Coming Next: Revival or Rapture?

Have the standards for the office of prophet changed from biblical times? The problem is there are those who are saying that there's going to be this great revival, this great awakening. And the result is that many, and we're talking about Christians, are still holding out hope in this world, which has the effect of delaying, even dismantling, any urgency concerning the Lord's soon return. Welcome to Understanding the Times Radio with Jan Markell. Radio for the Remnant brought to you by Olive Tree Ministries. Today Jan has a discussion on apologetics with two pastors, Tom Hughes and Mark Henry. First they ask, are we awaiting a revival and a spiritual awakening? Or is the next event the rapture of the church? Then they examine modern day prophets and what they got wrong in recent months. Are there new rules for being a modern day prophet?

Here is today's programming. Man, I tell you the prophetic anointing that came last night filled me with such faith for what God is about to do in the earth. Did you know we're going to see the greatest outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the history of the world? There's never been anything like what we're going to see around the world. And we get to be a part of that.

I mean, that's just, we get to be a part of it. And I'm believing for at least a billion souls to come into the kingdom in the next 10 to 20 years. I believe Asia is just going to be absolutely slammed by Holy Spirit. I was in Korea just a month or so ago, maybe a month and a half, and I had a vision of the Korean peninsula.

And it, of course, the far north is, right above North Korea, is China. And I saw this wind tunnel and that entire peninsula became a wind tunnel. And it was Holy Spirit wind blowing up through that peninsula into Asia. And God said, I'm about to release an explosion of grace.

I've never heard that phrase before. It's like, what does an explosion of grace look like? Well, we're going to see it.

We're going to find out. And welcome to the program. Say, I'm so glad you can join Understanding the Times radio today. And I'm going to be looking at some apologetics issues this hour with Pastor Tom Hughes and Pastor Mark Henry.

We'll bring them on. After I set the stage, you heard the voice of self-proclaimed prophet, Dutch Sheets, stating that a billion souls are going to come to the Lord here in the near future. Well, it kind of goes against some theology that at least my guests and I represent.

However, I want to have a discussion on it. So topic number one in the first part of the program here, is there a great awakening or revival or both here in the church age, which clearly we're in the tail end of the church age, or the other option is going to be, would that great awakening, that end time revival be limited to the tribulation? We read in Revelation 7 that those who come to faith during the tribulation, you can't even count them. There are so many coming to faith during that terrible seven-year ordeal. Many would insist that there is such a revival in the making right now, and it will escalate as we move into the very last days.

Others, which would include my two guests and myself, would believe that, again, this great revival is certainly on the horizon, but that the church is going to disappear, and the two witnesses and the 144,000 and other end time witnesses, prophets, et cetera, and angel are going to get the gospel out to the ends of the earth in an incredible way. People have been emailing me about this. First, I want to read just at least one email here by way of introduction, and I've asked that you be patient and let me set the stage here. I was in communication with Pastor Alan Langstaff. Alan is a retired, I believe, Assemblies of God pastor. I don't necessarily agree with all of Alan's theology, but we agree on the basics, and he certainly is theologically sound.

And I asked him about this issue, and his response was this, two paragraphs. He says there are people who are expecting a revival of some kind to happen in the last days, and he says the foundation scripture for this is Acts 2 17, which says, and it shall come to pass in the last days. God says that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh. Now there are those, Pastor Langstaff says, who would hold to the view that this is what happened at Pentecost, while others would see a dual fulfillment involving both Pentecost and the last days leading up to the return of Christ. Then he concludes there are others like you who see a revival coming after the rapture of the church with work among the Jews.

For what it's worth, I believe the world is going to get worse, not better. The passage of scripture that I see describing the future is Isaiah 60 one and two. Darkness will cover the earth, a deep darkness, but the Lord will arise upon you and his glory will be seen upon you. So I often see, as someone said, a revival on the platter of ruin. I see, like you, Jan, a falling away, but I also see a remnant that will display his glory.

So I went to the pre-trib research website and I read what they had to say about this. This is Dr. Thomas Ice, and I'm just reading two short paragraphs, and Tommy Ice says the phrase, ladder rain, is taken from Joel 2 23 and 28 and sometimes James 5 7, as it labeled describing an end time revival and evangelistic harvest expected by many, he says, sometime in the future. They believe the Holy Spirit will be poured out like never before. This is those who believe now in this ladder rain. The ladder rain teaching is developed from the agricultural model that a farmer needs rain at two crucial points in the growing cycle in order to produce a bountiful harvest. First, right after the seed is planted, the early rain is needed to is needed to cause the seed to germinate in order to produce a healthy crop. Second, the crop needs rain right before the harvest. It's called the ladder rain.

So the grain will produce a high yield at harvest time. Ladder rain advocates that the acts to outpouring the Holy Spirit was the early rain, but the ladder rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit will occur in the end times. Then he quotes a representative of the vineyard church, Jack Deere, and this Mr. Deere says this, what's going to happen now will transcend what Paul did, what David did for me, what Moses did, even though Moses part of the Red Sea, something greater is coming in this army and there won't be just one Moses, there'll be a numerous company. See how Revelation hints at this when it talks about the 144,000 that follow the lamb wherever he goes and no one can harm the 144,000. See, that's a multiple of 12. 12 is the number of the apostles. 12 is the apostolic government. And when you take an important number in the Bible and multiply it, that means you intensify it.

