Mike Pereira, Former NFL VP of Officiating

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There's a lot to listen to, so get started and download the free Odyssey app today. Mike, appreciate the time. How are you?

I am doing terrific. I made the jaunt from Philadelphia to Sacramento today, and I'm still trying to digest what happened yesterday, but quite the day. Yeah, let me start you off with the AFC title game, because that's just what's been talked about more. The late hit at the end, you hate to see a game end that way, but I thought the officials got it right yourself.

You just can't ignore that. You don't want officiating to be part of the story, although it is part of the story in both games yesterday, but in that type of play, if you don't call that, there's going to be more of a brouhaha than it is if you do call it. Clearly, Holmes is out of bounds, and it was a shove. You often see players do the old flop. They learn that in soccer or watch in soccer, but that was not a flop. That was a clear foul, and it was a difference maker in the game, obviously.

But one as an official, you don't want to be the story. That's just the way that normally it works, especially in the playoffs when you see foul numbers that are down. It wasn't necessarily the catch yesterday, but you have to in that situation, especially when it's player safety, you've got to make sure that you make that call, even though it has a huge impact on the outcome of the game. Earlier in that play, a lot of Bengals fans are saying that the referees missed offensive holding, especially on Trey Hendrickson. When you watch it back, did you notice any offensive holding that should have been called?

It's really almost true. You can almost call holding on every play. Look, there's a dedicated section of the rulebook that says when holding is not holding. Even though there's a grab, if it's part of a double-team block, it's not a hold. If you can't get to the runner or the ball, there's not a significant enough restriction, so then it is not a hold by rule. If it's clearly on the backside of the run or the scramble, it's not a hold. Holding, to me, is not necessarily the hardest one to call, but it's so grey.

The rulebook sets it up as being so grey that it's just impossible to be consistent. I always say, can you call holding on every play? And they say, no. And they say, oh, yes you can.

I say, no, not on a kneel down, a victory formation. You can't call holding on that. But other than that, you can usually find something with hands outside the frame. But again, if it falls into that category of when holding is not holding, then you don't have a foul. But it's one of the most called penalties in the game, and it's a tough one to factor in all those issues.

Mike Pereira here with us. What about on the punt return at the end for Kansas City? Did you think there was a block in the back?

I wish that I had gotten a better look at that. It almost looked to me, I mean, you saw the player, almost a guilty signal, threw his hands up. But to me, it almost looked like contact came from the front also. So it almost looked like he got blocked into it. But I never saw a clear shot on replay. There was no replay that I saw that showed it. Of course, I was in a bar in Philadelphia. I guess I better be honest.

So I didn't get the very best look at it. But it was not enough for me to say clearly that it was a block in the back. Mike Pereira here with us. So I was at the link, and I was watching the AFC title game in the press box, and we didn't have the sound on. But that third and nine where they got the extra down, it was so confusing. And then moments later, you see, like minutes later, you eventually get a replay where the official from the back right was running in and waving his hands because I guess there was a clock malfunction. But I've never seen something like that. How about yourself when the Chiefs got that extra down?

No. And, you know, and it was needless in my mind. I mean, you know, what created this was moving the ball, you know, moving the ball a half a yard, it looked like to me. Now, I don't know what caused the ball to move, if it did get accidentally kicked or if, in fact, it was the replay official that said that the ball was spotted wrong and you needed to move it a half a yard, which is kind of what I suspected. Which is silly because it's third and nine anyways.

It wasn't like it was, you know, a half a yard to the line to gain. And so you come in and you move it. So then you have to shut down the clock and then, you know, chop the ready for play again. And then the clock operator starts the clock when he shouldn't have.

And then the official downfield, you do see him coming in and he is blowing the whistle. But you know how it is in Kansas City, obviously. I mean, it's it's just so it's just so loud. And and it's just it's just it's just nuts. Was that the one in Kansas City you're talking about?

Yes, it is. Yeah. It was it was just so loud that, you know, nobody heard it, but it's self imposed. I mean, again, you know, I'm a little bit worried where officiating is now, just to be perfectly honest with you, because there is so much technology that's involved. There's so much communication that's involved with the replay official, with New York making adjustments on the field after plays, whether it's a yard spot on the sideline or just a spot in the middle of the field. And and I worry that they're just trying to do too much that then creates a situation that that happened there. Now, it's not a mystery because they did show it with the all twenty nine tapes that shows all the officials and the players that one shot that they have the camera.

