Running Back Market (Hour 2)

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That's A-L-L-B-I-R-D-S dot com. Let's go out to the guest line right now and welcome in a man that knows a thing or two about the Dallas Cowboys, and he won three Super Bowls with them, was a multiple-time pro baller. And now, Darryl Moose Johnson, who's been calling games for years on Fox, is the Executive Vice President of Football Operations for the USFL.

And you can get tickets at theusfl.com slash ticket dash hub, and that includes matchups in Detroit, Birmingham, Canton, and Memphis. Moose, appreciate the time. Thanks so much for doing this. How you been? I've been good, I've been good. How you doing, Zach? Well, I've been fantastic. So another year of the USFL, we know last year was successful, Birmingham winning it all.

What are you kind of feeling as you get ready in a month to embark on another journey here? Yeah, it's a little bit different this year. It's kind of odd. We had all eight teams in the single hub in Birmingham last year, so it was very, very busy, a little bit chaotic, and getting ready for this season, it's been a much more manageable pace. But the challenge this year will be having the four hubs total, two teams in each hub, spread across the center part of the country, Birmingham, Memphis, Canton, Ohio, and Detroit, Michigan. So not getting a chance to see everybody that you worked so hard with last year is kind of disappointing. So we get to jump on some Zoom calls to catch up once in a while as we're doing some of the day-to-day grind in the business. But it's going to be fun.

Looking forward to it. We've had Skip Holtz here getting ready with his staff, and they're excited to have an opportunity to defend that first championship. What was your favorite part of last year? My favorite part was the progression from week one all the way to the championship game in Canton, Ohio, and really the opportunity to have our first playoff series and championship game at Tom Benson Field at the Hall of Fame was something that was really, really special for us. We had Jimmy Johnson come in, and he addressed all four teams in our playoffs during that week.

We wanted it to be something special for the guys to show them how much we appreciated all the hard work that went into year one in the USFL, and it couldn't have come off any better. We had some really good games. Had a little bit of an upset there with Philadelphia. Houston and Philadelphia were probably playing the best football down the stretch. Philadelphia was able to qualify for the playoffs. Houston was not, and they knocked off New Jersey.

Truth be told, if Case Cook doesn't break his leg in the championship game, I think that's going to be a real nail-biter coming down to the end. I think that was the most enjoyable thing for me, to see where everything started, to see how much time and energy and passion was put into it by everybody. Players, coaches, staff, league staff, and to watch us grow from the time we walked into training camp through the course of the regular season and to be able to crown that first champion in the USFL at the Hall of Fame was just awesome. I think the neat part about it, Daramuus Johnson, is I'm programmed right, NFL, college football, that's my football, but not everyone can get to the NFL or not everyone has the easiest path to get to the NFL. I think giving guys more opportunities to extend their professional football career and maybe find the path to get back to the NFL has to be a neat part for you. It really does. It really does.

It's so hard today, and you don't know what the circumstances are. To see somebody like Kevontae Turpin take advantage of a second opportunity and maximize that was great. One of the guys that I'm excited to see this year, a couple of guys, Kingston Davis and Mark Thompson, two running backs, Kingsons with New Jersey, markers with Houston, he was there last year, but he's been out of football for two years. I think there's an opportunity for him to get to the next level. You never know timing, circumstance, whatever the situation was for some of these young men and why they didn't make it to the NFL to be able to provide that alternative route to get back there.

It's something very special to us. One of the things we're really looking at this year is our first collegiate draft class. We drafted 10 players per team back on February 21st, so we've got 10 players on each of our teams that have access to the rights to these players. Do these guys choose to go through that draft process, which is something that we encourage. You've worked so hard to have that opportunity to be drafted in the NFL, and if you think you still have that chance to fulfill that childhood dream, then please go chase that. If it doesn't work out for you, we've got a place for you here in the USFL, and we've got 80 new names and new faces that we're excited to see that could come our way post-draft time in the NFL.

