Could the covenant with the Antichrist be being formed today? We'll talk about it. Chris, it seems to be accelerating. Jerusalem is God's time clock. We're watching Jeremiah 49:35 through 39.
That's Elam, that's modern-day Iran. Obviously, Isaiah 17:1 talks about the future of Damascus. Also, Ezekiel 38 and 39, the coalition that God brings against Israel, Russia, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya, former Soviet Union countries, and Caucasian mountains. Watching that very closely, watching the Russia-Iran relationship getting stronger and stronger, and you know, just a lot's happening. I'm thankful that Hamas has been dealt with.
Where they didn't have Israel didn't have to deal with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran at the same time.
So I think we're watching that very closely. Only God knows how this is going to play out. Welcome to Understanding the Times Radio with Jan Markell, Radio for the Remnant. Brought to you by Olive Tree Ministries. In part one of our program, Jen Markell talks to longtime friend and White House correspondent Bill Koenig.
they reveal an open letter to President Trump. In part two, Josh Schwartz and Ken Michael talk to apologist Frank Turek. Here is today's programming. At some point in time, this Antichrist figure is going to come on the scene and make a treaty, the Bible says, with Israel. And that's going to trigger this seven-year treaty.
Period of time, but it's divided in Daniel 9:27 into two halves. There's a first half and a second half to it. The first half of that period of time, Israel's going to enjoy peace. And I think at the beginning of the tribulation, there's going to be a time of worldwide peace. It says in Thessalonians: while men are saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction is going to come on them.
So the world is going to finally get its desire of having some peace and prosperity. But At the midpoint of that tribulation period, there's going to be some events that happen that trigger the Antichrist then is going to take the world over. And so that second half of the tribulation period, that last three and a half years, he's going to dominate the world and rule the world. And it's going to be a reign of terror that's going to come, really, when he's on the earth.
So the first half is going to be Antichrist forming the coalition. Or made the coalition with other nations around the world, and a peace treaty is signed with Israel, so there's peace, and we've got the global currency going on with the mark of the beast, and so there's prosperity. And then we'll move into the second half. Is there any tip point? Is it the signing of the peace treaty?
How far along is it? Is it maybe three and three and a half years after the signing of the peace treaty that that begins to take, you'll see the peace, and there's some kumbaya in the world. And then there's a tip point. And the last half is Antichrist basically breaking the deal? He does, yeah.
It says at the midpoint of that covenant, that seven-year period, he breaks the treaty with Israel.
So I call it one of the greatest double crosses of all time. And then what he's going to do, you know, the mask is going to come off at that point in time, and he's going to begin to persecute the Jewish people because obviously God has made promises to them. Satan wants to get rid of them and wipe them out. But he's going to dominate the world at that point in time.
So this world is going to end with this great apostasy, the Bible calls it, a great falling away when this one man is going to be working. Worshiped as God. And welcome to the program. Yes, peace, peace, peace and safety, peace and security. Thank you, Mark Hitchcock, for making those opening comments.
Comments about peace and safety. And one of my most frequent guests over the years here on Understanding the Times Radio and at my conference activity, who has served in numerous White House press corps, is Bill Koenig. He writes about many issues, but what he has become known for would be the consequences if you are going to divide the covenant land of Israel. He actually has a book by that title, I Do I, Facing the Consequences of Dividing Israel, where he documents the many times that division has happened and the consequences of such actions. This effort has happened under numerous presidents, including President Trump's first administration, and it is sort of in the process of happening again.
So many of us are asking if such an expansion of the Abraham Accords being discussed now, and we'll get into that a little bit more carefully here in the next few minutes, could be a part of the Daniel 927 covenant with the Antichrist.
So that was the little tease I opened here. Here with Dr. Mark Hitchcock. Quite frankly, Bill sent a very interesting open letter to President Trump very recently and co-authored by Michelle Bachman, signed by myself and several others, including Jack Hibbs. Let me just read a couple of paragraphs of that open letter to President Trump.
We write you with gratitude for your unwavering support of Israel during your first term. No American president has done more to recognize Jerusalem, affirm Israeli sovereignty, and stand up to Iran's aggression. For that reason, we respectfully appeal to you regarding the potential revival of the Peace to Prosperity Plan or any new proposal that includes Israel's land concessions or the outline of a future Palestinian state. Another paragraph or two here. When this vision was first introduced in January 2020, it was hailed by many as bold, but it included a significant shift, a detailed map of a future Palestinian state.
Was not symbolic. It formalized an expectation that the heartland of Judea and Samaria is to be divided and handed over under international oversight, even if the intent was to preserve Israel's security. The blueprint suggested that the path to peace runs through surrender of territory that has historical, legal, and biblical significance to the Jewish people. I'll read only one more paragraph. We are deeply concerned.
That such an approach may again be taking shape, a phased plan with the Arab state buy-in. Tied to Palestinian reforms still moves towards division. Israel's right to these territories was recognized in 1967 and remains uncontested under historical precedent. Peace cannot be secured by redrawing these lines. We have seen what followed the initial rollout.
While causality is complex, the sequence was undeniable. National disruption, economic upheaval, and political confusion surged in the months after the map was released. At minimum, it deserves caution, and at most, it demands a serious re-evaluation.
So, Bill Koenig is with me now at this moment. Bill, welcome back to the programming. Thank you, Jen. Always a pleasure.
So, you and I agree that President Trump is the most pro-Israel president, perhaps, in Israel's modern history, and he gets so much right. He may not have perfect 2020 vision, Bill, but he has been incredibly helpful to the Jewish state, and then, of course, came Abraham Accords in 2020.