So 12,000 times 12,000 equals 144,000. That is the ultimate in apostolic government Revelation talks about. So this Jack Deere that was being quoted from the vineyard church has mixed up the church and Israel and given the role of Israel to the church. Then Thomas Ice concludes the New Testament, especially the epistles, clearly teach that the whole of the church age is a time of increasing apostasy within Christendom. In fact, so much space is spent in the New Testament dealing with this issue of apostasy that it has to be considered one of the most major themes in the Bible.

Apostasy constitutes the main theme of entire books and chapters as well. He concludes, they realize that one cannot be looking both for a great latter rain revival and an any moment return of Christ at the rapture. If a revival is necessary, then there is something that has to happen before Christ could return. And the rapture would have to wait until after this has convened. And then if I could add my own comment, I look at the verse in Luke 18, 8 that says, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth? Doesn't sound to me like there's going to be a revival before the tribulation, at least not of billions of people, as we heard Mr.

Sheets predicting and hoping for. Pastor Mark Henry is in studio with me. He is from Revive Church in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota, on the line from Southern California.

Pastor Tom Hughes, 412 Church, San Jacinto. Gentlemen, welcome back to the studio. Good to see you, Jan. Thank you, Tom. Welcome to you. Great to be here, Jan. Thank you for having me.

I tried to set the stage there and I apologize. It took some time, but I wanted to let folks know that I've tried to dig into this and I have, and I just shared less than 10 minutes and I could have done an intro of 50 minutes, but I want to save time for you, gentlemen. Mark Henry, do you expect a revival here in the coming days before the rapture of the church? And I mean a significant mind-numbing revival. I'd love it if that happened, Jan. Obviously, we want to get the gospel to every single person. We're seeing people get saved, but it's not something that God predicts in the Bible. And so when someone makes some sort of prediction like that, if the eminent return of Jesus Christ, the rapture can come at any time, any moment for the glory of God, then nothing has to happen. There's no sign.

There's nothing we're waiting for. I would suggest to you, those sort of statements contradict that. Tom Hughes, your input on this? I have a lot to say on this. I hear this all the time. I hear it by other pastors in a revival. And I'm like, well, what do you base it on? Because you can't base it on the Bible.

And I want to say this. I'm not saying there will not be a revival or an awakening that happens because we don't know when we're going to get called home. But the problem is the Bible paints an entirely different picture as the world gets ready to enter into the tribulation period.

And it paints an entirely different picture of what the church looks like. 2 Timothy chapter 3, Paul writes, he says, For in the last days perilous times will come. And then he begins to explain, and men will be lovers of themselves rather than lovers of God, traders, boasters, proud lovers of money, and so forth. And then he says, And they will have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

Stay away from such people. And that describes the church having a form of godliness where we're spiritual. Listen, I think of the Sermon on the Mount. When Jesus says, In that day, they will say, Lord, Lord, we did this in your name, and we did that in your name. I'm afraid that is what we are witnessing in a profound way right now. And it is people thinking they are doing the Lord's work. They're getting into these crazy ideas.

But the Bible paints a completely different picture for the last days. Let me read an email. It's a very revealing email.

I'm not citing the name of the person who sent it. But the emailer writes this, I just want to encourage you, mentioning I've been following several prophets that are hearing from God and see these times differently than you do, Jan. I listened to Hank Kunneman, Kat Kerr, Robin Bullock, Johnny Enloe, and others.

I listened to Elijah Streams and Steve Schultz, also Grace and Glory and Dave Scarlett and Amanda Grace. I listened to Kenneth Copeland's Victory News Channel, Kim Clement, who passed on but who also prophesied about President Trump having two consecutive terms. And then several other prophets have seen this as well. And then she says one thing Johnny Enloe said makes a lot of sense. He said, Ever since Jesus returned to heaven, Christians have lived like they would be raptured soon and therefore didn't make a whole lot of difference in the culture.

Well, I would disagree with that, but that's not the point here. Let me continue with her comments. She goes on, They let the culture rot. This is her words, not being salt and it became a snare for them. Then she goes on talking about the seven mountain mandate.

We'll get into that now. And then she concludes, Jesus wants to return for a beautiful and righteous bride. He doesn't want us to wait around to escape. Kat Kerr says she's seen into the future and there are several decades left where God wants to bring us to His kingdom, into our culture, and to expect a huge harvest of souls for the kingdom. There are several prophecies still waiting to be fulfilled like the wealth of the wicked going to the righteous and the world, knowing we are Christians by our love. What stood out to me, a couple of things, because we're just waiting around for the rapture, we're doing no good in the world. Mark, I know you disagree with that as I do.

Absolutely Jan, absolutely. You're the one who's over in the heart of Africa doing a whole lot of kingdom work, so you're not wasting time. I spent 33 years, as soon as I trusted Christ, I started preaching Christ. And my first sermon was 16 years old.

I left a family business, all sorts of things, to advance the gospel. And I would just say, the last days, as I read through the New Testament, 1 Timothy chapter 4 says, but the Spirit explicitly says in latter times, some will fall away from the faith, teaching doctrines of demons. You got the passage that Tom just quoted, that the last days are filled with difficulty. You find in 2 Peter chapter 3, that the last days there's going to be mockers. That's what I'm seeing in Scripture about the last days.

I want to play quickly a clip, it happens to be Pastor JD Farag, talking about the very thing we're talking about. Look, do we have a great revival coming or is the rapture imminent? I truly believe with all my heart that God is even now judging this dark world. And He's doing so, so people will let go of the world, especially His people, and follow Jesus as the light of the world.

