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Mockers: Where is the Promise of His Coming?

Understanding The Times / Jan Markell
The Truth Network Radio
August 19, 2017 8:00 am

Mockers: Where is the Promise of His Coming?

Understanding The Times / Jan Markell

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August 19, 2017 8:00 am

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Are not pastors to preach the whole counsel of God? Then why do most leave out one third of the Bible?

We'll talk about that next. I call it the Gospel of Accommodation because it's adapting and adjusting the Gospel to appease and attract people. Today, around the world, millions of people in the United States and around the world interested in Bible prophecy have their eyes riveted on the prized city of Jerusalem. Just out of curiosity, I googled Israel End Times and the results were staggering, over 11 million. I also typed in the words Israel prophecy.

The search results were a whopping 10.4 million. So clearly, millions of people around the world feel that the state of Israel will play a major role in the last days. And welcome to the program. We look at news, views, truths from a decidedly biblical perspective.

And that little tease was to sort of set the stage for the topic for this hour. And let me just say, and this is all by way of introduction, and I pray everyone be patient with me as I set the stage. Let me just say, when I began in ministry a few decades ago now, I ministered in hundreds of churches, home fellowships, women's groups, even some men's groups.

And every week I would pile in my small little vehicle with a 12-string guitar, sound equipment, audio visual, a map, of course a Bible, and head towards destinations large and small. And my audiences were enthusiastic as I shared the various kinds of themes and messages that have been presented on Understanding the Times radio now for 16 years. And today about 90 or 95 percent of those doors have slammed shut. And it's not just indifference anymore. It is outright hostility towards topics that a few years ago generated great enthusiasm. Yes, they're small pockets of interest, and I'm so glad that they remain.

But the opportunities literally continue to shrink. And we are now in the days of 2 Peter 3, the mocking and the scoffing. So how did this happen? I'm going to talk about this with two pastors. And both of them are very tuned into the topics that you, my audience, have grown to love and follow faithfully over all these years on air and at my conferences and other places online. And one of my guests is Pastor Tom Hughes, and that's Calvary Chapel, San Jacinto, California. Tom, welcome back to the program. Jan, it's great to be with you. Always wonderful to talk to you. Well, and then I bumped into a good buddy of yours, Pastor Mark Henry. He's actually from the Twin Cities, and that's from Revive Brooklyn Park Church.

I'll give the website a little bit later. Mark, thank you for coming in studio. Jan, it's a blessing. Look forward to talking about the Lord Jesus today. You two know each other, you and Tom Hughes. Yeah, Tom and I go back at about 10 years or so.

We were both pastoring in the same town, and it's been a great bond, praying for him and his church and his ministry and collaborating together. It's been wonderful. Well, Tom, I'm also playing off an article you wrote, and you wrote this a while ago, but maybe a couple years ago.

It's gotten a lot of mileage. And let me just summarize it, because I think I can perhaps do it real quickly here. You wrote, at least in the last couple of years, you wrote that pastors don't touch on the topic of eschatology, end times, Israel in prophecy, current events in prophecy. And number one, you stated in the article you wrote, which I reproduced a couple of times. Number one, they don't understand it. Number two, they fear offending members. Number three, they are concerned about scaring people. Number four, they fear losing the tithes if they talk about end time events.

Number five, they are afraid of being identified with the loony fringe in such a sterile camping and every reason to be afraid of the loony fringe. Pastor Mark Henry, would you agree with this list that Tom Hughes has come up with? I would actually say the first one is probably the one that I see most of the time when I ask pastors about prophecy. A lot of times they just say, you know, I graduated from seminary, but I haven't come to really any conclusions about Bible prophecy. Do they say if that seminary intentionally avoided teaching them? You know, I've never had anyone say that specifically, but that very well may be the case.

I don't know. Tom Hughes, do you know if the seminaries then are intentionally shutting this out? You know, I know a lot of things that I've read, Jan, and it appears that way. I haven't met with anybody specifically that has mentioned to me that the seminary was shut out. But I do know from pastors that I know, it's not only that they don't understand it and the reasons I originally listed in the article, but quite frankly, there's a real pushback against Bible prophecy in churches that I communicate with. They really don't want to go down that step of Bible prophecy. Because of the reasons that I've just already read. They fear offending members, they're concerned about scaring people, et cetera?

I would say that's it. But also there is this labeling of Bible prophecy as being for those who are fools. And it really falls into the category, I think you mentioned that we're in the days of 2 Peter where they'll be mocking those who are believing in the second coming of Christ. And I believe that's what's taking place in the church at large in America. Not every church is that way. Obviously, Pastor Mark, not neither am I.

And we have some other friends and associates that aren't. But at large, it seems to be the majority of the direction of the churches. Yeah, I would say from the pastoral side, I think it has to do something with the Bible colleges and seminaries, which we may talk about later. But I think from the church standpoint, you remember in the book of Deuteronomy, the people were warned that when God blessed them in the land, that they would forget God. And I would suggest to you the blessings we've had in America, people have forgotten God.

And quite honestly, I have people say this on a fairly regular basis. I didn't want Jesus to come right now. I want to graduate from college. I want to have kids. I want to adopt somebody.

