Solving a Mystery: Mystery Babylon

There is a mystery in the Bible. It's called Mystery Babylon, and we'll talk about it today.

One of the portions of the book of Revelation whose meaning is hotly debated is the reference to Mystery Babylon in Chapter 17. It appears that this will be the location of the Antichrist's governmental and spiritual headquarters. Where is Mystery Babylon? Is it Jerusalem? New York? Mecca? Rome? Or will it be ancient Babylon rebuilt? Thank you for joining Understanding the Times Radio with Jan Markell.

Today, Jan spends the first half of the program with Dr. Ron Rhodes. Olive Tree Ministries is carrying his newest book, New Babylon Rising, the emerging end time world order. Babylon is the second most prominent city in the Bible. So what does Babylon represent?

We'll discuss that next. In the book of Revelation, an angel said to the Apostle John, Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot. John saw the harlot sitting on a beast with seven heads and ten horns, and he marveled with great amazement. John noticed her mysterious name written on her forehead, Babylon the Great. The angel said to John, I will tell you the mystery of the woman. Then the angel said, The woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.

And I am so glad you could join me for the program today. What comes to mind when you hear the word Babylon? It plays a critical role in the Bible, and particularly when it comes to end time Bible prophecy eschatology. And there are varying opinions on what Babylon represents.

Some even think it's a reference to New York City, which I have always had huge problems with. And I personally have leaned toward it representing a part of Europe and more specifically Rome with even a reference perhaps to the Vatican as Rome does sit on seven hills. What we do know is Babylon is going to be the seat of the Antichrist during the tribulation. My guest today for this first segment has a new book and we are carrying it. It is titled New Babylon Rising the Emerging End Time World Order and is written by Dr. Ron Rhodes, who heads reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries, written dozens of books.

He was at my conference, Understanding the Time, 2013. And when Ron Rhodes expounds on anything, I pay a lot of attention to it. Keep in mind, folks, that in the Bible Babylon is referenced 280 times, 44 times in Revelation, second only to Jerusalem. And I believe that is not by accident.

It is by design. It plays a huge role. Ron Rhodes, welcome back to the program. Thank you, Jan.

It's always good to chat with you. Well, referenced in the Bible 280 times, second only to Jerusalem, Babylon means, and I'm taking my talking points from your book, Babylon means city of confusion and war and it's portrayed as a demonic city. And I think of the city of Babel or ancient Babylon and the tower built there. And that was kind of the first effort at globalism back then.

Well, that's correct. And what you find is there's just a whole lot of contrast between Jerusalem and Babylon in the Bible. And I think it's important that we understand that today because just as you and I will one day spend eternity in an eternal city called the New Jerusalem, so this city called New Babylon, headed up by the Antichrist, will be the primary force that stands against God during the end times.

And so this is no small subject. Even if a verse just mentioned a topic one time, that would be enough for me to want to learn about it. But when you have 11 percent of the Book of Revelation dealing with Babylon, why, that's over one tenth of the whole book. So that means that we need to pay attention and understand what God wants us to understand about this city and what the implications are for us today. Well, I find it interesting, Ron, and you state in the book, of course, the thing that I find you emphasize strongly is that this New Babylon, that's the subject of your book, end time Babylon, in other words, will seek to short circuit God's purposes. And again, worth repeating, it will be the seat of Antichrist power. My goodness, Babylon did this in ancient times. And Babylon was the seat of horrible stuff going on at the beginning and at the end.

It is really a terrible place to be. Well, that's right. In fact, I'm glad you mentioned Babel, because you can actually draw some parallels to ancient Babel under Nimrod and New Babylon in the end times. Just as Nimrod was the political head of Babylon, so the Antichrist was the political head of New Babylon. And just as he promoted false religion, so the Antichrist will promote false religion. And just as Nimrod's name means rebel, so the Antichrist will be a rebel. And just as Nimrod was a hunter of human beings, so the Antichrist will hunt down Christians and Jewish people during the tribulation period.

From the very beginning, Babel or Babylon has been anti-God. And since it's such a heavy emphasis in the book of Revelation with New Babylon, then you and I as Christians need to understand it. And I must tell you, Jan, I think that this is one of the most underemphasized topics of Bible prophecy out there. There are far fewer verses, for example, that deal with the rapture, but we talk about the rapture all the time. Because the Bible talks so much about this end times force called New Babylon under the Antichrist, that's why I wrote this book.

I want to go over, and we'll have to do it briefly, and folks, I have Ron for just one segment today. So bear with us if we go lightning fast in our discussion, but let's just go over some of the options. And I read an impressive book years ago by Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast, and he felt Rome slash the Vatican would be end time Babylon.

I have gravitated to that for many, many years. Just tell me in some bullet point form why you disagree. Well, I think, first of all, the Roman Catholic Church option is a viable position, and so I respect people that hold that view. But I personally do not, because even though the Roman Catholic Church is a wealthy church, it is certainly not the global economic and commercial powerhouse that is described in Revelation 18. Furthermore, Roman Catholicism has never ruled over all the political leaders and people of the nations of the earth. And still further, if Roman Catholicism is ever destroyed, it's my view that the merchants around the world would not woefully lament, as they do when New Babylon is destroyed. And still further, Roman Catholicism does not engage in slave trade, as does New Babylon.

