, folks, we have four open lines. Give me a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back, everyone.

We have, let's see, three open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Lauren from Salt Lake City. Welcome. You're on the air. Hi. Hello. Hey, hi. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. A little bit hard, but it's okay. Oh, sorry.

I'll get closer. Hey, I am kind of seeking biblical advice from you, I suppose. I have Asperger's, and I have heard that you also have Asperger's. That's true, I do.

Okay, awesome. Hey, I was wondering just how you personally live out just what seems like a biblical call to community and to relationship, autism, and how do you, I don't know, I guess give yourself kind of a break, or do you give yourself a break? Like, do you have different expectations for yourself as an autistic person living out relationship and community Christianity?

Yeah. I've been married 35 years, and we did not know. My wife and I did not know I had Asperger's until, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago. I forgot how long I was diagnosed.

But once I was diagnosed, it made a lot of sense for a lot of past things, just inconsistencies, oddities in behavior, which I didn't know were oddities, but gradually discovered were. I went to church yesterday. I literally sat there with fingers in my ears because I couldn't stand the sound. It was too loud, and there were some tones I couldn't handle. And, you know, it's embarrassing, but what else can I do? I get overloaded, and that's part of the autistic thing. And if there's lights in the wrong place, I don't function well either. So what I do in situations like that is I try not to make anybody else uncomfortable because it's an issue I have to deal with, and so I will usually change situations so that it doesn't become an issue or wear earplugs. And I did wear earplugs yesterday and had to plug my ears.

The music was so slick and loud in the church. So one of the things you've got to do is learn how to handle the situation. And then there's the issue of, because Asperger's means social cues you don't get, which is unusual for women, for females to have Asperger's. But nevertheless, I compensate very clearly, very well with body language. I study body language, I can read someone very naturally, very easily, very quickly. And so then I throw feelers out to see if I'm in the right track by offering something humorous or I'll make a statement, see how the person's body language reacts. And this is how I do.

People don't know I'm doing it, but that's what I do. And what is that noise behind you? Sorry, let me quit. Can you hear me a little better now?

Sorry about that. For me it was very difficult. And that's just a good example of something, whereas it's noise overload. And so like, oh, man, what a relief. Most people, they can fight through that. But those of us with that kind of condition don't do well with it for very long.

I'm surprised you could handle it. So anyway, there's just things. Yeah, sorry, I'm driving. It's all right. So I've been doing this for a long, long time.

I've coached people about it, and I've coached one particular gentleman whose son was autistic. And I said, no, don't do that. He was telling me what he would do to correct it.

I said, no, no, no, don't do that. For example, his son would do the same thing over and over and over with some blocks as a young child and do the same thing, build something, knock it down, build it, knock it down, build it, knock it down. And he says, I'm getting concerned. I said, well, how long does he do this?

If it's eight days in a row, that's a problem. He said, well, he'll do it for five minutes, and then he'll go do something else. I said, oh, that's easy. This is what you do. You get down the floor with him because you've got to understand what he's doing. What he is doing is making sure the world works the same way because the sensory input is different from him for others, and he's probably more analytical. Even at that age, he's going to do this a slightly different way and test and test. And he comes back to it because he wants regularity. Join him in the regularity, get down there with him, and knock over the blocks with him if that's what he wants. Work with him for 10, 15 minutes, and that says you'll watch him. He'll change after a while when he sees that dad participates in the regularity. And the guy told me a year later, he goes, it worked. He goes, you were right. I said, there you go. It's just a processing problem.

If we can learn a few things about the processing, we can do much better. And another thing I do is I have friends, and they know I have these issues. So when we drive in the car, I can't have a radio on with them because I can't process a conversation with them and radio sound at the same time. They know that. They just turn the radio off. And they're not offended. And I just say, hey, thanks, guys. They go, eh, we don't care about you. We just have to love you. And so they'll turn it off. So they insult me in the fun of it all. And that's how we just manage. And it's okay. That kind of stuff.

So I want to just push a little bit further. I feel like you're giving me a lot of information about autism and just how people process. I want to know if you're okay with it. Just personally, how do you do relationships? Like, how do you push through some of the tension, or I don't know if you're maybe introverted or it's hard for you to perhaps be introspective or maybe emotional.

But as a Christian and just biblically the principles that we kind of laid out in the Bible, I personally feel like I have a hard time creating meaningful relationships and sustaining them in a way that it seems like people want. How old are you? I don't know. How do you deal with that? I'm 29. Okay. So you're not married, right? I am married. You are? Okay.