So talk to me a little bit about this. My concern, Jen, in the summer of 2020 during the Abraham Accord negotiations was the fact that 132 Jewish communities where Benjamin Edanyahu and even Ambassador Friedman wanted to see the rightful extension of sovereignty to those communities. But the international community said, don't do it. If you do it, it'll be a big mistake. The UN, Russia, European leaders, and even some Christian leaders were very supportive of the Abraham Accords and calling for Israel not to annex this property.
My concern is, number one, and this is right after Secretary of State Pompeo. Had said after years worth of study that Israel had the legal rights. to be living in these Jewish communities, in these communities in Judea and Samaria.
So I really was concerned about the accords. And even the summer of negotiations, every time Jared Kushner was working on them, we would immediately have a hurricane begin and then travel for seven to 10 days and hit America right at the time he's working on the Abraham Accords. When he wasn't, everything was calm. And we had four record-setting hurricanes that summer. And the final one, Hurricane Sally, which is Sarah in Hebrew, Hurricane Sarah slammed into the southern Gulf Coast right after the Abraham Accords was signed at the White House in September 15.
2020. And I wrote, and I was challenging some of the Christians that were supportive of the Abraham Accords because they said this is going to be a great time of peace and an era of peace and had no concern about the fact that this continued the Palestinian two-state narrative or the fact that the UN resolutions 242 and 338 were being mentioned every time the Abraham Accords was brought up. It continued the dialogue. And then, two weeks after the signing at the White House, the Middle East leaders were at the UN and they all said that they would not have agreed to the deal or supported the deal. if there had been annexation of Jewish communities.
So here we are again. Abraham Accords is almost a daily, weekly comment. We're hearing it out of the White House. We're hearing it from President Trump and his Middle East envoy Steve Witkoff and others that this is a time to move into an expansion of the Abraham Accords. This would be David Friedman on the issue.
U.S. Ambassador to Israel, David Friedman. Ambassador, thank you for coming on. We'll play some sound. This is Steve Witkoff on Peace in the Middle East.
Watch. Today we are hopeful. We've the signs are there, and we're hopeful for a comprehensive peace agreement. We're having conversations with the Iranians. There are multiple interlocutors who are reaching out to us.
And I think that I think that's a good idea. They're ready. That's my strong sense. He's hopeful, Ambassador. Are you?
Do you think maybe the Abraham Accords will expand? What's your thought on this?
Well, it's a little early to bring the Mullahs into the Abraham Accords. I mean, they're highly untrustworthy. I think there may be a deal there where we can get a verifiable commitment not to expand nuclear ambitions. But the rest of the region, I think, is really ripe. The conditions that were there in 2020 when President Trump and Jaron Kushner and I and a few others negotiated the Abraham Accords, those conditions are there today.
Very strong America, very strong Israel, rock-solid connection, an alliance between Israel and America, and a weak Iran. That's where we were in 2020. We had Iran on their heels with back-breaking sanctions. Biden came in and he gave it away. I mean, he gave the Mullahs hundreds of millions of dollars.
He turned his back on Israel. He made America weak. And the Abraham Accords, not surprisingly, went nowhere. But now we're back to that same place. We have a very strong alliance, and Iran is weak.
And I would expect. Watch Steve Witcoff. He's very talented. I would watch the Abraham Accords closely. I think they will expand to a number of likely and less likely Muslim nations in the region.
So, Bill Koenig, they're going to expand. They may be finalized here in the coming weeks to a month or so. This is hugely concerning. It is. And Ambassador Freeman is one of my favorites.
We were so blessed to have him as the U.S. Ambassador to Israel. I've had some very interesting talks with him over the last couple of years. I know he and Secretary of State Pompeii were very proud of the effort that they put into the Abraham Accords. And my concern, and even Ambassador Freeman released a book last year, The One Jewish State.
So he certainly understands the importance of Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem biblically and strategically. But what's interesting about the accords, and I think the greatest concern is if it has anything to do with any kind of approval from the state of Israel for a two-state plan, or if there's any compromise when it comes to the boundaries of Judea and Samaria, there will be consequences. And that's what we're praying for right now. That that's fine. Israel, you can have your Abraham Accord deals, but leave the covenant land of Genesis 15, 18 out of any conversation.
Because if the land of Israel, based on history, based on catastrophes, Catastrophes based on consequences if the land of Israel. Is brought into this mix, and there's a discussion about a two-state plan, and that Israel has to make land compromises. There will be consequences. History has shown us that. And folks, you can sign up to receive a lot of the things that Bill Koenig sends out.
Sign up at watch.org. You can also sign up at williamkoenig.com.
So, Tanya, that would be your wife, writes this. Steve Witcoff, the man behind the curtain. Steve Witcoff, Trump's special envoy and real estate mogul, has been a central force in advancing this next phase, but his background raises questions. Witkoff's ties to development and commercial investments across the Gulf are well known. His involvement in infrastructure and real estate initiatives connected to the accords is not mere coincidence.
It's part of the strategy. In essence, this isn't just a peace deal, it's a business deal. One more paragraph here. And in that deal, Covenant Land becomes an asset, a line item, a negotiation tool. If America embraces that model, putting spiritual territory on a commercial scale, it does more than shift policy.
It opens the door to national consequence. I think what my listeners need to understand, and maybe not every listener is following the things that you put out, Bill, and that others are stating as well, that we are at a time where if a mistake is made, huge companies. consequences come to the nation. Tanya detailed that very well. And I think both of us were very concerned when he was selected, Steve Witcoff.