And I think probably the most convincing thing to me, Jan, is that there is a lot of positive evidence for Babylon being a literal city. Now I'm going to hold off commenting on that, because I have a feeling we'll touch on that later, but to me that's going to be the strongest evidence against the Roman Catholic view. But all of Rome. I think Hunt and myself and others who hold to that would say that it's all of Rome, and Rome represents Europe, and the Antichrist could very well come up out of Europe. And then I think the Vatican is sort of tagged on to those that teach that particular.

And if we have time, I'll play a clip of Dr. Ed Hindson expressing that well, at least leaning that way. It's more than the Vatican, Ron Rhodes. That's my only point. What I would say is that there's a number of differences between Rome itself and New Babylon. For example, Rome did not fall suddenly, or dramatically, or completely, or permanently, as is true of New Babylon, because New Babylon will fall in a day. Rome took an extremely long period of time to get destroyed and to go out of business, as it were. Furthermore, Rome is not located in a desert or wilderness, as the text of Revelation tells us the New Babylon will be. So further, Rome is not a seaport city, as is true of New Babylon. And even though Rome is said to have seven hills, there are various scholars who believe that a reference to eight hills or nine hills is probably more accurate of Rome. And still further, the very text in Revelation 17, 9 tells us that those seven mountains are actually seven kingdoms. And those kingdoms are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Rome, and the kingdom of the Antichrist. And the idea in that passage is that false paganized religion influenced virtually all of those empires. The way that I read Revelation 17, 9 is that it has nothing to do with supporting Rome, but rather talks about this paganized religion controlling all these different pagan nations. And I'm glad you clarified that. That was very helpful.

But I want to hit some more of the options, in other words. New York City, I've never bought into this, Dr. Ron Rhodes, but there are lots of people who do. New York City does not represent any kind of a global religion. It's not a religious system. It's not in the wilderness, et cetera, et cetera.

Don't think we have to spend a lot of time, but let's spend a minute on it anyway. Some people think that both Babylon and New York City are really rich in their dominant economical powers. They're both permeated by immorality and both have sins piled as high as the heavens. And New York does have a port. It's a port city, like New Babylon is. But you know, it can hardly be said of New York as it can be said of New Babylon that, quote, in your streets flowed the blood of the prophets and of God's holy people and the blood of people slaughtered all over the world.

I mean, when did that happen in New York? New York certainly does not represent a global religion. It's not a religious system. It's not located in a desert or wilderness. It's not engaged in slave trade.

The way that Revelation 17 and 18 describes the New Babylon bears little resemblance to New York. Couldn't agree more, actually. Let's go quickly here to Mecca, Saudi Arabia. I think may have become popular heavily thanks to one person, Joel Richardson. He's written some books and film, things like that, on Mecca and Saudi Arabia. And this doesn't require a lot of discussion, Ron.

It's just no way is Babylon Mecca or Saudi Arabia? I'm sorry. Joel Richardson is a friend of mine. I think he's a godly man.

I like him a lot. I certainly consider him to be a wise person, but I do disagree with him on this position. I think, first of all, there's going to be an Ezekiel invasion that takes out most of the Muslim world, and I don't see how an Antichrist and a New Babylon that is Islamic could rise from the ashes out of all of that. Moreover, we see that in Revelation 17 and 18 that New Babylon is a single city. It's not a city that represents a massive geographical territory such as Saudi Arabia, which Joel Richardson argues, but it's really just a single city, just like all the other cities mentioned in the book of Revelation. And furthermore, Mecca is not a seaport city.

Whatever city it is, it's got to be a seaport city, because all of the commercial goods are transported by ship. So you're right. I think there's just too many problems with the Mecca view for it to have viability. I'm going to play a real short clip. It happens to be you and Dr. Heinsohn, Mark Hitchcock, on the John Ankerberg program.

And you're discussing this, and this is just a little input from Dr. Mark Hitchcock, who was my guest here in the last week or so. I think this is the most difficult interpretation of the book of Revelation. People take Babylon to be Rome. Of course, some take it to be New York City. Preterists take it to be Jerusalem. I take it in a more literal sense to be a literal Babylon that's going to be rebuilt. The word Babylon, Babylonia, is referred to about 300 times in the Bible. It's always literal, except there is one place in 1 Peter 5.13 where Babylon does seem to be used there for the city of Rome.

To me, I think the most important thing is we see everything really come full circle. Right in the beginning, after the flood, everyone was gathered at Babylon. The city was built there by Nimrod, and really the whole world was under his control.

God scattered men over the face of the earth, and Satan, who's the master globalist, has been kind of inexorably bringing the world back together again. And we see this Babylon, whatever it is in the end, is going to be Antichrist City. It's kind of man's city, and it's going to be the final place that God destroys before the Lord Jesus comes back. And I think the main message is, when you read those chapters, Babylon is a place of materialism and sensuality and opposition to God. The main message, whatever place we identify Babylon as particularly, it's something you don't want to be identified with.

And whatever Babylon is all about, we want to be the opposite of that in our lives. If you're listening to Understanding the Times Radio, Jan Markell here, I have on the line from Texas, Dr. Ron Rhodes, who's written the book We Are Carrying. It's in my store, New Babylon Rising, The Emerging End Times World Order, New Babylon Rising.

You could give my office a call, sign up for print or e-newsletter, and you'll find it in there as well. I've read it cover to cover, and he gets into some explicit current event issues towards the end of the book. Fascinating, Ron, let's get right to the point, because you feel Babylon always refers to Babylon. And Saddam Hussein, I think he spent about a billion dollars or more trying to refurbish and rebuild ancient Babylon. It's certainly not all there yet.