Okay, that's good. So then you work with your husband, who I assume does not have Asperger's, and you ask him to give you advice about certain things to do and not do. And I did this with my wife for years. We'd be in a situation, and people would talk to me in a certain way. I couldn't understand. I couldn't comprehend what they were saying. I'd turn to her and I'd say, what are they saying? And she'd break it down in a simple term. I'd go, oh, why do they say that? Because our brains work a little bit differently.

And so I would rely on her, and I still do in certain situations. I mean, I'm 65 now. I've learned this for so long. I'm pretty good at it.

But this is what you've got to do all the time. And you've got a husband, ask him to say, hey, what's a clue? And a real subtle something. My wife would be in a congregation.

Well, I'd be preaching because I did a lot of guest preaching. And one of the things, we had a code. She would scratch her nose slightly, which meant I was talking too quickly. And I would just watch her.

And she would give me feedback. And, you know, it's okay. It's all right. No one's perfect. But there's an advantage that I have over a lot of people because of this. I'm very analytical, can remember all kinds of stuff, have a quick mind, and can remember patterns. And so because of it, I can arrange biblical theology very detailed and explain it to people. They tell me in a way they can understand.

And here I am on radio doing this kind of thing. So we have strengths and weaknesses within each of our strengths and our weaknesses. Our weakness can become a strength, and our strength can become a weakness, and vice versa. You need to find that strength and rely on your husband and develop little body language codes.

You know, like when he's shaking his head, you know, and his eyes are bugged out. Don't do that. You know, I'm joking. Why don't you hold on after your break here, okay? Get a little bit more. I'm sure you can have more.

Okay. Hey, folks, you have three open lines. If you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back, everyone.

We have two open lines, 877-207-2276. Lauren, are you still there? Yeah. All right. Now, we went through a lot of stuff there. Is any of that helping you?

Sorry. He does help me. I guess I should clarify a little bit. My situation is kind of funny. I'm married to a pastor's son at a very speaker-friendly church. So a lot of the qualities that they look to for leadership are like woo, so just people ability, which I don't have.

So I guess I'm trying to find my place. And just as kind of one of the people who lead ministries and whatnot and also having Asperger's, I'm just wondering, do you and your wife host dinners? Do you have people intimately involved in your lives and share just friendships and things like that?

And what does that look like for you, or do you kind of have different limitations or expectations on yourself as far as that kind of stuff, like personal ministry and relationships? Right. Well, as an individual with Asperger's, I don't need social interaction as much as my wife does. I just don't need it. I can be fine without it for weeks at a time. It doesn't bother me. I've got other things I do. I go teach.

I do interact a great deal on the internet, but it doesn't mean we don't need it and don't want it. They're just different levels. So if you're in a church situation and you want to be used and fit into the church situation properly, then one of the things I would make sure I do in the right context is let them know that you have Asperger's, because people are very kind and very giving. You could even say, because ladies are just wonderful in a church ministry with the women. For example, you could be together and say, you know, I have Asperger's and sometimes I just mess up on this.

They're going to say, oh, don't worry about it, dearie, and all that kind of stuff. So it's okay. But you will have a skill set and you need to utilize that skill set. You know, it's not very common for females, like I said, to have Asperger's. It's a male problem. And one of the reasons is because our corpus callosum between the brain hemispheres is not as advanced, as large as the connective ones with women. Women have it twice as bad, twice as good, twice as much connective tissue in the brain hemispheres. We tend to focus better, but you can multitask better. So you should be able to still perform great things. You've just got to learn your limitations. One of the things I would consider doing is an outline of information about yourself.

Ask your husband to verify it. You pray through things and you experiment in finding where you can fit in. And that's okay.

You'll find stuff. You did mention that you sometimes can go weeks at a time without, you know, interacting with people face to face. Do you, I don't know, I guess I just feel like obviously it's kind of a gray area biblically, but do you, what do you think like Jesus would think about that?

I don't know. I guess that's kind of my question because I have a hard time. A lot of people are pushing me to interact with people and I also would say I don't necessarily need it, but I don't know if it's effective in doing ministry sometimes. That's the case is that sometimes it is necessary to be more interactive in order to perform better in ministry. That's just the necessity of it. If you don't need that interaction as much as others, then what you do is you realize you don't need it as much as others, but it doesn't mean they don't need it. And so what you can do is give that to the Lord and say, Lord, even though I don't need it as much, I know others do please use me to help them. And that's how you deal with it. There's nothing in the Bible that says you have to have 2.8 hours of fellowship with unbelievers or believers, you know, each day or nothing like that.

It's just different for different people, different situations. So, you know, it's okay. I would just not worry about it.

