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Harold B. Lee and Forgiveness Part 4

Viewpoint on Mormonism / Bill McKeever
The Truth Network Radio
October 13, 2021 9:44 pm

Harold B. Lee and Forgiveness Part 4

Viewpoint on Mormonism / Bill McKeever

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October 13, 2021 9:44 pm

Bill and Eric take a closer look at the book written by President Harold B. Lee titled Stand Ye in Holy Places and discuss what Lee said about forgiveness. What he wrote might surprise you…or maybe not.

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Give your own words a collection of Mormon quotations compiled by women as research ministries Bill McKeever is a valuable resource when wanting to know what Mormon leaders are set on a given topic and pick up your copy you Utah lighthouse bookstore or MRM.org viewpoint on Mormonism. The program that examines the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a biblical perspective viewpoint on Mormonism is sponsored by Mormonism research ministries since 1979 is a research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism welcome to this edition of the viewpoint on Mormonism.

I'm your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM were looking at the book titled stand ye in holy places. It was written by the 11th president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. A man by the name of Harold B. Lee we've been looking primarily at page 184 and 185 and we began this series by talking about a story that Harold B. Lee tells on page 184, when he and his second counselor Marion G.

Romney were talking with a man who came into his office admitting that he had made some mistakes in the past had gone to his Bishop and the stake president and he had made a clean disclosure of all these mistakes to them and after a period of repentance and assurance that he would not return again to those mistakes.

They have now judged him ready to go to the temple and of course we made mention that this seems awfully strange when the temple in the Old Testament was basically a place you were encouraged to go to if you were to repent of your sins and to offer sacrifice on behalf of your sin so withholding an individual who is repentant from going to the temple seems awfully strange, especially in an Old Testament context, but not so much in the context of Mormonism because even though they claim that there temple worship is a restoration of things done anciently. This alone shows that that's not true.

I can't imagine any rabbi discouraging a faithful Jew from going to the temple, who is repentant of his sins that just makes no sense. But what really catches our attention is on page 185 where the question is asked by Harold Lee Lee. How would you answer one who might come to you asking that question. Of course the question that's being asked is how can this individual who is now allowed to go back into a Mormon Temple have the assurance that the Lord has forgiven him, and that's what the man said. He says brethren going to the temples, not enough. I want to know and how can I know that the Lord has forgiven me also then becomes the question by Harold Bewley. What would you answer one whom I come to you asking that question. He responds by citing Mosiah four versus two through three and I think we need to read what he has Eric on page 185 because he uses ellipses and his response is quite telling and they all cried aloud with one voice saying, oh, have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ, that we may receive forgiveness of our sins and our hearts may be purified after they had spoken these words, the spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins and having peace of conscience and after's. Citing those two verses from Mosiah chapter 4 in the book of Mormon here will be Lisa's. There was the answer and as we been talking about this week. Can you imagine Eric if we were to respond to a Latter Day Saints and say merely what he has in that little section from Mosiah chapter 4. Do you think a latter-day St. would say that's the answer I don't think they would and I don't think even Harold B.

Lee believes that because earlier in his book if you go back to page 52. He cites doctrine and covenants section 76 versus 51 to 53. What is he saying there they are they who receive the testimony of Jesus and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial that by keeping the commandments. They might be washed and cleansed from all their sins and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands, and who overcome by faith and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise which the father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

That sounds very similar to section 1 verse 32 that I read earlier this week from the doctrine and covenants where it says, nevertheless, he that repentance and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven, but if you look at what he cites from Mosiah chapter 4 verses two through three Whittlesey all the stipulations we see merely a group of people asking for baptism as he says on page 185 and they said they viewed themselves in their carnal state. They cry aloud wanting mercy and the application of the atoning blood of Christ that they can receive the forgiveness of sins, and they get it immediately. And as we cited earlier this week from Spencer W.

Kimball. He said you don't get forgiveness just for the asking, but it certainly seems like this group of people mentioned in Mosiah chapter 4 in the book of Mormon.

They seem to get it for the asking. And they get it immediately without doing anything more than mere asking. But then, on page 52 is Eric just read, we see that he cites section 76.

So why did he say Mosiah chapter 4 verses two through three was the answer. It's really not the answer.

In fact, on page 52 he talks about being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and he goes down on page 52 to say by the laying on of hands we get the promise of power and authority, but it will not be ours worlds without end.

Unless we keep our part of the covenant well the covenant is what a covenant is a promise that is made not only when you were baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but you also make a similar covenant when you go through the temple that you're going to do certain works, you're going to keep the commandments.