Talking to Moose Johnson here with us. Aaron Rodgers today basically told the entire world he intends to play for the Jets. What are your expectations with it looking like Rodgers heading over to the Big Apple?

I think it's going to be interesting. We had the Jets a couple of times last season, and really it was the quarterback position that was the challenging part for that team. Robert Salah and his staff have done a great job on the defensive side of the ball building that team. They had both of the rookie of the years last year on the offensive and defensive side of the ball, so they've got some good young talent. They've got a good offensive line. They've got some good running backs. The wide receiver position is growing and maturing. There's a lot of good pieces in place, and Aaron Rodgers is one of those types of quarterbacks that you refer to as the high-tide quarterback, where he raises all ships. Everybody on that offensive side of the ball is going to get a little better with Aaron Rodgers at the helm. I think it's going to be interesting.

I really do. I don't know if they were just that one player away, but there was so much inconsistency with the quarterback position last year for the Jets that if Aaron Rodgers is healthy for all 17 games, it's going to be interesting to see how much pressure the Jets can put on the bills. Yeah, and I just wonder how far they could take it, because this is a positive day if you're a fan of the Jets, but Rodgers, two, three years ago, MVP of the league, back-to-back years, had home field advantage. That offense left you wanting more up against Tampa Bay and San Francisco in the playoffs. I look at Rodgers, I just don't expect him to win another Super Bowl because it's been so many years. Yeah, well, you look at that San Francisco game and it was really special teams that was the downfall that day.

Sometimes head coaches and quarterbacks, they get too much of the credit and they get too much of the blame when things go well or things go wrong. There's a lot of things that you can sit back and look at if you were to go back to that Tampa Bay game and then that San Francisco game. I would have expected Aaron Rodgers to have more than one Super Bowl championship at this time. He's got incredible numbers, he'll be a Hall of Famer, and it's surprising to see him sitting there, not only with just the one, but just how few opportunities there were there when they were in such great position on so many occasions.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, how much gas is left in that tank. A change at this stage of somebody's career, there's mixed results there, but maybe this is something that really invigorates Aaron Rodgers and he embraces it and has a lot of the key pieces in place to help support him. It's not a game that's won by just adding one player. How does that player fit in?

What is the chemistry? What is the culture in that building that Robert Sala and his staff have installed and how well does Aaron Rodgers fit into that? There's going to be a lot of carryover, there's going to be a lot of commonality because Matt LaFleur coming out of a lot of those similar situations in Green Bay that's going to be familiar. There's a lot of connections when you talk about some of these coaching trees that have been intertwined from these franchises. How did you react to the news today that Ezekiel Elliott and the Cowboys are no more?

I've been busy all day here trying to get ready for player arrival tomorrow so I had not heard that one. But when you go with Tony Pollard with the franchise tag, there's obviously a transition that's going to be had. Obviously Ezekiel with the contract that he had, is he going to take less? Does he still feel like there's more in the tank for him? It may be a similar situation to Aaron Rodgers. We remember and we're grateful for everything that Ezekiel Elliott did as Cowboy fans but perhaps this is an opportunity for him to go out and find that opportunity at this stage of his career where he finds a role similar to what he had in Dallas. I still think in the beginning of the year he was running very physically.

There was an uptick the last year. It's just the ability to stay healthy and that's one of the reasons why the running back position has become maybe an undervalued position in the NFL now. We see it so much by committee is because when you have that lead guy, when you have that every down back, it takes a toll. Especially the way that Ezekiel Elliott ran the football.

He was a very physical behind the pad runner. Those hits, they take real pieces from you on the back side of your career as they start to accumulate. It's a sad day for Cowboy fans. I think everybody respects and appreciates everything he did for the franchise.

