Share This Episode
Understanding The Times Jan Markell Logo

Descending Delusion

Understanding The Times / Jan Markell
The Truth Network Radio
November 9, 2019 7:00 am

Descending Delusion

Understanding The Times / Jan Markell

On-Demand Podcasts NEW!

This broadcaster has 184 podcast archives available on-demand.

Broadcaster's Links

Keep up-to-date with this broadcaster on social media and their website.

November 9, 2019 7:00 am

To support this ministry financially, visit:

The Christian Worldview
David Wheaton
The Christian Worldview
David Wheaton
Matt Slick Live!
Matt Slick
Matt Slick Live!
Matt Slick
Matt Slick Live!
Matt Slick

Delusion means that those who are deceived deal with deception in the church issues.

First up is author Jeff Kinley. Yes, we have the sending dark delusion, but it is predicted for a last day scenario. The Bible refers to this theme more than almost any other.

Here is Jan Markell. is that many evangelicals are now beginning to believe things about God that are not true. In fact a recent poll said that 57% of evangelicals believe that there's more than one way to get into Heaven. And you think, well gosh how in the world can the people in the church believe this type of thing? But what we're seeing is we're beginning to see this falling away with celebrity pastors, with famous authors, with celebrity bloggers that are writing things that are beginning to deny some of the core doctrines of the Christian faith. Descending dark delusion. Descending dark delusion. Yes, that sounds a bit ominous and quite frankly I think some of the substance is a bit ominous. And in the last days a world delusion will come upon the earth and those who are deceived won't even be aware that they are deceived. The nature of deception is that you don't know you're being deceived. Does that sound familiar today? So with the church still present on earth as it is and as we are pre-Rapture, we put a lid on some of the delusion, but we can see it growing on a daily basis. When you have seminary students in New York praying and confessing sins to plants, you know society is in a state of very, very strong delusion. Jeff Kinley, welcome back to the program.

Jan, great to be with you as always. You know deception issues are very near and dear to your heart, mine too for that matter. The rampant apostasy today in so many churches, how would you contrast the deception now in the church age with the deception that will be reigning during the tribulation under the Antichrist?

And take your time to clarify this please. That's a great question. The Bible tells us in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 that there's coming a grand deception and a global delusion that's going to fall on the planet. It's very interesting how Paul kind of maps this out, Jan. He begins by saying that there's going to be the man of sin being revealed during the tribulation period. And it says in verse 9 of chapter 2 in 2 Thessalonians says, that is the one who's coming in accordance with the activity of Satan with all power and signs and false wonders and with all the deception of wickedness. So we know that Satan is going to present his man to the world in a deceptive fashion. And of course we know Satan is the father of lies. He's the king of deception and he's going to use these signs and these wonders and false miracles. And in fact, Jan, the entire tribulation is going to be a resurgence of the supernatural once again.

You know, we really don't see these types of things happening in the church age right now, but there's going to be a rebirth of the supernatural and it's going to come through God, but it's also going to come through Satan as well. And then that deception is going to lead to what the Bible calls a deluding influence. And interestingly, the Bible says that it's God who sends the deluding influence upon the earth so that they might believe what is false.

But it tells us why he does that, Jan. It says in order that they may all be judged who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness. So really the domino effect or the chain effect we see here is that rejection of Christ now leads to deception now, to deception later, and ultimately to a complete delusion where, as you mentioned, they don't even know that they don't know. Yeah, they're under this blindness. That's why they readily just believe whatever Satan tells them. And I think we see that happening right now as we're ramping up to Revelation. The whole world is falling under the beginnings of this delusion.

Just let me personalize that for a moment here, Jeff Kinley. We recently, in my hometown here of Minneapolis, President Trump came for a campaign speech some weeks ago now. You talk about lawlessness, delusion. I mean, the spirit of Antichrist was present. I mean, outside, not in the building. In the building where he was speaking, it was very orderly and I'm told it was just a wonderful, encouraging evening. But the point is the spirit of Antichrist was outside because the lawlessness, the anarchy literally came to my hometown.

The violence, the rioting, the out of control behavior would seem to be the order of the day. And those people were deluded and they don't know they're deceived. I don't believe they do.

No, they don't. And it really begins with, as a culture, you know, Paul outlines this for us in Romans 1, how we basically extract God from the equation and shove him out of our lifestyles and of our government, our education, of everything. Then these things follow godlessness. We have to come up with new ideas about how we came to be.

We invent evolution. And then it goes on to affect humanity. I think we're seeing that type of deception in all of this gender confusion that's going on in our world today. People are growing up and it's not so much that they don't know what they're supposed to be. They don't even know who they are, whether they're a man or a woman.

And of course, the world has just embraced this whole idea of transgender, just thinking that you're something else alters reality itself somehow. Of course, we know from sound reasoning and logic and common sense in the Bible that that's not true. But we look at the world and we go, how are you people with these glassy-eyed looks just believing all these lies? And yet that is the trickery and the schemes of the devil.

And he is at work because he knows his time is short. So when the church is gone, let's clarify, we've got gross confusion, delusion even right now in the church age, but when the church is gone, there will be no one to speak up for sanity, for common sense, for righteous issues. Again, we get to the issues of the tribulation.

Of course, the church is not there, so it's going to be a little bit difficult. And I hope in heaven, quite frankly, Jeff, I hope in heaven we don't even know what's going on down here. But with the church gone, can you imagine no one to speak up for anything that makes sense? Well, it is literally unimaginable.

