Question and Answer Program No. 87

We do know that these are the two elements that symbolize the life, death, barrel, resurrection of Jesus. I will tell you this, I'm really glad that the church I went to growing up used Welch's grape juice, because my buddy and I, when we were about seven years old, went backstage after communion one Sunday, and we finished all the cups off. Nobody saw us. We were back there buying the curtain, and I'm glad it was fresh. I'm glad I was not introduced to something that could have really taken a hold of me, even as a young child. Thank you for joining us today on this Friday edition of Wisdom for the Heart. A few years ago, we started doing a question and answer today, and it's really become one of the more popular days that we have here in the ministry. It's an opportunity for you as our listening audience to ask Stephen any question you have about the Bible or the Christian faith for him to answer on the air. Well, today is the day that we're doing that, and so we have several questions for you. Stephen, our first question for you today comes from a listener named Connie.

Hi, my name is Connie. I do have a Bible question. I would like to know, as far as communion, should you have communion with wine instead of grape juice? Thank you.

Thank you so much for calling, Connie. Stephen, how can we help today? Well, if you go back in history, you'll find that even the Jewish people debated, questioned whether or not to use fermented or unfermented juice for their Passover celebration. That question would come into the church as the communion ordinance developed among even evangelicals, even in recent days, going back to the 1800s.

There was one individual, a physician and a dentist. Thomas struggled with the fact that his Methodist Church was using fermented wine in communion, and so he actually developed the method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation, and we know him as Thomas Welch. And I think most of us have had Welch grape juice. That's what we use at my church for communion.

And we use it because we have the choice. Back in Bible days there wasn't any such thing as refrigeration. Grape juice naturally fermented, it was the cleansing of that water, and so they didn't have the choices that we had.

And by the way, let me add here that people who believe that using fermented wine for communion is somehow more holy or more meaningful or more spiritual, I mean, they're missing the point, and they've made an artificial standard that doesn't come from Scripture. Here's what we do know. What we do know is that communion, that cup, was the fruit of the vine.

That's what we know. It doesn't tell us how fermented it was or how fresh it was. It's simply the fruit of the vine.

Why? Because that's the metaphor, the crushing of that grape, the bleeding of that grape, as it were, was the symbol of the blood of Jesus Christ, which is why we are going to drink the fruit of the vine. In fact, the Lord Jesus said in Luke chapter 22, he told his disciples there in the upper room, I'm not going to drink of this fruit of the vine until I drink it new with you in the kingdom. So we know it's going to be fruit of the vine. Just as we know that bread we're going to partake of. It's going to be that wheat seed being planted. It dies, as it were, in obscurity, and then it comes to life and bears fruit.

That's a picture of the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. So we do not have communion with Coca-Cola and Oreo cookies. We will do the fruit of the vine, and we will partake of something related to wheat. You can debate whether it's going to be leavened or unleavened.

You can debate whether it's going to be fermented or unfermented. We do know that these are the two elements that symbolize the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. I will tell you this. I'm really glad that the church I went to growing up used Welch's grape juice, because my buddy and I, when we were about seven years old, went backstage after communion one Sunday, and we finished all the cups off. Nobody saw us.

We were back there behind the curtain, and we knocked it all out. I'm glad it was fresh. I'm glad I was not introduced to something that could have really taken a hold of me, even as a young child. Yeah, thank you, Stephen. I agree.

My sons, this isn't related to the wine or the grape juice part, but my boys once wondered why we didn't have donuts instead of bread, because it's made with wheat. Okay. Well, there you go.

We could argue that. I think the point is, and to our dear friend who called in, if anybody's saying it's got to be wine as opposed to grape juice, they're making that up. They are creating an artificial standard that we're not given in Scripture. We're just simply not told.

What we are told is, this is the fruit of the vine, and that's why we will drink grape juice. Thanks Stephen, and thank you Connie for calling in with your question today. The number that Connie used to call us was 910-808-9384. Here at Wisdom for the Heart, we've set up that Bible question line that you can call anytime to leave your question for Stephen to answer on a future broadcast.

We don't answer that number. That's simply an opportunity for you to record your question so that we can play it later and give Stephen the time to answer. So if you ever have a question about the Bible or the Christian faith, you can call us at 910-808-9384.

Write that down, keep it handy, and call at any time. Stephen, here's your next question for today. Hello, my name is Calvin.

