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March 17, 2020 9:49 pm
.1 Mormonism examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect.
And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism. Baptism is one of the most without a person cannot enter into the celestial kingdom because it is essential for eternal life and the fact that many people and died without having the opportunity to have been baptized presents a major problem. Latter Day Saints has sought to overcome this problem. The doctrine of baptism. According to this doctrine and those who have already died and have baptisms performed on their behalf by living Latter Day Saints Mormons pointer first Corinthians 1529, is the biblical proof text for this practice. What does the apostle Paul actually mean in this passage.
The voice you just heard is that of Rich Sanford.
He and Bradley Campbell have worked together to produce several videos under the title of God loves more. In fact, if you want to see their entire list of videos that they have produced on the subject.
Go to God loves more and's.com Rich Bradley, I want to welcome you back to the show yesterday. We kind of allowed you to give a bit of an introduction of what brought you out to Utah and I'm sure a lot of listeners if they've seen your videos would be amazed at where you've come from on the subject of Mormonism because you said when you came to Utah you really didn't have a an understanding of either LBS history or LDS doctrine. As I mentioned, you are certainly quick learners when it comes to this topic and use produce some some excellent videos.
The clip that we played at the beginning of the show is from a video that you did on the subject of baptism for the dead, that is certainly a unique teaching of Mormonism, one that they get from first Corinthians 15 without pulling the rest of the video wanted to talk about why did you want to do this particular topic and what is included in the video that might entice people to go your site and check it out for themselves. Well when it comes to us choosing the videos we try to put videos together around the topics that are common conversation points when Christians talk Mormons and this is one of those that is more common. One especially because it's it's not drawing upon a book of Mormon references that you join a Bible reference. So, my goodness. I must've read do that 20 times before moving Utah never really thought much about it but out here. Christians are asking that question all the time like my Mormon neighbor thinks this may point this verse in the Bible. I don't know how to deal with it. We had people coming out of Mormonism saying listen don't believe the LDS church anymore, but I have some verses like this and is trying to figure out what we do with this and so we talked about Stone the street about this in street evangelism. Talk with Mormon missionaries back and forth about this thing and we started to learn what really happens in a conversation and and try to preempt the script that Mormon might have for this kind of topic that they would say that we need to do that is for the well, let's get right into it. I haven't have in front of me of Joseph Smith translation and of course we've often mentioned on the show that the word translation is always in quotation marks when we mentioned this book that's also known as the inspired version and many of the verses in the Joseph Smith translation read very similar to what we find in the King James because that's what Joseph Smith had to work with.
He merely opens up King James Bible and start making alterations where he saw fit. First Corinthians 1529. Let me read it from the Joseph Smith translation.
If you are familiar with King James version. It's going to sound very similar else what shall they do, which are baptized for the dead.
If the dead rise not at all. Why are they been baptized for the dead Bradley if Latter Day Saints brought that verse up to you. How would you address that verse yet I think about this, in cut two categories when responding to people about this issue, one is textually just look at that chapter. Look at what that chapter saying and see if we can kind of get clues about what that might be meeting into is kind of the rest of the testimony of Scripture does it allow for the category of something like baptism for the debt as of the first one that we would deal with is the text itself. So if you look at first contents 15 and you just kind of trace through the logic of what the apostle Paul is saying.
The apostle Paul is talking about two categories of people he's talking about the genuine Christian who categorically believes in resurrection and he all the time refers to this Great text that we you uses these kinds of pronouns that at a group that he is writing to.
They have the gospel there genuine believers and if you just read first Corinthian's 15 you find that he switches pronouns once he gets to first contents 1529. Instead of saying we white.
Why do we baptize people for the dead. He says why do they why do people baptized for the debt that is not talking about the group of Christians in Corinth. It's talking about a separate group.
I think it's working up a group of people who do not believe in resurrection at all. What Paul is saying is, why would these people who deny the resurrection.
Do something like baptism for the debt. That doesn't seem to make sense at all.
If there is no resurrection than what they're doing on behalf of the debt is utterly meaningless to the Mormon assumption about this passage is that it is telling us of a time in Christian history than the time of the writing of the New Testament were Christians were baptizing people for the dead, and that practice was lost but presumably during the great apostasy and even just by the text itself. We don't see that Paul is saying this is a practice that Christians they are doing. He's actually admonishing people in the passage itself he's telling them about this practice that it wouldn't even make sense for that practice to be taking place unless you considered resurrection. The people had a kind of innate sense that there was something that happened after we died.
It's important to note that there is no command here to baptism for the dead. He's not saying.