And our discussion is not about him personally. It's about some of the relationships that he has. And we started writing about this in November and went into a lot of details in January and February. He's the one that President Trump has a lifetime friendship with. He's very close to President Trump.
He had a hotel in Manhattan. New York City that was underwater using a real estate term. And the Qatar government came in with $623 million and bought the building from Steve Whitcoff. He has a very close relationship with Qatar. And another thing that was problematic in November, right after the election, is President Trump is looking at the Middle East as a business opportunity, as a real estate opportunity.
And I say this, Jan, over and over. When I speak to audiences, President Trump did more for Israel than all our presidents combined. He had the perfect ambassador and Ambassador Friedman moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. got out of the Iran nuclear deal where we saw $100 billion go to Iran during the Biden administration. And we know where a lot of that money went to supporting the Houthis, Hamas, and Hezbollah.
But the concern here is, and President Trump and Witkoff are doing business in Saudi Arabia and with Qatar and the Emirates and Oman. President Trump's building an 80-story building in Dubai. Also, Steve Witkoff's son is a partner with Eric Trump in a cryptocurrency venture. And we've heard President Trump talking about the development of Gaza.
So these are business guys and they think deals.
So to the benefit of the doubt, that's just the way they look at the world. That's the way they look at things, deals. How do we create more economic opportunities for a Middle East that has so many young people under 30? President Trump's May 13 to May 16 trip to Riyadh and Doha and Abu Dhabi. Talked about the opportunities of the Middle East.
At the same time, talked about trillions of dollars being invested in the United States.
So we're watching it very cautiously. We need to continue to pray that President Trump would honor the covenant. Over any potential business opportunities or deals that he works on in the Middle East. The covenant has the priority in the Middle East. If you just join me, you're listening to Understand the Times Radio.
I'm Jan Markell. I have on the line Bill Koenig. You read him at watch.org. You sign up for his various newsletters. Bill, let me just change the direction slightly here.
The Abrahamic Accords. Could this be the future covenant or part of the covenant confirmed by the Antichrist, Daniel 9:27? And for students of Bible prophecy, this development raises questions, I think, more than geopolitics. Could this alignment between Israel and its neighbors represent the very covenant that the prophet Daniel warned about? And you write about this, and all sorts of people that we know are writing about this, asking this question.
What do you think? And I wrote this in 2020 that I wasn't in favor of the Abraham Accord, but I thought that this Could pave the way to a future deal. Will the Abraham Accords become the Daniel 927? I don't know. Will they lead up to an eventual peace deal?
Yeah, I think we're moving in that direction. I think what's interesting about our American presidents, they've all had a significant biblical role, especially all the way back to George Bush's father and then Bill Clinton and George W. with his two-state plan, Obama with his nuclear deal, with Trump and his movement of the embassy and being such a supporter of Israel. They've all had a biblical role.
So I do think we are moving in that direction in this desire of having peace in the Middle East. And we can look at Ezekiel 38, 11 when it talks at the time that Israel will actually live in unwalled cities and there will be a time of peace. Not knowing how long that will be, but there will be an era of peace for a while.
So we are somewhat concerned, and you certainly brought this out, that I believe Israel had over 50 planes in the air. This was after the Iranian missile attack. And President Trump actually made them turn around. I'm not sure how many people know that. I think this is a little bit problematic.
Would you agree? Yeah, and I don't even know if President Trump even knew it at the time he made his comments. There were five waves of attacks from missiles from Iran up until the last minute of the so-called ceasefire that was, I think, is supposed to take place at 7 a.m. in Tehran. And Israel had these planes up to respond to these five waves of missiles.
And they had 50 or 52 aircraft in the air, and President Trump called them off. He told Netanyahu to stop those planes from going in because they had a very substantial. Plan to hit some significant areas in Iran after those five waves that night.
So President Trump was angry. He told Netanyahu to turn those planes around immediately. I think a couple of the planes hit some radar facilities, but literally those jets turned around and came back to Israel when President Trump expressed his anger about the fact that the ceasefire was going to be violated.
So got a headline, I think, through your website, Bill. Top Iranian cleric issues fatwa against Trump. Religious decree follows a 12-day conflict where Trump-backed operations damaged Iran's nuclear capabilities, but we've got an actual fatwa.
Now, that's bad enough. We know Iran was likely behind the assassination attempts of one year ago. They're not going to give up is my concern. And my concern beyond that, Bill, is they're not going to give up until they succeed in taking out a president.
Now, obviously, prayer makes a huge difference. But I think we need to talk about this for a minute. Prayer makes all the difference. Absolutely all the difference. We just continue to pray.
Even on your program, Jan, the last couple with you, we've talked about the importance of prayer for President Trump and that I believe that he has angelic support that protects him beyond his secret service. I've felt that all along for anybody that's been bold that spoke against Islam, that they have a supernatural protection, as Pat Robertson and Franklin Graham have in the past when they spoke boldly. Yes, we need to boldly speak. And like you said, Jan, they're not going to forget this. Iran took a very significant hit, and they've been embarrassed, and they've done a faunt against President Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu.
And they're calling for any Muslim anywhere in the world to target these gentlemen.
So the covering and protection and intercessory prayer for President Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu has never been more important. I think that's one of the main points of this segment I have with you, Bill.
So I appreciate your clarifying that. I want to also ask you what your thoughts are with this mayoral candidate for New York, Zoran Mamdani. Islamic socialist, bitter anti-Israel man. I don't know how they get any darker than this particular candidate. And I think it's also a very dark day for America.