I would pray about it and ask your husband to help and then reach out into the church context and the people and seek to be used and expect failure. When I say that, I never mean, oh, you're just going to fail. You're so miserable. I mean, expect like anybody, you're going to mess up and that's okay. I love hearing people's failures because it means they're trying. It means they're doing and they're learning and that's okay. No big deal. And you just move forward and you will be used by God.

You will be used by him in ways that is unique to you. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you going there with me and yeah, I'll keep praying about it. Appreciate you. Yeah. And watch, learn body language.

It's extremely valuable. Let me give you a quick something. Okay. Let's say you're talking to somebody, male or female. There's slightly different interactions. Let's just say that the person you're talking to looks at you for a bit and while you're talking looks past you and blink slowly. What does that mean? It might mean that the person has an idiosyncratic problem, but it could also mean they're bored. It could mean they're tired, just very tired. And so if they're tired, you want to watch for other signs. Maybe they're just physically tired and they're raising their eyebrows up and down. They're trying to stay awake and you realize, oh, are you okay? Are you tired? Oh, I'm so tired.

And you're right on the mark. Or they're just looking and you realize you've been talking about knitting for the past 28 minutes and they're getting ready to go into a coma. Then you say okay. Yeah. So it helps and you can do that. And something like 80% of our information is sent through body language. People just don't know. But I know a lot about it.

So it's fun. Yeah. Awesome.

No, that's a great tip. Okay. There's all kinds of stuff like that. All right? Okay. Thank you. All right.

God bless, Lauren. I spent a little extra time on that because that's an issue close to home with me. It's a real struggle. And let me tell you, for those of you who have issues like that, whether it's that one or slightly different ones, let me tell you, when you give yourself to God and you're broken and you're not a great vessel to be used, it's not the instrument.

It's the hand that wields the instrument. I have one of my daughters is a genius with drawing and that's just not dad saying it. It's incredible what she can do. And people are just blown away by her ability to draw.

Okay. I can take the exact same pencil and I could barely draw a stick man. I could take a broken pencil. I can't do anything with it.

She could take a broken pencil and make a masterpiece. It's not the instrument. It's the hand that wields the instrument.

That hand is God. Yield yourself to his molding and shaping and you can do accomplish great things by his grace as he moves through you. So he's allowed you to be what you are now. Yield that to him and say, all right, what have I got to learn?

Where do I have to change? What do I have to do to be used in that niche of existence that you've assigned for me? And then you go forward in that way.

It's not always easy, but it's good. Let's get to Maverick from Idaho. Hey, Maverick, welcome.

You're on the air. Hey, thank you, Matt. I really appreciate you taking the time. I really enjoyed actually listening to what you had to say to that young lady.

It was just really wonderful to listen to. Well, my question real quick here. I've been discussing with a gentleman who he used to go to a church that was fairly kind of Calvary Chapel-esque. Then he became Reformed and then he jumped over to Eastern Orthodoxy and it's really just really destroyed him and his family because his wife still goes to the Reformed Church and he's just gone full-born into Eastern Orthodoxy. But I've been having quite a few debates with him and I wanted to ask you, they brought up or he brought up that all of the early church sermons and ceremonies were all in traditional liturgy and he referenced that. He says Peter was illiterate and couldn't read, so it all had to be oral. And I wanted to ask you your thoughts about that. And I think it's in Acts 4 or somewhere in there where Paul and John are said to be Sanhedrin. So what was your opinion about that and then also just on Orthodoxy in general?

Yeah, Orthodoxy is not Christian, flat out. Now, you're in Idaho. I don't know if you're near where I live, but I'd be willing, if your buddy is local, I'd be willing to come on over and we could have a nice discussion on it.

Seriously. So if you want to do that, we can arrange it. That's fine. But if that doesn't work, it doesn't work. But when they go to church fathers, what they're doing is listening to the voice of another shepherd. I've done a fair bit of research in the church fathers. They don't always agree. And whether or not they were oral or not doesn't mean it's true or not or it's the right way to do something or not.

The final authority is scripture, not the church fathers and not the Eastern Orthodox Church. So, you know, there's so much to talk. I do pretty regularly speak with ego people. So I'm very familiar with what they talk about in energies and theosis and various things.

And I'll just tell you, it's not Christian. Now we've got a break, so hold on and develop your next question or I forgot where we were. We'll get back to you right after these messages.

I think I'm writing that. We'll be right back folks. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show everybody. All right.

Let's see Maverick. He's still there. I'm here.

I'm here. Thank you. All right. So I've got Peter and stuff. Go ahead.