I think I echo probably everybody's sentiments. We're sad to see them go but we wish them all the best. Back to back years they've had 12 wins in the regular season and then heartbreak in the post season both times at the hands of the 49ers. Do you think the Cowboys are close to getting over that hump and getting back to a Super Bowl? I think it's going to be interesting with Mike McCarthy back calling the plays. It's been a long time with that same offense. Kellen Moore was under Scott Linehan so there was a lot of consistency there and I understand why with Dak Prescott coming in and growing in that system and not wanting to change at that point. But I think that Dak at this stage of his career is going to be an easy transition for him. I expect Mike to have great conversations with Dak Prescott and find out everything that he liked from Kellen Moore's system and incorporate that into what they're going to do this year. But for me, I'm excited to see what Dallas does with Mike McCarthy at the helm calling the plays, building his offense and pair that with what Dan Quinn brings on the defensive side of the ball.

They're close, they're very close. They had the moment last year at 1912 for Dak Prescott. That was his moment. That was his opportunity to join the Troy Aikman, the Roger Staubachs, those great franchise quarterbacks in Dallas Cowboy history with a drive that takes you down and ties that game and then you lead your team to a victory. And you get to go to the NFC Championship game and maybe continue that journey. I know that it was a disappointing outcome for him.

I know that was a bitter pill on that drive. I really feel that the right pieces are in place there. I think that everybody is going to come back motivated. I think everybody understands the window concept in that franchise and you're seeing transition right now. Ezekiel Elliott leaving the franchise. How much longer is Tyron Smith a part of that franchise?

You're starting to lose some of the key guys of those great teams over the last five to eight years, ten years. Last thing I'll ask you, Darrel Moose Johnson, what's your guess on what happens here with the Lamar Jackson situation? He's allowed to get a deal done with another team and the Ravens could either match it or let him walk for two first round picks.

When it comes to week one and you're calling games in the fall, do you think Lamar will still be on the Ravens? I think that's going to be a very hard decision for Baltimore. I think it's really, really hard when you have somebody who's meant so much for your franchise to walk away without fulfilling the ultimate goal in the NFL, which is winning a Super Bowl championship. The one thing for me, looking at the last couple of years, is you need your quarterback to be at his best at the end of the regular season going into the playoffs. In the last two years, Lamar Jackson has been hurt.

I think that's something that's going to weigh heavily on this decision. When you look at transitioning out of that and you get two first round draft picks to start the rebuild, to move away from Lamar Jackson, that is going to be something that's going to be very tempting for the Baltimore Ravens. I think the biggest thing for me, looking at that situation, and I think it's a situation that every quarterback has to understand, is your help in getting through the season. Just seeing how that impacts what it did with Chicago and Justin Fields when he's not in the lineup, as dynamic as he is. When Patrick Mahomes is not healthy in Kansas City, what that does to him.

For Baltimore, the last two seasons, to be in a position to really get into the playoffs and make a run and to lose Lamar at that time, that has to be very, very frustrating for them. Daryl Moose Johnson, thanks so much. Good luck with your number to the USFL and thanks so much for doing this. You got it, Zach.

Thank you. We'll take a timeout. Good stuff from Moose Johnson. When we do come on back, what will the return be for Aaron Rodgers and the inevitable trade between the Jets and Packers?

Does really either side have more leverage than the other? And also, there is one running back we are wondering about his future, not named Ezekiel Elliott, that now we have an answer on. We'll tell you who that running back is when we come on back. You're listening to The Zach Gelb Show.

Zach Gelb Show, CBS Sports Radio. So, some movement on the running back market. We did know that last night David Montgomery is signing with the Detroit Lions, so that did set up the eventual divorce between Jamal Williams and the Detroit Lions. He was a free agent, so Williams, who led the NFL in rushing touchdowns last year, was 17.

He'll be on the move and now we do have a landing spot for him. And Hickey, I know running backs, it's always bizarre in the price tag and we don't end up seeing running backs get as much as you probably think they will. But coming off a career year, I would have thought that it would have been more than $4 million a year for Jamal Williams. I would have agreed.