Now stay with me because we have a problem. The problem is, there are those who are saying that there's going to be this great revival, this great awakening. And the result is that many, and we're talking about Christians, are still holding out hope in this world, which has the effect of delaying, even dismantling any urgency concerning the Lord's soon return. Because if that's true, and it's not, that there's coming this great revival before Jesus can come back, then that means that Jesus cannot come back until there's a great revival. Until there's a great revival. So now, all of a sudden, as we just beautiful, by the way, you guys today was magnificent as you were worshiping. Turn your eyes upon Jesus. And when you do, the things of earth grow strangely dim. But wait a minute, if there's going to be a revival, then that means that Jesus isn't coming because there has to be this first.

You fill in the blank. And so now, all of a sudden, I'm not turning my eyes upon Jesus. I'm not looking up and lifting up my head, knowing that my redemption draws nigh, seeing all of these things begin to come to pass. Because this has to happen first. You have just delayed my Master's coming.

Don't be doing that. You're listening to Understanding the Times radio on Jan Markell. I have two guests with me for the hour. One is in studio, Pastor Mark Henry, Pastor's revived church in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota. That is formerly, those of you who've been around here a long time, Brooklyn Park Evangelical Free Church, and on the line from Southern California, 412 Church, Pastor Tom Hughes. Pastor Tom Hughes, best way of finding you would be hopeforourtimes.com. That is it. Pastor Mark revived brooklynpark.org.

Yes, ma'am. Tom, you heard that little clip there of Pastor JD Froggatt. He's reinforcing what we've already said here in the first 20 minutes of the program. Tom, here's the thing that I'm picking up on, is that I sense these who are anticipating this revival do not hold to dispensational theology. My hunch is that they're holding to Kingdom Now or Dominionism.

All focus is on the church. What the church is going to do, what the church can do, the church's assignment here in the last days, and very little, if any, focus, again, on the nation of Israel. Would you agree with that?

I'd say that's spot on. Can I comment on something that was said with the people that are thinking about the rapture or no good for this earth? This is how Peter said it. He said, the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens will pass away with the great noise and the elements melt with fervent heat and so forth. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness looking for and hastening the day of God? So I look at this and go, wait a minute, if you have this correct perspective on eschatology of us going home, it's going to do exactly the opposite of what they claim. Everybody I know that thinks about the rapture and has their mind fixed on Christ is out there doing everything they can to do great things for the name of Christ because they want to see souls get saved. But I think what I'm hearing, people, they claim to be Christian, but they're loving the world more than the thought of being with God. And they want to build this perfect world. And as far as dominion now theology, that was also what came across in my mind. That must be what they believe. That they're going to create this place, and then Jesus will return, and then we'll say, look at the great thing that we have done. That is so not what the Bible teaches, how things are going to be winding up here. It teaches exactly the opposite.

What Thomas I said earlier, and I'd say JED is like my hero, and so true. JAN MARKE Mark Henry, I think for the church to do what some are hoping it will do, and a billion souls here in the coming short time, the church would have to be in really, really good shape. I don't see it in good shape. Now, obviously, there are good churches today. I'm not suggesting there aren't.

But first of all, many shut down, some never even opened after the pandemic crisis. But I see them focusing on feel good, on your best life now, that's sort of what Tom was saying, self-esteem. God wants to bless me and make me happy. And then I go back to this verse, I opened with Luke 18, eight, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

I'm having a hard time seeing a church today that's somewhat broken, bringing in a billion souls here. JESSE The Bible says the exact opposite. It says, know this first of all. This is a prophetic statement in the Bible. Instead of telling you about a vision I had, I'm going to tell you what the Bible says. Know this first of all, I'm reading the verse, that in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts. And I would suggest to you, as I look around, there's lots of people who are attacking the coming of the Lord Jesus and following after their lusts, turning away from the Bible.

Absolutely, Jan. I saw a statistic the other day, and if I recall correctly, it said 56% of people who claim to be Christians believe that casual sex is acceptable lifestyles. I just read an article today, 6% of Christians have a biblical worldview. I would suggest to you this passage is what we need to be studying and realizing in the last days. Also, if anybody reflects on the subject of dispensations at all, we know that at the end of every dispensation, man always fails and God is gracious. Think back to the Garden of Eden and the dispensation of innocence. How did that end with man falling and rebelling towards God? Dispensation of conscience, how did that end?

Brother being killed. And I would suggest to you, and I've been saying this throughout my ministry, the dispensation of the church, the blessing is that we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, we have the book of truth, we have one another, we've got this global commission to go and preach the gospel to the ends of the earth, but the average church, only 10% of the people are sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ. It seems like we're failing and not following through. So I tell people all the time, preach Christ.

Here's another email, Jan. I keep hearing prophets like Hank Kunneman and Dutch Sheets and many other precious people who I know love God. And by the way, I'm not suggesting that these folks don't love God. Prophesy that there is a coming great revival and America is going to turn around. I don't see that in scripture and I feel like something's amiss every time I hear them say it. I want it to be true, but don't you believe that we're headed more for the great apostasy than revival in this current end times?

Again, that's exactly what we've been addressing here for the first 20 some minutes of the program. Tom Hughes, I think we've given some biblical illustrations here and I've tried to give some quotes that I think are significant. But what would you say to this gal who wrote in to me the first email that I read?

I'll read again. She says, Jesus wants to return for a beautiful and righteous bride. He doesn't want us to wait around to escape. Then she says, Kat Kerr says she's seen into the future and there are several decades left where God wants us to bring about his kingdom into our culture and to expect a huge harvest of souls.

