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January 6, 2020 4:18 pm
Is it one-on-one for teams is a valuable resource for anyone wanting a simplified view of the Mormon religion from a Christian perspective is one-on-one for teens is available at the Utah lighthouse bookstore in Salt Lake City or MRM.org is examined the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcome to this additional viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Eric Johnson.
My colleague at MRM we continue looking at a conference message given by Dell and H. Oaks, of the first presidency.
It was titled trust in the Lord is speaking about speculation that some Latter Day Saints have regarding the spirit world and even what life will be like in eternity.
More specifically, it had to do with some questions that were raised by a woman who was concerned about her relationship with her husband who was sealed to two women. She was wondering why my going to live with my husband and his first wife or am I going to have a separate dwelling place in such basically what Dallen Oaks tells this woman is just trust in the Lord.
Just trust the Lord. Della Noakes goes on in this talk that he gives to talk about the fact that Mormons are not supposed to procrastinate their repentance during mortality advance. We ended the show yesterday. He cites Elma 1327. My question is why didn't he cite Elma 34. We've cited Elma 34 on the show so many times that I'm even going to apologize to our listeners again because we need to make a reference to this in order to understand the context but what Dallen Oaks says is this, and although we are urged not to procrastinate our repentance during mortality. See Elma 1327. We are taught that some repentance is possible there. See doctrine and covenants one 3858 while Bill, if I were to hear this talk, and I was in the audience. I'm going to think, boy, that's really good news because I do have a chance to be able to repent.
In the next life. Even though throughout this conference, the, the term of keeping your covenants was used more than once, including the one right before Oaks talk by Dell rental and so I it's interesting what people are hearing him say, but what does the passage really mean is a completely different manner and I think that's the problem. I thought it was really unfair of Dallen Oaks to just kind of throw that out as chum and knowing that people would gravitate on his phrase, but not really understanding perhaps what he was referring to. Yes, the doctrine and covenants in section 138 does talk about repentance is possible. There, but does the context really referred to Latter Day Saints who were not living up to their covenants have not fully repented of all their sins, or perhaps are not keeping all the commandments I don't think that's what it's talking about. So when we look at section 1 3858 we get better understanding of what this verse is saying.
It says the dead who repent will be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. But let's look at what it says.
Prior to that it says in verse 57. I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation when they depart from mortal life continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel. That's what Dallen Oaks referred to in this particular paragraph when he cites first Peter 319. First Peter 319 says nothing of the sort. It's from this passage where he gets that idea that they are going to be faithful spirits who were going to teach the gospel to those who have been wicked.
But let's go on. I beheld the faithful elders of this dispensation when they depart from mortal life continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption through the sacrifice of the only begotten son of God among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.
Do you think most of the Latter Day Saints hearing what Dallen Oaks says here, and may have thought they could find comfort in the fact that there's a possible repentance in the next life, not realizing the only way that's going to happen is if you fall under the category that you are in darkness and under the bondage of sin and the great world of the spirits of the dead. I don't know of any faithful latter-day St. that wants to be categorized that way.
This is one of those things were something is thrown out and no context is given, and we see this a lot with latter-day St. leaders from general conference pulpits and Amy have a guy named Jeffrey Hollen who says that you get credit for trying. He said that a few years ago. Well a lot of Latter Day Saints have taken and run with it. Thinking as long as I'm trying I'm getting credit and so I don't have to keep all the commandments as it says in D&C 2515. What when Della Noakes says that although we are urged not to procrastinate our repentance is is that really the proper way to describe it as it is in Elma 34 your merely urged it sounds like you're commanded that you better not request in the day of your repentance. First of all it starts off in verse 32. Same this life is the time for men to prepare me God does it not, is what it says, verse 32 and following. For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. Yay.
Behold, the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors. And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses. Therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity. Behold if we do not improve our time while in this life.
Then, the night of darkness where there can be no labor performed, ye cannot say when you're brought to that awful crisis that I will repent that I will return to my God, nay you cannot say this for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that you go out of this life. That same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if he had procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death. Behold, you have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you and the devil hath all power over you and this is the final state of the wicked and again to our regular listeners. I apologize because we have cited these passages on numerous occasions, but you can see why it is so important that these verses from the book of Mormon are true when Della Noakes says oh yeah there is some repentance possible. After you die a dozen silicates talking about for Latter Day Saints especially. It doesn't seem to imply that somehow a Latter Day Saints who doesn't live up to their covenants or keep the commandments or repent of all their sins is going to receive celestial exultation bill.