I want to do this or that. There isn't this urgency, come Lord Jesus, like we see in persecuted situations. Or I see in Africa, I haven't preached all over Africa where people are in great oppression. And they say, Pastor Mark, tell me what's coming next. And I just opened my Bible and we read and they rejoice.

You're listening to Understanding the Times Radio. I'm Jan Markell. I have online from San Jacinto, California, Pastor Tom Hughes. And that's 412 Church in San Jacinto. I have in studio Pastor Mark Henry from Revive Brooklyn Park Church. And Revive Brooklyn Park Church used to be Brooklyn Park E Free. If some of my Twin Cities listeners are wondering just where is that?

You might remember the name of the previous same church, just a different name. All right. I want to talk, gentlemen, something real briefly here. The cry of the young is all social justice. And as a result, young people are more troubled by injustice than they are inspired by Bible prophecy. Would that be an accurate statement, Tom Hughes? Is that accurate? I would say it's accurate.

I know a lot of young people, we have good outreach towards younger generation, millennials. But I would say it's really accurate. In fact, Jan, I would say this too, that sometimes when it comes to Bible prophecy teachers such as myself or Mark, there is a tendency to lean more towards just talking about what is coming and not reaching into our own communities. Or in Mark's case, Mark reaches all over the world into Africa.

And I think there is a label that comes with that, unfortunately, just because not all prophecy ministries are real well balanced in that regard. I want to play a sound bite and get the feedback from both of you. And this is Tony Campolo. And he is sort of the Pied Piper of the, I guess if you want to call it the social justice crowd, he is certainly their hero. He's the Pied Piper. And this is a little sound bite from Campolo.

And he's going to say some things that actually are not, let me put it this way, should be expected from a Tony Campolo. Let's discuss it when we're through with it. We must challenge dangerous ideologies.

I know that some of you are here at our dispensation. But his purpose was to make the claim that the prophecies were to be fulfilled, that Israel would return to the Holy Land, that they would in fact own the land and have a government. And that would be the fulfillment of the Hebraic philosophies of the prophets, of the teachings of the Hebrew Bible. And the interesting thing is that not a single theologian up until John Darby ever had anything like this in his mind. I mean, if you talk about a rapture, go to Calvin, go to Luther, go to Zwingli. If you're Catholic, go to St. Thomas Aquinas, go to Augustine.

There isn't a single theologian that ever had anything like this. It just came out of nowhere. And yet this has become the dominant way of thinking. And yet it legitimates land grabs.

It legitimates a mindset that says taking land away from Palestinian people is legitimate. Again, Tony Campolo, the voice for many on the left, the religious left, for the social justice crowd, he has their ear. You know, a couple of things just come to mind when I'm listening to that is, you know, it goes back to this historical declarations of different theologians.

And he's right in that sense. They didn't talk about the rapture. Quite honestly, John Calvin didn't even write a commentary on the book of Revelation because he just said it's too confusing.

And I would suggest to you it's not too confusing, but coming out of Catholicism, he really didn't have any other view than a kind of an amillennial, post-millennial sort of influenced view. It's not surprising. So I would suggest to you that's not the source to go to. The source to go to is the Bible.

The Bible speaks whatever men may think. Well, he concludes that little soundbite by saying all of this just legitimates land grab. In other words, he's talking about Israel.

Israel has no right to the land and this is dispensationalism justifying this land grab. Tom, your thoughts? I can't agree with that. The Apostle Paul, you don't want to talk about theologians, go all the way back to the Apostle Paul then. And, you know, I was raised Catholic.

I get amillennial teaching. But when I came and started reading the Bible, I found out the Bible does teach this. The Apostle Paul was very specific in talking about the rapture, the term caught up or harpazo.

And we have that. It is a teaching of the Bible. And when I hear this about a land grab, too, you know, Mark and I have talked about this many times over the years. God had a covenant with Abraham and that covenant was a forever covenant. And it wasn't based upon whether or not the Jews were disobedient or obedient. God told them, if you're disobedient, I'll scatter you through the four corners of the earth. But in the last days, I'll bring you back into the land because my name's on the covenant. It was an unconditional covenant in that sense.

God made it with Abram when Abram was asleep. Instead, it's just really, it's not taking the truth of the Bible, it's ignoring so many passages regarding the second coming of Christ. It's somewhat appalling to me. But then again, Peter said in the last days, scoffers would come saying, where's the promise of his coming?

And this is where we're at. Unfortunately, it's infected the church. Tom, I'm sure you would agree. You know, he misses an important thing there. And that is all the land is owned by God. He created all things. So therefore, he's the owner of all things. And he has given to Abraham and his descendants a specific piece of property. God is going to give it to them, whether anybody likes it or not. He gave it to them, sent Moses to lead the people back in there. Joshua to lead the people back in there.

They were dispersed under the Mosaic covenant. They're going to come back and Jesus is going to rule and reign there eventually. That's not a land grab. He's the king. Someone's been taking it from him. He's taken it back.

He's going to give it to his people. Folks, let me just tell you how to get a hold of my two guests today. And I want to particularly recommend Tom Hughes, his End Times TV, and outstanding videos that he makes on eschatology at, You can reach my other guests, Pastor Mark Henry,, There are some other voices that are making lots of noise and they're in the same category as this Tony Campolo. But you've got Shane Claiborne.