Tom, here's the thing. There's a chorus of self-proclaimed prophets out there that are doing this and I'm not sure how to give folks eyes perhaps a little bit turned off of these people and turned onto the truth. I feel like I'm fighting the gifted almost every day. I don't know anybody that's waiting around to escape. I just see it happening that way at all. So these are bad accusations. There's so much deception that's happening to people that call themselves believers, followers of Christ. They're totally deceived. I'll tell you what this perfect world that man is going to attempt to build is this utopian kingdom with the Antichrist that's going to be at the top. And these people who are following these visions that somebody else sees and we're going to build this perfect utopian world, these people are set up within the church to follow Antichrist. And the problem is they're not trusting what the Bible says and they're not looking to Jesus Christ. They are looking to the pleasures of this world. I love what you said, Mark, how you look at every dispensation as it's ended.

Man messed up. It's going to happen again. And I believe we are watching a separation of the wheat from the tares that is taking place within the church. I do believe that God is preparing his bride, but I don't think the bride is going to be this massive billion revival that's going to happen. If you look throughout the Bible and throughout world history, God prepares his people to bring them home through persecution and even says, blessed in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. And you look, you go, I don't like that verse, but God knows that persecution purifies. I'm looking at it from a biblical perspective and thinking people are being deceived.

I really think they are. Again, Revelation 7 records that a great multitude so large no one can count it. Multitudes from every nation, all tribes and peoples and languages will come to a saving faith in the Messiah during the great tribulation. Is this perhaps the future revival that's coming? And obviously there can be individual revival. A church can have revival meetings and get revived. We're talking here national or international revival, Mark.

Absolutely. We just baptized a thousand new converts in Africa. When COVID started, we had 14,600 believers in the churches that we started over there. We've just baptized a thousand. We've got a bunch more that have trusted Christ and ready to be baptized.

But at the level of revival that you're talking about and some of the other folks are talking about, it is in the future. Yes, the church age, we fail. The church is going to end up failing to fulfill its duties before God. But the good news is, is that Jesus is mighty to save and God has a plan for that. With 144,000, the two prophets, no one in the world is not going to hear the gospel at that time. In fact, in Revelation 14, verse six, it says there, I saw an angel flying in the mid-heaven with the eternal gospel to preach to nations, tribes, tongues, and people. And it says, fear God and give him glory. So there's going to be preaching at a whole different global element during that time. And there's going to be this massive turning to Christ. Mark, Olive Tree and Revived Church, again, Mark is in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.

That is a northwest suburb of Minneapolis, 7849 West Broadway, Brooklyn Park. You and I are teaming up to do some events here this summer and going into fall and even winter. And I'm just going to give some details here. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you're having our rep, Ken Michael at your church. And that's going to be Sunday afternoon, July 11th, 18th, and 25th at 4 p.m. Correct. And we're looking forward to having Ken. He's a great communicator, spent 30 years in investigation, and he uses that mind and that method to look at these days, look in the Bible, and he's going to be a great encouragement to everybody.

Yes. I've been at his presentations and they're excellent. Folks, if you want to understand the times, particularly from a prophetic perspective, it will not be live streamed.

The next item we talk about will be. So this is mainly for my Twin Cities surrounding area audience, July 11th, 18th, 25th at 4 p.m. at Revived Church. Again, formerly Brooklyn Park Eve Free. Many of you went to activities at Brooklyn Park Eve Free.

I went and heard Hal Lindsey there about 2005. Come on out and meet the whole gang here. And then on Thursday, August the 12th, we're going into a cooperative effort, Understanding Our Times. We're going to do this every other month. Second Thursday. This will be live streamed, my understanding is. Second Thursday of every month at Revived Church, Brooklyn Park. And our first guest is Michelle Bachman.

Talk to me about what's happening. So August 12th at 7 p.m. our time, we'll be streaming that service live. We're going to have Michelle. She's going to be sharing with us. And then you and I are going to do a Q&A with her. We are going to have a great time. There will be links on your webpage, Jan, and on our webpage at the church where people will be able to just click right on and it'll hook right up to their computer or device. No registration needed, folks.

No charge for this event on Thursday, August 12th. Two months later, Thursday, October 14th, we'll do the same thing with Pastor Billy Crone. And then we'll go into December and into the new year, hopefully, and maybe the church is gone by then. But if not, the remnant will gather and encourage one another because that is exactly what it's all about. Now, folks, when I come back, here's what I want to do.

Changing topics a little bit here. Why were most of the prophets wrong when it came to predicting the outcome of the 2020 election? I'm going to play some clips of some of the prophets and they were convinced they were right and we should listen to them. They were all wrong. I want to discuss that when we come back. We'll spend most of the balance of the program discussing that. Don't go away.

I'm coming back in just a minute or two. We hope you'll stay in touch with us online through OliveTreeViews.org. That's OliveTreeViews.org. You can call us central time at 763-559-4444. That's 763-559-4444. Write us through the mail at Olive Tree Ministries and Jan Markell, Post Office Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota 55311. That's Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota 55311.

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Sign up online or call our office central time. We will be joining Pastor Jack Hibbs at his fall prophecy conference on September 11. Find that information on our conference page at OliveTreeViews.org. That's OliveTreeViews.org. This event will be live streamed on September 11. Speakers include Pastor Jack Hibbs, Amir Sarfati, Jan Markell, and Pastor Barry Stagner. Consult with Calvary Chapel, Chino Hills, California for all details.

Don't unplug. Stay up to date with news and information that will make you a part of today's Watchmen on the Wall. That time is going to come when people are going to raise up for themselves teachers to itch their ears and they will be led away from the truth to fables. This is happening within the churches in America.