I think there's made some progress. Talk to me why you feel you're taking this literally. Ancient Babylon, when the Bible refers to Babylon, it's Babylon in Iraq. Whenever the Bible mentions Israel, it's always Israel, contrary to replacement theologians who say that it's really the church. And in the same way, Babylon is always Babylon. And unless we have some kind of an explicit indication that it should be taken allegorically, we ought to take it literally.

To me, when the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up in nonsense. Now, all the other cities mentioned in the book of Revelation are literal. Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea.

Asia is mentioned. The Euphrates River is mentioned. And since all other locations mentioned in the book of Revelation are literal, it makes good sense to me to interpret Babylon as literal. Furthermore, every Old Testament reference in the Bible has it literal.

It's not a figurative thing, but it's literal. And since the book of Revelation draws heavily from the Old Testament, it stands to reason that the term Babylon is used in the same sense. Furthermore, since Babylon is mentioned in the context of being along the Euphrates River, I mean, that's a geographical landmark.

A literal city must be meant. Here's one of the most important evidences, Jan. When you look at what John wrote in Revelation 17 and 18, he draws extremely heavily from Jeremiah 50 and 51. And in that Jeremiah passage, Jeremiah speaks about a future judgment of Babylon which has not yet taken place and which will be fulfilled in the end times. And what you find in Revelation is John, point by point, using the very same language, almost to a direct quote from all the stuff that Jeremiah says in Jeremiah 50 and 51. And the thing is, Jeremiah portrayed this as the actual, literal city of Babylon. And since John borrowed so heavily from Jeremiah 50 to 51, it makes good sense that both of them are referring to the same literal Babylon. For example, both mention the golden cup.

Both mention this prostitute seated on many waters. Both of them mention the whole world being drunk by the wine of her immorality. Both mention the sudden fall of Babylon. Both mention how fire will burn up the city. Both mention how the city will be completely destroyed and will lie desolate forever.

On and on I could go. I think we have a time limitation, but the point is there's just one parallel after the other pointing to a literal Babylon. But I think your point is in the book that there's so much that has to yet be constructed in ancient Babylon or what Saddam Hussein was trying to recreate some 15 years ago. So much still must be rebuilt. Your point is that Antichrist will have the resources to rebuild it quickly, almost instantly.

I believe that would be your position. Well, that's right. I mean, Saddam Hussein did his work in a fairly short period with $1 billion of oil money.

That's right. When the Antichrist comes into power during the tribulation period, he will have access not only to unlimited funding, but to an unlimited workforce. I can tell you this, Jan, what the Antichrist wants, the Antichrist will get. And it's quite possible that, like Saddam, the oil in Iraq will be the primary source of funding for Babylon. And I believe it's strategic that the Antichrist sets up his headquarters there because he will be able to control the world's oil supplies, which will be in short supply by then. And in fact, it may motivate other countries to come after the Antichrist, like China. China is using more oil than ever. And it could be that the kings of the east attacked the Antichrist and his forces precisely because the Antichrist is choking them off from oil. As you know, and as you point out, and quite frankly, as the TV program I'm referring to with John Ankerberg points out, this whole topic of discussion is indeed being discussed and has varying opinions.

I'm going to let Dr. Ed Hindson weigh in here as well. Let's go to another question. Who is Babylon in Revelation?

It's a whole chapter that's given to that, and we've skipped that. So, what is mystery Babylon? That's one area where we're going to disagree with each other, probably.

That's what they want to hear. Many take it as literal Babylon, that Babylon will one day be rebuilt in the future, become the great commercial center of the world, become the headquarters of the Antichrist. And certainly ancient Babylon was a major evil city, etc.

But even by the time of John, it was not a major city that was having a major commercial influence in the world. I think he uses Babylon as a code word for Rome in the book of Revelation because he says it's the city that sits on seven hills, and it's the city that rules over the whole world. Rome was a city that literally ruled over the whole world at that time.

If you were a Roman citizen, you were considered a citizen of the city of Rome, not the empire. And so, because he calls it mystery Babylon, I think it's a clue that you're not supposed to take it literally. Ron Rhodes, and obviously Ed Hindson, just presents another view that is very popular. But why do you think it's called mystery Babylon? Well, that's a good question. It all hinges on the translation you use, and I like Ed a lot.

He's a good friend of mine. He does use the King James version, so he's quoting the King James where it says mystery Babylon. But you know, the majority of scholars today don't think that that's the right translation. His translation, the King James, says this, Upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery Babylon the Great. So there you have Mystery Babylon right in the text of Scripture. There's other translations like the ESV and many others that say, On her forehead was written a name of mystery, Babylon the Great. In other words, it's not Mystery Babylon, but rather it's the name itself that is considered mysterious.

If I might give a quick example just to clarify, let's consider a sentence like this. On her head was written a strange name, Kylie Wylie. Here's another sentence. On her forehead was written a name, Strange Kylie Wylie. Well, in one case, Kylie Wylie's name is viewed as strange.

In the other case, Kylie Wylie herself is said to be strange. It all hinges on where the word strange goes. In the same way in Revelation 17, 5, it all hinges as to where you place the word mystery in the text. And the King James places it in such a way that it ends up being Mystery Babylon.

That enables you to interpret Babylon allegorically. However, if it's not Mystery Babylon and it's the name itself that is considered mysterious, then Mystery Babylon is no longer on the table in terms of bringing about an allegorical interpretation. So in my thinking, the best understanding from the original Greek of this passage is that the word mystery and name belong together. And I don't want to get all Greek on you, Jan, but both name and mystery in the Greek are neuter.