And we've got, as we speak, people planning to flee New York City and New York State. Did you ever think you would see the day? Quite frankly, I did. Maybe not to this degree. Not to this degree.
No, Jan. I think he's been in the U.S. six years. He's 33, very charismatic. He's a Shiite Muslim, very supportive, I guess, of the 12th Imam eschatology.
Was asked if he would arrest Benjamin Etanyahu if he was in New York. He said, absolutely, he would. And I've been in contact with some people that know a lot about him. And this is a very potentially dangerous person with a radical eschatology. And New York City is one of the most significant, even to this day.
It's a financial center of the world. And it's still a very significant U.S. city. And this does not bode well. I know a lot of the Jewish People that live in New York City, Manhattan, are very concerned about him being the mayor.
We're hearing a lot. And then at the same time, there's progressive Jews that are supportive of him. But I think this is a very problematic situation. And again, we pray that this outcome will not happen in New York City, where he is elected in November. We'll play one more clip, Bill.
It is of you. And I think you put into perspective the prophetic angle here. We're here talking again with Bill Koenig about what's happening in the world, particularly from a prophetic point of view. Bill, you talk a lot about prophecy. You speak about it.
Where are we now in the prophetic timeline? Chris, it seems to be accelerating. Jerusalem is God's time clock. We're watching Jeremiah 49, 35 through 39. That's Elam.
That's modern-day Iran. Obviously, Isaiah 17, 1 talks about the future of Damascus. Also, Ezekiel 38 and 39, the coalition that God brings against Israel, Russia, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, Libya, former Soviet Union countries, and Caucasian Mountains. Watching that very closely, watching the Russia-Iran relationship getting stronger and stronger. And, you know, just a lot's happening.
I'm thankful that Hamas has been dealt with where Israel didn't have to deal with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran at the same time.
So I think we're watching that very closely. Only God knows how this is going to play out. But, you know, all the final day players are taking their position. It does seem to be accelerating. And what an exciting time to be living.
We're watching it right here from Jerusalem. You talk a lot about that on watch.org, your website. When people look at what's happening right now, How can they be prepared and how can they pray about what's happening, particularly for themselves, their communities, their churches, so they don't fall into fear, but they can be in faith?
Well, that's a great question. And I think that a lot of the audiences I speak to, there's a lot of fear and worry. At the same time, we ought to feel blessed by the fact that we understand Genesis to Revelation as the Word of God, 27% of the Bible's prophecy, and the evangelical, born-again part of the church fully understands the biblical significance. The Lord gave us the Bible and the roadmap of how things would play out. And I think what's also important is just keep praising Him, spending more quality time with Him, time with Him, praising Him in prayer, in worship, and time in the Word.
And also seize the moment. This is an opportunity for people to share the gospel and to share the times because a lot of people know something's not normal. These are not normal times.
So this is the opportunity for Christians to seize a moment and bring family, friends. and acquaintances to Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Bill, you write this, and with this we have to wind down this segment. You write the church must rise not to watch, but to warn, not just to pray, but to contend, not just to understand, but to act. The scroll is open, the line is drawn.
Let those who have eyes see, let those who have ears hear. You've got a couple of minutes. If you want to wind down, please do. Jen, I think the prayer is significant. I appreciate what my wife Tanya's been doing is when she writes something, she takes it to prayer.
You know, a lot of us as watchmen, we talk about all these things that are happening, but we don't call people to prayer. And I think that's really a key right now, Jan, for all of us. God gave us an example of what is taking place. And an understanding through the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit that lives in us to put us to work, stay active until he comes, stay occupied until he comes. I mean, some days I look at the news, I'm just like a year's worth of news in a week.
You and I have talked about that many times, Jen, and we're kind of at another stage like that, another moment like that.
So I just encourage Christians to keep praying for family members, people that the Lord puts in front of them, people, associates, people at work. And just start talking to people about the times. Give a biblical perspective because a lot of people, they know something is up. They just don't have a capacity to understand it. But we know what's going on, and this is an opportunity for all of us.
Bill Kennedy, thank you for all you do. Check it out, folks. You can stay up to date daily at watch.org. We'll stay in touch, my friend. Thank you, Jan.
Always a pleasure, and God bless you. All right. Bye now. Say, we have an understanding the times night coming up Thursday, August the 7th here in the Twin Cities. Olive Tree will be co-hosting the event that night and our guests will be.
My dear friend Michelle Bachman, and she will be speaking about a lot of current issues. It is getting more and more difficult to understand the times and be watchmen on the wall, as you have noticed. The time will be 7 p.m. Central. It'll be at Revived Church in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.
Pastor Mark Henry hosts that event. Olive Tree has been a co-sponsor the last few years. The address, 7849 West Broadway, Brooklyn Park. Most of you will live stream at markhenryministries.com or post program on YouTube, Rumble, our website, or you can get a DVD for $10. The event is free and there's plenty of seating.
Now, up next is apologist Frank Turek, who will be the guest of both Ken Michael and Josh Schwartz.
So don't go away. I have always also been a devout atheist, and I've been proud in my belief with that. I find the book, the Bible, to be very fictitious. Book. I find that it has a lot of contradictions that are not squared away.
Let's start with the idea of atheism, if that's okay. I'm going to go through all of the arguments for God's existence. If you look around with creation, there are 15 fine-tuned measurements that if anyone went off by a micron, our entire existence would not exist. The question is: if there is no God, What is the standard that says murder is wrong and rape is wrong and love is good? And why are we obligated to obey it if there is no God?