Jan and Pastors Tom Hughes and Mark Henry changed topics in this segment. Any so-called prophet stated with certainty that President Donald Trump would win a second term and serve out that full term in office starting last January. Have the standards for the office of prophet changed from biblical times? Should they step down from their role as foretellers? We'll talk about that in this closing segment. Trump will be president no matter what you hear.

Author and prophet Kat Kerr told the Elijah List, Steve Schultz, that the prophets did not get it wrong. She says God is getting ready to uncover corruption and evil. She says it will be a landslide of exposure.

It'll start with a phone call and I can tell you, you will be shocked to see how much exposure comes from that. But Trump will win. He will be president of the United States. He will sit in that office for four more years and God will have his way in this country.

Kerr is not alone. Prophet Jeremiah Johnson believes before Trump is declared the winner, Joe Biden may prematurely announce that he is the next president of the United States. He wrote to his followers, quote, either a lying spirit has filled the mouths of numerous trusted prophetic voices in America or Donald J. Trump really has won the presidency and we are witnessing a diabolical and evil plan unfold to steal the election. At 4.30, the Lord said to me, I am going to give your president a second win. Just a few weeks ago, Pastor Denise Goulet spoke those words over President Trump while he attended the International Church of Las Vegas. She joined a chorus of other prophetic voices that believe God told them Trump will win, including CBN's Pat Robertson. I want to say without question, Trump is going to win the election. In the book of Amos chapter three verse seven, it says God does nothing without revealing his plans to his servants, the prophets. And these prophetic voices say it ain't over. Well, I'm not sure the prophets heard the right voice because today's prophets got it very, very wrong as it concerns the 2020 election.

And I know some of you are saying, well, President Trump really did win. That is not the purpose of this segment. Honestly, it's not.

Really don't want to take time to go down that pathway. But I'm going to play a clip here. Let me just introduce it. Many of these so-called modern day prophets prophesied that Donald Trump would win in November, that he would serve two full terms in office. And they were very, very wrong. A few apologized. I appreciated that some came forth. Chris Vellatin and others apologized, said we missed it.

Others just moved on and didn't think much about it. And I'm not so sure, based on the standards in Deuteronomy 18, that you can be wrong and still be considered a prophet because there they had to be 100 percent right. We'll talk more about that in just a minute. Before I get into the discussion with my two guests, I want to play one more very short clip.

Now, let me just do a little disclaimer here. OK, the clip is of Michael Brown. Michael Brown is an online and on air fellow. I know him fairly well. He's a messianic Jew and I have huge disagreements with Michael. He was a part of the so-called Brownsville revival of the 1990s.

I call it the Brownsville debacle. He has a book out that he's planning on meeting the Antichrist. And he's not afraid of him. I think that's reckless writing. I really do because he believes we're going through the tribulation.

So he's not afraid of the Antichrist. That's what Michael Brown's book is all about. I just have some issues with Michael, but I am proud of him in the statement that he released here about a month ago. And let's play that little statement and then come back. And gentlemen, I want to talk about it.

Recently, there's come to light some issues about profits and prophecy related to the election. And we have Dr. Michael Brown with us to unpack that and to help us understand what's going on. Dr. Brown, welcome to the program. Glad to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Well, let me just dive right in here. Forty prophets or so predicted that Donald Trump would win the election, win a second term. That obviously didn't come to pass. And it is troubling for those of us who believe in this gift and believe in the office of a prophet and all those things.

What in the world is going on here? It's a big moment in the charismatic movement to really take stock and ask some serious questions, because some of these same prophetic leaders also missed it with COVID. Let's step back and realize that not a single major national or international prophetic voice clearly warned us that COVID was coming. And now here we are a full year into it, and hundreds of thousands of deaths in our lives turned upside down. And then many of them said it was going to end by Passover of last year. And I began writing, hey, look, we've all experienced prophecy. We've experienced the power of personal prophecy and seeing prophetic ministry used. How can it be so wrong here? And I said, well, maybe we're looking to it the wrong way. Maybe we're looking to New Testament prophets as some type of spiritual fortune tellers, and that's not the purpose of it.

So when they're out of their lane, they're going to make mistakes. So sure enough, we now have this consensus. No, no, no, you watch what's going to happen in November.

We should have been a little skeptical because the whole COVID thing was missed already. And then what happens is not just them, but many others around the world, they all have the same thing. Trump is going to be reelected, and then he's not. Some, sadly, tragically, are still saying, no, you watch. No, no, he's spiritually elected.

No, there are two presidents now, God's president and man's president. And no, you watch what's going to happen in March or April or all this type of stuff that brings further approach. And major media has picked up on this. Major secular reporters have picked up. New York Times is about to release a story on this. It's big news. It's brought terrible reproach. And only a handful have publicly said, we blew it, we were wrong, we apologize.

And others are in some type of spiritual denial or even in delusion. You get someone on national radio or TV and speaking to millions on YouTube, and they give all these words, and I guarantee it, and Joe Biden will not serve a single day in office. I guarantee you, Donald Trump will be in office. You watch what happens this date, this date, this date. None of it happens. And they just skip on their merry way. And you've got believers hurting all around the country.

That's irresponsible. We need to bring accountability into the charismatic movement. Michael Brown himself, very strong, opinionated, charismatic. Again, I applaud him for being so blunt. Mark Henry, your thoughts on this?

As I was listening to that clip, I so appreciated the fact that he was taking a task. And the reason is, is when we step outside the lane of the Bible, remember, pastors, leaders are told in Second Timothy chapter four to preach the word in season out of season. And in the last days, people aren't going to accept that and they're going to turn to myths. This gives Jesus a black eye.