I'm from Virginia. I just have a quick question. I was recently at a church and a pastor was preaching. He said that he wanted to call on the spirit of his former pastor who had died to help him, I guess, preach or to help him further expound on the word or something of that nature. I'm not quite sure why he was calling on the spirit of his former pastor. To validate that, he actually referenced 2 Kings 13, starting in the 20th verse where it's talking about Elisha, a dead man being thrown into the grave of Elisha.

When the dead man fell on his bones, this dead man stood up. He referenced that to say that's valid, that I can actually call on my dead pastor, his spirit to come alive in me. I was kind of looking at that like that doesn't sound right. So I just want to kind of get some clarity on that. Am I right in thinking that doesn't sound right?

Number 2, if you can explain what was happening in 2 Kings 13 when Elisha was somebody, a dead man was put on his body, why didn't he revive and what was going on at that time? Thank you. Well, Stephen? Calvin, let me just tell you to lace up your boots and run. Don't darken the door of that place again. That man is involved in dangerous mysticism, spiritism. In fact, he's actually doing some things that open the door to what the Bible actually condemns. The Bible tells us not to pursue those who've died. We don't pray to them.

We don't want their power. He's completely missing the context of what's happening here in 2 Kings chapter 13. God through his prophets Elijah and Elisha. Remember now, the context here where Baal worship has been overthrown. You have the death of Jezebel's daughter Athaliah. You have the restoration of God's temple under Joash. You've got an important moment in the history of Israel where they need to be reminded of the authenticity of the true prophet of God. But that was never intended to mean that power resided in Elijah or Elisha. They're not the sources of power.

God is. And what that means is if you went out the next day, if somebody did and dug up his bones, they're not going to be able to take those bones, rub them on a dead body and have them come back to life. If I encountered the bones of Elisha, nothing's going to happen to me. I'm not going to feel better. I'm not going to get younger.

I'm not going to grow any hair back. It would be nice if that worked, but that isn't going to work. Here's what God does do. He tells us through this prophet Isaiah, when they say to you, inquire of the mediums and the necromancers, by the way, those are the people in contact with the dead, who chirp and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? In other words, you never call upon the power of a dead person, saint or whomever.

You don't call on them for aid. It doesn't matter how godly they were in life. See, this man is opening the door for you to pray to the saints or you to go after people who died that somehow mystically gained their power. Why call upon a human in the first place when you can approach God the Father directly by the intercession of God the Son through the ministry of God the Holy Spirit? They empower you.

They equip you. They enable you to accomplish what they're calling you to do. So here's the Apostle Paul. I'm going to say this and then we'll quit this question, but here's the Apostle Paul praying. This is what he's praying for, Ephesians chapter 3. For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of Elisha. Oh no, no, no, that's not what he says. That you may be filled with all the fullness of God, that you pursue, you ask for the power of the Spirit of God, that you expect the work of God to be manifest in your life as you preach and as you teach, as you evangelize.

You're not depending on anyone but him. Well thank you Stephen, and thank you so much Kelvin for calling in today. I hope that hearing that answer helped you make a decision regarding what you need to do. The number that Kelvin used to call us was 910-808-9384, and I encourage you to write that down because as you are studying the Bible, as you are listening to teaching, as you're meditating on scripture yourself, from time to time you're going to have questions just like we all do, and we want to help you. If you have a question about the Bible or the Christian faith that Stephen can answer for you on a future broadcast, you can call 910-808-9384.

Leave that question for us and we'll play it later for Stephen to answer. Now if you need to speak with us, we have a different number. The office number here in our Cary, North Carolina offices is 866-48-BIBLE. If there's anything we can do to serve you today, that's the number in the office and that's the phone that we actually answer. That's 866-48-BIBLE, and I hope we hear from you.

My name is Vera, I'm calling from Gathby, South Carolina. I know through the Bible there's things like 7 years and those things and what they mean, but the number 40, like 40 years, 40 days, where does the 40 derive from? What is the meaning of that numeric number?

I would appreciate an answer. Thank you so much and I really enjoy your program. Vera, thank you so much for calling in with that question. Stephen, Vera's question about the number 40 really raises questions about, more questions I think, about codes in the Bible and numerology and the significance of numbers. Yeah, and this goes really back centuries where even rabbis were finding secret messages by laying out, of course, the Old Testament text and then skipping every third or fourth consonant and the creation of words because of that. I think it's very important to understand that when you read a number in the Bible, you're reading a number that should be taken at face value. You know, the reason that we believe in a literal six-day creation is because God very clearly gives us a numeral associated with the word day and so we can take that at face value.