That's equivalent to the question for me. How do we know that 2 plus 2 is 4 if there's no God? The answer is we know that 2 plus 2 is 4, independent of any kind of evidence or knowledge of God, because we understand the concepts. And though morality is not about numbers, it's about wrongness. And there are certain concepts that are linked necessarily to wrongness, like rape and exploitation, and the list I partly went through.
The question is, why is it wrong to rape or murder if there is no God, there is no purpose to life? And we're just overgrown germs. We're just. As someone said, we're either God imagers or we're clever, murderous monkeys fighting for control over the banana supply. My contention is nothing would exist unless God existed.
As Leiden had said, if there is no God, why is there something rather than nothing at all? And I think math is actually an argument for a mind, and the idea that our universe is mathematically describable, I think, points back to a mind who created and sustains this universe. What do you think happens when you die? Nothing. Our electronic impulses just stop firing and let me ask you the most important question.
Do you hope you're wrong? Not really. Welcome back to Understanding the Times. I'm Ken Michael, and with me, as always, is my co-host, Pastor Josh Schwartz.
Well, we are very excited to introduce our guest today. It's the first time he's been on the program. He's an author, apologist, and president of Cross-Examine Ministry. We'd like to welcome Dr. Frank Turek.
Frank, thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, Ken, thanks for having me on. I just saw my friend Charlie Kirk on there and then me in that video. That's exciting. Yeah, we enjoy listening to both of you guys.
You're a wealth of information.
So before we start in and get into the heart of the questioning, for those listeners who haven't heard you, give us a little bit of your background and what your ministry is about.
Well, I was brought up in New Jersey, so by law, I was Catholic. It's just the law, okay? And I went to Catholic high school, and I always believed in God because I knew there had to be some sort of first cause. But I never knew who Jesus was. It wasn't until I got into the Navy, I ran into the son of a Methodist minister, and I asked so many questions of this kid.
He finally said, Look, You just need to get Josh McDowell books. Evidence Demands a Verdict and More Than a Carpenter. I read those books and realized the evidence for Christianity was good. When I got out of the Navy a few years later, I ran into Norman Geisler, who at the time was like the Michael Jordan of apologetics. And he was starting a seminary here in Charlotte, North Carolina.
We came here to go to seminary, and one thing led to another. He and I wrote a couple of books. One of them is called I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. And since then, I've started the ministry behind me here, crose examine.org, where we go to colleges, high schools, and churches and present the evidence that Christianity is true. And that clip you just saw of me talking to that professor about morality was from a trip we just took to Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan.
Wow, praise God. That is amazing. Praise God for how he works and how you were saved. Your eyes were open to the reality of God's existence and Jesus as Savior. It's really interesting.
I was saved at a conference that Josh McDowell was speaking at as well.
So that's fantastic just to know the fruit that come from his ministry.
Now, Frank, quick introductory question is this. Why are apologetics so important in evangelism?
Well, why should you be a Christian and not an atheist or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist or make up your own religion as so many do today or just a new ager? The reason you ought to be a Christian is because it's actually true. It's actually true that there is a God, you are not him, and that we have sinned morally against God, and he has come into earth, he added humanity to his deity, and he allowed the creatures that rebelled against him, us, to torture and kill him. In order for him to take our punishment upon himself, and then by trusting in him, you can not only be forgiven and given his righteousness. And we know this is so because there's evidence that God exists and there's evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.
And if those two facts are true, that God exists and Jesus rose from the dead. Game over Christianity is true.
So, Christianity is the true worldview. It shows you how reality really is, and it also shows you how you can punch your ticket to eternity. And be forgiven and given the righteousness of Jesus. That's the ultimate identity. Young people are struggling with identity today.
The identity you want to have is an eternal identity given to you by the Creator. Yeah, and I can totally relate to what you said. I grew up in the Catholic faith also, and I remember hearing the gospel for the first time, and I was just blown away. And it really opened my eyes and got me curious. And like you said, you take the facts and evidence, which I did my whole career in law enforcement, and you realize just how infallible the Bible is.
So, my question is, and a lot of young people, and I know you've talked to many, how can we be sure that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?
Well, we go through a lot of evidence for that in the book, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. In fact, we have. A chapter called The Top 10 Reasons We Know the New Testament Writers Told the Truth.
So, after you establish that God exists, the next question you need to discover is: did Jesus really rise from the dead? Because if he rose from the dead, as I mentioned a minute ago, that would mean that Jesus is God and whatever God teaches is true. Jesus taught the entire Old Testament as the word of God and he promised the New Testament. Let me just give you a couple of quick reasons to believe that the New Testament writers are telling the truth. One is, They put so many embarrassing details in their story that.
They're embarrassing, and they never would have invented embarrassing details about their lives if they were trying to pass off. A lie is a truth. They never would have invented this. They never would have said, for example, that. Peter denied Christ three times, that the Lord called their leader Peter Satan.
They would never say they ran away while the women were the first witnesses. The women were the brave ones. They would never say the women were the first witnesses in that culture because it was considered, women were not considered on par with that of a man in terms of their testimony and their credibility. They never would have doubted Jesus after he had risen from the dead. They never would have had Jesus called demon-possessed, or that his own family didn't believe in him, or that his own brothers didn't believe in him.
They never would have hung him on a tree if they're making up a Messiah to the Jews, because according to Deuteronomy 21:23, anyone who's hung on a tree is under God's curse.
Now he was under God's curse, the curse of sin that we put him under. But if you're making up a Messiah to the Jews, you don't hang him on a tree. That's embarrassing. And of course, you don't have him crucified because crucifixion was for criminals. This guy's the Messiah, and you're hanging him on a tree?