You've got Jim Wallace. You've got the whole Christ at the Checkpoint crowd. You've got some annual events, the Justice Conference, which, good grief, a year ago they had Marxist Cornell West.

But their target is evangelical young people with a heavy left emphasis on them and a heavy pro-Palestinian anti-Israel message being thrown at them, which they may not be old enough to discern the times. That's as it concerns these people that are guest speakers. Oh, yeah.

In fact, Jan, I have a whole documentary I've been working on and refuting the whole BDS movement, you know, the Boycott, Divest, and Sanction movement. And I've been to Catalyst Conference. Oh, you have? Okay. Yeah, I have. They're interesting.

It is very appealing to people who are young. And, you know, when I think of the whole social justice, my mind goes back to the Gospel of John where Judas was upset when the perfume is broken and Jesus is anointed with it. And Jesus says, you're going to have to pour with you always. And the problem is the social justice gospel is, I look at it as the Gospel of Judas. It's putting the whole social works above who Christ really is. And that's what it teaches. Yeah, I don't know how you see that, Jan, but the social gospel technically is a redistributing of funds and opportunity and privileges to others.

But I would suggest that there's really two movements. Jesus was interested in social things. I mean, he cared for people, he cared for women, the woman at the well, all these different things. But there's a difference between the social elements in the Bible, because it's God-centered, and a humanistic centering of these things.

And I don't think we have the discernment anymore to separate these things. I was at a conference recently, 15,000 students there, most of them younger than I am, so under 45. And quite honestly, in that crowd, there was a large contingency of leaders. They were speaking on one of these social issues, which is saving the environment.

At the end of the meeting, I had two young pastors that I had brought with me. I said, what did you walk away with? And they said, you know, we need to save the environment.

God wants us to do that. And I said, well, who's the biggest polluter? And they thought for a moment, and one said America, the next one said China. And I said, no, no.

And I said, keep thinking. And eventually, after about 15 minutes, I said, I want you to turn your Bibles. I want you to look with me at the seal judgments. And I want you to see how God destroys, how Jesus opens the seals, how he blows the trumpets of the angels. And a third of all of the fish die, the water's polluted. You see, there's something bigger that God is doing here than just saving the planet. And they were kind of shocked.

They would never have connected any of these dots. Interesting. Again, you're listening to Understanding the Times Radio, talking with Pastor Mark Henry in the Twin Cities here. And Pastor Tom Hughes, and many of you may watch his End Times TV productions online.

Gentlemen, I want to head down just a similar path, just a little different. And I want to talk a little bit about what evangelicals are saying. Unfortunately, I can't quote everyone I would like to. There are conditions when you err on radio networks that you don't attack people, so I'm not going to.

But I also am unable to name some that I would really need to be named. But I can quote blogger Tim Challies. This is what he writes now. He's an extremely popular Reformed writer online. And he says this.

This is just recently, as a matter of fact. He said, there are seven false teachers in the church today. One category of false teacher he labels as the speculator. He says that, quote, today, as in every age, the speculator obsesses about end times. And somehow, his failed predictions dissuade neither him nor his followers. Closed quote.

Again, very popular blogger online. And yet, we obsess about end times. And our failed predictions, not that the three of us have made any predictions, we wouldn't go there.

He mocks us for not learning from our failures. And I'm sure you've encountered folks like this. Mark? Absolutely. And, you know, I find it interesting that he says that because it's in the book of Isaiah where God says, I'm the God of heaven and earth. You can test me. I'm going to tell you things. I've got plans. I'll make myself known.

You will see my glory. And back in the 80s, when I trusted Christ, I mean, I'm reading through the Bible. I'm telling people, you know, about this global economy and people thought I was crazy. And, you know, reading the Book of Revelation talks about swords and chopping people's heads off and different things. I thought that's crazy. But, you know, it's not so crazy anymore.

In fact, now unsaved people, I've even heard him say on Fox News, maybe these Christians are right after all. Good point. I have to take my first break. When I come back, I want to continue to name some individuals.

And I don't do this to be offensive. I'm just stating what they write or teach and how this has complicated the very blessed and sacred message that the three of us believe that eschatology or end time teaching is. And when we get such prominent people, as I'm going to name a few more, what they're saying, you'll understand how they are, in fact, really inhibiting. I'll say it, the gospel. They really are.

But they're certainly inhibiting the spreading of the good news that the king is coming. I'm back in just a minute or two. Don't go away. Don't go away. We're now just weeks away from Understanding the Times 2017, Saturday, October 7th, Eden Prairie, Minnesota, just outside of Minneapolis. There is no registration needed and there is no conference fee to attend. Consider joining thousands from across America for this annual event of like minded believers as we focus on current events and anticipate what the Bible calls our blessed hope.

Speakers include Amir Tsarfati. Everything is different and it's amazing because the world is on the brink of something big. And I'm not saying that you watch your news, you read your newspapers and you'll see it yourself. And God has also set forth for us some of the signs or the things we can look for as we approach the end times. And the Bible tells us that there are discernible signs of the times that are going to pretend the Lord's coming. By the way, in chapters 1, 2 and 3, the word church is mentioned 19 times and you don't find the word church mentioned again from chapter 4, verse 1 on through the rest of the book.