Unimaginable. And even your listeners right now, if you could just picture in your mind a time when there is not a single believer in Jesus Christ on this entire planet, at least for a time. And what the depth of the void that's going to be there at that time in terms of morality, as you said, and just know God consciousness, there's going to be massive chaos and catastrophe, as much like the days of Noah as it can possibly be.

That whole idea. And I tell Christians all the time that you don't realize the difference that we make on this planet just by being here, just by having the presence of the bride of Christ on the planet. And yet still we have this tsunami of sin and evil that's coming into our land and all over the globe.

But at the same time, when we're gone, nothing is left to stop it. Bringing it back to the church for a few minutes of discussion. If there's delusion going on today, some of it is coming out of our churches, thankfully not all of them. And I always like to clarify that because there are so many pastors who are trying to hold the truth.

And very frankly, there are many who aren't holding to truth. Did you think that you would see, let's just confine it to the church for a few minutes here. Let's just say the delusion that is prominent today get this bad this fast.

No, it's amazing. And I think the phenomenon that we're witnessing right now, Jan, is that we're seeing the spirit of the age infiltrate the church. Exactly what Paul warned against, this whole idea of all roads lead to God, that truth is subjective, that morality is malleable, that the Bible really is just kind of a general guidebook kind of thing. And we're seeing that in the church to the point to where, in the church now, we're developing our theology and our beliefs about God exactly the same way that the world is developing their beliefs about who they are. In other words, it's how I feel.

It's what makes me happy. If it exalts self, it gives me a sense of self-empowerment, then I'll embrace that even if the Bible says that's not true. And so the same spirit out there in the world we find in the church. And that's why, quite frankly, the church is really asleep because there's so much Biblical illiteracy in the church right now that people don't even know where to go to find out what the truth is. And, of course, if you don't have pastors who are systematically teaching through the Bible and deepening the root systems of these believers, then, Jan, we're just left to the wind, as Paul says in Ephesians chapter 4. We're being blown back and forth. We don't even know what we believe.

We just have to say, well, I believe, and truth becomes what is truth to you. And so we're seeing that happen in the church right now, and that's, quite frankly, why the church is in the state she's in. If you just join me, you're listening to Understanding the Times Radio, talking to author Jeff Kinley, playing off of Terry James' newest book titled, Discerners Analyzing Converging Prophetic Signs for the End of Days. Jeff Kinley's chapter title is Descending Dark Delusion.

I want to play a quick clip here, and it's Pastor Barry Stagner, and I'm playing it just because he's giving a message titled, well, it's a message on this delusion of our day, and I think it complements our discussion. Do we have a world today that is in love with unrighteousness and protecting, promoting, and even defending it? Now, listen, the word translated delusion from the Greek can mean fraud or fraudulence.

It can also mean deceit or error. Do we live in a time, there'll be lots of questions today, by the way, do we live in a time where fraudulence is rampant? Do we live in an age filled with deception and error?

Do we live in a time where most people will not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved? Yes, therefore, I submit to you that the world is primed and ready for, and here's our title, the strong delusion. The strong delusion is not only happening in our day, but it's going to reach its zenith under the rule of the Antichrist.

Okay, that was Pastor Barry Stagner, Calvary Chapel, Tustin, California. And I think the purpose of the segment that we're doing today with Jeff Kinley is, number one, what's going on in the world today is setting the stage for what's coming. We see sort of a lawlessness, anarchy, we see deception, delusion in the world and in the church. And we're kind of focusing a little bit in the church, at least for the first part of this segment.

Jeff, let me move ahead here just a little bit. We're talking about some of the churches and the questions and the emails I get, and I think you get them too, is what can I do? My pastor's not preaching, let's say, the truth. I've visited many churches in my area, at least all those that are options for me to attend. And then I think the greater question, let me get to that in just a minute, is when is it time to leave my church? But first, what do they do? The pulpit is not preaching the truth.

Approach the leadership of the church. What if the leadership just blows them off? And I hear from these people all the time, and basically they're crying out for help. I call this group the remnant, and not to make it some exclusive group, but they're really the remnant of believers.

What do I call them? They want to stand for Christ in the marketplace. They want to know what to believe. They want to know how to defend their faith. And they're crying out for people to teach them.

And quite frankly, this is happening all over the world, these emails that I get. But here's what I say to them. Number one is that you have to be willing to be a change agent if God has you there for a purpose. In other words, appeal first to your pastor. Go to your pastor. Meet with him. Tell him your concerns. Don't threaten him. Don't attack him, but merely share your heart, your passion, your burden for the church, for the Word of God. Be willing to give him some good, solid material, some books that he might be interested in. Pastors are typically readers, and so that's a great way to reach out to him. Connect him to some other godly Bible-teaching pastors and say, hey, check out this guy's ministry. It might be an encouragement to you.

So that's the first thing I would say would be to appeal to him. And then secondly, if you run into a stone wall there, then ask yourself this question before you leave the church. Can I work within this system? In other words, is there a ministry structure set up within my church where I can teach a Sunday school class or lead a Bible study or a small group or even volunteer in some different ministries in the church where I can have a sphere of influence for the gospel, for the Word of God? And I know, quite frankly, Jan, a lot of people who have a little more tolerance level than I do who have been able to stay in certain denominational churches where, denominationally, they may not be as orthodox as they once were, but these people see themselves as missionaries to the church.

And it takes a certain type of person to do that, but I believe it can happen. And then another thing that I tell them, Jan, is, hey, listen, you can start your own ministry. You can have your own small group Bible study at home. You can have an online presence for the Lord. You can partner with like-minded ministries like Olive Tree Ministries, like my ministry, like others that you've had on your program.