I mean, these guys have touched that machine. I know a lot of them are, you know, get down to the three yard line and then you're bringing these Rover Bruiser. He only got $8 million in guaranteed money, fully guaranteed money.

And by the way, let me not bury the lead. He's signing with the Saints, which is a good move by New Orleans, who we know brought in Derek Carr this offseason. And you have Alvin Kamara, but Alvin Kamara with his legal situation, we don't know how many games he's going to miss this year, but it's going to be a certain amount. There's definitely going to be some games that he's going to miss this season with the suspension that was kind of punted down the road and we'll eventually find out what that's going to be. But it's a three year deal according to Ian Rappaport for $12 million with $8 million fully guaranteed.

I'm a little bit surprised. And I know the Jets went after Fletcher Cox and then Fletcher Cox ended up taking a hometown discount on a one year deal to stay in Philadelphia. Now, Joe Douglas, GM of the Jets knows Fletcher from their time together in Philadelphia, so maybe that's why he was considering the Jets and also, oh yeah, by the way, Aaron Rodgers is joining them. So maybe that made Fletcher Cox consider the Jets a little bit more. But I'm surprised, and I talked about this yesterday, I thought Jamal Williams playing with Rodgers for the first four years of his career could have found a way in New York, especially when New York, they have Breece Hall who's coming off an injury but looks like to be a tremendous back, but I don't think they love any of those other options. They tried to bring in James Robinson. It didn't work out from the Jaguars. Obviously, they like Michael Carter. I don't think they love him because if they loved him, they would not have drafted Breece Hall in the second round. So I'm surprised for only $4 million a year and $8 million fully guaranteed that the Jets didn't bring in Jamal Williams. I agree.

I agree, especially when you see the list, whether you want to call it a wish list, a demand list, that's been debated about the last 24 hours or so. You would think a guy who's really good in the locker room who, again, has familiarity with Aaron Rodgers and who could bring a nice goal line presence and punch those handoffs in from inside the 5-yard line in on a consistent basis. It's the guy you want on your team. So Montgomery going to the Lions, Jamal Williams going to the Saints, and right now off the board, I don't have the details of the contract, but the Carolina Panthers have their next running back, and that is going to be Miles Sanders. Miles Sanders leaving the Eagles. The Eagles yesterday got Rashad Penny basically for nothing.

It was a very small contract. I would imagine that the Eagles are going to make another move somewhere at the running back position. I know Jalen Hurts does a phenomenal job running the football in addition to all the passing touchdowns that he has, but you knew that Miles Sanders was on his way out in Philadelphia, and now he's going to the Carolina Panthers. You know, that division, that NFC South, it's weird to say it's intriguing because usually you're like, oh, you have high expectations. Like you look at the AFC East. That's intriguing this year.

You got three teams that should have double-digit wins when you look at the Dolphins, the Jets, and then also the Buffalo Bills. But you look at the NFC South, in a weird way I'm intrigued by it because the most pressure to win that division is the Saints because you have the best quarterback in Derek Carr. The Panthers though now have the number one overall pick, and I would imagine that they will start their quarterback, that they draft game one, but you do have Andy Dalton there if you need a place over for three, four games.

If it's C.J. Strata, Bryce Young, start him game one. Don't do what the Steelers did waiting, waiting, waiting on Kenny Pickett and putting Mitch Trubusky out there. But the Panthers have a good defense, and offensively we'll see what pieces they add, but you will have a number one overall pick. You look at Tampa Bay, not that I love Baker Mayfield, but in 2020 he did have a good season. The Browns were in the playoffs, and he goes to a spot on a one-year, I think it was an $8 million deal, $8.5 million deal, which is a good landing spot for him.