And Michelle Bachman. We are in your face with jihad. We are in your face in that we are going to conquer you and our values will prevail, Islamic values, not your values.

That's what we need to understand. They are literally at war against the West. Be sure to make hotel reservations soon as they fill up early. We're looking forward to meeting you Saturday, October 7 from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. at Grace Church, Eden Prairie, Minnesota. Call us for more details 763-559-4444, 763-559-4444, or just visit the conference page at our website

See you on October 7. We live in unprecedented times and we'll help you understand them. Look at futurism. It agrees so much with what cults are saying, not what the historic church has been saying, but what the cults have been saying. Since almost one-third of God's word contains Bible prophecy, we've often wondered why so many churches choose to ignore it.

Pastors Mark Henry and Tom Hughes are with Jan Markell this hour to discuss that issue. Let's return to their conversation. Nor is God a land broker. He's not a real estate agent.

Land does not belong to a people because of their genetic evidence. And welcome back. And I have a couple of special guests with me for the hour. And we have been talking about, well, the marginalization of topics that are so essential to understanding the times and understanding God's plan for the end of the age. That would be Israel and prophecy. That would be just the whole eschatological outline that the Bible has. You know, that's one-third of the Bible. And if pastors want to rightly divide the word of God, too many are marginalizing this particular topic. In studio with me is Pastor Mark Henry from Revive Brooklyn Park Church in a Minneapolis suburb.

Pastor Tom Hughes, 412 Church in San Jacinto, California, Calvary Chapel in San Jacinto, California. And again, gentlemen, thank you both for joining me. And Tom, I had to exit quickly in my last segment. You wanted to weigh in.

Go ahead. Looking back at something that Mark had said in the last segment regarding Isaiah chapter 46, God specifically says that he's the one that declares the end from the beginning, from ancient times, things that are not yet done. And he says, I will do all my pleasure. And then at the end of that chapter, he says, I will place salvation in Zion for Israel, my glory. So I look at this in these comments that you just need to get away from Bible prophecy, from so many speakers that are out there now. God wants us to understand. You look at all of the discourse, Matthew 24 and so many other chapters of the New Testament and the writings of Paul.

God wants us to understand. And we're even told to watch and be ready. So that applies to every generation of Christians to watch and be ready to watch and pray.

Jan, I liken it to this when the disciples, the few disciples that were with Jesus on the night that he was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, he's crying out to the Father, he's sweating as there were great drops of blood. He tells his disciples, he goes, watch and pray. He tells them too, in the Garden of Gethsemane.

They fall asleep. They didn't understand what was actually coming. They weren't aware of it. I'm guessing if they really knew what was about to happen, their master was going to get arrested and put on the cross, they would have been wide awake. They would have been watching.

They would have been praying. In the same way, if you get a bad report from a doctor, your thought process is going to change. You're suddenly going to set your course.

The doctor says, you've got six months to live. You're going to live differently over those next six months. The Lord gives us Bible prophecy. He wants us to watch and pray, and it will cause us to live our lives that are different for him. It will cause us to live a life that is holier to him. It will cause us to worship him. It will cause us to spread the gospel. So these teachings are saying just ignore Bible prophecy.

To me, it's disheartening because it's really done right. Bible prophecy actually inspires Christ the Lord. Absolutely. Let me just read from a few more quotes here.

And this is a name I think everyone knows in my listening audience. Dr. John Piper says this, Israel has no warrant to a present experience of divine privilege when she's not keeping the covenant with God. Israel has no divine right to be in the land of promise when she's breaking the covenant promise, period. For now, the people are at enmity with God in rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ, their Messiah. And all of us know that John Piper has a huge following. Well, this is the message coming from him. We've got Lynn Hybels, Bill and Lynn Hybels, both extremely influential.

Willow Creek in Chicago. Lynn is very outspoken, but she's extremely pro-Palestinian. They are replacement theology. The church is the new Israel. She says, I believe the ongoing military occupation of the West Bank and the continuing blockade of Gaza is a violation of human rights.

As such, it deeply harms the security, freedom and dignity of both people. Another prominent author writes this. I'm not able to name this particular author.

You'll just have to accept that, folks. He says this in one of his books. He writes, the details of my return are none of your business. Jesus talking. What is your business is the mission I have given you.

Focus on that. If you want Jesus to come back sooner, focus on fulfilling your mission, not figuring out prophecy. Pastor Mark Henry, do you hear some of this coming from some of the church leaders you're kind of rubbing shoulders with? Absolutely. You hear it all the time. And boy, all of those quotes.

I mean, you could parse each of them uniquely, but that one you just mentioned was a paraphrase. And he was trying there to describe in Acts chapter one when the disciples are asking about the kingdom. And apparently his commentary is there that Jesus is saying, don't worry about it.

Focus on the mission and then I'll come back. Well, Jesus doesn't come back because we accomplish the mission. We are supposed to share the gospel with Jew and Gentile alike. And Jesus definitely has a mission. In fact, he's given us the whole book of Revelation to describe his future glory, majesty and conquering and his blessing. Ultimately, a new heavens, a new earth where righteousness dwells.

Tom Hughes. And of course, you're heavily in the Calvary Chapel kind of circuit there. And Calvary Chapel remains one of the few denominations to cling tenaciously to eschatology. But some of these quotes, I'm not sure I'm finished with them yet. Ring a bell with you.

