Hi, from the Salvation Army, you're listening to Words of Life. And it could go south very quickly, which is why we have to know what fights we're supposed to enter into.
If you're seeing abuse, you have to say something, if not for your own job, for the protection of those who are going to be coming up behind. That's how we'll shift culture. Welcome back to Words of Life. I'm Bernie Dake. And once again, joined this week by Natalie Runyon. It's good to be back. Natalie, it feels like family.
Yes, we are. Welcome home. We've been talking about your ministry, Raised to Stay, and I'm excited to share with our listeners that on July 4th, 2023, this new book, Raised to Stay, is coming out. And you'll want a copy. In fact, we may have some information about how you can get a free copy right here at Words of Life. Natalie, in the sixth chapter, you write, Don't let your Judas keep you from your Jesus. And I want to unpack that.
That seems like a provocative thought. It was the first chapter of the book I wrote, because it was the closest to me at the time. I mean, this entire ministry started because at 40, I found myself under yet another leader who was unhealthy, spiritual abuse, possibly even church abuse if we really wanted to unpack it. And that's what made me want to quit at 40. I mean, 40 years, I told the Lord, this just feels like a good holy number to tap out.
If I'm going to tap out, 40 years feels like the time to do it. And I just remember all the times that I wanted to quit because of this one person. But every single time, the Lord reminded me that he sat at this table with Judas, you know, at this Lord's supper. And he broke bread with the one he knew was going to betray him. And yet it didn't keep him from doing the thing God had asked him to do, which was go to the cross and save us and get up out of that grave.
And was I actually going to let my abusers keep me from doing the thing I knew God was asking me to do? And the whole scripture rubs me wrong because Judas is sitting there and Jesus tells them all like, one of you is going to betray me. And Judas is like, is it me, Lord? And it's like, shut up.
Yes, it's you. But this is like sitting in a staff meeting. And you're sitting around a table and there's the one person who's the abuser at the table holding their scone and their Starbucks. And everybody thinks everything they do is so great.
And you're over there fuming because you know they're not. And how do we sit in the tension of that on church staff knowing we have an abuser in our midst, knowing we have a betrayer in our midst? Heck, even a Peter having a denier in our midst. And how do we continue on mission without letting those people stop us or make us quit? I feel like there should be a rooster crow somewhere in this episode.
So that'll be something for later when we do the sound design that you will be amazed by when you hear this. I think for me, it's hard to imagine being in that position where you are subject to an authority that you have no respect for. And I want to be careful because we're not trying to out the big C church. We're trying to encourage people that have accepted a call in their life to full-time ministry to give them some resources to deal with these types of things in a godly way, which means loving, but it also means direct.
Absolutely. And I think for a lot of us who grew up in the church, we saw people who were older than us, people who had titles, and we just immediately said they're a spiritual authority. I have to do what they say. But what we forget is that we can be honoring and honest in the kingdom of God. Honoring meaning I'm going to honor my elders. I'm going to honor the leaders that are over me. But I'm also going to be honest when things are happening that are not okay. I'm going to go to people. I'm going to use HR if a church has an HR or an organization has one. I'm going to utilize structures that have been put into place with oversights and bosses and go and say this is not okay.
So I can be honoring and honest at the same time without being dishonoring and causing division within the body. And I think when we don't feel heard, that's where we get gossip and we start getting a lot of the things that we see in the local church now of churches dividing and all of that because somebody has an abusive leader. There's no safe place to be honest. And then we either lose them all together or they go into panic mode. And we see three responses to church abuse and church hurt. We see fight where people will fight. We see the flee, the people who will just run away, the flight. And then we see fawning where abuse victims and hurt victims start to fawn all over their abuser just trying to stay in position and try to earn some sort of respect that is not even biblically correct, try to earn from them. And so you can see how a church environment can quickly become toxic if we don't have healthy leaders in position. And those things take courageous conversations. Absolutely. When you identify something, you've got to do something about it. If we're not participating in correcting the problem, then we're really perpetuating it.
I fly all the time. And how many times over the speakers do they say, if you see something, say something. If you see an abandoned backpack, if you see someone who needs help, like if you see something, say something, the church has to operate in that same way of if you're seeing abuse, you have to say something.
If not for your own job, for the protection of those who are going to be coming up behind. That's how we'll shift culture is not by bashing names, not by trying to take down the patriarchy, whatever we're trying to do, but by just being willing to say, this is not right. Jesus would not be okay with this. And we're not going to treat our people this way. Yeah. Okay, so this is a difficult idea, because a conversation needs to happen there. Something is going to have to change. And you want to be a part of that change.
But you're also nervous because you're going to lose your paycheck, or potentially, this could blow up in a way that you weren't prepared for. How do you respond to that? You know, I'm one voice in this conversation.
And I don't know that there's like a textbook answer to that. I know that some seasons, the Lord will call us to be Esther, and we'll go busting into an office and say, let my people go like this, you know, we'll have our Esther moments or Moses moments, we'll, we'll have the opportunity to be that voice. And then in other times, we have to trust that the Lord's raising up other people to do that as well. And so really, again, this whole idea of discernment, am I willing to start this conversation that may or may not go the way that I think it's going to go? And that was my issue is I knew there was somebody in the place that was not good.