Oh yeah. Just the other part of it was that they were asserting that Peter could not read and kind of going off of the section in Acts where Peter and I believe it's John are in front of the Sanhedrin testifying about Jesus. The Sanhedrin says that they perceive that these men are uneducated and I believe the Greek word there can be translated to be illiterate, but I want to just kind of hear your opinion about it and what you think. Okay. So let's see. Unlearned. I'm going to look at the word unlearned. Oh boy, I can't even spell it. Unlearned.

I think it's out of Acts 4 is where it occurs to, but I can't find the exact verse. Uneducated. Let's try that. So there can be different levels of Acts 4, 13, uneducated, and that's the Greek word agrammatos and it occurs there. Let's see.

Letter, learning, unlearned, illiterate. Okay. So let's just say that is the case. Okay. Let's just say that's the case.

You'd say, yeah, so now what? What's the, what's the issue? Peter couldn't, let's just say he couldn't read, not that it's proven. Well, what are they trying to prove? That there has to be oral tradition?

Is that what they're trying to get to? I believe that's, yeah, what they're trying to get at is that Peter was illiterate, couldn't read, and all of these people in the early church couldn't read, so, you know, the Gospels and the writing, it was all liturgy basically. Well, what if it was? What if it was liturgy based? And I'd say, yeah, so?

So what? It's also the case that they walked around in sandals. Should you be wearing sandals? They often walked around in robes. Should you be wearing robes? They would do liturgy because people didn't have, you know, literacy. Does that mean we're supposed to have the church be literate?

And a lot of times they would have women sitting on one side and men on another. Should we do that? And don't forget, don't cut your hair.

And do you have a hat on? How far do they want to go? Because they're only looking for those things that support Eastern Orthodoxy, a gigantic cult.

Here's something that I will do. I'll say, okay, so you're, you're assuming then that, that the tradition and that the liturgy and all this was there because it's a traditional kind of a thing. That's what they're going to be saying. And I do happen to know that they hold to the idea of sacred tradition and that their church, I hate that, their church is the true church, blah, blah, blah. And that if you want to get right with God, yeah, it's their church. Their church replaces Jesus, what it comes down to.

So this is what I would recommend. Thessalonians 2, let me read this for you. Paul says, now we request you brethren with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him. This is the return of Christ, okay? That you not be quickly shaken by your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us to the fact that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first.

The men of lawlessness has revealed the son of destruction who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called object of worship, et cetera. Do you not remember why I was still with you? I was telling you these things. Now that's for 2 Thessalonians 2, 5. Wait a minute. If oral tradition was so good, why is it the Thessalonians were getting it wrong when Paul the apostle himself had told him, told them, and they were getting it wrong.

He had to write it down to fix it. So I asked them, if the Thessalonians were getting it wrong from the oral tradition, the tradition, the oral proclamation, that Paul the apostle directly gave them and they're still getting it wrong, what makes you think that you're going to get it right 2,000 years later? Okay? That's really good, yeah.

That's very good. We talked at one point about Galatians chapter 1. I think it is where Paul addresses that they've been deceived to believe a gospel that's not really a gospel. And I kind of talked to them a little bit about a similar point because they really rely heavily on an assertion of authority and these direct lines going back to the apostles in apostolic succession, and so I said, well, how do you actually define that for one thing?

Because it's very ambiguous. And then I'm like, well, aren't these people successors, and then they're already abandoning the gospel. Yeah, they are.

Yeah, they've already abandoned the gospel. One of the things you can do, there's so many things, and I'm serious, I think you and I have met, you're sounding familiar, whatever, but I think you're in this area, aren't you, Boise area, Melba or something like that, right? Yeah, I live off Floating Feather, and we've never met in person.

I'm from Oregon originally, but we've talked on your show once in a while. Okay. Well, you're welcome to come to my Bible, so I can Thursday nights if you want.

If you do, just email me, info at carpet.org, and we'll give you the address and stuff because we talk. I will. And I'd be willing, if your buddy's local, to meet him too, but at any rate, and have a discussion with people and get together and help them out. All right, so try this with them. I've done this before with Catholics and with Eastern Orthodox.

I'm showing my hand here, tipping my four aces. I'll ask them. I'll say, okay, so you hear the truth, right? Yes. Okay.

You want to preach the gospel so people can get saved, right? Yes. Okay.

Good. What is the gospel? Just ask them.

What is it? What they're going to tell you is a series of things associated with the membership and adherence to their church and their church principles. That's what they're going to do. And they're going to say, Jesus died for our sins, maybe, and that the sacraments of our church, et cetera, et cetera, the joining of the church with baptism, et cetera, et cetera. They're going to do that, okay?

And you ask them, okay. So there's like four or five, six different elements of the gospel. Yes. Okay. Are you sure that's what it is?