Yes, they do. You know, looking back at my beginning with Calvary Chapel and Pastor Chuck was very instrumental in my desire to get into Bible prophecy and study it. And understanding Israel within the Bible.

However, I see a turning from Bible prophecy, even a turning, I would say, from the nation of Israel. And the problem with Calvary Chapel, it's a loose affiliation. So you don't have any dogmatic statement that has come out regarding something like replacement theology or anything like that.

But I can sense it and I'm in conversations or I hear things and it saddens me. I want to play a clip. Actually, it's a Calvary Chapel pastor, Pastor Jack Hibbs, and he sums it up in less than three minutes. I think he eloquently explains why this wonderful blessed hope that we all have is so important. Even though as the purpose of our discussion here is probably 90 percent of pulpits and maybe 98 have dropped the topic of the king is coming soon and the wonderful hope that is for the believer.

And this is just a real short soundbite where Jack just lays it out. Look, in our world, we're looking at hopelessness, terror, insanity, violence. Many people are scared. The blessed hope is the fact that the king is coming back.

Churches, talk about it, OK? I don't know about you, but if you look around at the world and what's happening right now, there's a lot of hopeless people. There's a lot of people scared. There is a lot of terrorism. It's increasing. There's violence. It's increasing.

There's insanity that is afoot. And these last few weeks in the United States and now, of course, again, around the world with what's taking place, we need to be reminded and we need to be recipients of what is always in front of us. And that is the hope of God that God has promised us. And I'm wondering this morning if we have missed or often I should say forget the greatest hope for the believer today. It's a universal hope. It's something that is well recorded in scripture.

And it's something that is rarely talked about. Not so much in this church, but for the church by and large in the earth. And I'm talking about the rapture and the hope of the rapture. I'm going to remind you today, if you're a Christian, I need to see your hand. If you're a Christian, raise your hand.

If you're a Christian, then you've read the Bible. If you're a Christian, having read the Bible, you understand something, that the rapture will take place. Now, Christians disagree on when it's going to take place, but no Christian denies that it's going to take place.

It's going to happen. Some people want to argue about when. And we're going to talk a little bit about that today, all for this reason, that you might have hope and leave this building today excited about that hope. So I'm going to ask you to grab your Bibles and turn to 1 Thessalonians 4 verses 13 through 18 and park right there with that Bible open to that portion of scripture.

And we read it together. Verse 13. But as Paul says, I do not want you to be ignorant or uninformed, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep or died. The believer is always referred to as someone who, having died, appears to be sleeping. Lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, God will bring with him those who have who sleep in Jesus or died believing in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep, died in Jesus. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ that is their bodies will rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up. That's the word rapture in Latin, harpazo in Greek, two words in English caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus, we shall always be with the Lord.

Therefore, comfort one another with these words. If you've just joined me, you're listening to Understanding the Times Radio, I'm Jan Markell. I have on the line from California, Pastor Tom Hughes, Calvary Chapel, San Jacinto, 412 Church out there. I have in studio Pastor Mark Henry from Twin Cities Revive Brooklyn Park Church, used to be Brooklyn Park E Free Church. And Pastor Mark Henry, you've been I think you're about 18 months in the Twin Cities now? That's correct.

18 months. What kind of a climate and I don't mean cold, hot or anything else. What kind of climate do you sense here when it comes to the things we're talking about? You know, it's my privilege to be around a lot of pastors. I have trained pastors here across the pond and and as I've been interacting with pastors here, one of the things I always bring up is so what do you think about Bible prophecy? And one of the things that's kind of sad in my heart is over and over I've heard pastors say I'm interested in Jesus, but I'm not really interested in the Bible prophecy stuff, which is shocking to me because Jesus is very interested in it. In fact, he's got the last book of the Bible is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. And he's also very interested because you know, a third of the Bible's prophecy, all of that discourse and so forth. So I just find that very ironic. We want to have Jesus, but we're not interested in prophecy about him ruling, reigning, a new heavens, new earth, the rapture of his church.

These are good things to hold on to. Well, to my Twin Cities audience, and I've talked to a lot of you at my summer Sunday night class I've had in St. Louis Park, 500 on some occasions, even 600 on a few Sunday nights. And you want to find this in this area, my national audience, bear with me please, but again, Revive Church in Brooklyn Park is the place. As a matter of fact, next Sunday night, which would be August the 27th, I'm going to be making a new DVD and it's titled How Did the Blessed Hope Become the Blasted Hope?

The Attack on Bible Prophecy. And if you'd like to come on out to that filming Sunday night at 6.30, that would be August the 27th at Cahilat Sar Shalom in St. Louis Park. It's a rental arrangement we have with them as the churches aren't particularly open to the topic. So we're just filming it at Cahilat Sar Shalom on next Sunday night, 6.30 p.m.

There's no cost, no registration. Just come on out. You'll meet hundreds and hundreds of like-minded people who love this topic.