I mean, he was shutting it down. But, you know, honestly, it's just like it's just like par for the course of what we saw all day. We saw another we got we saw a change that broke. We saw a ball maybe or maybe not hit the guidewire on a punt. I mean, we just had so many bizarre things that happened during the course of the game. Replays where it didn't get stopped because there wasn't a clear view. And Philadelphia ran the line so quickly knowing that it was in question that New York couldn't stop it to try an expedited review because they didn't get an angle in time and neither did San Francisco. And yet it turns out it was clearly, clearly incomplete and neither did I. When I was watching it with the first couple of shots, I said nothing shows me that it's incomplete.

And then you got that high end zone shot from inside and you actually see that the ball did hit the ground and come loose. But it was just, you know, I mean, it just you know, I said this and I'll say it before you asked. I thought the calls, the calls that were made were were normal.

I mean, I don't there were no mysteries. There was one or two that I might not have called, but it just felt so sloppy. I mean, it just felt so sloppy. And I think that's the same, you know, in the AFC game afterwards. It just it just gave all the appearances of a mess.

And and I think really we got to if I was still running the program, I would be in there today, not necessarily thinking that we had screwed up a lot of calls, but just wondering why it was so sloppy and if we've gotten so involved with making, you know, insignificant changes through the expedited review system or video assist or whatever. But that's not the way you want football to look. I mean, it's just not the way you want it to look during the first week of the season, during week 18 or during the championships or Super Bowl. It's not fun football to watch. And I just hope that, you know, that this past Sunday was just a, you know, just a kind of a freak thing that we won't see anything like that, hopefully in our final game.

But it just wasn't fun, period. Mike Pereira, you talked about the Devante Smith where he dropped the ball. And I'll say on the first angle, you could not see that he dropped the ball and then the other angle.

It was clear that he did so. The expedited review is so ambiguous to me. What does New York need to see to just call in and say, guys, we've got to take a look at this? They have to see it immediately that it is clear and obvious that it's wrong. I mean, they have to see it without any question.

They can't they can't stop it because they think it might be. And that's the guidelines for that. They have to clearly see it and look at they got a ton of angles. I mean, we all have a ton of angles with this Hawkeye system. And, you know, it's great that you don't even have to wait for television to show you the angles. You can you know, I don't know how many they had in New York for that game, but they probably have 25 different camera shots coming into the McNally replay center. But still, you have to pick your shots. And when all of a sudden the team's running up the line of scrimmage and you don't see, which turns out to be that one shot that you don't get to that shot in time, then you're dead.

And I feel bad for Kyle Shanahan because he's on the opposite side of the field. And, you know, it looked like catch in real time. And then he's kind of caught a little bit, too, because when does New York expedite a review and when don't they?

So do you hold for a second thinking that, you know, that they're going to they're going to stop it for this expedited review. And then they don't. And then it's too late. I'm kind of in one of those.

And I had this discussion this morning. I'm kind of feeling like it's too tough for a coach. And we either got to do it one way or the other, either leave it to the challenge system or, you know, do like the college system and to be able to stop it when it's a fourth down change of possession play that that that is that significant. Then maybe we should just put that in the hands of a replay official. But I don't think anybody wants to go through that, you know, that type of a play where incomplete pass, it's a turnover on downs, ends up that it was incomplete. You call it a catch and then you go in and score seven points and lead seven nothing. Now, did that affect the outcome of the game? I doubt it with what happened with Purdy. Yeah. Shortly after that.

But still, it's it just doesn't leave a good taste in anybody's mouth. Mike, we appreciate it. Thanks so much for some of the clarity. You got it. I'm Larry Mullins, host of the podcast, Your Weirdest Fears, the show that explores the odd things that make your heart stop. I am so scared of the Grinch. He is bad vibes. We talk to everyone from therapists to exterminators to lizard man. I was twenty five when I actually got my tongue split.

I have one tattoo that covers my entire body. Listen and subscribe on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts from. There's a lot to listen to. So get started and download the free Odyssey app today. The listening you love is on the free Odyssey app, your trusted local radio stations, coverage of your favorite teams, live news from your hometown and millions of podcasts on demand. Best of all, you can completely customize your listening experience. Follow topics you care about, like leagues and teams, pause or rewind your local sports and news and add shows to your queue to catch up later. There's a lot to listen to. So get started and download the free Odyssey app today.