Even though Tampa Bay is in a transition, there's not a lot of pressure on Tampa Bay because not a lot of people believe in the regime. But if you're Baker, you get to start, which is a good thing, which it wasn't a lock that you were going to be a starter next year, and I guess there will be a competition between him and Kyle Trask. I would think I'm going to go on a limb here that Baker Mayfield is going to be able to beat out Kyle Trask, but you have Chris Godwin and also Mike Evans on that team. I know the rest of the roster isn't all that great, and they have fallen greatly since winning that Super Bowl three years ago, but I look at Baker landing in Tampa, it's a good spot, and it does close the gap a little bit on the Saints and everybody else. Either the Saints, Panthers, or Bucks, one of those three teams are going to win the division, and then you've got Atlanta, who they've got a whole lot of work to do, and we don't even know who's going to be the quarterback for Atlanta this year.

It's intriguing, I think it's a good word, because I think they're fun teams. I'm genuinely excited to see how Baker Mayfield can fit in Tampa Bay. Again, you know me, I've been hyping up the Buccaneers and trying to have them, instead of resetting or rebuilding, make a push to go win this division. Again, they've not really been doing that, but at least with Baker, you have a chance with some of the offensive weapons you just mentioned. Now you've got Miles Sanders, who's I think a really good offensive weapon for Frank Reich, and whenever a young quarterback they're going to have to work with. He's solid, I think he's a little overrated, if we're being fair. Miles Sanders? Yeah, Miles Sanders had a good season last year, he's a little inconsistent for me, and there's a lot of times when I watch Miles Sanders, and I know he just had a very good season where he went for over 1,200 yards, I think that was more of a product of the system. But there's a lot of times I look at Miles Sanders and I'm like, oh, he should be a lot better than what he's actually doing.

This was his best year. So it gives you some optimism, but the first three years of his career, it was like, okay, you were good, but I thought you'd be a lot better. I think he has some good talent still, and I like the fact that he's a dual threat in terms of running the ball, and especially catching the ball in the backfield, especially right now when you look at the current construction of the Panthers wide receiver corps. You got to run the ball a lot there. Yeah, it's not exactly a murderer's row for whatever pick they get at number one, so at least from that aspect of being a threat in the passing game for Miles Sanders, I like that.

So at least you get a nice weapon to use at your disposal that, again, can help maybe ease the transition a little bit compared to right now. Again, it's great that the Panthers traded up, and it's great that they're going to get their guy, but they also now got to start to help the young quarterback, especially when you ship out D.J. Moore. And by the way, I may have sold the Falcons short.

You know why? Because our guy, Taylor Ham Heinecke, is landing with the Atlanta Falcons, and I would think he's going to start over Desmond Ritter, or you will at least see Taylor Ham Heinecke get a decent amount of starts this year, because I'm not a big believer in Desmond Ritter, even though he did a really good job at Cincinnati when they got to the college football playoff. I would bet Ritter starting week one, but I would agree, we'll see Taylor Ham Heinecke for, I would say, bare minimum five starts. So now you think Lamar Jackson back with the Ravens next year?

Because that was a potential landing spot for Lamar, if the Falcons wanted to get in on it. Listen, Taylor Ham Heinecke, there was actually a decent contract, was it two years for 20 mil, I think? I don't think Taylor Ham Heinecke takes him out of the Lamar Jackson running just yet, that's for sure. Wow, bold take, man. I know, I mean, we're going out on a limb there.

You're really going out on a limb? Falcons are still in the Lamar sweepstakes. Also, the Ezekiel Elliott stuff, it just shows you why you shouldn't draft a running back anymore in the first round, unless if that's your only need, like Buffalo this year. If they somehow had Bijan Robinson available, you could go draft him.

That's, that, you need a running back, another running back on that team. But, when you look at someone like Zeke, who went six overall, you know, I know Christian McCaffrey's wonderful, but now he's on a different team, he went in the top ten. You see, so many guys that go out of the first round running backs, and I know Travis Etienne had a really good season after the injury, and Najee Harris has been a fine player for Pittsburgh. But look at all the guys right now in the league, Derrick Henry, Alvin Kamara, Joe Mixon, you go on and on and on with running backs in the NFL that go second round or later.

