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March 23, 2021 8:40 pm
Teachings of the church of Jesus Christ facing viewpoint sponsored by Mormonism research ministry since 1979 Mormonism research ministry has been dedicated to equipping the body of Christ with answers regarding the Christian faith in a manner that expresses gentleness and respect. And now, your host for today's viewpoint on Mormonism so glad to be with us for this edition of viewpoint on Mormonism on your host, Bill McKeever, founder and director Mormonism research ministry with me today is Eric Johnson. My colleague at MRM but were also pleased to have with us Jay Warner Wallace is the author of cold case, Christianity, God's crime scene and forensic faith. He speaks all over the country on apologetic issues and he is a wealth of information.
In fact, the late Dr. Norman Geisler said few professions better prepare a person to follow the evidence then being a detective and few detectives are better prepared Christians to be apologists than Jay Warner Wallace. That's quite a statement might be claimed to find Jim with Dr. Geisler's. I drove in from the airport to a conference in Kansas City once and that's about it. I never got a statement like that from him happen to you like wow I never really earned or deserved any of the statements that are made about me by other people but but I think you're right about investigating radically U asking today were asking good investigative questions to get to the truth about what happened to Jesus. Yesterday we were talking about some of the objections that critics have raised regarding the bodily resurrection of Christ, and we were talking about what is come to be known as the swoon theory. Eric thought we needed to continue with that thought because there's so much that you can say about it and we have a police detective online item he knows all about death and you cannot have a resurrection unless you do have the staff so yesterday Jimmy were telling us about how Jesus didn't have his legs broken, but he did have a spear through his heart.
What are some other things that you have seen that can help us to prove that Jesus actually was dead so that we could have had a resurrection I told you or in part by hamburgers, but you never had a hamburger, really. And all you've done is using other people eat hamburgers. You still have a sense of what your opinion probably about hamburgers, but you wouldn't have enough experience to know you really have a hamburger money because you never and she wanted work in real life and that's I think what happened here was actually work where we are in contact repeatedly with dead people. This professions are out there, first responders, nurses, funeral homes, corners all that stuff I certainly seen my share or more of dead people.
Every time you're assigned a case as a homicide in Los Angeles County you have to be present at the autopsy but I've actually been at the scene as a patrol officer and as it is a detective while not long behind adapter. I never ever mistaken a living person for that person. Or vice versa. Because unlike most people I people who touch dead bodies have a firsthand experience of dead body and nobody else's got an idea of what that looks like based on watching TV. So here's my bring this up if your grandmother dies, you're probably not going to going in and treat her body wrap it up and carry it down the to the morgue or carry it down to the funeral home. You're going to call somebody and you may never even touch your grandmother and he'll take care of all of it, but this is not the case in the first century the first century, the ancient their own work in this regard. They were also their own midwives date they were responsible for birth to death and that's why you see in the pages of New Testament the followers of Jesus had to prepare his body. I don't think that this generation of humans was as ignorant about the signs of death as we are today. So it turns out the signs of death are called the mortise triad and if you worked as an investigator been around dead bodies, you will know that these things and give away that quickly you're pulling her body off across bring it to the tomb wrapping up and preparing it, locking it down and leaving overnight. There's no way you're going to miss the mortise triad.
The first thing that happens is you start to lose body temperature, you start to cool down because nothing is keeping you hot is the blood that's coursing through your veins when your heart stops beating that hot blood stops moving and you start to decline in temperature to the temperature where every environment you happen to be dead. People don't feel like living people. They are cooler to the touch when you are handling them. You'll know they're dead because they're not creepily cool to the touch. That is called elder mortise and that's the first of the mortise triad. The second is that when your heart stops beating.
You started became the smallest ways that Rick got lead to rigidity start become rigid is called rigor mortis. This idea is that if you're in a cross position and I got to go and talk to Pilate, which as we know it happened in Scripture of the gospel of Mark and ask for the body and he cut a check and make sure that that it's it's all good to go Avenue to go out and says that they went out and bought the linen closet and then they took down the body. Will you take that body up across it's not just the flock down like a bag of wheat can be stiff is to begin become rigid, but the biggest giveaway is the third leg of the mortise triad and that is that when your heart stops pushing your blood gravity takes over and start to draw your blood.
So if you're on your back when you die and I get there. I roll over your ear, your body over.
I will find that on your back, your bruised that the blood is settled by gravity to got your back. If you're in a cross position and your heart stops your feet will begin to swell and purple and these are the signs that nobody talks about right, but these are the three things that all dead bodies exhibit and so I bought a vast audience. As a result of your first responder somebody using dead bodies you handle dead bodies you ever be able to mistake an unconscious body for a dead body that movie stuff is like like novel stuff, but in real life. The mortise triad gives away every time were talking about a generation that was accustomed to handling its own dead.
They understood the mortise triad so this idea that somehow they could be fooled by an unconscious Jesus was eventually become conscious again. I don't get past the first minutes of this idea because I never concern myself about how to get out of tune to mentality look so good in front of people on the road to Emmaus guys you would spot this immediately.