So now you to be baptized for the dead. He's also not clearly identifying Christians as the one performing the baptisms for the dead and those to put it there really significant when we talk about the thing that Bailey's greater point in the context verse is important to note that while the Corinthian church is under judgment, a handful at times there are several places that Paul specifically says I commend you in this there is there are some things you guys do have you know that are important when he gets to the beginning of first contents 15.
He even lays out the gospel. This is what we have believed, and he shares the gospel which includes critically the resurrection of Jesus from the dead you can't be a Christian.
Apart from that, and so that's the point of this text, all chapter 15 is to highlight the significance of the resurrection of Jesus, that if a person were to deny that they would be essentially denying the Christian faith. All of our basis for believing in all, but I think it largely to that question. The answer is a context issue. He's not giving us a list of practices we ought to perform but a belief that we should hold a belief namely in the resurrection of Jesus.
Will Bradley brought up the fact that the word day. King James Joseph Smith translation is certainly used here and I think that is a major point, that probably we should focus on because in the doctrine and covenants, which, of course, Mormons believed to be Scripture that talks about baptism for the dead being the most glorious subject pertaining to the everlasting gospel. You would think that if baptism for the dead was in fact the most glorious subject pertaining to the everlasting gospel. This Joseph Smith says that Paul would've included himself and included the Christian church and that practice and we to see you. Yeah this without a doubt into say they this is why we should write. I think that's a significant argument that should probably be raised when were talking with her Mormon friends on the subject. We got the app, asked the question as well. Okay, we have this verse in first Corinthians 15 and if it is what the Latter Day Saints say it is well we don't really have a whole Lotta history as far as this being done in the temple. We have to also ask how would the ancient neophytes have taken this practice and I think that's an important point to make because the book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth that a man could get near to God by divine fullness of the everlasting gospel. So if you have the book of Mormon. What verse would you use to help support this.
In fact, instead of supporting this doctrine of baptism for the dead, that somehow there's going to be the second chance we have versus such as, chapter 3432 and following very clearly says that this is your life to be able to make that choice and there is no second chance.
I think that is a good point because if in fact the book of Mormon does contain the fullness of the gospel as Joseph Smith and others have made very clear, according to their worldview.
Why do we not see the neophytes if they really existed never even mentioning this practice. There is an additional component that just muddies us up even worse baptism for the dead, according to Mormon Mormon teaching today can only be done in the temple. The assumption by many Mormons on the street. Maybe not a Mormon apologies, walked on this road a bit.
The assumption of the Mormons that we talk to street level believe that this was a practice done in the temple.
They don't know that women were never permitted in non-Levites were never permitted in only the Maronites themselves connection go all the way into the temple itself and the baptism was not even inside the temple. They would even called doubt. But that the basin for washing wasn't in sight. So some of the practical things that would be necessary for the Mormon view to even be close to true, are not only omitted but specifically prohibited in the Bible. Okay.
Once you've gone through the day and all that. Where do you think you would go next on this passage I think immediately about that the very nature of salvation and eternal life. There's a lot of errors that compound this, the applicant walk through a number of things. But the point is Jesus when he spoke he talked about eternal life as something that we have secure now or we don't have. There's not this kind of expectation that we can die and then earn something after that. I'm thinking about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
The rich man was a wicked man, Lazarus was was a beggar when they're both after they died or separated by this giant chasm, and the rich man asks us to just touch the tip of your finger water to my tongue and Abraham responds no and the rich man wants to come across the chasm, but sees that he cannot go across that chasm. I think that story is really insightful into how Jesus was thinking about the nature of eternal life, and life after death. If baptism for the dead was a practice that allowed people after death to, as it were, across the chasm into paradise. That would be utterly meaningless. The rich man can no longer affect his eternal destiny. He is stranded where he is and so he's not able to cross and no amount of works that he can do or another can do will allow him to get across to me. The thing that I think is the most wicked about the baptism for the dead view of Mormonism. The thing that is just utterly unthinkable to me is not only to Christians not know precisely what that passage was referring to, and we are very slow to build major doctrines on questionable passages, which is actually exactly the opposite of what false prophets to grab the questionable what is that mean passages in the build giant critical doctrines on, but to us. We know that every person will be judged at privilege 20 motels judged according to his own works. Romans chapter 2 will see a similar think that the hearer here is the word or justify but the doers. The problem with baptism for that. As I see it as it relates to the gospel and this is where we try to get to in conversation with people is that the baptism for the dead doctrine claims that the atonement of Jesus is not enough and not only that but the missing piece can be provided by any random sinful Latter Day Saints who gets baptized on the person's behalf, which means that the blood of Jesus is not sufficient, but what needs to be added to it is the water off the body of a sinner. In order for them to be saved. We been talking to Rich Sanford and Bradley Campbell. They have produced a number of excellent videos dealing with the topic of Mormonism.
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