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April 15, 2020 8:14 pm
Point is to examine the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints viewpoint when Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect.
And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism. What did Pres. Harold B. Lee have to say about obedience welcome to this edition of viewpoint on Mormonism.
I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director of Mormonism research ministry and with me today is Eric Johnson.
My colleague at MRM we been going through several books that were given away as Christmas gifts by the first presidency between the years 1981 in 2017 and for the past couple of days we been kinda taken it topical and were still looking at the topic of obedience and today were going to focus primarily on a book that was given away as a Christmas gift by the first presidency to other general authorities and some employees of the church titled stand ye in holy places selected sermons and writings of Pres. Harold B. Lee. Now I might mention that this book, like other books that they gave away our specially bound books books that you could buy.
You can find them use. You can even find them. Still, some of them are still being printed. To this day.
This book happens to be a replica of what came out years ago, but this one was given away as a gift in 1995. Let's start by looking at what Harold Bewley had to say on page 126 of this book stand ye in holy places. He wrote it was John who said that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world in Revelation 13 eight.
Or in other words, Jesus was prepared for an atonement. His sacrifice was to be made as a ransom for all of those who would obey him and keep his commandments. When you read that Eric.
We know that in Mormonism the definitely do not like anything that's Max of Calvinism as they would say. And of course one of the five points of Calvinism would be limited atonement.
Mormonism certainly does not like that. It is a controversial subject. Even within Christian circles, but notice what he says here and tell me if this doesn't sound a little bit like how limited atonement is described. His sacrifice was to be made as a ransom for all those who would obey him and keep his commandments.
Now, can we assume from this sentence that if it's true, as Harold Bewley is stating that his sacrifice was not made as a ransom for those who did not or would not obey him or keep his commandments. Sounds like it to me and yet I doubt if very many Mormons would like my interpretation of that but I'm just going by the sentence structure that Harold Beasley has given us. On page 126. Then on page 185. He says this the miracle of forgiveness is available to all of those who turn from their evil doings in return no more, because the Lord has said in a revelation to us in our days quote, go your ways, and sin no more, but onto that soul who Senate and then he has in brackets, meaning again. Shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God" nesting doctrine and covenants section 82, seven have that in mind, all of you who may be troubled with a burden of sin, though I really like using D&C 82.
Seven. When I'm doing evangelism because a lot of Latter Day Saints don't realize that there their sins don't go away. They think they might be forgiven but it's like it's in storage and when you sent again that same sin, then D&C 82, seven says your former sins will return and I think Carol Bailey does a really good job of explaining what I think that verse does say when he says all of you who may be troubled with the burden of sin. I think they might even be more troubled.
After reading what he just says I was just about to say that I'm glad you beat me to it because it doesn't sound like it's very comforting.
It's almost like it's been said as a threat have that in mind, all of you who may be troubled with the burden of sin. In other words, you better get over that burden of sin, you better get over these things that are keeping you from celestial exultation and do what you're supposed to do. Do not go back to your former sins because if you do, you're still going to be held accountable for those sins as he cites him as D&C 82, seven, go your ways, and sin no more, but into that soul who Senate shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God, let me ask you folks. Does that sound like good news is that comfort you, knowing that if Mormonism is true if your Latter Day Saints. If your faith is true in doctrine and covenants section 82 verse seven is a truism that means that if you go your ways, and you sin no more.
Your fine but into that soul who said if and as Harold B. Lee has put in brackets, as you duly noted, meaning again. Shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.
Sorry Eric, but that just does not sound like good news to me. It is not in the last three quotes. We want to deal with. I think are all related coming from the same book again stand ye in holy places.
The first one ran talk about is from page 242. This is what he says all we have to do. I like that because all we have to do sound so simple. All we have to do in order to be prepared to enter the presence of the Lord is to forsake our sins come on to him: his name obey his voice and keep his commandments. Then we shall be able to see his face and know that he has noticed billets all upfront. You have to do all of these things then you get to see his face and know that he is and I meant to say he is very consistent. I think with what LDS unique Scriptures are saying the same thing you have to do the work and then you will have the opportunity that if you do everything to see his face but all we have to do is a lot more than I think people can actually accomplish. I think you're right. And that seems to go right along with what we discussed earlier in the week when we were citing from doctrine and covenants section 93. It also says basically the same thing that if you're going to see God you have to do all these things, which again goes against what we read yesterday when it comes to this idea of Mormonism somehow not being exclusive or that there is no damnation in Mormonism there most certainly is. Though they may even define that word differently than the way we understand it, according to the Bible on page 246.
He cites second Nephi 25, 23, a verse that we have talked about a lot on the show and this is what second Nephi 2523 says for we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brother into believing Christ and be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by grace that we are saved.
After all we can do and then the rights the Savior's blood. His atonement will save us, but only after all we can to save ourselves by keeping his commandments. All of the principles of the gospel are principles of promise, by which the plans of the Almighty are unfolded to us who believe the 11th president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints seems to be understanding second Nephi 25, 23, in a very traditional manner. He's not trying to say that that means only, in spite of all you can do.
He makes it very clear, but only after we have done all we can do to save ourselves by keeping his commandments. How many evangelicals Eric do you think would say anything close to this idea that we save ourselves. If there's one thing we as a evangelicals understand we can. Not at all save ourselves to even implies something like that is anathema to what we believe regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The new testament gospel. It's not as easy as he's making it out to be a listener. This citation. This found on pages 366 and 367. When you think about it.
There is so much promise in the gospel for so little required on our part. For example, the ordinance of baptism is given us for the remission of sins for entrance into the kingdom. A new birth, the gift of the Holy Ghost gives us the right to companionship with one of the Godhead administration to the sick qualifies the individual with faith for a special blessing by paying our tithing. The windows of heaven may be opened on to us by fasting and by paying our fast offerings. We are told that we might call on the Lord and he will hear our cry in our call celestial marriage promises us that family life will exist beyond the grave. But all of these blessings are ours on one condition. And this is spoken of by Nephi when he said, and then again he cites second Nephi 25, 23, and again, it does not sound like Harold B. Lee is using second Nephi 2523 in the way that somehow this implies that it means, in spite of all we can do. The only way you get the benefits of that is after you've done certain things but you know what I caught out of this. Eric as you were reading that when he talks about fasting and pain are fast offerings.
We are told that when we might call on the Lord. We are told that then we might call on the Lord and he will hear our cry and our call really got a pay God in order for him to hear my cry, and hear my call. It sounds like you gotta pay an admission in order get the attention of the Mormon God is and what we believe is evangelicals that if you haven't been able to pay up that God doesn't hear you any longer. His first sentence of excitation just floors me Bill when you think about it. There is so much promise in the gospel for so little required on our part and as you mentioned earlier Bill. There are Latter Day Saints who do listen the show. We know that for a fact if your Latter Day Saints and you're wondering how much do I have to do according to Harold B. Lee is very little, and yet he just went through a whole litany of things that you have to do in order to get that and then he cites you.
Second Nephi 25, 23 which says that you have to do all you can do in order to obtain the grace so much of Mormonism is an if then statement if you do it, then it's not then and then if later at its doesn't go backwards. It is something that is required for every individual who hopes to receive exultation they have to do it all and so I don't think that is so little required and if there's anything that we learn from the statements that we have rented today from standing in holy places. It is that there are things that you must do, and only after you do them. Can you hope to receive that grace. That is so very important, even for the Latter Day Saints clinic closed today show I just thinking all of you who help support this effort and if you would like to help support this radio ministry. We have a special going on right now if you go to our website, MRM.org and hit the donate button that'll take you to PayPal.
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