There's no secret hidden code that somehow if we turn it upside down and inside out, we're going to figure out what really, really happened. There may be some significance to numbers. For instance, the number seven is used often and more than likely simply a reflection of completion.

This is the completion of, you know, that creation week. But what we have to be careful of is moving beyond perhaps a symbolic meaning of a number into some sort of mystical meaning, some sort of secret message. This is Gnosticism. This is the belief, going back to the apostles, that there's secret knowledge that if you're bright enough, you can come up with it. And so you look at everything, not literally, historically, grammatically, you have to find some allegorical meaning, some secret, deeper meaning like the guy I heard about recently who found this secret musical scale that's going to bring you spiritual soothing because he turned to a certain page in his Bible and at the bottom of that page it referenced David. And so he used the number of the page to create the scale of music that now can give you the spiritual experience of soothing. You know, there's a Hebrew word that explains that and it's pronounced baloney.

Okay, let me just be really clear. It's made up nonsense. And what it does, Scott, is it takes people into this never-ending abyss of trying to find the real meaning of Scripture outside the meaning of the words of Scripture.

If a number is given significance and you take that at face value, but more than likely it's the period of time that's the significant issue. So our caller, you know, might refer to it rained on the earth for 40 days and 40 nights, Genesis 7-12. Israel wandered for 40 years, Numbers 14. Jesus fasted 40 days, Matthew 4. There isn't anything in the Bible that tells us that there's something significant or some deeper meaning behind 40.

Stephen, let me interrupt you. As you were talking, it reminded me that people today take numbers like this and bring them forward into our context. For example, count back 40 days from Easter and enter into a 40-day period of depriving themselves, looking for some sort of significance in that number.

Yeah, there's a danger in that. It's tradition. It's religion. It's attaching to some number, some mystical experience. And I think it should be avoided personally. I don't think it helps us. It takes us away from the meaning of the text of Scripture.

What does the enemy want to do? He wants us to become confused about what God has said. That was the very first temptation. Has God really said that, Eve?

Is that what he really meant? And I think we have to go back to this inspired text. Let's not be distracted. That keeps us from being deceived. Let's take the words of Scripture, study them, interpret them, take them at face value, understand the context, what it meant to them, and therefore what it might mean to me. There isn't anything about Jesus fasting for 40 days that is now going to impact, perhaps, my diet.

There isn't anything in the Old Testament Torah that gives the diet or the kind of bread that I'm supposed to eat. That's taking this mystical record and finding deeper meaning and then applying it to us, which gets us distracted. And it ultimately takes us away from the Word of God. So had Jesus fasted for 35 days, it would be just as significant. That's right.

Or if it rained for 39 days instead of 40. That's right. All the Bible does is simply record.

This is how long it took. It's not giving us a mystical meaning behind the number 40. So Vera, I think what you want to do is take numbers, as Stephen has said, take numbers at face value unless there's a biblical reason not to.

I hope that was helpful to you. We're so glad that you called. Let me give you that number one more time in case you have a Bible question you'd like to ask. It's 910-808-9384. Jot that down on a piece of paper, maybe stick it in your Bible or wherever it is that you read and study. And if you ever have a question, give us a call at that number and you can record your question for Stephen.

910-808-9384. This is Bruce calling from Chattanooga. In Pastor's series on Revelation, in chapter four, it says that God is described as seated on his throne. Inasmuch as God is spirit, this fact is confusing.

Has he at this point taken on bodily form just as Jesus did? Thank you. Well, Bruce, thank you for calling in with such a fantastic question. Just to give you a little bit of behind the scenes here at Wisdom for the Heart, we actually hit the pause button because we had to talk and think about this for just a little bit. It's a great question, Stephen.

It really is. We know the Scriptures tell us that God is spirit, referring to God the Father. And part of the problem is we then de-emphasize or perhaps even eliminate the idea that God the Father can take on physical form, which he certainly does in Scripture. Often think of that challenging time, if you remember, in 2 Kings chapter 6 where Elisha is surrounded by the enemy army and his servant is shaking in his boots and God just allows this servant's eyes to be opened.

And what happens? Immediately he sees they are surrounded by literal chariots, literal angelic beings, literal horses. There is a spirit world which, if we're able to enter it, we'll find it just as physically tangible as the world we're in now, which means there is a literal throne. There is a literal God the Father that one day we will be able to see as, by the way, God the Spirit. We're not told how.