That's how you get the forgiveness of sins.

It's been like into an exchange. God will do his part, but you must do your part so that's what the covenant is referring to. So it's not a free gift.

It's something that you're going to have to pay for. I think what really bothers me about this error is when he says right after citing Mosiah 4233, there was the answer. If a latter-day St. came to me and said that's the answer in order to get the forgiveness of sins. My knowledge of Mormonism would tell me no, that's not the complete picture felt Mr. Lee could've cited all of chapter 4 if you wanted to, because if you read Mosiah chapter 4 and you go on.

It does talk about forsaking Santa does talk about keeping commandments and things like that but he chose not to include that in this small section he uses ellipses which is fine you can do that but don't leave things out that tend to contradict what you're saying about that citation. That is where I think he should be faulted when he says, there was the answer, what is he go on to say on that very same page showing that that's not the answer.

If the time comes when you have done all that you can to repent of your sins, whoever you are, wherever you are and made amends and restitution to the best of your ability. If it be something that will affect your standing in the church and you have gone to the proper authorities. Then you will want that confirming answer as to whether or not the Lord has accepted a view in your soul searching. If you seek for and you find that piece of conscience by that token, you may know that the Lord has accepted of your repentance.

Satan would have you think otherwise, and sometimes persuade you that now, having made one mistake you might go on and on with no turning back. That is one of the great falsehoods. The miracle of forgiveness is available to all of those who turn from their evil doings and return no more, because the Lord has said in the revelation to us in our days quote, go your ways, and sin no more, but onto that soul who sent a thin, then he has in brackets meeting again.

Shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." D&C 82 verse seven have that in mind, all of you who may be troubled with the burden of sin. The almost 1 or did he say that last line is a joke. If I'm troubled with the burden of sin. That's like and help me where it says in section 82 verse seven that go your ways, and sin no more, but onto that soul who Senate and even says meaning again. Shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God now. Why is it when he asked the question regarding the man that came to see him and his counselor Marion G. Romney, why isn't he cites section 82 verse seven to this young man who is seeking for an assurance that he is forgiven.

Instead, he says in response to how would you answer when he might come to you asking that question. He cites Mosiah 42 through three. No. I agree what he cites there would've been very comforting because the book of Mormon does take a lot of ideas and even actual verses from our New Testament and applies them in a setting that is really at an anachronism.

For instance, you take Mosiah chapter 4 you're talking about a pre-Christian era, and yet they're talking about Jesus Christ and they got him by name and in their using all these New Testament concepts before the New Testament even came around.

We call that an anachronism, but still what is said in chapter 4 of Mosiah for the most part I don't have a problem with that when he says the miracle of forgiveness is available to all of those who turn from their evil doings and return no more. And then he cites doctrine and covenants section 82 verse seven that's a verse friend of mine was given by our friend Dick bear when he was a missionary in California sitting in a restaurant.

Dick bear our friend went up to him and just spent three or four minutes with him, and he gave my friend, this verse that verse hunted my friend all the way through his mission and he ended up becoming an atheist.

When he returned home. I'm going to say that's a horrible verse in fact there is another book that was written by Harold Bailey called the teachings of Harold B. Lee on page 114. This is what he says repentance means to turn from sin is what he writes repentance and one sentence means turning from the things that have been wrong and never returning back to them.

It isn't to say I'm sorry and then go back and do it again and again say I'm sorry that's not it.

It is to go about our way, and sin no more. But if they sin again.

It is as though they haven't been forgiven in the first instance to use the Lord's own language and then he says, see D&C 82 7II think his little phrase here. There was the answer in reference to Mosiah 4233 was misleading to say the least. But at least he's consistent when it comes to his definition of repentance in a Mormon context and don't get us wrong. Folks were not saying that as Christians we don't believe in the concept of repentance we most certainly do, but we don't believe that there has to be a 100% success rate at it in order to receive the forgiveness of sins, Harold B.

Lee seems to think that there is and what I mean by him being consistent. Well let me just read from here the light of the world.

Selected sermons and writings of Harold believe this came out in 1974, page 321.

Belief is this in one sentence.

Repentance means turning from that which we have done wrong in the side of the Lord and never repeating that mistake again. How far does that go does that go into the realm of thoughts are you a proud person, then you can never be proud again. Let's be consistent here. How does that apply to every single way that we as fallen human beings can sin. Thank you for listening. If you would like more information regarding his research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website at www.mrm.org you can request your free newsletter is a research we hope you will join us again as we look at another viewpoint on Mormonism

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