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Life audio. Yeah. Hi from the Salvation Army, you're listening to Words of Life. Yeah. These are the words, these are the words of life.
These are the words, these are the words, these are the words of life Welcome back to Words of Life. This is now part two of a three-part conversation we had with our old friend, author, professor, and podcaster, Jason Thacker. In this episode, we continue to have a conversation about technology through the lens of our faith.
Something that really stuck out too when Chris and I had this conversation. I'm picturing a place where we have suicide hotlines that are actually just AI robots talking to people. on one side, you're saying, well, is it better that at least they have someone or something to talk to in the middle of a crisis? Or are we trying to fix the problem the wrong way by A, not Somehow, providing more human support for these people and also. Having Christians and loving people surrounding more people so that they don't get to the point where they're at a crisis at 3 a.m.
And I don't have the answer, but For me, like replacing That human interaction almost outsources what we as Christians should be doing in our communities, like showing up for people. I mean, I guess as a last-minute resort, hey, if that helps, you know, praise God, obviously that's better than the alternative, but I just don't want that to be the default. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but.
Well, I think one of the things that reminds me of there's a quote from an old technology philosopher, which I know most people don't listen to or read or anything like that, but he had a really astute point. He said that we often use technology to fix the problems that technology itself introduced. And so we were just like, oh, more technology. That's what'll fix it. We have a problem with it.
There's some issue going on.
So let's just add more technology. That'll fix it. Kind of reminds me of those old Apple commercials. There's an app for that. Like, oh, you have a problem.
Oh, we've got an app for that. We can fix that. And it's just like, we'll just keep adding more and more and more and more technology. When we may be unintentionally or unknowingly, and I think there's a lot of unintended consequences of technology. There are some intended ones that we should know about at the beginning and the outset, but there's a lot of unintended uses of these technologies, not just from the kind of technology company perspective, even uses.
We're like, oh, this kind of works in a different way than I thought. But it's just like, well, we just add more to it that we see a problem, like, that's a technical problem. We have a technical solution. And I think that sometimes what we do is we rush to see the symptoms. And we treat them as if that's the core problem.
And so we just keep addressing symptoms. And from a medical perspective, that's a really poor way of doing medicine. Just kind of medicating the symptoms and trying to fix the symptoms rather than maybe getting to the root cause. And I think that's where. As Christians, we need to again, part of that slowing down is to say, what's really going on here?
There's something underneath. That's less symptomatic and more kind of fundamental kind of problem that we need to be thinking through and addressing. And again, that doesn't mean we reject all technology like it's always, always bad. But I am quite concerned with the way we just kind of default: well, this is useful.
So we should do it. And so that's the question I think that's really important for us to consider for all people, but especially people of faith. is not just can we do something. But should we? And that should is that question of ethics, by the way.
I mean, ethics is all of life, but really, that question, we can do a lot of things. Especially with technology, we can do a lot, but should we? Is that good for us? And so that's going to require a different set of lenses, a different set of questions. that I think we need to be cultivating.
To ask that question of should we be doing this rather than simply can we? And I think that happens in the technology field. That happens in our own homes, our churches, our communities, arguably, especially in higher education or even secondary education, elementary ed. Is should we be doing this? But that really permeates all of life.
And that's just a kind of perennial question, even outside of the technology stuff, is we can do a lot of things, but should we? And I think that kind of simple understanding will really revolutionize how we approach things with technology, the opportunities, but also many of the challenges before us today. Hey, you're listening to the Salvation Army's Words of Life. We're going to take a quick bad break and we'll be right back. You know, the Bible tells us, I will bless those who bless you.
That's not just a nice sentiment, it's biblical prophecy. and it's a commandment from God, it's a calling, and right now we're called to act. The teachings of the New Testament are deeply intertwined with the Hebrew scriptures. As Christians we are called to honor and respect this shared heritage. The Apostle Paul reminds us in Romans eleven eighteen, Do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
If you do, consider this you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Supporting the people of Israel is more than a belief. It's a biblical mandate. By partnering with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, IFCJ, we can live out this calling together. Just as the fellowship blesses God's children, we know that you will be blessed too.