That means they belong together. It's the name that is mysterious. Babylon is feminine in gender. It has nothing to do with either name or mystery. The way that I read the text is that this is not referring to some kind of a Mystery Babylon, but rather there is a mystery about Babylon. Okay. And can I tell you what it probably means?

Sure, go ahead. The fact is that a mystery in Bible times referred to something that was now being revealed but was not known in previous times. The rapture is said to be a mystery because it was first revealed in New Testament times. It wasn't revealed in Old Testament times. It's something that is revealed right now but was not revealed in the past. In the book of Revelation, Babylon is called this mother of harlots. And it's called a mystery in the sense that something about Babylon is being revealed now that wasn't known before. And what is now being revealed is that the source of all cults and false religion is Babylon. That's the new thing that's being revealed. You spend a fair amount of time, and I'm glad you did, referring to the book, New Babylon Rising, the Emerging End Time World Order.

Find it in my bookstore, give us a call. You spend a fair amount of time towards the last third of the book talking about some current things. And I would say that there are tribulation events that are casting a huge shadow on today. You reference apostasy and turning away from biblical Christianity. You reference the rise of false religions and cults and tolerance for things that we should be avoiding. You reference the rise in anti-Semitism, the escalation of the Mideast conflict, Gogmagog invasion, the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, persecution and martyrdom of Christians, the moving to a cashless society, the globalist one-world efforts.

You talk about all this and more in the book. Why are you tying all of that to the New Babylon Rising? Well, I think that what's happening today is setting the stage for the rise of New Babylon.

And that's why you and I need to be aware of it. Now, there's a rise in false Christs and false prophets, and that is setting the stage for the eventual emergence of the right-hand man of the Antichrist, the false prophet. And it's also setting the stage for the ultimate false religion that will emanate from New Babylon. In terms of false religions and cults, you and I both know that Satan is a master niche marketer of cultic ideas.

He's been doing it for a long, long time. And as we continue to progress toward the end times, these false religions and cults are setting the stage for the emergence of the false religion that will emanate from New Babylon. The same thing is true of apostasy. The more that we grow towards the end times, the more apostasy will take place in the Church with denials of God and Jesus and the true gospel, and this is opening up the idea for the perverted teachings that will come from New Babylon. There's an increase in tolerance and moral issues today, and I think that as we go deeper into the end times, this tolerance for all beliefs will make it easy for the false religion associated with New Babylon to rise unchallenged. And I think especially following the rapture of Bible-believing Christians, all who remain behind will be tolerant and open to anything that comes down the path, including this new religion associated with New Babylon.

Jen, we've got anti-Semitism that's never been higher. We know from prophetic scripture that the Antichrist will engage in a campaign to annihilate the Jews. New Babylon, too, will be a vile persecutor of the Jews, and that campaign will be directed by the Antichrist under the inspiration of Satan.

The Middle East conflict ties into all of this. We know that if it's a literal Babylon, that's right there in the Middle East in the oil fields, and I think that's a strategic location for the Antichrist, following the time when he briefly takes up headquarters in the Jerusalem Temple. We've got the Ezekiel invasion and how the stage is being set for that today, and you know, with Christians out of the picture at the rapture and with Muslims out of the picture after God destroys the Muslim forces in Ezekiel, the people who are left will be ready to embrace any new religion. Muslims won't be around to withstand it, and neither will Christians.

That greases the skids for the emergence of the false world religion. Jen, I don't know how much time I have left, but I think that you're beginning to see how these signs of the times are setting the stage for the emergence of New Babylon. And I'm so glad that you included in the book some of these signs of the times, and he does, folks. It's about a third of the book is just signs of the times. It's a fascinating read.

Again, I've read it from cover to cover, New Babylon Rising, the Emerging End Times World Order, OliveTreeViews.org, views as in viewpoint, OliveTreeViews.org. Just go to my store. Call my office if you'd like to order it. Sign up for my print or e-newsletter.

Be advertised in there as well. Ron, I'm down literally to a minute. If you want to sum up, I think you've done a wonderful job in a short time here, but you've got a minute to wrap it up. I base my book on a common principle that I've always used in prophecy, Jen, and that is that when the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense unless you end up in nonsense. And I always tell people that if you want to understand how God will fulfill prophecy in the future, take a look at how he has fulfilled prophecy in the past.

He is perfectly consistent. All the prophecies of the first coming came literally to pass. So will the prophecies about the second coming and all the events that lead up to the second coming, including the rise of New Babylon. Since over one-tenth of the book of Revelation deals with New Babylon, this is a subject we need to know about. Jerusalem is the most often mentioned city and Babylon comes in second.

The Bible could thus be termed a tale of two cities, Jerusalem and Babylon, and I explain it all in this book. He does encourage you to check it out, folks, check it out either in my bookstore by giving us a call or at your local Christian bookstore. I'm changing topics when I come back from a very short timeout. I hope you won't go away, Dr. Ron Rhodes. Thank you for all you do. How many books does this make for you now? Well, it's up in the 80s now.

Up in the 80s. Ron heads Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries. We appreciate what you're doing, Ron, so much. Thank you for joining me. We'll talk again. Thank you so much, Jen. All right.

Bye now. That's 763-559-4444. You can always write us at Olive Tree Ministries and Jan Markell, Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311. That's Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311.

All gifts are tax deductible. We'll continue our programming in just a moment. Why are you at a Prophecy Conference? Jack Hibbs gives the message in a way that is understandable, that is real. You know, have courage, stand on the Gospel, and fight. So many things Amir said brings this book to life. It was very clear, and he's a great storyteller.