What does a commentary on the doctrine and covenants say about this.
Well here's what it says in doctrine and covenants student manual religion 324 and 325 and I'm siding from page 359. It has a section for section 138 versus 33 and 34 and then it says, from 58 to 59. So that's exactly what were talking about here. Here's the subheading, various ordinance work alone does not guarantee salvation for those in the spirit world.
The principles of faith and repentance are taught in the spirit world departed spirits are also taught all other principles of the gospel that they need in order to qualify themselves in qualifies in italics in order to qualify themselves to be judged after the manner of men in the flesh, they will be judged based on how they respond to God's word.
If they did not have the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but they repent and conform to God's laws when taught them in the spirit world. They will benefit from the bi-curious ordinances performed by mortals in their behalf.
Otherwise, vicarious ordinances will not help them.
You might say what the sounds a bit confusing in light of what Eric just read no labor can be performed after you die.
This seems to be implying that some kind of labor some kind of work some kind of behavior has to be shown in order to get the benefits of that vicarious baptism, but it seems like in the context and what it's saying there is that you have not heard the gospel and yet who is the audience that he's talking to 20,000 people it at the conference center in Salt Lake City are probably not in that category.
Neither are most of the people at the different wards and stake centers across the world who are listening to it as they have had the opportunity to hear the gospel and yet they're not keeping their covenants there not doing everything that they were commanded to do. I think you're absolutely right, Eric. The people who were hearing Della Noakes say this either sitting in that conference personally or listening to it on television. Don't qualify in order to repent at least certainly not to get into the celestial kingdom. Mormon leaders have made that clear. More than one have made that clear. Let me just very quickly show you what Joseph Fielding Smith said he was the 10th prison the Mormon church that second chance leads to terrestrial kingdom. 12 Pres. Spencer W. Kimball says Luke warm Saints get terrestrial glory. The terrestrial kingdom will not be enjoyed by the very wicked, for they shall obtain only that celestial. Neither will the terrestrial be given to the valiant.
He was on to say, but unto the terrestrial will go. Those who do not measure up to the celestial seed that would be your lukewarm Latter Day Saints who didn't take this mortality seriously enough to get everything in order before they died. But here's the problem.
We don't see this second chance opportunity as many people seem to assume I'll give you an example. I just recently helped a Christian who sent me some statements made by a Mormon acquaintance that he had and one of the verses that he asked this Mormon acquaintance about was D&C 2515, keep my commandments continually in the crown of righteousness, thou shalt receive and accept thou do this where I am, you cannot come this Latter Day Saints responded to this Christian by saying that this is like Moron eyes admonition referring to Moron I 1030 to aim for the top. He said there's no point in urging us to quote keep my commandments. Most of the time."
And I would agree it's not implying only keeping the commandments. Most of the time, but that's the problem who's doing it. All of the time. He said I like in the Scripture two Nephi saying that no unclean thing can dwell with God per Mormon doctrine, this individual says it's not over. When we leave this life there's still time to prepare to meet God. Time to learn to keep the commandments continually. Is that what you just read in Elma 34 Eric, here's the danger. Words have meaning and Oakes is a lawyer. He understands this, he throw something out. The idea that this is something that's going to appease some of the people without doing further research but if he's wrong that there's not a second chance as it, sir. Seems like with the Scriptures that are being quoted are St. then this could lead the person that you're talking about here to falsely assume that he has a second chance to be able to finish this work when the LDS Scripture certainly say that's not the case. Mormon leaders have made that clear.
Let me very quickly just give you a statement by Bruce R. McConkie in the seven deadly heresy speech. He said those who reject the gospel in this life, and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom. In other words, if you had an opportunity to make yourself right in this life. Don't expect to go to the celestial kingdom if you haven't been living up to all of the standards. Thank you for listening. If you would like more information regarding his research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website at www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter research.
We hope you join us again as we look at another viewpoint is