Learn more about the fellowship and how you can live out your faith, bless Israel, and be blessed in return. Visit ifcj.org today. Again, that's ifcj.org. Be the blessing. Live the word.
Answer the call. Whose role do you think it should be to police the use of some of these technologies? I don't think we're at a place in society where people want to go to an art museum full of AI art, but I'm worried that I'm wrong because I feel like there is a draw to it, mostly because it's new and shiny. But while it's in its new and shiny phase, we're just getting so used to it that it's just going to become commonplace. Yeah, you pick up on a nuance here, and I think we're in a very, very intense AI hype cycle.
I'm not saying we're at the very top of it. I'm not going to say the hype cycle doesn't continue for a while. But I do think we're already starting to see, kind of to use the illustration of kind of some chinks in the armor, where people are going, I don't know about this. Like, this makes me a little uneasy. Or I know everybody keeps rushing down this path, but is this really good for us?
And that's encouraging to me.
Now, it doesn't mean I always agree with the critiques or the criticisms or the kind of points that people are making, but nevertheless, to question things. rather than just kind of again uncritically adopting To answer the question in terms of regulating and things like that, it's really going to take an all-hands-on-deck approach. I think sometimes, especially just politically speaking, not to put on partisan politics by any means. But sometimes we default to, oh, the government will fix this. Or my leaders will fix this, or my job, or the industry itself, this is their problem.
They introduce it, so they need to fix it. And I think that it's going to really take all of us in many ways. These technologies are so ubiquitous, they're so widespread in our society today. that it's going to require a sense of virtue. about the type of people we are and are becoming.
But then also, it's going to take families stepping in and churches stepping in and communities and schools. Government, yes, it's going to have a role in that. The technology industry is going to have to have a role in that. Because I think we often, especially in the technology industry, it's just innovation for innovation's sake. I advise technology companies over the last few years, and I'm like, why are we doing this?
And like, well, this is the benefits. And you're like, but why are you doing this? And it ends up coming well. We can make money on this. And again, profit's not bad.
I wanted, especially for those who are in business, it's like, no, profit's not bad. It's a really bad God, though. And that that we don't make decisions simply on what's profitable. We don't make the decision simply on what's useful or, quote, productive or even arguably efficient. We have to make decisions on a higher grid, and as a Christian, that's going to be ultimately loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
That kind of grid of human dignity, which is why I think that idea when we talk about AI and the questions of what's happening, what's it doing to us. There's some significant questions on what does it mean to be human. that we need to slow down and consider and to say, you know, My value, my dignity, and worth, and that of you and others is not based on what we do. It's not based on what we contribute. It's based on who we are as image bearers of the Almighty God.
And that's going to have some significant bearing on not only how we develop these tools, also how we use these tools, deploy these tools. In our society, to make sure we're upholding human dignity rather than dehumanizing ourselves as we're humanizing these machines. We pray that you're enjoying and being blessed by this conversation. Uh We're gonna take one more ad break and we'll be right back. You know, the Bible tells us, I will bless those who bless you.
That's not just a nice sentiment, it's biblical prophecy. and it's a commandment from God, it's a calling, and right now we're called to act. The teachings of the New Testament are deeply intertwined with the Hebrew scriptures. As Christians, we are called to honor and respect this shared heritage. The Apostle Paul reminds us in Romans 11:18, Do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.
If you do, consider this: you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Supporting the people of Israel is more than a belief. It's a biblical mandate. By partnering with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, IFCJ. we can live out this calling together.
Just as the fellowship blesses God's children, we know that you will be blessed too. Learn more about the fellowship and how you can live out your faith, bless Israel, and be blessed in return. Visit ifcj.org today. Again, that's ifcj.org. Be the blessing.
Live the word. Answer the call. You mentioned the potential of technology to deform us. Just an example, and there are many different examples. You know, I've heard stories of like Preachers like, all right, I need a sermon.