Pray for them, support them financially, help them spread the word, attend their events and conferences, and know that you're not alone in this thing. Believers all over the world have this concern for the church, and yet you make it to the point where it becomes a conscience issue for you to stay week by week by week under unbiblical communication and teaching and that type of thing. And I think there does come a time where you have to say, you know what, I'm going to have to leave my church so that I can go into ministry or so that I can find somewhere that teaches me the Word of God. And your church, for a little while, might be somebody online, hopefully not for long, but you need to continue to search for that person who faithfully preaches the Word of God. And I do hear from, I would have to say hundreds and hundreds who are now attending church online for various reasons. Again, they may have visited every option in their hometown.

Maybe that's three, four, five, ten, but they've tried them all. So now they are online. Jeff Kinley, what's the best website for you? It's, very simple., and that's K-I-N-L-E-Y, Obviously, what I've heard you just say, and what you've just said, is there does come a time when it may be time to leave a church because of the topic that we're talking about for this segment. Strong Delusion has entered in. It's entered into society, it's entered in just about everywhere. Entertainment, now it's entered into the church.

It is time, perhaps, to leave. Yeah, and I think one of the ways to help someone discern whether or not that's happening in their church is just kind of do a survey of sort of the spirit of the church, the personality of the church. Is the church simply there to help you have a happy life, to help you get through your problems, to just teach you how to be a parent and that kind of thing? Or is it really teaching you what God says about life? Is the pastor opening the Bible? Are people around you opening their Bibles? Are we studying the Bible? Are we just seeing verses on a screen? Are we really engaging corporately the voice of God from the Scripture? And I think that's one of the things that's missing today because, quite frankly, Jan, what pastors are doing is they're in an effort to try and, quote, unquote, reach their communities. They're dumbing down the Gospel to the point to where if you come to church and you become a Christian, well, why are you even changing your life at all?

Because your life remains the same, and he just tells you how to have all these self-help programs in your life. I mean, I want to hear about the Gospel, discipleship. Tell me how to be a more holy person. Tell me how to be a godly parent or a godly husband.

And yet we're not seeing that in a lot of churches. So some people get to the point where they say, you know what, I've got to have meat. I'm just tired of being spoon-fed.

You're chewing up the food ahead of time for me. I want to be challenged in my Christian life. So there comes a time when you just have to say enough is enough. I'm going to have to go outside or to another place to find that spiritual nourishment. And listen, in the end, each believer stands before God to answer for that. So we have to make decisions for our families.

And you're not going to get everything you want in every church, but you have to make a hard decision that the teaching of the Word of God with love and truth, that's the church you're looking for. Talking to Jeff Kinley for this segment, and he does have a chapter in Terry James' new book, Discerners. The chapter is titled Descending Dark Delusion.

And Jeff, I just want to head down a little different path here, but it's in your chapter. You say that divine judgment is on America in part due to the celebration. I mean, let's be blunt here, of all things aberrant. You're even wondering what's coming next. I think we're all wondering what's coming next.

Are we going to be celebrating pedophilia next in the Western world? And then you talk about abandonment wrath of Romans 1.28, and you feel that has fallen on America now. Why don't you expound on that for just a moment?

Well, absolutely. And Paul so brilliantly, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, lays this out for us, just the pattern and the process of God's abandonment wrath. You know, we think, has God judged America?

Is he judging America? We think about cataclysmic events, that type of thing. But really, his wrath is on us right now because of the fact that, as we look through Romans 1, you see that we've rejected God as creator. We're substituting him as creator with other ideas, other theories.

Scripture says, because of that, you think you're really wise, but you're nothing more than morons, is the Greek word there. And then he proceeds with 3 abandonment judgments, 3 handing overs of humanity and of a culture. And again, it's based on our rejection of God. We turn and we begin to pursue our own degrading passions. We see the sexual revolution in Romans 1, the homosexual revolution. And then in the end, God just says, you know what?

I'm done. And he hands over a culture to let that tsunami of sin continue to break those barriers. And it says that people get to the point where they become haters of God.

And you know, we're seeing down in our culture right now that any time you stand up for truth or just stand up for just common sense morality, people will hate you with a vitriol hatred. I mean, just something as simple as Chick-fil-A being closed on Sundays and standing for traditional marriage. I mean, they have suffered so much from the godless left just because of that simple view, but it goes much further than that.

The whole point is, is there is a judicial handing over in the Greek where God says, I will give you to slavery to yourself and I'll let you be in those chains. So people ask me, you know, Jeff, can America be saved? And I tell them, look, here's the thing. Don't trust in our political leaders to save America. The only saving of America is going to be Jesus Christ through the church and the gospel being presented. But we have to know that once we're under this abandonment wrath, we as a country might not be saved, but I am very sure, Jan, that Americans can be saved. We need to focus in on being the light of the gospel in our communities and telling the truth, even though, quite frankly, it's going to cost you a raise, it's going to cost you a promotion, it's going to cost you maybe getting accepted to that school.

It may get you kicked out of that school, but we have to stand for the truth. And I think in that sense, Jan, we're very much like those early first century Christians living under a pagan Roman government. While there may be some things right now that are in our favor in this current administration, make no mistake about it, the culture is still building against it.

Oh, yes. So how does the church then cope in the midst of abandonment wrath? The result of this is this descending dark delusion, which is the title of your chapter. But the church somehow has to cope if, in fact, we're in abandonment wrath. We may be.

I think if we're not, we're going to be there pretty darn fast. What's the church to do about that? Just be salt and light and delay the decay? We are delaying the ultimate decay.

That's true. But I think Paul lays it out very clearly for us in 1 Corinthians chapter 1 when he says, when I came to you, it wasn't in this persuasive speech, but it was in the power of the Holy Spirit. In other words, Paul, when he preached and established these churches, he said, I want you to be grounded in the Word of God.

