Laodicean Lies

The predicted doctrine of demons has entered the church today. What can we do to bring the church back to sound doctrine? Thank you for joining Understanding the Times Radio with Jan Markell.

We call this Radio for the Remnant. Today Jan talks to Dr. Gary Frazier. Both Jan Markell and Dr. Frazier have contributed chapters to Terry James' book, Deceivers, exposing evil seducers and their last day's deception. Both have written topics centered on deception in the church in these last days.

Let's join Jan and Gary. Welcome to the program and say I am revisiting the topic again of the newest Terry James book Deceivers for the Hour and I wrote a chapter in the book titled Religionist Deceivers Rampant and my guest for the hour Dr. Gary Frazier wrote a chapter titled Laodicean Lies and the two topics obviously cross over so we are basically spending our time talking about I think it would get down to deception in the church and church issues are the number one topic that comes into this ministry by email particularly and the dilemma that people cannot find at church is huge. There are many reasons for this and I'll touch on some of those throughout the program but I want to welcome back to Understanding the Times Radio Dr. Gary Frazier. Dr. Frazier has been on this radio program before.

He was at one of my conferences back in 2010. Gary, welcome back. Well, thank you, Jan.

It's always a pleasure to be with you. Gary, you and I have been active in the church roughly the same length of time and since we're both writing much the same on the same topic, when did you start to see things begin to change in the church and I mean as it concerns sound doctrine or the lack of sound doctrine? Well, I think, Jan, from my perspective, having been a former pastor, which I did pastor until 1985, I had begun to see a real change taking place in the 70s but it just continued to grow as time went on and I think when you begin to understand what Jesus said in Matthew 24 about the last days, there had been increase in frequency and intensity in these end time signs. I think we're seeing that or we started seeing it a number of years ago but it's continued to snowball in these last few years. Well, my church that I grew up in and I was very active in it, they actually taught a lot about apostasy and the Bible warns about apostasy and particularly a last days type of apostasy but to be honest, Gary, I still wasn't prepared for what I began to see I would say in the 90s and I'm going to get more specific here as we go into the hour but I believe it started heavily.

We can go back to 1900 which is when it really began but I wasn't around in 1900 and I know many find that amazing. I still wasn't prepared but you know what, Christ warned that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church and then went on to predict that it would be attacked and it would be a dispenser of false doctrine and particularly in the last days. I don't think we should be surprised, correct?

No, I don't think so. I think if anyone who is a student of Scripture and understands that there is a prophetic element to the Word of God and that as there was a Genesis there is a revelation and I think when you understand that, you realize that we're seeing a progressive move that's an incremental move toward the literal fulfillment of what you just introduced our program with. The time would come when they will no longer endure a sound doctrine but gather themselves one teacher after another to tickle their ears. You know, my experience was quite honestly when I came to Christ as a six year old little boy, I was involved in a church and was taught the principles of the truths of the Word of God in a very strong church with a powerful preacher who talked about deception and liberalism and occult churches and so forth and so on. And of course as a young person I had no really idea what that was like. I had not ever experienced that so I didn't have anything to compare it with. But as the years went by, then as a young adult and as an adult I began to realize that wow, there is a huge difference in many of our quote unquote mainline Protestant denominations and that we are seeing this ever increasing amount of people, churches, denominations turning away from the truths of the Word of God.

Shocking to me. You write about the church of Laodicea. Let me just make a couple of comments about your writing and as I said, mine compliments yours and I'll get to that later. But the people of the church of Laodicea which was in Turkey were warned of the consequences of straying from their first love and you emphasized that it would be the consequences over time and Laodicea was the last of the stages of the church's reference in Revelation chapter one and the church was warned but still grew incrementally worse back then. What I found interesting in the opening pages of what you wrote about are that the church of Philadelphia, kind of the true church, and the church of Laodicea which is really, dare I say, an apostate church, certainly a lukewarm church at the very best, only lukewarm, they crossed over.

Help folks understand that. You know, one of the things that I think when you study the Scriptures carefully you begin to realize that the seven churches of the Revelation are indicative of church history in total and as a result of that, as we move through time, we find that in all those churches the letter that John was told to write these letters to the churches, well the fact of the matter is that in each one of those churches we find words of commendation, the things that they did correctly. And then also we find words of condemnation to every church except two and that was the church at Smyrna which was the suffering church and then the church of Philadelphia which was the hot-hearted Bible preaching evangelistic church that I knew in my earlier days.

And then finally there was the words that the encouragement to do the commands of what they ought to do to get back on track. Well obviously as we move fast forward, the church of Philadelphia became that great missionary-minded gospel preaching, standing for the truth of the Word of God, etc. Well those churches existed and I think there was a real move in that direction following the World War II when great evangelistic soul-willing Bible preaching churches began to pop up across this country and it was like these great missionary movements of God and lives were being touched and changed at the same time. It wasn't very long until we hit the 60s when we began to see this overlapping of that mindset of the Laodicean church which as you said a moment ago, God described them as being neither cold nor hot but lukewarm.