And also, you just never know how long the career's going to be. Like, Ezekiel Elliott, when he got into the league right away, he was dominant, right? He was the face of the Dallas Cowboys, right?

America's team, the Dallas Cowboys. And then, like, really the last two years or so, three years or so, you kind of knew that Zeke wasn't as great as he once was. And the drop-off, when you go from being great to then being knocked down a few pegs and you don't have that explosiveness anymore as a running back, it's very alarming. And it was clear for the last two years almost that Tony Pollard, when given the opportunity, was the better back, and I had a feeling, right, when Zeke talked about restructuring and Jerry talked about restructuring, that Zeke still looks at himself as a star, and it was just going to be too difficult to restructure that contract, and Zeke wasn't going to take the price tag down. You know, Zeke will land somewhere, but he's not going to be a bell cow back, and it will land somewhere just because of name, right, and what his star presence once was.

But this is a guy that's 27. Like, if he goes and plays two, three more years in the NFL, you know, I still think he'd be productive. Like, he had 12 touchdowns.

He'd still be solid. But I'd be surprised if we're talking about Zeke, like two, three years from now, really being a relied upon piece in the NFL, because you have a Cowboys team that just lost to Maury Cooper, right, and they were running the ball a ton with Zeke and Tony Pollard, and you saw that Zeke wasn't all that anymore. And if Zeke wants big money, he ain't going to get it. Zeke and Derrick Henry are the last of a dying breed of the bell cow workhorse running back. I know the last, what, two years, basically it's been a split between Zeke and Tony Pollard, but look at the first four or five years of Zeke's career. He was the guy. He was the guy that was feeding Zeke. He was the MVP, the offense, there was discussions, and I'll be honest, I was in the camp, I didn't pay Zeke over Dak. Jerry Jones said they still run through Zeke this year, which was crazy.

That's right. Back in, what, August? Maybe into the season he was saying that. But you're seeing now, it's running back by committee. Even if you got a guy and you want to draft a running back that's just an outstanding talent the first round, it's still okay. You can do that, but it has to be later in the first round, like I said, a team that really has every other need for the most part filled, but also, too, it's still a work, you know, you're sharing the workload, you can't give a running back anymore, 25 carries, five catches, you're basically 30 touches a game for four or five years and make them think they're going to last.

Yeah, you've got to have presence on the ground. You've got to run the football. The Chiefs can still run the football, but they don't have a bell cow back. You look at the last ten Super Bowl champions. Kansas City, Isaiah Pacheco was their best back this year, but they used so many different guys. The Rams didn't have a bell cow back. Tampa Bay, I know Leonard Fournette was really good, but they used a bunch of different pieces. Kansas City, who was it, right, Damian Williams, they could have won the Super Bowl MVP, and you haven't heard from him since. New England has done a running back by committee for years. The Eagles, they went through a bunch of backs that year.

LeGarret Blount, Jay Ajayi, Corey Clement. You look at Denver, you know, Denver didn't have a bell cow back. Seattle was probably the last team that had a bell cow back, and that was Marshawn Lynch. And you're going back to 2014. I mean, you look back at Seattle, it's like you think about the running back first. You think about the defense from those teams in the Legion of Boom. So, the idea of the bell cow back, I'm not saying you don't need someone to run the football anymore, because you do, but you could go with two or three guys and you have a dual-tack approach, and I think that is successful, so we'll see where Ezekiel Elliott does land.

We'll talk about Rodgers' compensation next. Bart Winkler is going to join us. You're listening to The Zach Gelb Show. Bart Winkler always does a great job when I'm on vacation and fills in on this show. You can also hear him other times on CBS Sports Radio, and he has his own show, The Bart Winkler Show, which is a daily podcast on Blue Wire Pods. He joins us right now. Bart, I wanted to bring you on today because I know Aaron Rodgers is your BFF. How did you react to the news today on the Pat McAfee Show and how he handled that for about an hour?