I want you to be close to one another, and I want you to be a light in your community. And really, the way that happens today, Jan, is that we as the church, as persecution begins to continually encroach upon the church, we're going to find ourselves pressed in together as true believers. And the false believers will be weeded out.

They're going to leave because of persecution, like Mark 4 says in the parable of the sower and the soils. But we as believers have got to bond together. We have to draw our strength from one another. We have to encourage one another all the more, as Hebrews 10 says, as we see the day approaching. So I think that's one of the things we have to do is to come together to encourage one another. We have to make sure we individually are grounded in the Word of God, and then we stand strong and we take what the world sends to us because we will go through tribulation but not the tribulation that is coming. And Jesus says, take courage. I have overcome the world, and know that we can overcome sin in this culture.

But we have to be together, we have to stay together, and we have to penetrate the gospel into society. You can find Terry James' book, Discerners, in my online store, The complete title is Discerners, Analyzing Converging Prophetic Science for the End of Days. And I'd like to take probably one minute, and I'd like to read something that just came online. Hal Lindsey wrote it, and Hal's book, Late Great Planet, affected me as a young person.

Kind of set me on the right course in life, to be real blunt. Hal writes, this is just in the last few days, much of the world right now, confusion and delusion reign. And then he says, I mean deep basic levels of confusion. Perhaps the most obvious would be the millions who are confused about their sexual identity. The science of gender no longer holds.

It's not a question of XX or XY chromosomes or any of the obvious scientific differences between male and female. It's all about feelings, and those feelings have been purposely confused by educators, entertainers, advertisers, and others. And then he says, at school young people are propagandized to believe Islam is a religion of love and Christianity is a religion of hate. Schools now openly teach kids to judge others according to race. Virtue has become something you signal to others, not righteousness or moral excellence.

Children are subjected to Drag Queen Story Hour in local libraries, and it's even celebrated in national television commercials. I'll read one more paragraph. Good is called evil and evil is called good. Followers of Jesus are increasingly seen as dangerous. A major presidential candidate recently called for churches to either come into alignment with his moral beliefs or lose their tax exempt status.

Franklin Graham said that as a result of such pressure, there will be a lot of Christians who unfortunately will bow down and give in, and many already have. Jeff Kinley, you actually have a book coming out in the spring. Give me the title of that forthcoming book. Yeah, it's called Interview with the Antichrist. Yep, I'm very intrigued with it, and you and I have talked about it off air, and I'm down here just to a couple of minutes.

But I want to ask you a question. We're diverting here just a little bit. Do you feel he could be waiting in the wings? And my take on this is that every generation has had a candidate for the Antichrist waiting in the wings. What is your thought?

I think you're spot on. In fact, because Satan is not privy to God's timetable on the rapture, then he has to have a candidate ready and being groomed in every generation. I think he did that during World War II with Hitler.

I think he's done it in the past as well. And so Satan sort of floats out some candidates from time to time as we look at different leaders that have been visible. Some obviously we've not seen, but some that have been visible, we've seen, oh, this guy is an Antichrist-like character over here in a different fashion as we see it described in Scripture. So yes, I think that right now, could the Antichrist be alive?

Absolutely. You know why? Because the rapture could happen today.

That's why. Yeah, and I was just looking at a headline here this morning, and it showed all of the countries in the world where they're currently, it's not just sort of dissension going on. I mean, it's literal rioting to the point of bloodshed and loss of life because of anarchy, lawlessness, rioting, and I opened the program talking about what happened in my hometown of Minneapolis a few weeks ago when President Trump was here. My only point is, you could just see this and sense the spirit of the Antichrist just about in every country of the world, some places far worse than us. Look at the Middle East, look at parts of Africa, but more and more, it's the Western world, it's America and Europe. Yeah, well, and that's the point, is that in the midst of chaos and certainty and just a sense of not knowing where we are in the world, volatility going on, the world is crying out for a savior.

Yes. And the devil is about to give them one in the Antichrist. Very well said. That's really the point of my book, is describing what that might look like from scripture. Well, that's a book that's coming out in the spring, folks. We'll talk more about that at that time. In the meantime, we've been talking about Jeff Kinley's chapter in the Discerners book.

The title is Descending Dark Delusion, and you can find that in my bookstore online. You can call us, you can sign up for my newsletters. We'll have the book promoted and an opportunity to purchase it in my e-newsletter, print newsletter, et cetera. And you can learn a lot more about Jeff at, Jeff, thanks for all you do. We will stay in touch, and I'm anxious to get a hold of your book next spring, and we'll talk about it then. Look forward to it, Jan. Thanks, pleasure as always. All right. Bye now. Back in just a couple of minutes. Don't go away. 55311. That's Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311. Thank you for supporting this radio outreach on almost 850 radio stations with your tax-deductible gifts. More with Jan Markell in a moment.

Welcome to Understanding the Times 2019. Joey, where are you from? I'm from Downingtown, Pennsylvania. I'm from Chicago, Illinois. We're from Still Bay in South Africa. Orlando, Florida. Alco, Nevada.

The great state of Texas. I'm with Deb and Ginger, and they have made this a girls' day out. Yes, we have. We've been coming for about 20 years. Is this your first time here? It's my second time. How many conferences have you been to? Three.

I think four or five. No, this is our first trip here to Minneapolis, and strangely enough, we love the weather. The minute we leave, we're looking forward to next year. What struck you most? How relevant this conference is and how relatable it is to our everyday lives. I had no idea that so many pastors didn't believe in the rapture and that 98 percent of them ignore the prophecies in the Bible.