I loved it. Listening to Jan and Amir and Jack Hibbs and J.D., we realized we needed to find a church that actually taught the Bible. We are selling general admission tickets for $25, and that includes a lunch. If you have purchased a ticket and cannot attend, please turn in your ticket to Brushfire so others can purchase them. Speakers include Dr. Robert Jeffress, Amir Sarfati, Pastor J.D.

Farag, Pastor Jack Hibbs, Jan Markell, and Laurie Cardoza Moore. We begin at 845 a.m. on September 21 and conclude at 5 p.m. The destination is Grace Church in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, near Minneapolis. Even hotels are selling out, so visit our website, olivetreeviews.org, and go to our conference page for hotel information. If you cannot journey to Minneapolis, the event will be live streamed at no cost.

Consult our website for details. Come and meet 5,000 like-minded remnant believers on Saturday, September 21. Learn why things aren't falling apart, they are falling into place. You sometimes must listen to programming at your leisure. Understanding the Times Radio with Jan Markell is posted to our website under Radio on Saturday morning.

You can download the oneplace.com mobile app and have the program downloaded to your devices. Or access our YouTube channel on Saturday morning where we insert images and video of our on-air discussion. Many who are visually oriented benefit from this. Now, here's Jan Markell. Of course, many of the president's apologists have attempted to turn this urgent humanitarian and moral crisis into a debate over what freshman Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez called them. The United States is running concentration camps on our southern border, and that is exactly what they are.

They are concentration camps. Those comments had set off a firestorm of both good faith and bad faith criticism, and there are legitimate reasons to object to the use of that term in the context. As many pointed out, direct allusions to, invocations of the horror of the Holocaust are always treacherous territory. And welcome back to the program.

This segment, we're changing direction just a little bit. And let me just, as I set the stage here, I'd like to quote Joel Chernoff, executive director of the Alliance for Israel Advocacy, and he says, quote, For the first time in U.S. history, there is a danger that antisemitism will become normalized and legitimized in U.S. politics via the progressive left. And he goes on to say antisemitism has existed since the founding of the country but has never been institutionally embraced by either of its two main political parties.

And boy, I would attest to that. My observation of politics over the years, both sides of the aisle, Democrat and Republican, it's been a bipartisan support of Israel until more recent years, perhaps the last 12 to 15 years. And you heard that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in a recent radio interview brazenly. I mean, she's called Israel everything imaginable. She's called it a criminal enterprise. You just heard her say that what's going on in the southern border is comparable to concentration camps, which is, of course, lunacy. An apparent long-term objective is to make anti-Israel discourse a regular and normal part of U.S. politics.

And to me, this is a shocking change. To kind of address it, I have invited for the balance of the program Laurie Cardoza Moore, founder and president of Proclaiming Justice to the Nations, PJTN. She is a pro-Israel activist who has emerged as a leading voice in the media to warn in the war on anti-Semitism and the battle to preserve the hearts and minds of America's next generation of leadership. She is on the frontline of exposing topics that rage today in America, multitude anti-Israel, anti-American, pro-Islamic agenda, replacement theology within Christianity, social justice propaganda, and the failure of the U.S. educational system and Christianity's responsibilities to the Jewish brethren. That sounds like an enormous agenda for the remaining part of my program.

We won't hit it all, but we will hit a few things anyway in the time we have. Laurie, welcome back to the program. Jan, thank you so much for having me back. It's wonderful to be here with you to talk and discuss these issues and what our solutions are as Christians. Okay, for the first time, Jews in America are wary of their future here in the U.S. and there's an emerging concern that the anti-Semitism growing so quickly and violently in Europe has now landed in the U.S. and that Jewish people are not as safe here as they have been historically. And as I introed the program, it is now in the U.S. Congress.

I'll play another clip later, but your thoughts, please? Absolutely, and Jews should be concerned that live here in America because the world is changing dramatically and the United States is no exception to the rule. It is frightening, Jan, that our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, values. I hear many Christians who talk about this being a Christian nation.

I always correct them and say, no, it's Jews and Christians that founded this nation. It was people of faith that believed in the same God, the same Bible, and unfortunately, we have lost our way as Americans. We have removed God from our schools and we are looking at the manifestation of what that impact has on so many levels.

We see the chaos going on in the home, we see the chaos in the schools, we see the indoctrination through media to reach our children and change their whole mindset. But no, we do see a rising threat of anti-Semitism and part of the problem within Christianity, if we just deal with that right now, Christianity unfortunately has a history of anti-Semitism. We can go all the way back to the early church fathers that were Gentiles that were not Jews. When the Hebrew leaders of the church started to be weeded out and more Gentile leaders, they hated the Jews and you see a lot in their early writings about their antagonism toward the Jews, talking about them being demonic and devil worshippers. They had been used to persecute during the pogroms, during the Inquisition, during the Holocaust. We see all of that throughout history.

So yes, it's a problem, Jan, and Christians have to start reading their Bible. Let me just read one of the press releases you send out. And folks, you can sign up for her e-alerts and press releases at bjtn.org, Proclaiming Justice to the Nations. And you write this, and I'm just quoting a paragraph, and you say, reflecting on all we see unfolding. By the way, folks, there's a lot unfolding in America right now, and a lot of it is not real pretty. And I think you all know what I'm referring to with some of the violence and all.