Who will? Would make this up? Nobody would make it up. Another reason to believe it's not made up is because they went and died for this when they could have saved themselves by saying it never happened. You know, all of the writers of the New Testament were Jews, they thought they were God's chosen people.
Why would they say a man claimed to be God and rose from the dead? Two things they didn't believe as Jews. Why would they say that happened? Unless it really did happen, because by saying it happened, they got kicked out of the synagogue and then they got beaten, tortured, and killed. That's not a list of perks.
They're not inventing this resurrection story, Jesus is God's story. This must have really happened. And that's just two out of about 10 reasons I could give you. Yeah, Josh, I mean, we talk about this all the time. There were eyewitnesses.
that saw what Christ did throughout his ministry. And even the people that hated him couldn't deny what he did. Yeah. And it's fascinating there, Frank, for you to say that they could have walked away without having this suffering, but by their faith and the reality that these things took place, they endured the suffering. They endured the punishment.
They endured even to the point of death, many of them.
So why would someone die for something that's so made up? If that's really cases. Yeah, and not only that, I know when people say that, they say, What about Muslims? And I always draw a distinction. There's a lot of differences between the Muslim martyrs and the New Testament martyrs.
But let me just give you one difference for our purposes here. The Muslim martyrs haven't witnessed anything that tells them that Islam is true, they just have faith. But the New Testament martyrs witnessed the resurrected Jesus. They saw Jesus. They touched Jesus.
They ate with Jesus. They verified with their own senses that Jesus had risen from the dead. Sure, some people will die for a lie they think is the truth. Nobody will die for a lie they know is a lie. And the New Testament writers were in a position to know whether it was a lie or not, and they went to their deaths anyway.
You can't get better evidence than that unless you were there yourself. Amen and amen. There we go. It is pretty straightforward, folks.
Now, Frank, why study apologetics? Because not only are we commanded to, I mean, I could give you a passage after passage in the Bible that we ought to defend the faith. I mean, the famous one that many people quote is 1 Peter 3:15, which says, always be ready to give an answer. Give a reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect.
Now, the gentleness and respect thing is hard for me because I'm originally from New Jersey, okay? But we're supposed to give evidence for what we believe. That's number one. But number two, as I mentioned earlier, it just makes reasonable sense. Why should you believe something that isn't true?
Why should you devote your life to something that isn't true? In fact, Paul himself said, Look, if Christ has arisen from the dead, your faith's in vain. You might as well eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow we die.
So it just makes practical sense that you ought to get evidence for what you believe. Yeah, so I mean last week we had a former Catholic on and he told us the best way to minister to Catholics and you mentioned Muslims earlier. There are similarities but there are also some distinct differences between those two. Real quick, what is the best way or the best argument we can make when we're evangelizing to Muslims?
Well, first of all, you want to do it privately because they can't lose face in public. Secondly, you need to be aware that if a Muslim leaves Islam, it could be very painful to them, even to the point of death. Surah 3, third chapter in the Quran, basically says anyone who leaves Islam ought to be killed.
Okay, so it's a big deal to leave Islam. But I just point out the internal problem that Muslims have from a logical perspective. I'll get to that in a minute, but you might want to also express that in Christianity, other than being true, it's also a way you can guarantee you're going to get eternal life because it's not based on your good works like in Islam, where Allah is arbitrary and he can just decide whether or not to let you in or not. In Christianity, you can be assured you have eternal life because it's not based on the work we do, it's based on the work Jesus has done. All right.
But here's the big problem with Islam from their perspective: there's something known as the Quranic dilemma. And if you look at surah 5 and surah 4, you can point this out to people. In surah 5, verse 68, it tells. People of the book, Christians and Jews, to obey the Old Testament and the New Testament. It says, Oh, ye people of the book, you have no ground to stand on unless you stand on the law and the gospel.
So essentially, the Quran is saying, obey the Bible, right? The problem is, in the chapter before, Sorah 4, verse 157, it says that Jesus never even died. He was taken straight to heaven, so he couldn't have resurrected from the dead.
Now, here's the dilemma for Muslims. If The Bible is true. Then, obviously, true about Jesus rising from the dead, then obviously the Quran is false. Yeah. However, if the Bible is false, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead and Christianity is not true, the Quran is still false.
Why? Because it's telling people to obey a book that's false.
So, this is a Quranic dilemma. And Muslims are trying to say, Oh, the Bible's been corrupted.
Well, according to their own Quran, it says that Allah's words cannot be abrogated, cannot be changed.
So, how is the Bible corrupted? If the Quran is saying us that the Bible is telling us the Bible is true and Allah's words can't be abrogated, how could it be corrupted? And by the way, we know it's not corrupted because by the time the Quran was written in the 600s AD, we had a complete Bible for over 300 years. We had You know, the manuscript called Sina Catechus from Mount Sinai.
So the idea that Muslims can say the Bible's been corrupted just doesn't, it doesn't work. It doesn't work from their own theology, and it doesn't work from the facts that we had the Bible long before Muhammad ever showed up, and it wasn't corrupted then.
Well, it is quite the dilemma when you break it down.
Well, not to mention that Muslims view Jesus as a holy prophet, a man of Allah. Why was Jesus killed? He was killed because throughout all of his ministry, he said, or through the part of it, he said he was the son of God.
Well, for Muslims, the dilemma is he can't be revered as a holy person and then say he's the son of God. That would be blasphemy against Allah.