I wasn't aware of any of these things a year ago. I think the thing that's impacted me the most is the speakers that I hear today. It's just really exciting to see them in person. I listen to them all the time, so I feel like I know them.

I would crawl through broken glass to make this conference. Where there is no revelation from God, the people become borrowed. They become wild. They become unrestrained.

They get out of control. What I would suggest to you, as the world has ignored God, they get farther out of control. But as we ignore the word of God, the church itself loses its more in it, loses its rootedness in Christ, and we are suffering from that. We've got to go back to the Bible. We've got to go back to the Bible, listen to the Lord Jesus, and follow Him with all of our heart, soul, and mind. Since you lead busy lives, you can catch Understanding the Times Radio with Jan Markell at your convenience on our website,, at, where you can tap into their mobile app, and on our YouTube channel under Jan Markell and Olive Tree Ministries.

We insert images and video into our radio YouTubes for those who are visually oriented. Let's return to Jan Markell as she changes topics for the rest of the hour. And welcome back.

I want to just say a word or two here about our conference back in late September. Remember, you really need to look into the DVDs or CDs. J.D.

Farag, Dr. Robert Jeffress, Samir Sarafati, Pastor Jack Hibbs, yours truly, Laurie Cardoza Moore. A complete set of DVDs for $35 plus six shipping in the U.S., $30 for CDs plus six shipping in the U.S., or order online if you're from out of the country. A beautiful gift because they're professionally packaged, high definition, and I think you'll really enjoy them.

An excellent gift for those you love. I need to move on here. I will say, by the way, we've set a date for September 26, 2020. We'll give you more information later because I want to move into the closing segment of the program today. And I'm staying a little bit in the genre of delusion, some doctrine that is troubling, and quite frankly, kind of like to consider some doctrine that has grabbed headlines, shall I say, in 2019. I might call it some dangerous doctrinal trends in the church. And I'm going to start with what happened in the Evangelical Free Church. They dropped the requirement of premillennialism. That goes back to June 19, 2019. The E.Free Church of America voted to remove the word premillennial from their statement of faith.

They replaced the word with glorious return, anticipating the glorious return rather than the premillennial return of our Lord Jesus. Quite frankly, I was a member of the E.Free for 10 years, solid prophecy teaching church in the Minneapolis area. I was a bit shocked when this happened back in June. I'm assuming that not every E.Free leader or pastor was happy with that vote back on June the 19th.

What are the consequences when something like this happens? So I invited in studio with me a local pastor. He happens to be on my advisory board. Pastor Mark Henry is a pastor of an E.Free church, Brooklyn Park E.Free.

They changed the name to Revive Church in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota, northwest suburb of the Twin Cities. Pastor Mark, welcome back to the studio. Jan, it's great to be with you today. What are the consequences of something like this? Removing the word premillennial, inserting the word glorious return? I'm glad it's at least glorious return.

There are still some consequences. Yeah, Jan, just let me say this by way of introduction. I'm new to the E.Free family. We've been part of the E.Free family for about four years. It's a great family. There's lots of really good, godly guys. I love the number of the key leaders and so forth.

I want to say that right up front. I was heartbroken when I joined the E.Free, took this pastorate and heard that this was coming because the implications are huge. As we remove that premillennial statement, it opens the door for the E.Free family to go ahead and embrace by conscience the individual pastor or church, amillennialism, postmillennialism, variations of those. Once that happens in the area of hermeneutics, where we don't take some of these passages in a literal fashion, for example, the Abrahamic Covenant in a literal fashion with real land and ethnic Israel has a future and Jesus coming for a thousand years, Revelation 20. Once that hermeneutical issue happens, there's long-term effects.

Those things really scare me. Premillennialism is the belief that Jesus returns to earth at the end of the seven-year tribulation, establishes a 1,000-year rule based in Jerusalem with a restored Israel, that this millennial reign of Jesus occurs before the eternal state, Revelation 21, 22, eternal state, be the new heavens and the new earth. Let me just refer to an online writer who's written about this, I respect Jonathan Brentner. He says, I believe the members voting in favor of removing premillennial from their statement of beliefs made their decision on the basis of some false assumption. Number one, premillennialism is not an essential doctrine. Number two, amillennialism beliefs are biblically sound. And number three, amillennialism does not lead to a further erosion of the faith. Let's talk for a minute about amillennialism.

This is very problematic, at least to you and to me and to a lot of my listeners. Amillennialism does not take things literally. It would compromise Israel's end-time role. It certainly is inviting replacement theology. The church is the new Israel.

As you said, there are some other issues. There's post-millennialism. Is this going to invite preterism, all prophecies, history? How about kingdom now, dominionism? These are some of the other theologies that now can creep in to a denomination that I have loved for so many years.

Yeah, Jan, that's the door. And once you open the door, the implications become huge. And if you look historically at those who have embraced Reformed theology, not only for a mitigation of the promises of God and the Scriptures, that's significant enough in and of itself. But then if you start thinking about how they relate to Israel, for example, Presbyterian Church USA and United Methodist Church have been part of the divestment of Israel. We're going to see, with this Pandora box opening, that happening in the evangelical world in a way we haven't seen, where we've historically been pro-Israel, expecting God to do something great there. Israel is back in the land by the providence and goodness of God.

We're going to see the erosion of that. You know some gentlemen in the Evangelical Free Church of America who are premillennial yet voted for this. Yeah, the day the vote took place, I wasn't on the floor. I purposed not to be there because I knew it was going to pass.