Yes. You go to 1 Corinthians 15, 1 through 4, and he says, Brethren, I make known to you the gospel. And he goes on, and he says that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and he was buried, and he was raised from the third day according to the scriptures.

And he appeared to Cephas. So what's the gospel according to the scriptures? The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That's what's defined as the gospel, the good news. The atoning sacrifice. I'm going to say, what is the gospel? Because they always talk about additions of works and things like that. Then I take them to 2 Corinthians 4, verses 3 and 4.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that we may not see the glory of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So that's one thing you can do, among others. There's lots. All right. Thank you very much. Yeah.

He's actually back in Oregon. Most of our conversation has been on Facebook and things like that, and a few of his other Eastern Orthodox guys chime in, and I will say, they are very condescending to anybody who disagrees with them. Tell them. I'd be glad to have a discussion with them, a live discussion with them online about Eastern Orthodoxy. I won't beat them up, won't chew them up, but I know how to ask questions that are difficult for them to answer because you always have to get to what their ultimate authority is. And to them, it's always the church and their interpretation of what they believe the church tells them to interpret the scriptures as.

There's the thing. To them, the church has the authority to interpret scripture. You ask them, how do you know that's true? Because they're the ones who are interpreting scripture to say the Eastern Orthodox is true church. So they're submitting the Eastern Orthodox church to them, their own private interpretation of scripture.

But wait a minute, you can't do that if you're Eastern Orthodox, so they're stuck. These are just some of the quick and slick things. There's things. All right, buddy? All right. I don't know if we're losing them or not. Okay. So if you want to contact me at info at karm.org, that's fine. Let's get to the next longest way.

Ooh, that's a long time. Carlos from North Carolina. I forgot what he wanted.

Let's see. We get the last one. Mitchell from Charlotte.

Oh, we lost Mitchell. Israel and something about Christ. Okay. So if you want to give me a call, we have about four minutes.

And if you want to give me a call, we can talk 8772072276. Eastern Orthodoxy. Let's kind of just go over that a little bit. And what I'll do is read to you some quotes that I've developed out of Eastern Orthodox proponents who have told me they know what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches. And I've asked them, what must you do to be saved? Now this is difficult because they don't have any exact book that tells you all this stuff. It's a conglomeration of principles and ideas, and it's difficult to nail them down. So I've spent time talking to many Eastern Orthodox people and have developed what they have told me into paragraphs.

I have three of them. And I'll read them back to these guys, and they will say, yes, that's correct. I wouldn't have written it exactly that way, but yes, that's correct. This is what happened.

So here we go. Salvation. In Eastern Orthodoxy, Adam lost the proper relationship with God through his sin.

Jesus restored the ruptured relationship through his resurrection. Therefore, by participating in the energies of God, that's graces that lead to good works. By participating in the energies of these graces that lead to good works, you slowly become divinized. That means being made more like Jesus in his nature. And in this process, you become justified. So to them, salvation is a process of working with the energies of God to become more divinized internally where you're changed by nature to become more like Christ so that you become justified so that you can end up becoming saved. Wow.

How about this second one? We will participate in the energies of God that will deify us. It means becoming like God and not saying that you become God or a God, but like him. And that's a blurred line I've talked to them about, but nevertheless, we will participate in the energies of God that will deify us. It means becoming like God, identical to what God is, except in his essence. The identical things are things like immortality, glorified state, which is energized by what God is in his operations. He sustains us in our glorified condition. When Jesus became flesh, he deified his human flesh, the uncreated energy of light.

And here's the third one. God is working in and through you to do good works which are perfecting your faith in God. These same works purify your faith, and that purified faith then brings theosis and Christlikeness by which righteousness is obtained. It is the grace and true faith of orthodoxy that achieves theosis.

It's just ridiculous. And what I'll do is I'll go to them and I'll ask them very specific questions and go right to scripture. What does this mean right here? What does this mean right here?

What does this mean? And it's very difficult to work with them in scripture because they do not want to admit what scripture actually says. I know which verses to go to, but they don't want to do that because they don't want to be trapped by God's words because they want to subject God's words to their church. Their church has the authority. Their church is the means of salvation. Their church is how they become more like Christ by which they then observe or become divinized in order to become saved. It's by their church. Their church is their idol. Their church is their idol.

There's the music. May the Lord bless you. We have Simon from Norway. Call back tomorrow, Simon. Too bad we missed you two minutes ago if I didn't pay attention to the God show. And folks, by God's grace, we're back on here tomorrow and we'll talk to you then, all right? Have a good one, everyone. God bless you. We'll see you next time.