The result of that was he uses the word virtually that he would vomit them out. It's that church too that we have come to see where as Laodicean in the third chapter of the book of Revelation where we see Jesus pictured outside locked out of his own church knocking on the door wanting in. And so this overlapping time and we still have some great Bible preaching soul-willing truthful churches that exist today but we are being surrounded now by the Laodicean church and I really believe that that is one of the strongest indicators that we're on the threshold of the return of Jesus because what we're seeing in the churches today really just is a reminder to us that we are the terminal generation that Christ is coming soon.

Well you and I both have a message by the same title. We just gave that message of the same title in a prophecy conference in Oklahoma about being the terminal generation here. But you say one word would sum up the church of Laodicea and I'm going to have you explain what you mean here a little bit because that word you say is tolerance. How does that one word sum up Laodicea? Well the church at Laodicea was a church that tolerated anything and everything under the guise of religion. We have this mindset and I hear it quoted often by people.

They'll say moderation in all things. Well first of all that's a lie because the Bible never permits or encourages quote unquote all things. God has a single viewpoint on every issue and biblical doctrine as we study the Word of God we should be taught these things. Unfortunately today in a generation where we have the greatest access to every possible help and aid to help us understand the Word of God thoroughly we are the most ignorant generation that's ever existed almost except during the time of the Dark Ages with regard to scripture.

Certainly we could see it in modern times. So this is a generation that has bought into so many tragic lies concerning truth that the reality of it is is that we've come to where Paul says in Romans chapter one that God has given them up to a reprobate mind. Let me explain that a reprobate mind is a mind that is not capable of discerning truth. The difference between truth and error. And sadly that's where we are today because when the Bible mentions the 16th century translation King James Version it uses the word moderation. But in actuality the Greek word itself means let your sweet reasonableness be known unto all people.

It has nothing to do with the quantity of which you partake or do not partake of something. Today the people have bought into the idea that they can do everything basically that their flesh wants to do as long as they do it in moderation they're all right. You know if I were the devil I would really sell that hard and that's what he's done. You're listening to Understanding the Times Radio. I'm Jan Markello. I head on the line Dr. Gary Fraser because he's one of the contributors to the book We Carry Deceivers Exposing Evil Seducers and Their Last Days Deception. And both Dr. Fraser and I have chapters in this book talking about things that have gone haywire in the church.

And Gary I'd like to play a short clip here it's less than two minutes. It's the late Dave Hunt and he is talking about quite frankly and he passed away five six seven years ago he never thought he would live to see how bad things have gotten. When it comes to the apostasy that has gripped some of the church we certainly don't want to throw all churches in there but some of the churches. He says don't let anyone deceive you that day will not come except the falling away comes first. The apostasy comes first. So this is obviously where we're heading and in fact it's where we have to go.

Isn't that right? You can't come to the day of the Lord except the apostasy comes. So we shouldn't be on one hand we mourn and Paul wept as we noted this morning. On the other hand this is what we are to expect from Scripture.

Now I believe in imminency. I believe the rapture could occur at any moment. I believe it always could have occurred at any moment after the death of the apostles. So you say well then we've done away with imminency if the apostasy has to come first. No, the apostasy has been here from the beginning. Paul said, All they in Asia have forsaken me. Most of the Scriptures, the New Testament Scriptures were written to correct error that was already in the church were they not? And Paul as we quoted this morning he said, After mighty parting grievous woes will enter in.

Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. So I guess the question is how bad does it have to get? I don't find any Scripture that says it has to get so bad. I've been talking about this, writing about it for 25 years, and I can only say it has gotten worse than I thought. I could not have imagined how bad it is now. So Gary, I think Dave Hunt is saying, Well all right, this goes back almost to the days of the early church, but my goodness it's kind of gone off the chart here in more recent decades.

I believe that's what Dave's saying. Again, I want to come back to this, and I think our listeners need to constantly be reminded of this, that the teaching of Jesus is, it's a matter of frequency and intensity. And I want to continue to harp on that because every age has had all kinds of earthquakes, pestilence, famine, and so forth and so on, ethnic strife and all those kinds of things. But you've got to realize that while every generation, every people have experienced this for 2,000 years. But here's the kicker.

Again, it comes back to frequency and intensity. We have seen this incrementally over time. It gets worse and worse and worse. David Jeremiah wrote a book a few years ago where he said, I never thought I'd live to see, and he listed a number of different things.

The bottom line is I'm getting awfully close to the 7-0 mark. And in my lifetime, I'm seeing things now that I never dreamed I would see. Now that doesn't mean that other generations didn't feel that same way, but here's the difference. We now have Israel in their land, which is the game changer of all time, because in time Bible prophecy, as you and I both know, revolves around Israel occupying their own land again. In light of the fact that Israel is now back in their land, now we see all of these things that have begun to happen with frequency and intensity since 1948. And we can simply say of the things that Jesus mentioned, we cannot overlook the fact that in Matthew 24, the only one of those indicators that he mentioned more than once is deception. Four times he warns us in Matthew 24, watch out that no one deceives you.