It hurts the cause of Christ. Pastors are being attacked and saying, see, the Bible's wrong. The Bible isn't wrong. This wasn't found in the Bible.

Tom Hughes, your thoughts? I agree with Mark wholeheartedly. And I think of the quote you had from Amos chapter three, when you first opened Jan, God does nothing unless he tells us through the prophets first. Listen, we have the prophetic word.

So when I'm teaching Bible prophecy, I'm not going with visions. I'm looking at this and go, the whole direction of this is just absurd. But the most unbelievable thing to me is that these so-called prophets are out there. Obviously, they've been wrong.

It's amazing how many people still follow them. True. Good point. Here's what the problem is. People are looking, both church people and unchurched people, they're looking not for Jesus Christ. They're looking for a political leader.

And that is what the problem is. It happened when Jesus came the first time. It's happening again, as I believe he's going to be coming soon. People are looking for a political leader. Somebody will lead them in this world. But we need to be looking to Jesus Christ.

So what happens? Well, Mark just quoted 2 Timothy chapter four, in that the time is going to come when people are going to raise up for themselves, teachers to itch their ears, and they will be led away from the truth to fables. This is happening within the churches in America. Mark Henry, how do we apply Deuteronomy 18 here? Those prophets had to be right every single time. They couldn't make a mistake. Why would today's prophets be given a pass all the time?

Well, they shouldn't be given a pass. And here's why, Jan. In Deuteronomy 18 21, now you got to be mindful, Moses is about to die. He gives the 10 sermons to the children of Israel as they're about ready to enter into the promised land.

So these 10 sermons are key for how they conduct themselves. And actually in verse 21, there's a question posed, how do we know the word which the Lord has spoken? Because he's just talking about the prophets and he's made a promise that Jesus is going to be the great prophet and so forth. It goes on in verse 22 and says, when the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about and it's not true, then you know it's not from the Lord.

And so it was an acid test. Now that's in the Old Testament, but you got to remember, now we're in the New Testament. We've got the full canon of scripture. That's the reason we're told to study the scriptures, to know the scriptures, to teach the scriptures and not turn away from myths. In fact, Jan, there are seven tests specifically in the New Testament about testing prophets. Do you want to list them?

Sure. Test number one, there's a theological test. First John chapter four says, beloved, do not believe every spirit. That's talking about the spirit of man.

People come and make testimonies about different things. Test the spirits to see if they're from God because false prophets have gone out into the world. By this, you will know the spirit of God.

How? They will profess that Jesus is the Christ and he's come in the flesh. So there's a theological test. In Galatians chapter one, verse six, there's a gospel test.

Does this person preach Jesus crucified, risen and coming again on salvation by grace through faith alone? And it says, if anyone doesn't teach that, let them be accursed. In Matthew chapter seven, there's the test of fruit. Jesus says, beware of false prophets and how they're going to come in and sheath clothes. And he goes on very specifically in verse 17 and says, every good tree bears good fruit, but bad trees bear bad fruit. You're going to know the false prophets that way. James talks about the test of wisdom, that there's only two places of wisdom and you're going to know them. There's going to be bitter jealousy and selfish ambition and there's going to be arrogance and there's going to be those who lie against the truth. And in contrast to that, wisdom that is earthly, natural and demonic, in contrast to that, there's God's wisdom. And God's wisdom doesn't bring disorder and evil things, but it brings that which is pure, peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy, good fruits, unwavering without hypocrisy.

And then there's one more, Jan, and that's in Ephesians chapter four and verse 11, where it talks about how the church leaders are given to teach the people to be united in Christ, to build them up in Christ so they're not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. And then there's a warning after those six tests. Then there's a warning. And the warning is about visions. It's found in Colossians chapter two, and it talks about how they came into the churches in the Lycus Valley and they had this gnostic ideology that we've got this mystery and you can't know God and you've got to come to us. And there's this new neo-gnosticism in the days in which we're living. But listen to verse 18. It talks about them taking their stand on visions he has seen inflated without cause by fleshly minds.

And so I would suggest when you look at that whole package, people have to be very, very careful. Come back to the Bible. That's where the word of truth is. Are we hearing fleshly minds here? Every single prophet has said that Donald Trump is going to win.

God spoke to me. All right, what's going to happen in 2020? I think President Trump is going to be reelected handily. I think he will win the election without any question. Donald Trump is going to win this election and it's going to be a red tsunami. And yeah, we're going to take the House and I know it's topsy-turvy in the Senate, but I'm telling you, we're going to take the Senate as well.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that President Trump will have a second term. I am speaking from the future. Yes, you are. At this moment. Right this moment. And I am going to proclaim that President Trump will be President of the United States. Hallelujah. In Jesus' name, I am going to proclaim that the Republicans will take the Senate and the House. I'm telling you that President Trump is going to triumph in 2020. God is going to shake this nation. The Lord brought that man to office for a purpose and a plan.

He was set there by God's divine hand. He will not be removed. And I believe, as those prophets have said and the Holy Spirit's revealed to me too, I believe that Donald Trump is going to be re-elected President in the United States and he'll be re-elected, I believe, in a landslide. No matter what the politics say, no matter what's going on, we believe that this President shall be re-elected.

I prophesied that to you some years back in 2020. Did God show you who's going to win the election? Yes, he is.

If believers, and I know it's always if believers pray. Right. But he showed me three times in a dream, and I showed this first time.

There's a clip that was made here. I dreamed that Donald Trump got re-elected. There's no guessing games. He is the one that God's going to put his hands on. I think he's going to win again by landslide, some kind of landslide.