And I didn't want to be there and be heartbroken. Seventy-nine percent of those there in company voted in favor of it. Let me just say, this 21 percent said no. And I think that's significant. It's a significant statement. I don't know what that means. Is there going to be a new denominational group started from them?

Some are talking about that. I do know that there are different men that I'm aware of in the E-Free movement who are premillennial, but because they see this as a secondary issue, they said, we want to open the door here on this. I talked at length with a number of them trying to convince them otherwise. Well, I'm told that the founders of the E-Free, going all the way back to 1950, felt that premillennial was essential.

You and I do as well. As you've just said, there were premill pastors who voted in favor of this. Let me just read something out of Christianity Today here. And this is quoting Evangelical Free Church in America.

And they say in this article, we say that we major on the majors and minor on the minors. This is from an internal document of the Evangelical Free Church. The denomination noted that they did not take a stance on the Reform versus Arminian view of conversion, the age of the earth, infant versus adult baptism, and whether the gifts of the Spirit had ceased or were still active.

In light of that, again, this is E-Free. We believe there is a significant inconsistency in continuing to include premillennialism as a required theological position when it is clear that the nature of the millennium is one of those doctrines over which theologians, equally knowledgeable, equally committed to the Bible, and equally evangelical, have disagreed through the history of the Church. This is Evangelical Free Church in America. And then they say premillennialism is clearly a minority position among evangelical believers.

Is that true? You know, Jan, I think that probably is true in the current environment in America. I think it wasn't true necessarily among evangelicals. Now, again, the question is how do you determine evangelical? Again, we start defining terms definitely in Christendom through history, but now that's some who actually are believing in Jesus and some who have religiosity. The amillennial view has probably been the major view held.

Doesn't mean it's right. We've got to get people back to the Bible. My friends, the Bible says, God says to Abraham, I will give you and your descendants this land. That means he's got to resurrect Abraham at this point because we know from Acts 7 verse 4 that Abraham did not receive one square foot. So he's going to be resurrected. He's going to be in the land. Jesus is going to rule and reign in Jerusalem.

That hasn't happened. You can't spiritualize it. It's clear in Scripture.

Get back to the Bible. Amillennialism would spiritualize it. The amill would spiritualize it.

Absolutely. Amillennialism, there's two different views on amillennialism, but basically it would say there is no millennium. When Christ comes, the new covenant is inaugurated. We've replaced Israel. All the blessings are in the Church. All that spiritualized. My friends, the Scripture is clear. Jesus is going to rule and reign in Jerusalem for a thousand years. Stick with the Bible.

Okay. Your denomination, at least 70% voted to leave premillennialism. 79%. Almost 80%.

Now, Dan, I would say this. Our Church has not changed the doctrinal statement. We are not going to be changing the doctrinal statement.

And there are a lot of e-free churches that are not going to be changing the doctrinal statement. Thank you for clarifying. So I want your listeners to understand that.

That's good. Let's move on to another theology that has surfaced heavily in the last year. It's not new, but it's, let's just say, kind of raising its head, and I'm going to call it an ugly head, as a matter of fact. And that is something that is known as critical race theory.

Let me just kind of summarize it. Apparently Southern Baptist Seminary is deeply into this. We have to de-center whiteness. We must read books from other cultures, preferably the black culture. They recommend that you read two books by a non-anglo person for every one book by a white person. The Church must get elders who are non-white.

Everything is racial reconciliation. I'm going to play a clip, Pastor Mark Henry, and he is my guest for this segment. And he is a local pastor in the Minneapolis area. Revive Church in Brooklyn Park.

You can learn more at I want to play a clip from the provost of the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville. His name is Matthew Hall, and he explains just what this critical race theory is. He definitely is expressing his own white guilt. I went through a pretty good college education, good seminary education, did two master's degrees at a large evangelical seminary, and really was never confronted, honestly. Maybe I was and I just missed it, but I don't recall being confronted with categories and questions of race, justice, and reconciliation, including in history classes. So when I went off to do my graduate work at a secular state university and was there confronted with those categories, but without any gospel, without any kind of Christian categories, I had to really try to connect the dots. I went off to my state university experience for grad school and started reading things in American history that frankly had never been, had to be exposed to before. It was all these experiences that I started looking in my past in the rearview mirror and realizing, man, the way I interpreted that, the way I navigated that in my community was very much a racialized lens.

So it just kind of blew up my whole world. When we talk about race, we're not talking about biology, we're talking about ideology. It's a currency, it has to do with power, it has to do with status. I am a racist. Okay, so if that freaks you out, if you think the worst thing somebody can call you is a racist, then you're not thinking biblically. Because guess what, I'm going to struggle with racism and white supremacy until the day I die and get my glorified body and a completely renewed and sanctified mind. Because I am immersed in a culture where I benefit from racism all the time. You say justice, you talk about racial justice, and white folks get very nervous.

I'll just say it, okay? Both in the church and in the culture. But I think you cannot have a conversation about racial reconciliation both within the local church or certainly in our United States context without talking about issues of justice. Racism is actually a whole system built upon allocating privileges, power, opportunities in equitable ways on the basis of race, which as we talked about is an idea. Well, once you realize that, then that helps you understand, okay, I don't think I hold on to any particular racist ideology that I think, okay, I'm better than people. But I do, once the lights kind of come on and you realize, okay, racism is actually a lot bigger than just that, you realize, oh, we're not post-racial, and we certainly have not seen the evaporation of racism in the United States. You know, you think about what are kind of the dominant institutions in American evangelicalism, whether it's the NAE, the National Association of Evangelicals, Billy Graham and everything surrounding his ministry, a lot of it is very much tied to whiteness.