Well, I am excited to be on the same show with John Coon because he's coming out. We both owe our careers to him, but I'm willing to drag Aaron's name through the mud, and he's not, so I'd like to start. I'm tired of this, and I think that Aaron has lost control of the narrative a little bit, and so he was trying to get it back today.

It just comes off pathetic and foolish and embarrassing and depressing and sad. I know the Jets fans are going to be happy because even Rodgers, in whatever state he comes in, is going to be better than anything they've had in the last 30 years. But I think they are getting a guy who doesn't know what he wants. The only thing that he can be fueled by is revenge. He found a way to get revenge, and he's going to go to New York and win seven games, and it's going to be a nightmare for them.

So that's where I'm at right now. No hard feelings, of course, with all due respect. Well, I think they'll make the playoffs, but here's where I agree with you. I think the drama he's selling right now, I don't buy. If you're annoyed that the Packers said they'll let you make the decision and then something changed once he came out of the cave, well, you could have told them because when you went into the cave, you're at 90 percent retirement, which I don't believe, but that's what he claims. And then when you had also the AJ Hawk follow up with them and go, oh, would you have come back if they wanted you back? And he said no, so he didn't want to go back or he was going to retire. Why didn't he just tell the Packers that from the jump?

Because he wants to be wanted, and he wants to be in control of the story. Aaron Rodgers is, there's so many things that bothered me with today, and I think the thing that I keep coming back to is when he blasted the report about the wish list for his players. The wish list. Diana Ruscini put out a tweet that said Aaron Rodgers has a wish list.

He would like the Jets to contact so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And we already signed Allen Lazard. There's reports about Cobb, but Rodgers, this is what he does. He takes that report and says that's false.

And you say, why is it false? The Jets went and signed Allen Lazard. They're talking to these guys. Rodgers then admitted that he said, yeah, I recommend it.

I talked about some of these guys to see if they can. Because what Aaron's saying is, I never wrote on a piece of paper wish list and sent it to the Jets, so therefore it is false. It's like nobody can ever be right about him. Even though the media and Schefter and Rappaport and all these guys, they've been like 99.8% right on all this reporting for three years. But Rodgers will find that one little word that's not placed in the right part and say the whole thing's a lie. It is disgusting. And too many people in this country do it. And I'm, look, I don't know what kind of emotional state I'm in.

This is very stupid. This is ending the same way it ended with the other guy 16 years ago. Rodgers, I think, Galby, Rodgers, I think, thought that he's good enough. He called himself the best player in Packers history, which is fine, maybe, but who says that? So Rodgers, he thought he was good enough that he could leave on his own terms. He thought he had tenure. He thought, I'm leaving when I want to leave. This franchise will do what I want to do when I want to do it.

And all veterans should be the same way. He thinks the Packers moving on from guys too early is not right. It's not the way to do business. And what I was saying on my podcast, The Bart Winkler Show, thank you for the plug, is that, look, my radio career, my career has been up and down. There's been times where I thought I had a job and I didn't.

There's been times where I had a job and then I didn't. And I never have any hard feelings because I know that's the business. I know what business I'm in. And Rodgers has to know what business he's in. He's in a business where guys get cut all the time. Guys don't see the end of their contracts all the time.

And it's all great for player empowerment and all that stuff. And I get he's trying to change the world. But he's got to understand that the thing that happened that got him a starting job was eventually going to happen to him someday. And he's having a hard time dealing with that. And now we have to sit on the other end of the couch while he eats the ice cream and cries to us.

And it's annoying. And so good luck, Jets. Bart Winkler, what do you think the Packers will get back for him?