And you say reflecting on all we see unfolding. Tragically, white supremacy, Black Lives Matter, fringe group hatred, conspiracy theories, anti-Semitism, and deranged manifestos are now as familiar tropes to our vocabulary in America as the order menu at Starbucks. And you say, we have created a monster in the form of a platform where so much hatred can be concocted in secret and yet disseminated through the atmosphere with the stroke of a key to reach untold billions. Hitler would have loved the times we are living in. Swastikas, themes, images, and the same violent anti-Semitic vitriol that birthed the dawn of the Holocaust are now everywhere online, both on dedicated hate sites and the Facebook pages of college students that have been raised in Christian homes. And then you say, as we look around us, the writing is on the wall everywhere. Violence is growing against the Jews around the globe, as is anti-Semitism. The online culture has become the new wall surrounding our daily lives, and these walls, unfortunately, are too often covered in hate. You summed that up beautifully, Laurie. Appreciated that.

Oh yeah, Jan. If you look at, again, going back to the church, because my focus is reaching the Christians around the world and specifically here for this conversation in the U.S., but if you look at what's happening with the Poway shooting in Southern California, you look at what happened at Pittsburgh at the Tree of Life, these two individuals just so happened to be Christian nationalists. Now, many Christians aren't familiar with that term, but if they go back to the time of Hitler, it was socialist nationalism that Hitler pushed into power, and there were many Christians that supported Hitler. And I find that appalling, but if you go back in history and you look, the reason why that happens and why it's happening in our generation, these kids quoted New Testament scriptures to legitimize going in and murdering Jews in their place of worship. This is outrageous, and it's because they are being taught from the pulpit that replacement theology, that God has replaced the Jews and their place in history or for all time with the church. There is nothing in the text of the Bible from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation, to substantiate that position that is doctrine and traditions of men. And we are not to add or take away from the Bible, not one word. And these leaders who are teaching these young people, we know what it says in the text of scripture, it would be better for a millstone to be wrapped around their neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea.

This is where we are. If we don't start teaching our children biblical truth, to stand on biblical truth, not what is politically expedient, like what they're being taught in their classrooms every day, then we are going to lose our generation. We are required to teach our children and our children's children throughout their generations, and we have surrendered.

We have allowed the political education system in our country to usurp our responsibility as parents. And I want to go there in just a minute, but I'm not quite through with Congress yet because I think we were all blown away recently when Rashida Tlaib, she's a representative from Detroit, made the following comment. There's a kind of a calming feeling I always tell folks when I think of the Holocaust and the tragedy of the Holocaust and the fact that it was my ancestors, Palestinians, who lost their land and some lost their lives, their livelihood, the human dignity, their existence in many ways have been wiped out and some people's passport.

I mean, just all of it was in the name of trying to create a safe haven for Jews. Those comments from Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib have set off a wave of backlash tonight. The president tweeting this, Democrat Representative Tlaib is being slammed for her horrible and highly insensitive statement on the Holocaust. She obviously has tremendous hatred for Israel and the Jewish people, he writes. Can you imagine what would happen if I ever said what she said and says?

Well, Representative Tlaib went on to completely murder history over in the Holy Land because she kind of gave the credit to Israel's rebirth to the so-called Palestinian people. I'm sure you about fell out of your chair when you heard that. Oh, my gosh.

It's goibles all over again. If you repeat a lie often enough, long enough, people will believe the lie. And the problem with that, using media and these people, they have a brilliant strategist behind them. All they have to do is put out a statement.

And what happens? That statement returns, goes around the world over and over and over, and people hear it and they start ingesting it and they start believing the lie. And that's what's so dangerous because when somebody tries to challenge them, they don't get the same level of airtime to refute that so that that message goes around the earth to undo the lie that was just said. And so people start believing the lie. And this is why more and more people are starting to buy into this narrative and you see the hatred growing. But I will tell you, Jan, in the United States of America, and this is the one thing these women still don't get, is that 68 to 70 percent of Americans stand with Israel and the Jewish people against their war on terror.

That's a little dirty secret that people forget about. When you talk to the average American, because most of us are Jews or Christians, mostly Christians in the United States and then some Jews. But when you do a poll like that and you ask people what they think, the average person that's living outside of New York City, the East Coast or the West Coast, everybody else understands. We know how to think critically. We know how to look and assess the damage and whose side we should be on and what is just and what is unjust. But unfortunately, the people that are inside the Beltway, like the Three Stooges, are actually now four. We just added a fourth one. They may get it, but all they say is what they want the press to hear so that the press will repeat it over and over and over around the globe and continue to perpetuate the lies and the hatred against the Jews.

Thus, we see the rise of anti-Semitism around the globe and here in the United States of America. Laurie Cardozo-Moore, and she's my guest for this entire segment today. And she is one of my speakers at Understanding the Times 2019, Saturday, September 21st, along with pastors J.D.

Farag, Robert Jeffress, Jack Hibbs, including Amir Sarfati, yours truly, and others. If you'll just get your ticket online or call, you can call the Brushfire Agency, 1-888-338-5338. Again, that's 888-338-5338. We will live stream it at no cost. You need to visit my website, OliveTreeViews, views as in viewpoint, OliveTreeViews.org for all the live stream, all the conference info, hotel info. We've already sold out of three hotels.

We've opened up a fourth. Don't wait until the very end because seats will be gone, hotel options will be gone as well, Saturday, September 21st. And by the way, folks, we're closed captioning that event as well.