It could be an electoral landslide, but it's going to be a landslide. Okay, we have a problem with what we've just heard. Quite frankly, for the whole hour, we've been talking about some things we have some problems with. Thankfully, this whole stream of leaders has come out with at least a segment of them, a statement on prophetic standards. It's a group of Christian leaders released a four-page statement of prophetic standards to help correct the abuses that we've been talking about this hour.

I'm very pleased to announce this came out this past spring here of 2021 and a newly created propheticstandards.com. You can look it up online propheticstandards.com is the work of 85 Christian ministry heads, preachers, academics, denominational officials, authors, evangelists, and other participants in what's been called the prophetic movement. It goes on to say at the heart of the statement is a call for all who've made false prophecies to publicly apologize. And then it concludes here, if someone issues a public prophecy with specific details and dates that can be easily proved or disproved, and that word does not come to pass as prophesied, the one who delivered the word must be willing to take full responsibility, demonstrating genuine contrition before God in people, the statement says. Again, this is a statement on prophetic standards put out by 85 Christian ministry heads, many of them in the prophetic stream.

These people themselves are saying enough is enough. And then it concludes, this is not meant to be a punishment, but rather a mature act of love to protect the honor of the Lord, the integrity of prophetic ministry, and the faith of those to whom the word was given. The statement also calls for prophets to have their prophecies evaluated by peers in the movement, adding those refusing such accountability should not be welcomed for ministry.

Again, it was 85 Christian leaders. There are many in the stream who would not sign this, including Chuck Pierce, Cindy Jacobs, Kenneth Copeland, Lance Wallnau, and Dutch Sheets. None of those would sign this outstanding statement on prophetic standards. Tom Hughes, your thoughts? It's disturbing that certain individuals wouldn't sign it.

I don't follow any of them myself. I have a couple things I want to say, and this is to people who have preached those videos, and people who have believed them and still believe that somehow Trump's the president. And they'll say, well, the whole election, there was a cheat. Listen, God is not so small that he couldn't overcome that if that was the problem. Regardless of how you feel about whether or not an election was stolen, God is much bigger than that, and God is sovereign, and God is in charge. Again, I think if people have gotten their eyes on political leaders, they've gotten their eyes on these preachers that make them feel good, these things are not Bible prophecy. And I praise God that this statement is out.

I had an individual that I was in a meeting with right after the election, and he was a huge Trump supporter, real well known in California. I'm in a meeting with him. There's about five of us in the room, and he looks at me, and he knows I teach Bible prophecy. He says to me, how could you be so wrong, all you Bible prophecy people? And I said, what?

And he told me about these videos. And I said, that's not Bible prophecy. I said, these people have visions. I said, if you ever watch any of my videos or videos of my colleagues, you won't hear that kind of stuff. We stick to what the Bible actually says.

You're listening to visions and dreams that people supposedly had, but that is not Bible. You've got to stick to the word, which goes back to what Mark said. And Mark, those seven tests are great. Praise God, I wrote down every one of them, because I'm going to tell people, these are seven tests. You want to follow somebody?

Test them. Mary Lee Sargent Mark, what's with the spiritually elected? Because you equated that to... Mark Miller This is so important when you start to think about people responding and saying, well, he was spiritually elected and that's how these prophecies are being fulfilled. Well, just remember what Tom just mentioned in Daniel chapter two, it is God who establishes Kings and removes Kings. So Tom is absolutely right.

God doesn't have a problem doing that. Number two is when you look in history, when people have gone outside the Bible, history is filled with illustrations of people when those things don't come about, just spiritualizing them. So I was influenced in my earlier days by the Jehovah's Witness movement. And one of the things I noticed about them was that they said Jesus was coming back in 1917. They sold all of their stuff.

I believe it was 1917, it might have been 1916. They sold all of their stuff, got everything ready because the kingdom was coming at that point. Well, it didn't happen. And so they said, well, it was spiritual.

It's going to happen in 1974, I think it was, or 1976. And then that didn't happen. And then they said, well, again, it's just spiritual. They did the same thing with 144,000. They said there's going to be 144,000 faithful Jehovah's Witnesses. And then once they realized they had too many Jehovah's Witnesses, they spiritualized that number. When people distort the Bible, when they step outside the Bible, when they become the authority, historically people just spiritualize it.

Thank you for that clarification. Folks, you're listening to Understanding the Times Radio. If you join me late, I have in studio with me from local church in the Twin Cities area, where I headquarter, Pastor Mark Henry. He pastors Revived Church in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.

That's formerly Brooklyn Park Eve Free. Those of you who've been around a long time. And Mark, you've been at Revived five years now? Yeah, five years, the Lord's blessing, opening many doors for the gospel. So we're excited about that. And you're currently on a series on the churches of Revelation. I've been hearing it.

Yeah, it's been a fantastic study and we're looking forward to this week. Thank you. Your services are 9, 10 and 11?

9, 10 and 11. And we're at 7849 West Broadway in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota. Okay. Tom Hughes is with me from 412 Church in San Jacinto, California, where I had the privilege of ministering in January of 2020. And Tom Hughes, when I ministered at your church year and a half ago, roughly, the world, it wasn't sane, but it was a whole lot more sane than it is now. COVID was out there, but it hadn't changed the world yet. Did you ever think you'd see the day?

Not like it is. In fact, I remember you came out about that same time I had Don Stewart out, I believe. And I remember talking with Don for about 20 minutes about coronavirus. Neither one of us projected what we've actually entered into. However, I can tell you this, we do know when you look at the Bible, what the world has to look like during this global government that's going to come. You can totally see everything being shaped.