So let's transition here a little bit, Frank. And I want to talk about the younger generation. I know you go out to colleges and campuses and talk a lot to younger people. I want to play a clip for you and then get your take on it. If God said that there is gonna be male and female And then there's some variety within that called intersex people.
Why do you guys insist on this binary definition of sex when clearly biology is not so binary? There are intersex people, and you'll say, oh, it's just 1% of people, et cetera, et cetera. And then also, Let's extend that to same-sex relationships.
So you have someone who's born heterosexual, bisexual. Or Homosexual.
So why is there this thing where God would say That's fine, that's fine. But that's not fine. And he creates them knowingly, like that. What is a woman? It's not a trick question.
What is a woman? You mentioned the acorn analogy that an acorn is pre is programmed to grow up into a tree. Um If If things are directed how God wanted them, Then why did he direct me? to love. women as One loves men.
I think that immigration contributes a lot to America. I'm really religious, I'm Catholic, my parents grew me up that way. And in Matthew 2, 13 through 15, it talks about how Jesus had to flee Nazareth, or no, Bethlehem, sorry. He had to flee because someone was going to die. And they were looking to kill him, and he had to flee his own country and leave everything behind because the angel spoke to Mary and Joseph that they should leave.
So, a lot of people. Do that. That's why they immigrate to the United States. A lot of people have to leave everything behind because not everyone just wants to pack up all the things and leave. Right now, I personally would hate if I had to sell my car, my house, leave my parents, leave my friends, and leave everyone.
So I just want to know what your stance is on that, just because in the Bible it talks about that. I was wondering why doesn't the right have like the left has dominated culture for so long. They have, you know, the feminist movement. We can blame that for destroying the nuclear home. We can blame that for destroying marriages in a lot of ways.
But how do we kind of? Work backwards from that, kind of get back to like the core American values. Lower the divorce rate, lower single motherhood, things like that. It doesn't seem to be like a practical solution that's been even attempted by the right. You're listening to Understanding the Times.
We today have Frank Turek as our guest.
Now, Frank, you just heard in that clip a smattering of questions from young people. It seems as though this upcoming generation has questions and they desire answers, and not just pat answers, but actually real answers that are based on fact. And we know that the scriptures say in the book of Jude, specifically verses 22 and 23, have mercy on those who doubt, save others by snatching them out of the fire, and to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
So how do we, as an older generation, approach answer these questions for these young people.
Well, the first two clips you had there are actually clips from our ministry. You didn't include my answer, but if people want to see how I answered the first person and the second person claiming to be a lesbian, the first person claimed to be trans, the second person claimed to be a lesbian. You can go to our YouTube channel, the cross-examined YouTube channel, and you will see those videos, including the answers. You guys just put the questions out there, and now I got to deal with all this in like two minutes. That was the idea.
Okay.
Well, the way you do it is you ask a lot of questions. And I would ask any to any of those questions, the two clips from our ministry and the two clips from Charlie's ministry. The questions that I would be asking them is: by what moral standard are you asking these questions or making these judgments? Because if there is no God, There is no standard that we're obligated to obey, which means anyone who says, like, I have a right to say same-sex marriage or abortion or whatever, I'm going to say, where do rights come from? By what standard are you saying you have a right to anything?
The only way rights exist is if God exists. But God is If he does exist, he doesn't want us to mutilate our perfectly healthy genitals, and he doesn't want us to kill our unborn children.
So it's not a right. To mutilate yourself, and it's not a right to kill an unborn child.
So, either way, whether God exists or not, if God doesn't exist, there are no rights. If God does exist, He doesn't want you to mutilate yourself or to kill your unborn child.
So then, how did we get to this point where there's binary, non-binary? Is this being taught? I mean, these kids actually are coming out and saying, I was born this way. How did we get to this place?
Well, primarily the way we got to it is because the church has been asleep at the switch, because the church gave up interacting with the culture about 100 years ago, back in the so-called fundamentalist movement of the 1920s. Instead of answering and engaging the culture, we separated from the culture and created our own little Bible schools, our own little seminaries. Rather than the schools we began, like Princeton and Harvard and Yale, and starting those schools and staying with them, we abandoned them. We let the secularists take them over. And we, rather than engage the culture, we withdrew from the culture.
And now, once you take the godly people out of the culture, it's no wonder that the culture goes godless.
Now, the church is trying to get back into the culture, and we're finding it harder and harder to do so because it's gone so far into the insanity direction, largely because of our inactivity. And the first thing we ought to teach everybody, regardless of what they believe, is logic.
Okay, instead of teaching logic in public school, we're not teaching them logic. We're not teaching them what to think, we're teaching them how to feel. And if you teach people to follow their feelings without reason or without moral restraint, you're going to get the kind of. of results that we have now, where people are trying to create their own reality. They're trying to create their own genders.
They're trying to create their own rights. They're trying to say my way or the highway, and they have no justification for any of it. Yeah, so young people understand that we live in this physical world and it's based on the physical and emotional mindset of young people. Do you get into the spiritual battle that's going on, that's taking place in their lives and all across the world? Do you explain how Satan hates them to the point where he'll do anything to destroy them?
Do you get into that spiritual aspect of it? We do that during the Q ⁇ A, but when we're on a college campus, we're typically giving the evidence that Christianity is true. We're showing them that truth exists, that God exists, that miracles are possible, and the New Testament's telling us the truth about the resurrection. If those four things are true, that truth exists, God exists, miracles are possible, and Jesus rose from the dead, then we show that Christianity is true and you ought to obey what the Bible says because the Bible is telling the truth about reality. And then we take all sorts of questions.