And frankly, if you get really passionate about life in the womb, but you don't give a rip about life in the hood, or life in the suburbs, or a life wherever, then I don't know that you're going to have a lot of credibility, frankly. That was Matthew Hall, provost, Southern Baptist Seminary, Kentucky, talking about critical race theory. Pastor Mark Henry, I think he just called me a racist, and maybe everybody else sitting in the pews, and that we are white supremacists.

I've been in church a lot of years since I was 14 years old, I've not met a white supremacist to my knowledge. Yeah, actually what they're saying is that the whole culture of America is racist. So if you kind of think back, racism, we think of slavery, i.e.

the Civil War, and then we think about Jim Crow laws as kind of the next thing. And this is the next view, if you will, of all of society is guilty, and all of the laws, and everything is bent that direction. Now, Jan, let me say this, you and I believe what it says in Revelation chapter 20, that Jesus is saving people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, and they're going to be in heaven. You and I believe that the gospel is for every single person. And what I want to suggest to our listeners is two things.

Number one is, the first to plead his case seems right, Proverbs says, unless someone starts to ask questions. And there's a very important verse in Proverbs 14, 12, where it says, there's a way which seems right to a man, but the end is destruction. Our world is self-destructing, and Dr. Hall said it right there in the clip. He went to a secular institution, to the world, sees this theory, now brings it back to the Church, and we are talking about the world's solution for reconciliation.

This is so dangerous, this is why it's dangerous. It's the Church, the body of Christ, the Bible, the living God is the one who cares about reconciliation. Jesus Christ came into the world so we could be reconciled to God and reconciled one to another. It's theology that brings us together, the theology of the Lord Jesus Christ, the truth of the Scriptures. And Jan, let me just quickly run through a couple of things.

Go ahead. For our listeners, one is, you've got to understand that every person, whatever the tone of their skin is, we are made in the image of God, Genesis 1.26, the Imago Dei. That's the reason children who are black or white or any other color, they're valuable to God. Jesus loves the little children, and that's the reason why the Imago Dei. We're family.

We're rooted right there. And then you think about Noah, we're all descendants of Noah. We're all family again. We think about the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments express the responsibility that every person has before God, and we find everybody in the family is sinful, and therefore everyone needs one person, Jesus. Jesus said, no man shall come to the Father, but through Me, He says. And so it doesn't matter, again, your color or what your passport says or what continent you're from. I've preached on multiple continents. I've been all over Africa. I've preached to five million people in Africa. The Gospel of Jesus Christ, we've started over a hundred churches.

There are some people who say, I can't speak into this subject because of my background. And I would simply say this, the Bible says that Jesus is the one that tears down the barriers between races, unites us in Christ. Galatians 3, there's neither bond nor slave, rich or free, Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus. Jesus is the great reconciler. And when people who are white know Jesus and embrace following Him and black and any other color, we come together in the body of Christ. Jesus is ours.

Want to add anything else? This is a mushrooming situation. I would beg our friends not to look to the world for the solution, but the living God. We talk critical race theory. We can morph into another issue that has absolutely exploded in the pulpits today.

I'm getting emails all the time. We've given up the gospel of salvation for the gospel of social justice. Social justice is the new mantra in the evangelical church. It's always been in the religious left. Jim Wallace, Tony Campolo, the Pied Pipers of religious left social justice. And they've tried to shame everyone else for not being as enthusiastic about social justice as they are. So now this is kind of the new mantra in the evangelical church.

I'm sure you have encountered this with your pastor associates. Yeah, Jan. And you know, the words themselves, all of us are for social justice by just the very words themselves, right? We want liberty and justice for all. That's right there with what the scriptures say. Micah says that we are supposed to do good and love mercy and justice.

But here's the problem. Social justice by definition is about social engineering. And that social engineering, the question is who determines what is just? I think there's a couple of key verses that all of us need to keep in mind. God is the only one that is just.

All of us are sinners. God is just. That's what the scriptures teach over and over and over again.

I didn't look it up, but I would venture to say well over a hundred times God is called just throughout the scriptures. And we're told, secondly, is that God who knows right and wrong, who teaches his people justice, Proverbs chapter two, it says that he is the one who imparts understanding and what justice is. And Jan, there's a verse I think that is just absolutely critical when this comes up that all of us need to remember. It says this in scripture, Proverbs 28 five, evil men do not understand justice.

Let me say it again, Jan. Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the Lord understand all things. So when we're talking about social justice, again, when we look to the world, the world doesn't even know what justice is. It can't because it doesn't know right and wrong. And you can't know right and wrong until you know the God who knows right and wrong. And so the God who knows right and wrong, who's totally just, tells us what's right and wrong so that we can even discern what is right and wrong. It goes right back to what we said earlier.

There's a way which seems right to a man, but the end is destruction. You're listening to Understanding the Times Radio. I'm Jan Markell. Looking at some church issues for the entire hour and for the second segment of my programming, I invited Pastor Mark Henry in. He's on my advisory board. He's pastor of an e-free church that's now called Revived Church in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota. And Pastor Mark, your services are 9, 10, and 11 a.m. in Brooklyn Park? Yes, that's right, Jan. Check them out.

And you post all your messages online. I'm aware of that. Actually, I participated.

Folks, don't pass out when you hear. He had a prophecy conference a couple of years ago. I participated in that with Pastor Tom Hughes at Pastor Mark's church. Such churches do exist.

Yes, they're in the minority, but they do exist. So we're considering some troubling church trends as we kind of wind down 2019. We opened up talking about the decision of the Evangelical Free Church in America to abandon premillennialism in their statement of faith.