We have the great reset that keeps being talked about. We have the talk about digital currency now that all money's going to go away as we know it, cash. Everything is being shaped this way.

People have identifications to travel. We know that's going to develop into buying or selling. It is amazing. But in order for the biblical prophecies to be fulfilled, the world has to be prepared. And Jan, I've said it a hundred times since the lockdown started.

This is not about social distancing, but social conditioning. And if you don't have the Bible to help you through this time in the context of the Bible, you could be a mess, distraught, discouraged, beat down, depressed, all of those things. But the Bible helps us to navigate this because we know that when we see these things begin to take place, we can look up and lift up our heads because our redemption draws near. JAN MARKELL You need to be catching Tom's online prophecy updates and you can get them on YouTube when he's not being censored. Same with Understanding the Times Radio.

We're on some 900 radio stations that don't censor us, thank you, my radio stations, but YouTube often does. So you can find us on our website, both audio and video, OliveTreeViews.org, and on Rumble, on Light Source, on his channel. And you can find Tom at HopeForOurTimes.com, HopeForOurTimes.com, and Mark Henry at ReviveBrooklynPark.org, ReviveBrooklynPark.org. Mark, I just so resonated with what Tom just said, how things have changed in one and a half years. Now it says in Revelation when things begin to happen, they happen suddenly, but did you expect them to happen this fast? Society has changed in one and a half years, global society has changed in one and a half years. TOM You know, you just think about it from my limited experience.

When I trusted Christ, you know, in the early 80s, and then I was reading the Bible and all these things are supposed to happen. It's like, how in the world could America be weakened? How in the world could we have this global talk? Because we're Americans and America is great.

We're not a perfect country, but we're the best country. All that discussion. This has all got to change. And we have seen it happen right before our eyes. I'm telling you, Jesus is coming soon. We know that's repeated over and over in the Bible.

That's not some lame prediction. And we're anticipating it's coming. And I think what's happening, at least in my heart, Jan, is it's just purging my affection for this world. Mentally, emotionally, spiritually, every day, it's like, come Lord Jesus, come Lord Jesus. And I think God's doing that across the board with many of us.

Yes. And I think that there is still a subset of people, I don't know what the percentage would be, who do want to cling to this world. They do. They want this world to get better. And they are anticipating that it will get better. And then we get into the various theologies.

We already talked about some of that. I think it's a fair number of people who are clinging to this world. And of course, some of that theology says the church is going to make it better. We know differently. Yeah.

The post-millennial view is historically, right? We're going to preach the gospel. Things are going to get better. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be this great revival. And Jesus is going to come back and pick everything up because we did such a great job.

Not the case. It's going to be a mess. The tribulation is going to start after the rapture. And we're going to see Jesus do something great.

The millennial kingdom, thousand years after that, and then the eternal state. Tom, do you want to wrap it up? I'm giving you two minutes if you'd like to do that. Am I allowed to promote something? Oh, yeah.

Go ahead. Promote your conference. In June, June 25 and 26, that's this weekend. Yes. We have a Hope for Our Times Prophecy Conference.

It's in Huntington Beach. It's sold out, but you can still go online. You can do pay-per-view. You can watch the entire conference both days.

All of the speakers, it's going to be absolutely fantastic. In September, I have two of your regulars, Brandon Holdhouse and Billy Crone are joining me. Yes, good.

I haven't had them with me yet at the same time. September 26. Where do they find all the info? Hopeforourtimes.com.

Okay. But I do want to say this, and this is for all of the listeners out there, the reason why we do these things is to give hope. We look at all of the various signs that are in the Bible. Jesus tells us to watch and be ready. Ezekiel talks about the watchman on the wall, and this is what we do to tell people, look, Jesus is coming. We see everything happening. Anti-Semitism, it is global now.

It has grown exponentially just over the last month alone. If you look what's happening in Israel, you look at the threats of Russia and Iran, you look at all the different aspects that are coming. These are all signs or events that tell us that we need to be ready, that Jesus is going to call us home. We have the opportunity to be able to still tell other people about the Lord Jesus Christ, and this is what we need to be doing.

There are people out there that have never been to church before that want to know what in the world is going on, and we have an opportunity to reach them. Jan, I want to thank you for the work that you do and you have been doing for decades. It is marvelous. And by the way, just last week I was at a conference, if somebody came up to me, they told me they had a book that was autographed by you that you wrote several years ago.

I think they said they got the book like 30 years ago. That is so cool. I thank you just for giving me the opportunity to be on this program. And also, Mark, you and I talk frequently. Praise God, Jesus is coming and we need to get this message out. Thank you, gentlemen, both, for today, for the hour.

I appreciate it so much. And it's true, until He comes, we must continue to do all we can to fulfill the Great Commission, regardless of the apostasy and adverse circumstances in which we may find ourselves. Let's occupy until He comes.

Let's be salt and light and delay the decay. And I know these are all big assignments in a deteriorating world. And I want to thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next week. We know you can't always be by a radio. So just remember that our programming is posted to our website in both its audio and video format. Just go to OliveTreeViews.org. That's OliveTreeViews.org and then to radio.

You can also find us on YouTube, Rumble, Light Source, and His Channel. Contact us through our website, OliveTreeViews.org. That's OliveTreeViews.org. Call us central time at 763-559-4444. That's 763-559-4444. We get our mail when you write to Olive Tree Ministries in Jan Markell, Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311. That's Box 1452, Maple Grove, Minnesota, 55311.

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