If you've got a hard of hearing loved one, we'll be providing for them at the event and online as well. Laurie, here's the thing, and I know you're involved in what I'm about to bring up. California is set to enact Resolution AB331, which will require all California high school students to take at least a one semester course in an ethnic studies-based model curriculum which consists of, get this folks, which consists of anti-Semitic and anti-Israel content in order to graduate. This will be effective a few years down the road yet.

It's perhaps three years down the road, maybe four. By the way, there are actually some who suggest this is going to be pulled in California, that they will not implement it due to the sort of the tension going on in America currently, but you can still see the mindset of the progressive left. Laurie, let me just put out, I'm going to read another one of your press releases. You say this, in the new curriculum in question, California high school students could be offered the potential of a full course of study that paints Israel and the Jewish people as part of a system of oppression and privilege that must be fought with resistance according to reviewers in the coalition notes. Laurie Cardoza-Moore, with the click of a page, students are then offered a view of Arab American studies that reads like an excerpt from a Hamas propaganda pamphlet. Should we be surprised that a trio of academics on the advisory committee who created this model curriculum are vocal anti-Semites whose vitriolic and anti-Israel positions, hatred for the Jews and outspoken bias, have been nationally well documented? You're going to perhaps participate in pushing back.

Talk to me about that. Yes, I'm actually scheduled to go and testify before the Department of Education relative to this specific topic because this is not just California. This is just one example, and I'm surprised that this is the first time California is being picked apart. Jan, you know we've been fighting this battle on curriculum, textbook, the anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, anti-American, anti-Judeo-Christian, pro-Islamic content in America's schools since 2012, when it was first discovered in a Williamson County school. What is so shocking about this is that the Department of Education for the state of California is going to make this required of all students in order to graduate. If you think about the school system today, you don't even have to pass your classes to graduate from high school. When we went to school, if we got anything less than a D, we failed.

We had to take the course over. Well, they're making this a requirement, but these students aren't required to be able to pass their academics, their math class, their science class. They can take tests and fail them, but they're still going to graduate. But these children are being forced. It is mandatory for them to take this course, to be filled with this propaganda and this indoctrination. It is the height of double standards, but it's indicative of the problem that is happening across the country. It's why, Jan, we started an initiative to mobilize parents and citizens in their local school districts to take back control of our children's education. This curriculum, if this happens, if this is mandated, other states, because remember, they always say when it starts in California, eventually it'll blow east with the Gulf Stream and it'll go. And unfortunately, we are going to see more and more schools adopting similar content.

Now, here's the other thing about this. These three anti-Semites who sit on this board and who made the decision to adopt this curriculum, they've had this in the works for several years because last year they passed a law. They had to introduce the law.

They had to find the vehicle. So they had to introduce a law in the state of California that these studies would be required. Well, now they're going to be introducing the curriculum for this required law that was passed last year. They know exactly. It's all incrementalism. They do it gradually. They think nobody's paying attention. Well, word got out on this one.

And so we have been on it. We've joined with 82 other organizations across the country condemning this. And of course, as I said, I'm going to be in California testifying next month with regards to this, to speak to the Board of Education and tell them this is propaganda. There is nothing accurate about what they're stating in this curriculum.

We don't even test. In fact, we see, just like what we talked about with these congresswomen, they can say anything. They always accuse Israel of these generalized statements, but they never give substantive proof.

Whenever I call out Ilhan Omar or Rashida Tlaib or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I quote exactly what they said. I don't make a generalized statement, oh, they're just anti-Semites. I say they're anti-Semites, and then I clarify.

They don't do that. They don't give you facts about how Israel is a supposed apartheid state. How specifically are they oppressing the Palestinian people? Well, we know recently they came out and said, oh, they're incarcerating children. Palestinian children are being incarcerated in Israel. Well, you know, we incarcerate kids in the United States, too. When they break a law, they try to kill somebody.

Or if they do, like the Menendez brothers, they were under the age of 18. We incarcerated them. But they don't explain that. They make it sound like Israel is just picking these Arab kids off the street and putting them in prison and then incarcerating them against their will because they didn't do anything.

No. Folks, these are kids that put bombs in their backpacks who allow these leaders, these terrorists, to strap bomb packs on their bodies. They knife people in the streets of Jerusalem. They run people over. They butcher little children, kids, teenagers, like what happened in Gush Etzion in Israel, just south of Jerusalem last week. It's outrageous.

But does the world either bother testing what they're saying or say, excuse me, could you give me an example of what you're talking about? Laurie is the producer of the TV program Focus on Israel. You can find that. I believe that's on Daystar. Am I correct, Laurie?

That's correct. Look up the broadcasting information on her website, again, PJTN.org. She is the founder and president of Proclaiming Justice to the Nations. And again, pro-Israel activist who's emerged as a leading voice in the media, in the war on anti-Semitism and the battle to preserve the hearts and minds of America's next generation in leadership.

She's an award winning filmmaker as well. I'm going to just go down a little bit different road here in the interest of time. If we have time, I want to hit even one more topic. But one of the biggest false teachings in the church today, and just one reason why some churches, I think, are failing today, is God cannot bless them. We've already made reference to it. If they hold the belief known as replacement theology, the church is the new Israel. Most denominations today embrace this openly.

And there are a few holdouts, thankfully. Many churches are now driven by social justice and embrace, again, the lie that Palestinians are the persecuted minority within Israel. But, Laurie Cardoza Moore, between replacement theology and social justice, Israel is being left out in the parking lot of legions of churches. This is one of my burdens because I'm working with churches almost every day of the week, one way or another. Certainly working with pastors and trying to get the message that you and I both represent into the church. Well, that's a little bit hard when the church is kind of operating under the banner of, again, replacement theology and social justice. What would you suggest to a pastor listening today? I would suggest that the pastors who have bought into this false narrative, number one, they need to ask themselves, how can they substantiate making this false accusation? Again, it's like the three congresswomen.