That has consequences, I think. Some of you may not think so. We moved on to this critical race theory, talking about social justice here. Pastor Mark, let me move on to something that is a passion of yours, and that is that our pulpits today, some of them are not calling sin a sin. Exactly a year ago, almost to the day, you and I sat in the studio and we taped a program on how the churches today are handling the homosexual issue. I think you had some pushback from that.

I did as well. And I think the question is, are we going to keep moving the envelope when it comes to these kinds of issues? I mean, are we going to be accepting pedophilia next? I mean, I don't know. Where do you think this is going?

This is a burden you have because I know we talked about it for, I think, a full hour last year. Yeah, the society is going to continue to deconstruct. The question is whether or not the church will go along with that, or will the church be holy for I am holy? And we come back to the Ten Commandments. It's not just sexuality. Oh, that's a massive part of the sins of Israel. They abandoned the Ten Commandments and they got involved in all sorts of things. It includes so much. I mean, when you think about the Ten Commandments, that has to do with theology. It has to do with adoration, reverence, time, authority, life, sexuality, property, tongue, contentment.

I mean, all those things start to come in. And here's what I see happening, Jan. We are living in a day when the church is not reading the Bible. We have more Bibles than ever and we're reading the Bible less. And as we make the mantra, maybe social justice or something else, instead of Jesus, instead of, thus says the Lord, we're seeing the wheels fall off in so many ways. Listen to this verse, Proverbs 29 18, where there is no vision, it says the people perish. Now that's the King James translation.

What that verse actually means, the Hebrew word vision, where there is no vision, means the word of revelation, where there is no revelation from God. The people become borrowed, they become wild, they become unrestrained, they get out of control. And what I would suggest to you as the world has ignored God, they get farther out of control. But as we ignore the word of God, the church itself loses its mooring, it loses its rootedness in Christ. And we are suffering from that. We got to go back to the Bible. We got to go back to the Bible, listen to the Lord Jesus and follow Him with all of our heart, soul and mind.

Probably one more issue I'm going to touch on before our time is up. Looking just at some troubling trends when it comes to theology in 2019. This really isn't a theology, Mark Henry, but it's a trend anyway. And that is the church is really being asked to consider the issue of immigration, let as many immigrants in as possible. And one of the problems with this is when the church aligns with the various immigration agencies, particularly if it's a federal or state agency, they have to sign on a dotted line, there'll be no witnessing whatsoever to any of these immigrants.

And I've done entire programs on that. You cannot share the gospel with particularly those from the Middle East, you cannot share the gospel with them. Do you feel that the church should even be taking a position on this immigration issue that's front and center now?

I mean, we've got people trying to cross our southern border on a minute by minute basis. Where is the church to be with us? So, Jan, I would suggest that Christians, the priority on this whole immigration thing is we to be about sharing Jesus with the people that God brings in our path, whether that's here, there or anywhere. But I would suggest that Christians need to understand the role of government. The role of government was to protect those that they govern. And even in the Constitution, if you think about it, it limits the federal government to security, trade, the areas of justice. Justice for all was a priority, currency. But in the area of security, securing the borders.

And I know there's lots of different views on this. I've traveled the world, I've preached the gospel around the world. Every country I've gone into, they stop me at the border, they read my passport, they ask what I'm doing, they drill me right there. There's countries I can't even get into sometimes. Friends, security is what the federal government should be doing for every nation, not just ours. I was just stopped at the Canadian border this last week. I had a lengthy conversation with the border patrol there, trying to get into Canada.

He was doing his job, he was doing the right thing. And if you look back in history, that's what governments did. The Great Wall of China, some of us have visited that. That was to keep the Mongrels from coming down and attacking the Chinese people. Hadrian's Wall in England, keeping the Scots from attacking the Roman Empire.

He said, well, I don't like the Roman Empire. I understand that, but the point was, is they built those walls for security. Israel builds walls for security. Every country has levels of walls for security. America, just like every country, is going to need to manage that for the safety and well-being of the populace. I understand the motivation by many of my Christian friends who, they just want to do something good.

Here's the problem. We don't want a social gospel, we want a Jesus gospel. A Jesus gospel affects the heart, soul, and mind, the eternal destiny, and it will affect their well-being, the physical well-being of people.

But it's not the primary message. And just like you just said, as the church becomes involved in these various political things, we give up Jesus for political activism. And I would suggest to you that the average Christian hasn't read the Bible enough to realize that there's three different brackets of authority that God's created for society of work. He's created the home, and there's a structure for husband, wife, and children. There's the structure of the church and the spiritual realm. There's the structure of government. The purpose of the government is the punishment of evildoers and the praise who do right. How do I know that?

Because I read the Bible, Romans chapter 13 and 1 Peter chapter 2. When we start trying to get the government to do something other than that, it becomes oppressive ultimately in the end for the people. I would encourage Christians today, get back with the gospel, realize that issues are going to come up in the government in all sorts of different ways.

The Constitution specifically limits government for your well-being, for our well-being, for our pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness. The excellent needs to happen. Mark Henry, thank you for coming in. I appreciate it so much. You can learn more at

It's formerly Brooklyn Park Eve Free, now called Revive Church Northwest suburb of Minneapolis. Let me just go out of the program. A little saying here that I like to use, just think you're not here by chance, but by God's choosing. He made you the unique person you are and compares you to no one else. You lack nothing that His grace can't give you. He has allowed you to be here at this time in history to fulfill His special purpose just for this generation. I want to thank you for listening and we will talk to you next week. God bless you. God bless you.
Whisper: medium.en / 2023-05-07 19:59:00 / 2023-05-07 20:23:02 / 24

Get The Truth Mobile App and Listen to your Favorite Station Anytime