We're just simply told that we will. We take revelation at face value. There's no reason to doubt that this is indeed a literal throne and the one sitting on it is God the Father, that there is a literal rainbow around the throne, that it really does look like an emerald, and that around that throne are the believers, the elders representing the church. It might be helpful, Bruce, to go to Daniel chapter 7 where Daniel is given a vision of God the Father. Verse 9 says, As I looked, thrones were placed, and the ancient of days took his seat.

His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire. By the way, this is God the Father sitting on this throne because God the Son, a few verses later, comes to him. And by the way, what does God the Son look like in that eternal state? Well, if you go back a page or two in Revelation, it's interesting in chapter 1 that Jesus is described looking much like his Father. The Son of Man, John sees, has a robe reaching to his feet.

He's girded across his chest with a golden sash. His head and his hair were white, like white wool, like snow, and his eyes like flames of fire. Just fascinating to consider that the forms they're taking—and by the way, I think those forms can change. I think God the Father took a form when he walked with Adam in the garden. There was a literal trail. There were literal walks together in fellowship. We're not sure all of what's going to happen of what we're going to see.

Jesus's glorified body could both go through a closed door and yet be touched and embraced and eat a piece of fish without you watching that fish go all the way down into his stomach. Are these literal thrones one day? Absolutely.

Absolutely. We're not given a lot of description. We're given enough to believe that it's real. God the Father seated on a literal throne. God the Son seated at the right hand of the Father could be a separate throne, could be the center throne as a reference to the authority of the triune God. We're not told what form the Spirit of God will take. We'll have communion with him like we can't imagine one day as we fellowship and worship them forever. It's going to be a glorious day when we see God.

So, here's what we'll say. We don't have all the answers, but we have no reason to doubt the literal interpretation of the book of Revelation's vision of a literal throne and God the Father seated upon it. Stephen, when we talk about the fact that God is a spirit, I think it's easy to think of some sort of a wispy, vapor-type thing without substance.

Yeah. Would invisible be a good synonym for spirit? God exists literally just in a way that we can't see?

I think we can't see that now, but he isn't Casper, you know, the friendly ghost. I think we think of the Holy Ghost that way. When we talk about the spirit world, in a way, we're referring to a world we can't see. It's a spiritual existence. However, I think we've de-emphasized the physical nature of the spirit world, and I know that may sound confusing, but we sort of de-emphasized that we're going to have a Lord and Savior we shall hug and embrace and fall at his feet.

His body has wounds. A God the Father who, as Daniel saw him, has hair like pure wool, a throne on fire. That's just amazing. That's real.

That's real. So let's make sure when we say it's a spirit or a spirit world that we're not removing the idea that one day when we're there, we're going to see it as real and physically tangible as you and I are looking at each other today. So Stephen, this is really important then because it protects us from the false idea that God is some sort of a force or an energy. Right. Sort of the Buddhism's view of the supernatural that it's just energy. Cosmic energy. Like Star Wars religion. There you go.

Absolutely. When we say God is spirit, we're also saying that he's unlike anything else in creation. He is superior to our material existence. You might say, as one theologian did, that God is pure being or the fullness of being, but we are saying he is a being. He isn't force or energy, cosmic consciousness.

We want to stay away from that. He is a person. A person we shall one day see. And we'll be uninhibited, by the way, like Moses, who could only see the hinderer part of his glory.

And even that caused his face to glow. Imagine one day we'll see him in all his glory. Amen. Thank you, Stephen. And Bruce, we're really glad that you called in with that fantastic question today. We were glad to hear from you. Well, we're so glad that you joined us today here on Wisdom for the Heart.

If you joined us late, you were listening to our Bible teacher, Stephen Davey answer some questions that have come in from our listening audience. We'd like to hear from you if there's any way that we can serve you today. Our number here in the office is 866-48-BIBLE.

That's 866-482-4253. We're in the office each weekday from 830 a.m. to 430 p.m. and we'd love to hear from you. We have several listeners who enjoy writing to us and if you'd like to send us a card or letter, we'd be grateful to receive that. We'd love to hear how God's using this ministry to bless and encourage you. Our address is Wisdom for the Heart, PO Box 37297, Raleigh, North Carolina, 27627. Thanks for joining us and please be with us Monday for more Wisdom for the Heart.