I'm running behind. AI, create a sermon for me. It's useful, but I wonder if using it in that way, we skip, we're bypassing. Like a very important process. And that is like.
Well, what is the Holy Spirit speaking to me? about what I need to say to my congregation or whatever. There's so much to be gained in the process of doing things. You know, in the doing of something. Yeah, and this is true in terms of for pastors and sermon preparation or ministry leaders and you know, working on teaching things, but also as professors.
But also, you think of just elementary school, middle school, high school teachers as well, but especially with students. This is something I'm noticing really prevalent, not only at the college level, but really all levels of education. You know, this year, 2025. This fall is the first time since the release, public release of Chat GPT in 2022, November of 22. These seniors this year.
They have never taken a class without access to something like ChatGPT. And many of my freshmen and even sophomores at this point have never written a paper, even in high school, without the assistance of one of these tools. To think that this is just a neutral tool, I think, is quite naive. Why? Because the process is part of the point.
I have a friend who says the process is the point. I think it's part of the point. You know, I tell my students all the time: you're not writing papers for me. to show me what you know. or just to compile a bunch of information.
You're writing a paper because you're thinking. My goal is not just to transfer a bunch of information to you. You can apply this to pastoral ministry, you can apply this to the education setting as well. True education and true discipleship and true preaching, in some sense, not just pushing more information on people. Technology is really good at that, by the way, just to feed us more and more and more information.
It's not so great at the slowing down, developing the critical thinking skills and the wisdom and virtue needed to be the type of person who can think through these things, to ask the hard questions, to know where to go when you don't have the answer, and type of things. And so it's interesting, I think we often focus on education. At all levels, as just an exercise in information transfer, skill transfer, kind of widget making. Rather than seeing it more in this kind of transformation, this whole person transformation, I tell my students all the time: I care, I do care about the information, it matters. What I care more about is the type of person you're becoming in terms of your thinking, the thought, critical thinking skills, the demeanor, the way you carry yourself, wisdom and maturity.
It reminds me of 1 Corinthians 13, where Paul, he's talking about, you know, when I was a child, I thought like a child, I act like a child, I spoke like a child. But when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. Part of that giving up those childish ways is maturing, is growing in wisdom and stature. And I think what happens sometimes, especially in education, is we try to short circuit in the name of efficiency and convenience the process. the process is actually part of the point.
Why we go through these things is not just to impart more information to people, but to actually see them grow in wisdom and maturity. This is especially true in preaching and pastoral ministry. Where I was taught, at least growing up in the church, That a pastor isn't just feeding his congregation biblical insights and applications, just from the Bible to the congregation. He's actually, he ought to at least, the ministry of the word and prayer. is actually for you to engage the text.
To let the Spirit work on your own heart. And you preach then out of that experience. And so it's deeply personal. What's interesting, when people find out that a message that they heard, especially in the church, there's countless studies of this at this point, when they find out that that was an AI message, AI-generated message, it's so hollow.
Now, it's hollow in the first place, we don't always recognize it. But it's so hollow and impersonal. Why? Because it's not a person-to-person relational connection in making disciples and raising them up in the way they should go. It's just an information transfer.
And you lose something that's so fundamental to education, but something I think is so fundamental to preaching.
Now, does that mean you never can use AI in ministry? I think that that's a little naive too. One of the resources I've been working on recently is a kind of a church guide to artificial intelligence and helping pastors and ministry leaders think through these things to help them to say it's much more than, yeah, use it, it's going to speed up the process. And it's much more than don't use it at all. You never can look at this stuff.
It's like, how do we cultivate wisdom and maturity and use these tools in a proper way, in an ethical way? Let's slow down and be critical thinkers and develop some of that wisdom and maturity that's so needed, especially in a day and age where there's often a very much of a lack of virtue. that we see really throughout our society. We need to do the hard work of cultivating that more. The Salvation Army's mission, doing the most good, means helping people with material and spiritual needs.
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These are the words. These are the words. These are the words of life. Thanks so much for listening to Words of Life. We want to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the show.
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