Give us examples. And unfortunately, these pastors do not know their Bible. They have gone through their seminaries and their seminaries have taught their doctrine and their tradition that they've handed down. Of course, some of these pastors will substantiate their position by, well, it's the Palestinian Christians that we care about and they're being persecuted by Israel.

And I have to correct them. I said, excuse me, the Palestinian Christians live in the Palestinian controlled area. There is no Israeli government. There are no Israeli police. There are no Israeli military governing over them. That is a Palestinian authority. So if Palestinians are being persecuted in Bethlehem, in the Holy Land, then one must ask oneself, who's doing the persecuting?

Because the Arabs have control over their communities. And we know from other pastors who are actually in Bethlehem who have been persecuted because they won't tow the line of the Palestinian authority. And they don't buy into this false narrative that a lot of these Western church pastors have bought into thinking that the Jews are persecuting these Christians.

It goes back to following that same narrative. Oh, it's the Jews that killed Jesus. Well, excuse me if I read my Bible right.

He knew, Yeshua, Jesus knew why he was coming to the earth. And it was the Romans because it wasn't the Jews that had control over the government authorities at the time. It was the Roman government. And the other example that she uses, it wasn't Jews who nailed people to a cross when they killed them. It was the Romans. If Jesus would have been killed by a Jewish government, they would have stoned him because that was what was in the Bible.

That's how they dealt with issues like that with traitors or what they perceived as traitors. Christians, pastors need to take a Hebrew lesson in the Bible. They are reading a Bible through Greco-Roman lenses. And you cannot understand or interpret a book that was written by Hebrews, written in Hebrew, if you're going to put a Greco-Roman spin to it. The Bible was never intended to be Greco-Romanized. It was intended to be translated so that other nations of other languages could understand it, like in Greek. But we were never to take on the Greek mindset or interpretation of the words.

It's always been Hebraic. And when we start studying from that perspective, that's when we get the picture. And it just blows the whole false narrative in this hatred, this 2000-year hatred by these pastors, by these leaders, out of the water. One more topic. You're kind of taking on the NEA, National Education Association.

I give you credit for it. And you say, when was an American teachers union deputized to become a global watchdog whose mission it is to vilify Israel and become a vehicle to push hate within their membership? And then you go on to document. You say the NEA will use existing digital communications to develop and publish resources to educate members and the general public. Again, this is referring to Israel on the apartheid, Israel, atrocities in Israel, gross violations of human rights of Palestinian children and families by the state of Israel, funded directly by the U.S. NEA will publish an article in NEA today on the work that is being done by our members and organizations fighting for the rights of the Palestinian children and families. NEA will partner with No Way to Treat a Child campaign to pressure the Israeli government to end the detention and abuse of Palestinian children. The NEA must oppose the detainment, incarceration, torture, my goodness, family separation and murder of children and their families at the hands of the U.S. domestically and globally. Laurie, I'm down to two minutes, but talk to me about your battle with the NEA.

Jan, I'm telling you this again. Are they substantiating the proof? Where's the facts to substantiate these generalized statements that they're making? They don't have them and we should be challenging them.

And we did. I wrote a letter to the NEA. I just actually got a letter back today from them. And you know what they substantiate their position on and allowing that even to come to a vote? Because here's the thing. I asked the NEA in my letter to them, where is the proof? Where is the examples that you can cite?

And why doesn't the NEA? I asked the leader, I said, do you even vet to see if these so-called accusations are legitimate? Where is the justification?

Where is the proof? But no, they are concerned about the democratic process. We want everybody to have an opportunity to present their position. And then we democratically, as a body, will vote on it to see if we want to do it or not. And I asked her, don't you check to make sure that it's actually accurate what's being presented? Are you just going to randomly allow anybody to just submit anything to take up issue and vote on for the NEA to adopt its policy for the future? And the fact that the NEA, their mission statement was to educate America's children.

Now they're taking it upon themselves to educate the world using their platform and their wealth to promote lies? The father of lies is very, very busy. Folks, come on out and meet Laurie Cardoza Moore, Saturday, September 21st, just outside of Minneapolis, Understanding the Times, 2019.

J.D. Farag, Dr. Robert Jeffress, Mir Sarfati, Jack Hibbs, yours truly, and many others. I'm going to close the program with two verses today. Psalm 31, 15 says, I trust in you, O Lord. Our times are in your hands. Is that not comforting? And in this age of uncertainty, of deceit, of denial, of disinformation, and even despair, the wonderful words of Ezekiel 33, 6. And God will be the stability of your times.

Only God, an abundance of salvation, wisdom, and knowledge. I want to thank you for listening and we will talk to you next week. Thank you for supporting this radio outreach now in our 19th year as we are now just weeks away from the Understanding the Times, 2019 conference. Remember, if you have a ticket and cannot attend, call the Brushfire Agency and inform them so that your ticket does not go unused. Call 888-338-5338. That's 1-888-338-5338.

There are still tickets remaining, but they are going quickly for our event that is September 21st. Check our website, OliveTreeViews.org. That's OliveTreeViews.org for all conference details. You can reach us by phone central time at 763-559-4444. That's 763-559-4444. Thank you for trusting this ministry and this radio outreach in the age of deceit, deception, denial, and doubt. We're here to remind you to look up and to know that everything is falling into place.