Well, when you put us in the right timeframe of terminal generation, then we can expect to see the very things that our clip just mentioned a moment ago. But one of the things that I wrote about is the fact that yes, tolerance for anything and everything has moved from the mainstream into the churches to the churches put up with anything today. But there's an attitude also. And that attitude is, as I write in the book, A, in Laodicea, they came to a place that didn't need God. We're in a culture right now where in all honesty, we think any road leads to heaven. All religions are basically the same.

It doesn't matter what path you take. And that is in stark contradiction to what the word of God teaches. But in Laodicea, they also taught this idea of unconditional love and acceptance. We will accept anything because we want to unconditionally love people.

We can love people, but I want to tell you, and I want our listeners to hear me well on this, that when you love people, you must love them enough to tell them the truth. The other thing that jumped out at me, Gary Fraser, is that you suggest Laodicea abandoned the Bible for entertainment. And I say today's church is consumed with two things. They both begin with E, entertainment and experience. And I think a lot of people today are searching for those two things, entertainment and experience. And today's church, many of them, not all, many of them specialize in entertainment and experience. And my goodness, you talk about the apostasy running amok.

This is why. First of all, Jan, I couldn't agree with you more. And I do want to reiterate what you said a moment ago. In our conversation, we're not saying that every single church has come to this place of degradation, although we are surrounded by churches that are. That's why I want to go back and say there are still Philadelphia churches, but there's also this overwhelming increase in this Laodicean attitude as well. And what you said is so true, but this is kind of the way I phrased it.

And I couldn't agree with you more. Entertainment and experience are dominating so many churches today. But here's the thing that I find myself asking. When did we reach the place when Jesus was no longer enough? In other words, why is it that we feel like that when we go to church, why is it that pastors, and I'm since I am a former pastor, I'm going to pose this question. Why is it that pastors today feel this need to try to entertain people, to try to lead them to have some type of an experience? Why have we decided that Jesus and the word of God is not enough?

The inherent infallible word of God, which brings conviction, which results in repentance, which results in salvation. Why is it that we have abandoned that? I have a strange situation that's happened through the years. I go into churches and I preach a message and people flood down to the front of the church to give their life to Christ.

We've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And a pastor will say to me, why is it that this has happened and this is not my experience on a week by week basis? And my response to that is, well, first of all, I do believe that there are pastors and teachers and evangelists and we have different gifts.

And I believe that God has given me the gift of evangelism and the ability to draw the net and messages and so forth. Having said all that, one of the main reasons is that I don't think men of God are preaching the word of God and expecting God to move in the service. Isaiah 55 11 says, my word will not return void but will accomplish the purpose for which it goes forth. And so if there's not enough of the word of God being taught, the Holy Spirit doesn't have anything to use to bring conviction. It's the word of God that is sharper than a two-edged sword. And if you're not preaching it, don't expect something to happen.

It's not going to happen. Getting cute in the pulpit and trying to be everybody's buddy and trying to entertain. Listen, if that's your goal, try to get a, you know, a late night TV show or something and abandon the pulpit. God expects us to stand in the pulpit and preach the whole counsel of the word of God.

Well, here's what I want to do in my second segment, Dr. Gary Fraser. I want to talk a little bit about my own personal experience, which I know you will identify with and you'll understand when I get into it. And I also want to talk about some of the strange things that have moved into the church today. I'm talking the evangelical church. We've got some saying that the Protestant protest is over, that we can all be Catholics again. And I'm going to play a little clip of somebody who's advocating that. And he said that in front of an evangelical audience, which then applauded all of that.

So I'll get to that in just a couple of minutes. Folks, don't go away. Even though we are in the predicted times of the churches falling away from sound doctrine, it can still be heartbreaking to watch a church of many years stray from the truth of the Gospel. Thank you for trusting Olive Tree Ministries as we try to bring you the inconvenient truth every day of the year. Learn more at our website, OliveTreeViews.org. That's OliveTreeViews.org. You'll find Terry James' book in our online store, or call us central time at 763-559-4444.

Jen and Gary return in a minute. Understanding the Times 2019 is around the corner, Saturday, September 21, just outside of Minneapolis. You have your tickets yet. If not, call the Brushfire Agency at 1-888-338-5338. That's 1-888-338-5338.

Or just go online to Brushfire.com. We are selling general admission tickets for $25, and that includes a lunch. If you have purchased a ticket and cannot attend, please turn in your ticket to Brushfire so others can purchase them. Others include Dr. Robert Jeffress, Amir Sarfati, Pastor J.D. Farag, Pastor Jack Hips, Jan Markell, and Lori Cardoza-Moore. We begin at 845 a.m. on September 21 and conclude at 5 p.m. The destination is Grace Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, near Minneapolis. Even hotels are selling out, so visit our website, OliveTreeViews.org, and go to our conference page for hotel information. If you cannot journey to Minneapolis, the event will be live streamed at no cost. Consult our website for details.