Because that's the only other thing you have to iron out here. I don't know. I think so. The Packers could have got a bunch for him last year. So now they're like, well, geez, we got to at least save face. I think the Packers are fine trading them for a late pick.

I don't think they care. Just move on from him. Hey, clear some cap space. We're fine with that. We've got Jordan Love.

Let's move on. OK. And the Packers would be probably fine with a package that would get made fun of by their fans and media. And the Jets would say, how we sleep them. And so the Packers are trying to like save face a little bit because you can't just trade Aaron Rodgers for a six round pick when all these other guys are getting traded for first. Now there's other things into it with how terrible that contract is and stuff. And I'm trying to figure out in this case who has the leverage. It seems like the Packers have some leverage because who are the Jets going to sign?

Right. And Rodgers wants to go there. So it seems like the Packers hold the cards. But do the Packers want to make this trade before the draft? Because if they want to make it before the draft, well, then suddenly the Jets get a little more leverage. Well, Bart, that's why this entire thing. That's why this entire thing is stupid. Packers don't care to make it before the draft.

Then the Packers get a bunch of leverage. That's why this entire thing is stupid, Bart, because this could have been figured out a month ago. Rodgers didn't want to go back and the Packers didn't want him back like it should not have got to this point. It's just so dumb.

Well, but it's always dumb. It's always it's been three years now of Rodgers saying, I'll make my decision quick. And then him not making a decision and then him popping up on all these things, whether it's the Kentucky Derby or the Aubrey Marcus show or whatever, and then not saying anything. And then finally we're all like, oh, Rodgers on McAfee today. No, he's not. Then he wasn't.

And then Rodgers is on McAfee. And then he says, I'm not going to I'm not going to say anything. Here's 20 minutes of me talking about I mean, just get to the point.

And it's, it's, I just don't understand how people are like, okay with I just, it's, it's, it's so grating. And no matter how good he was as a football player, this guy eats up way too much of my time, way too much of my life. Yes, it does help my numbers when there's Rodgers news and I'm excited for a good show tomorrow to be posted. But I would rather just move on and see something new as crazy as that sounds as a Packer fan. Jordan love Bart Winkler next year will be what for the Packers? I think he's going to be the next guy.

And I think he's going to be here for a while. I think that Rodgers endorsement of love is true. And I think that to me, what tells me love is good is that Rodgers didn't let him see the field this year. Rodgers played until the bitter end, four and eight injured could have sat down. Nobody would have cared, but then we would have seen five weeks of Jordan love and then we would have all seen.

Okay. Love's ready, but Rodgers would have lost control of the narrative. So he played very pedestrian numbers, didn't have a touch more than a touchdown in any of the last five games. One thing through his defense. I think Rodgers playing through an injury last year wasn't about trying to make the playoffs. It was about trying to keep Jordan love on the bench.

If he knows if we would have saw him, none of this narrative would have been in his control as he's trying so desperately to hang on to it. Do me a favor. You need to calm down a little bit.

I enjoyed playing the role of the therapist today. Go to fourth base tonight. It will be on me. All right. You got to get a good meal tonight. All right.

I will do that. It's just a pop fly from the ballpark, as you know, in Milwaukee. Also, Bucks are winning the championship.

They pretty much decided that on their road trip. So I'm looking forward to talking with you all throughout the summer as well. Yeah, I agree the Bucks will win the championship this year. Your prediction about the Jets only winning seven games, that I don't buy.

So we'll agree on something to end the interview and we'll keep it positive with the Milwaukee Bucks. Bart, be well, all right? I love you. I love you, too. There he is.

The great Bart Winkler. That was awesome. The first five minutes, Hickey, I felt like we were talking to someone that has just been broken up with. Holding like a glass of wine and they're trying to figure out how the heck we got here. They're fine with the breakup, but then they're also annoyed with the breakup.

But they knew the breakup was coming. So you bring a little vino into the conversation. That was great. That was great. Zach Gelb show CBS Sports Radio.

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