So, those two clips you showed, one of the transgender student and the other of the lesbian student, one was from University of California at Fresno, the other student was at Towson State in Maryland, and they're asking questions. after they've seen the evidence for Christianity. And that's very important because if you're not going to give the foundation of why there is morality, why the scriptures are trustworthy, why Jesus rose from the dead, then you have no background or foundation to answer those questions with from a moral or spiritual or scriptural point of view.
So, in essence, all of this being said, you're saying that the reason why we are facing the battles that we are today is because it's the fruit of stepping out of the culture. It's a fruit of these Christians and churches having holy huddles instead of taking the scripture seriously with the Great Commission and making disciples in all areas that we are engaging in and living in. Make disciples of all nations. We bought into the viewpoint that you just get saved and you have fire insurance and now you can just sit around and wait for your body to break down so you can go be in heaven with Jesus. No, that's not the purpose of life.
The purpose of life is to know God and to make him known, to make disciples of all nations. And in doing So, we're going to face some opposition. We're going to be persecuted, but we're going to grow through it to the point where we're conformed to the image of his son.
So, then when we're not only saved, ultimately, we're going to be glorified. We're going to become like him, as John says, 1 John 3:2. It doesn't mean we're going to become infinite, but we're going to see him for who he is, and we're going to know. what we were made for. To know God, to enjoy Him forever, but that takes some effort.
You don't just get saved and sit around. Jesus didn't say go make believers, He said, Go make disciples. There's a difference. And so we have to do that and we have to try and show people why they ought to follow Jesus, not just to get fire insurance, but to actually become like Jesus and bring as many other people along with them as they can. Praise God.
And that leads us directly into the next question. And this question, it hits home for a lot of people. And in reality, many people feel unequipped to have real intentional gospel conversations.
So how would you encourage those who are nervous or afraid to talk about Jesus with their friends, their family, or their coworkers?
Well, I think it all starts with the relationship. If you have a relationship with somebody, you have the right then to ask them questions. you know you can ask them questions about uh you know do you think there's anything more to this world than this Uh you know Where do you get your moral standards from? Uh have you ever investigated the claims of Jesus? What do you think life is all about?
What's the purpose of life? Why are we here? What are we supposed to do? What happens when we die? You know, what do you think about all these things?
Just ask them questions and see where they're coming from. And look, when somebody says something, it's not your job to refute what they say, it's their job to support what they say.
So, if someone says something like, Oh, well, I can't believe the Bible because it's been changed throughout the centuries, I'm going to, first question I'm going to ask them is: What do you mean by that? What do you mean it's been changed throughout the centuries? See what they say.
Next question: How did you come to that conclusion? In other words, why do you think that's true? What evidence do you have for that position? I guarantee you the person saying that is not going to say. You know, I've been studying the manuscript evidence for quite a while.
No, they just heard a slogan that they thought might be true, they don't have any evidence for it. But ask them. for evidence for whatever they say. Because look. Before somebody's going to accept what you believe, they have to begin to doubt what they believe.
And the way you doubt, you get them to doubt what they believe is you ask them for evidence. And when they don't have any evidence, they might go, hmm. Maybe I maybe I don't really don't know what I think I know. Wow.
So in essence, you're saying get better at asking penetrating questions and just having real intentional conversations. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look. You know, one thing that's happened since COVID is I think a lot of people, a lot of prominent people have started to consider Christianity because they've seen the ugly face of evil more up close. And they start to realize: well, if there's evil, there must be good.
And if there must be good, then. Maybe there is a god. And maybe my little cushy life here. is threatened and maybe ought to consider Real spirituality real You know, where's all this thing going? What's the meaning of life?
Why are we here? So I think we have an opportunity to talk about those things. And we've seen how corrupt the government has been, and how even our government has lied to us about vaccines, and the CDC became politicized, and all this. People used to trust in those institutions.
Now they go, no. Can't even trust them. What now? Excellent points. Wow.
Well, our guest today has been Dr. Frank Turek. Frank, how can people get a hold of you in your ministry?
Well, we have our website is cross-examined. That's cross-examined with a D on the end of it.org. We do two podcasts a week. Wherever you get podcasts, look for I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. The I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist podcast.
We have a TV show as well. It's on Direct TV channel 378. It's also streamed on our YouTube channel, or I should say streamed on our website at 9 p.m. Eastern every Wednesday night. We go to colleges, we go to high schools, we go to churches, and we present the evidence that Christianity is true.
We're a nonprofit ministry. If people want to donate, they can go to crosexamine.org. And those videos that you showed earlier are from the 20 or so college events we do a year. And we've been doing it for almost 20 years.
So we've been to hundreds of colleges. And tried to present the evidence that Christianity is true. We always get a good crowd, we always get a lot of questions. And there's over 2,700 videos on our YouTube channel. Many of them are short QA videos from the college campus.
So if they go to the cross, examined YouTube channel, that's two words, cross-examine, they'll see them there.
Well, God bless you and your ministry. I want to thank you for joining us. I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you, and God bless. All right, thanks for your service, Ken.
Thanks, Josh. Absolutely.
Well, Ken, that was amazing to have Dr. Frank Turek on and really deal with the importance of apologetics and evangelism in the day and age in which we live. Yeah, so important that we reach out to young people and folks. We need to start ministering to our children and grandchildren first. It's so important because they're spending their entire day being indoctrinated by literally the devil himself.
So make sure you do that, folks. Until next week, make sure to keep looking up. for your redemption draws near. Jesus, honor, and glory be unto your name be unto your name.