I knew that they were causing problems. But every time I went to report, I was the one that was called divisive. So when I talk about this in the raise to stay family, there are people who would rather quit than contend for healthy culture, because they don't want to be labeled the gossip or divisive. And so when leadership doesn't want to hear it, you have to be able to discern, do I keep fighting for this? Or is it time for me to go find a healthier church environment where I can actually thrive? And so that's going to be case by case. And if you don't have an HR department in your church, which most churches don't, you are going to be dealing with someone who does not have human resource experience. And it could go south very quickly, which is why we have to know what fights we're supposed to enter into.
Yeah. So when it comes to discernment, we kind of have to trust our gut. Trust our gut, trust the Lord, trust wise counsel. I cannot specify the importance of counseling for full time church leaders. And I don't mean counseling by people in your church. I'm talking professional counselors, spiritual directors who have no association with you and your role at the church or leadership.
Where you can go in and say, this is what I'm seeing. What is your advice? What is your counsel?
What's best for my mental health and for my emotional health? Because you guys were not called to die on the altars of the local church. If something is not healthy and it's causing us physical, spiritual, emotional harm, we need to get help and we need to make a decision pretty quickly on whether or not we should stay or we should go. Yeah.
There's a song in there somewhere. Should I stay or should I go now? It's a difficult concept because I think if there's a church leader listening to this episode, they might feel like we're coming for them. But the truth is we're not. We're trying to make the church better. Again, the church is made up of individuals, imperfect human beings.
And if we want to be more like Jesus in this sense, then we've got to discern what would Jesus do in this situation or what would be a godly way to approach this. And if you're going to stay in the fight to make it a better place, you're going to impact change for who knows how many people. We just want to encourage you to consider that as an idea.
It will be a difficult thing to decide when you come to that place and you feel like, okay, I'm going to do this. But Natalie's pointed out, you need to be surrounded by your community and lean in. And that community could be people outside the church and it can be people that are within the church, fellow congregants, fellow staff members.
Man, Natalie, there's so much here, so much. It's really challenging because I was one of those people growing up that was like, don't let all of the world policies and procedures infiltrate the church. But the thing is, is that there are some really good policies and procedures that the world has in place in corporate culture that does protect our pastors, protect our leaders and protect our staff from being hurt unintentionally and intentionally. And so we can't forsake some of those things like HR, like Matthew 18, like having the hard conversations because it looks too much like the world.
It's in place to protect us. If I were to pick up a copy of your book sometime around July 4th this year, what will I get out of it? Should I read this book? I am so proud of this book for number one, because I didn't name names, because let me tell you, it's really hard not to name names. The book is divided into four sections, the hurt, the hard, the hope and the holy.
And here's the deal. We all have stories of being hurt. We all have stories of how hard it has been. But God promises to finish what he starts and he is a God who is after reconciliation and restoration. So the book ends with my own family story, my own mom and dad and my sister and I, where it starts with our church hurt, it ends with the healing. But that healing came 25 years later. And I think the book offers people a glimpse into the reality of ministry but also gives us hope for what Jesus really wants for his bride.
And I leave the reader with a lot more hope than I do the hurt and the hard. So we're in pre-sales now. Where can they find it if they want to buy it? Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Books a Million, Christianbook.com, they're all out right now. And then I also am going to be giving away 12-week courses that will go along with the book for churches who want that. So any churches that want to do bulk orders for Bible studies, small groups, they will also get the 12-week video course and homework assignments.
That is awesome. All right, we're going to jump into this as well. If you are listening to this episode and you are interested in a book, send an email to radio at uss.salvationarmy.org. Mention the episode and the first 25 people that reach out to us will receive a free copy on us just for listening because you're raised to stay. Natalie, thank you so much for joining us again.
There's more to come, so we hope that you'll tune in next week for our guest, Natalie Runyon. The Salvation Army's mission, Doing the Most Good, means helping people with material and spiritual needs. You become a part of this mission every time you give to The Salvation Army. Visit salvationarmyusa.org to offer your support. You can subscribe to Words of Life on your favorite podcast store or visit salvationarmysoundcast.org. Join us next time for The Salvation Army's Words of Life. Thanks so much for listening to Words of Life. We want to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the show. Visit lifeaudio.com where you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They have shows about prayer, Bible studying, parenting, and more. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time. If you'd like to make a habit of spending more time meditating on the truth of God's Word, you can listen to daily devotions with Pastor Jon at lifeaudio.com or on your favorite podcasting app. The Historical Jesus Podcast is the sweeping saga of the life and times of Galilean Jesus of Nazareth, as well as the faith, religion, and church founded to honor and disseminate His acts and teachings. Join me, Mark Vinet, on this fascinating journey through time exploring the many great works of Christian theology, literature, architecture, music, and art inspired by the words and deeds of Jesus Christ.