Okay, I kind of digress there. You know, I want to get into, in the time that we have left, guys, I want to get into the decline of dispensationalism. And we've talked about it. Pastor Mark, you and I have talked about it. Pastor Tom Hughes, give me your take on this because all of us here have been influenced by the likes of John Walvoord, Dwight Pentecost, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler, Mark Hitchcock, Ron Rhodes, Dave Reagan, Thomas Ice, Ed Hindson, and so many more. And Tom, somehow along the way, Amillennialism, Preterism, Kingdom Now, Dominionism, and other isms have come in, including Replacement Theology, and crowded out the truth. Yeah, and I can't help but think it's obviously a spiritual battle.

There seems to be some kind of spiritual plan behind it. Even if I mention dispensationalism, or just mention that word, it'll cause all kinds of people to react, and I'll get emails from people all over the place. If I don't mention the word dispensational, or dispensationism, it's not as big of a deal, but it is a buzzword. I had a debate with a gentleman one day regarding subject dispensationalism, and I accused him, he was Amillennial at the time, and I accused him, I said, I said, you are a dispensationalist. He said, no, I'm not. I said, yes, you are. I said, do you believe in the flood? Well, yeah, it happened.

And then what happened after the flood? I said, these are two different dispensations. And I said, you can argue with me all you want. What you're trying to do is put it into a box and say, these nutty Bible prophecy people are caught up in this dispensationalism.

It's simply not true. Jan, I can look at Romans chapter 11, the Apostle Paul tells us, the time of the Gentiles will be full. There's a time coming. We're in this particular dispensation, but the only reason I can think of why we have gotten, why the church in general at large has gotten away from it, is because it's a spiritual battle that we are in. And quite frankly, those who believe in these things are labeled as just being nuts or heretics or anything but the truth, but it is the truth. And the Bible even teaches this regarding the time of the Gentiles. I have written about Dr. Jim Showers' outstanding article on the decline of eschatology.

And he says this, and he's the head of Friends of Israel, outstanding organization. Dr. Jim Showers says, dispensationalism has become a dirty word in many corners of Christian higher education. He says the next generation of ministry leaders at best sees no value in studying future prophecy and at worst views it with disfavor or as something to be avoided entirely. He suggests even those who hold to dispensationalism and the Christian Zionist view of Israel, born out of a literal interpretation of the Bible, are distancing themselves from these topics.

So, gentlemen, at a time in history when headlines are maddening, to be honest, the very theologies that make sense of what's happening are declining in favor of theologies. Pastor Mark, would it be because they're leaning towards theologies that fill pews and offering plates? I would suggest it goes a little deeper than that, Jan. One is scholastically, because you were talking about pastors and the scholastic world. So in the areas of theology, so if you're working on your PhD, you're supposed to go back and you're supposed to read all of the great works, classical literature on theology.

You learn German, you learn French, et cetera. Well, there's not a lot of dispensationalists back in those days. And as a result of that, if you're going to be scholastic and you're going to be a historic theologian, they're not reading dispensationalists.

And some people would say, well, it's because they're not there. Well, quite honestly, the allegorical system of interpretation was used in all prophetic passages for a long time in church history. Doesn't mean it's not true, because the Bible is true. Every word is true.

Every jot and tittle is true. And God's going to bring it about, including his blessing for Israel. According to Romans Chapter 9, Paul loved the Jewish people. He longed for their salvation.

He preached the gospel to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. And this expectation at the end of the time of the Gentiles, the Jewish nation being grafted back in and experiencing all of God's blessing. So I would suggest to you, a lot of it is deeply rooted in the scholastic approach of trying to be philosophical and highly educated. We just need to be educated in the Bible, quite honestly. Real quick, it does seem, Mark, to me also that what you really have is a type of mocking that takes place. And this goes along with the lines of what you're talking about with education, that those who believe in these prophetic things, they're just not educated, as educated as we are.

They don't have the understanding. And it is an attack in that sense on the intelligence of those who believe that Jesus is coming to get to teach it. And I think you see that, Tom, in the New Testament, right? Where, you know, Jesus ends up grabbing these Galileans and there's this certain animosity that the upper echelon, the Sanhedrin, ends up having towards Jesus' disciples for believing the truth. But it's not only in the academic level, but if you think about the academic level, then writes the commentaries. So a pastor is reading a particular passage, he grabs all these commentaries, they're written by individuals who don't hold to a dispensational view of scripture, an allegorical view. So even if the passage directly addresses something, it's going to be twisted or mocked in such a way, if it's brought up in the area of eschatology or the people of Israel, it's just going to be kind of glossed over. When I get back and we have a shorter segment when we return, I want to talk a little bit about the attack on the pre-Trib rapture, because that indeed is our blessed hope.

And all sorts of voices have come out in more recent years and starting to discourage people from even believing it. We'll do that in just a couple of minutes, folks. Don't go away.

Don't touch your dial. To keep you ready as a watchman on the wall, every weekend we bring you quality conversations about important themes to help you discern the times. We encourage you to write to us at Olive Tree Ministries, Post Office Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311. We're also reachable by phone at 763-559-4444.

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Folks, this ministry has written a little end-time study guide, Are We Living in the Last Days, for your neighborhood group, group in your church interested in these topics. You can cover it in 12 weeks. It's got built-in questions in the study guide. Check it out in my store, You can find it in all of my newsletters, print and e-newsletters, or give my office a call. It's $9 for one copy. You can get 10 copies for $60.