No one can be fooled by an unconscious Jesus because of the mortise triad. I think you're making a great point there Jim and as far as the professional status of the people you just mentioned back in those days they had Roman soldiers.
If you think that they were going to miss that this man was a lie when they took him off the cross. I think that's a great point right triad. Why we make those kinds of claims we say or hate Romans understood the nature of dad. You know about the mortise triad.
Trust me, if you been around three dead people you would understand. It didn't take long to learn this because it's so obvious what the disciples merely lied about the resurrection you write some non-Christians claim that the disciples stole the body from the grave and later fabricated the stories of Jesus's resurrection appearance what your response to that voting on.
I love it is appointed, sometimes by Christians, Mormons and other believers who are so quick to embrace conspiracy.
Because I work in. You have more than one person who is involved in a crime while it then you can act include the I can if I want to include the conspiracy charge. In addition to the murder charge.
But I got really make the conspiracy. There are certain elements of the conspiracy and state law in every state. California also. And I've learned over the years. There's five things you have to have for successful conspiracy. Number one the smallest number of co-conspirators two people can tell a lie and keep a secret for years. But the 20+ heart, you need to shortest period of time. Turns out it's easier to tell the like you to figure per day than it is for a year. So if you have the smallest number of people in the shortest amount of time you can get away with it. Not to say that you can't get away with the conspiracy, but you need these five things in order to do it, but only if you think you know the successful conspiracy. It wasn't successful by definition, is the ones that are successful. The ones you never detect so this is a conspiracy amongst the 12 there's only too many and hold it for 60 years. How many are there hundred and 20 in the upper room, according to Luke in the book of acts chapter 1 Paul scissors 500 still available and in first Corinthians 15 3 to 8. So if you look at the text and images.
Too many people involved. For too long. Time is like 60 years right that this goes on before the last witnesses that, but you also need that thing that's really deceptive is is you need excellent munication between co-conspirators and you need that because in the end, we will certainly ordinate it would get two or three people involved in a separate can't talk to each other and ask all kinds of detailed questions that are in the weeds right because we are trying to to see if any of them are lying and compare their statements to each other and if we find that they don't match. We can't communicate.
We separated that disciples are separated all over the Empire get Thomas in India potential. You got Matthew in North Africa you got Paul as far away as Rob you got James and John. Inapposite how they communicate with each other. How is it that there details related to the story of Jesus all match when there separated by thousands of miles without any way to communicate that makes sense if you got eyewitnesses not sense if you got a lie that you could actually investigate so those those things are in growing important.
You also want family relationships.
You have no family relationship safely between Matthew in any of the other disciples in Matthew right. Generally, gospel, and finally you need low pressure and we know that the disciples experienced high pressure so all of the things that I would have to employ to break conspiracy were applied to the authors, they didn't have any of the five things needed to be successful in the conspiracy, yet they never change their story. Finally, you know this already by the changes in the stories of really to the book of Mormon. Those who allegedly were eyewitnesses of the gold tablets right so we know that this kind of thing we have experienced that when people aren't telling us the truth.
Their stories begin to break down once they experience pressure. This did not happen with the disciples.
I think that's also a problem with Joseph Smith's account so the first vision you won't be absolutely different account.
I know Mormon apologists and leaders of tried very hard to convince their people that merely complement rather than they contradict. But certainly that isn't the case all the time. As far as motives, what motives with the disciples that had to have lied because you have to have a motive right you all lies all murders in all crime and all sins are only driven by three motives.
I discovered his work investigations by later found it in first John chapter 2, only three reasons why anyone tells a lie or commits a crime or commit murder or commit the sin is financial greed, sexual lust or desire, and the pursuit of power. Those are the only three reasons. Also, for example, we know that Joseph had all three right Joseph at all three. Think of me lying just means that he was well motivated to lie because you gain from it in terms of the number of wives he had gained from in terms be supported by the church he gain from it in terms of the power and authority and position. He had as a leader in the church that you tell me comparing Joseph to any of the disciples were getting money out of this mailing and girlfriend out of their multiple wives. So what are they getting out of the small apartment. The skeptic might say, well, you're getting power there, the leaders of movements really so the author of the largest section of the New Testament was Paul who was already a leader in a religious group that is larger than Christianity.
He decide 20 and when I jump out of this group and get beaten up all over the world for the next 30 years, hoping to return to the status and authority and power. I already have. This is ridiculous.
So were postings out talking about that if you apply that idea that that template for motive to Mormonism. It quickly disqualifies its authority. If you apply that to Christianity quickly leaves you thinking for them while they tell the story if you don't envy about first century history and Roman Empire. They were tolerant of a lot of different religions.
If they do here is to those religions would also embrace the pantheon of Roman God only two groups with that.
Can't do that.
That was the Jews and the Christian. It just turns out that that those two groups are the one that suffered the most for their trade claims are to claim Christianity is true in the first century your paper that talking to Jay Warner Wallace is the author cold case Christianity and this week we are talking about a booklet that he put together called alive. A cold case approach to the resurrection and tomorrow are going to continue this conversation with Jim thank you for listening. If you would like to research ministry. We encourage you to visit our website www.mrm.org you can request a free newsletter research join us again as we look at another viewpoint