And those who have an interest in this topic, you can just have a 12-week study and it's not detailed, it's not complicated. There's another reason why the rapture is an important part of the life of the church, and that's John chapter 17. Verse 24 says, Father, I desire that they also, referring to believers, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am. So the rapture also exists in an answer to Jesus' prayer. Jesus specifically asked that God makes arrangements for those that God has given Christ, the church and bride, be allowed to come to live with him. Well, how is Jesus going to get his bride? He's going to get his bride through the rapture. On Understanding the Times, today you're enjoying insight from two pastors, Mark Henry and Tom Hughes.

Here with our final segment, Jan Markell. To say that the world is in a state of shock this morning would be to understate the situation. Suddenly and without warning, literally thousands, perhaps millions of people just disappeared. What if the end of the world really isn't as so many have portrayed it? What if the church is not raptured to heaven before the great tribulation, as many are teaching? What if the church has been left ill-prepared to face the antichrist and the mark of the beast? What if Tim LaHaye's claim that if the pre-tribulation rapture is false, then the blessed hope will become the blasted hope actually comes true for millions of pre-tribulation lessons?

What if millions who have been led astray by the pre-trib teaching become part of the great falling away that Jesus warned would take place at that time? And welcome back. We're wrapping up an hour with two special guests that I have, Pastor Mark Henry from Revive Brooklyn Park Church in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota, suburb of Minneapolis, Northwest suburb, and Pastor Tom Hughes, 412 Church, San Jacinto, California, Calvary Chapel.

We have a CD of any program and you got to give us a call or you can do so by mail if you'd like to become a CD subscriber, you do have to call us and you can get a CD of every program by becoming a CD subscriber. Remember, this programming is always posted to my website. If you missed part or all of it, it is posted Saturday morning,,

New programming posted every Saturday for the week. Would you please look into my print and e-newsletter, that's how I get in touch with you, as well as through the website You can reach Pastor Mark Henry at, You can reach my guest Pastor Tom Hughes at

Gentlemen, I wanted to talk about a couple of things in our time that's left, which is short, but I do want to hit the pre-trib rapture here, but we're all aware that over the summer here, a major story came out. As a matter of fact, all sorts of people sent it to me. I was on top of it, but I think they were shocked that it seemed like the Bible was coming into reality. So incredibly obvious ways, microchipping of employees in Wisconsin and microchipping on their hand. They're going to use it in purchasing things.

You just wave the hand of your account over an account that is going to be debited, no cash needed, no cards needed. Pastor Mark Henry, when you heard this story, what did you think? I thought, wow, we were living in the days back when I trusted Christ. I started reading through the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel.

You know, you read those things. I was like, how in the world could these things take place? And now the stage is set in so many ways. Jan, just in my lifetime, I mean, I'm going to be 50 this year. In my lifetime, we've gone from this being like totally crazy, insane, impossible to understand, to like, yep, it can happen tomorrow.

Tom Hughes, your thoughts when you heard this story? Jan, I remember teaching a Bible study on the RFID chip many years ago, and when the technology first started coming out and there were experiments being done, of course, originally with pets and things like that. So in this case, to purchase your item, you wave your hand. And of course, that connects us to Revelation chapter 13. They will come when no one can buy or sell unless they receive the mark of the beast. Well, the technology is here. So when I see this technology, I see it being implemented, I see people volunteering for it. In fact, there's a lot of people that I've heard about online or read about that are excited about this. This is just a prelude to what is coming, and it is coming. And if you take the technology of the RFID chip in your hand, you read about people's faces being scanned in airports, all of these things are here. We have a converging of everything happening at the exact same time. I know you've talked about that with many guests before. And I look at this and I say, wow, we are so close to the second coming of Christ.

It's amazing the rapid speed that everything is taking place. Pastor Tom Hughes covers a lot of these topics on his internet video program, Outstandingly, he does them in 10, 12 minutes and covers whatever some of the current issues are in Bible prophecy and does it in such a professional way. I encourage you to check it out at because all the program is archived there.

So you can go back and look at lots of what he's done. I kind of let in the segment with a tease and not going to actually give the source of those comments. What if the Blessed Hope could become the Blasted Hope? That's actually the title of my DVD I'm making here in a week or so. But Tom, when you heard that little clip, and I think you know the source of it, and you even know the players in the film, and sort of the, what's the term I want to use, sort of the edge that they had when they made that film, as though they made all of us who believe in this blessed hope, our only hope that Titus talks about, and Titus calls it a blessed hope, and yet they made a four hour film mocking us.

What were your thoughts? My thoughts take us back to what you opened up the program with the scoffers, the mockers in the last day. It's making us to appear to be fools. Again, it takes me back to thinking this is spiritual, and the rapture is taught in the Bible. It's very clear. You look at the writings of Paul.

You look at the warnings. And to label anybody who believes in these things as deceivers, jam, you know this, you've been labeled it. I've been labeled a heretic because I teach the rapture.

I'm sure Mark's been labeled a heretic too, or been in conversations like that. This is the world that we live in, but I remember what Jesus said. Upon my return, will there be anybody with faith? So you look at it, I think this is just another sign of how close we are to the Lord's return, because of what people do with this doctrine. You know, it just shocks me, because it is Titus that tells us about the coming of the Lord Jesus, and it calls it the blessed hope. And you know, if you take away the blessed hope, it's not like we came up with it. It isn't like this is Jan's doctrine, this isn't a man-made doctrine. This is something that is in the Word of God, for heaven's sakes. I remember being with a pastor one time, and we were having lunch, and he graduated from a prestigious seminary.

He's well-educated, a great communicator, a great theologian. And he said, Mark, I'm struggling with this whole pre-Trib rapture. Why should I believe? And I said, number one, immanency. The Bible teaches immanency to the church, look for the Lord Jesus. We're waiting for the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Look for him. Doesn't say look for a sign, doesn't say look for the abomination of desolation to us. Immanency is number one. Number two, we're spared from the wrath that is to come, 1 Thessalonians 1 and 5. There's just no other way to navigate around that. Now, it's true, the second coming of Christ is the biggest theological theme, but you can't abandon this rapture, because there are too many verses that talk about the New Testament. We didn't come up with it. The Bible did. But, you know, the church disappears after Revelation 3. We're just gone, and that's for a reason, because we are gone. Now, there are people coming to faith at that time, and maybe they become an underground church, but the official church, Pastor Tom Hughes, is gone after Revelation 3.

Isn't that obvious? I think that alone is one of the most obvious things in the entire Bible when it comes to the rapture from chapter 4, verse 1, where John writes, after these things. Well, after what things? After you go through everything that's taking place right now, you do not see the church again anywhere in the book of Revelation until we return with the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the Great Tribulation. It's completely missing.

It's gone. And again, with what Mark said, God has not appointed us to wrath, 1 Thessalonians chapter 5. The context of that wrath is the wrath of the Tribulation period.

He hasn't appointed us to it. Another thing you're talking about, Tom Hughes, on your End Times TV, is the fact that Cashless is coming, and we've been seeing that in the media here for the last, well, all summer, quite frankly. Cash is outdated, it's obviously used in drugs and violence, and digital is far more convenient, but you have highlighted and alluded to on your programming that this is kind of an intensified push. Would I be right in saying that?

Yes, it is. The United States, we're noticing, the strange thing is, many places in the world are rapidly going towards Cashless. The United States, you would think with all our technology, we would have gone there much sooner, but actually we're kind of at the back end of it. But now banks are driving this for us to go Cashless. Now, there's a lot of different reasons that we'll end up there, and one of them is you can control drug cartels, you can get taxes.

You know, it's harmful for government when there's cash transactions, they can't collect taxes. But everything is going there, but articles are really appearing now how fast we're going into a Cashless society, which also must take place. The Lord promised us what this world was going to look like, and again, that's just another sign to me on how close we are. You know, Jan, I think the thing to remember is that we should be encouraged, and we need to keep pointing people to the Lord Jesus, because when we understand prophecy, our confidence in God increases, our hope increases. According to 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 58, it says that in the coming of Christ, the rapture of the church, there's this perseverance that our labor is not in vain in the Lord. It compels us on.

It should also compel us to share the gospel. Why? Because Jesus is coming as the judge of the living and the dead. This isn't a game. This isn't just like a prophetic game that we're playing.

It's not like Monopoly. It's not like we're playing cards here. This is a matter of life and death. The judgment is coming, and we should be snatching people from the fire. So I just think we need to go back and read the Bible again and be charged up, because Jesus is coming. He is building his church.

The gates of hell will not prevail against it, and he's going to glorify himself. Thank you. You can get better acquainted with my two guests. Pastor Mark Henry, pastor of Revive Brooklyn Park Church, and that's And Pastor Tom Hughes, That's 412 Church out of San Jacinto, California.

That's Calvary Chapel Church. Folks, I've tried to make the case this hour, as have my two guests, that we have been talking about a topic. Yes, it's marginalized.

Yes, it's made fun of. Yes, it's kind of been dropped in our churches. That's the most frequent email I get here at this ministry. But let me go out of the program saying this, that the Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is returning someday. The question always is, will you be ready, spiritually ready, if you call upon his name for salvation, for the forgiveness of sin, to be sealed for eternity? Do that today, as no one is guaranteed. There is a tomorrow.

Call a friend or a pastor if you're unsure of this, because it is the most important decision you will ever make. I want to thank you for listening. We will talk to you next week. You are eternal, love everlasting, reigning on high.

Holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, worthy is the Lamb who was slain. Thanks for joining us for today's Understanding the Times radio with Jan Markell. Across America and across the world wide web, we continue to report current events from a biblical perspective.

Every week this broadcast comes to you at no cost, but it costs us thousands of dollars. As we produce and distribute this program each weekend, would you consider becoming a partner with us? In an ever-changing world, men and women of faith need to keep informed. They need to be aware of current events as viewed to the lens of Scripture. Week after week, Jan Markell brings you a compelling hour of discussion to point out the dangers in today's culture and to bring hope through faith in Jesus Christ. Please consider joining us in this listener-supported ministry as our financial partner. Just write with our tax-deductible gifts to Olive Tree Ministries, Post Office Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota 55311. You can also give online at or when you phone 763-559-4444. Twenty-four hours a day, global updates with a biblical worldview are available at We look forward to hearing from you soon, and we appreciate your continued prayer support for Jan and her team. Jan Markell returns next week with another program designed to help you understand the times.
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