How do Christians Deal with Trump? With Dr. Michael Brown

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This is the Truth Network. Okay friends, Stu Epperson here, Truth Talk, and I'm going to say a name, and that name is going to conjure up a lot of angst. It's going to conjure up... some of you are going to get real excited about that name and say, Oh yeah, Stu, come on, buddy. Some of you are going to get real mad.

You're like, why even bring that name up? Now, you don't know where I'm going with this name yet, and it might surprise you a little bit, but the name is Donald J. Trump. What do you do with Trump? What do Christians do with this guy? He's all over the place. You're wondering, what do I do? Who do I vote for? You know, what about stuff he said, stuff he's done?

What about kind of the meanness you sense sometimes, and other things? He's kind of a rebel without a cause here, and he's got no experience as president. But most importantly, what does a Christian do looking at this election? This is a big election year. There's some heat on either side. There's some heat, and there's some hate. There's Christians that won't even talk to each other because of this guy.

What has happened to his friends? Well, I'm grateful for our guest who is a talk show host. He's a well-published author. He's brilliant in linguistics. He's written all kinds of books, including commentaries on the Bible.

His name is Dr. Michael Brown, and he's written a book called Evangelicals at the Crossroads. Will we pass the Trump test? So Dr. Brown, you don't know how to shy away from controversy, do you, my friend? No, I'm kind of called to it. I'm called to be a lightning rod for it, but it's all to be constructive. I don't look for something controversial to dive into to try to increase ratings or get more viewers or listeners or readers.

I lean into it because this is the world we live in. These are the controversies we face. These are the challenges and the struggles that God's people have to sort out. So I want to do my best to lean into them, really work through the issues, and then present a Christ-like strategy for God's people in the midst of a confused and crazy world. Yeah, and let me ask you about—this is real fascinating, because there's a lot of things Christians talk about.

You and I have debated things. We've debated the gifts of the Holy Spirit, we've debated issues, and I love debating with you because you never insult me, and of course you're a lot smarter than me, which I don't enjoy that part, but you're very gracious, and I listen to your radio show, but I've heard your show and I've heard people get mad. I've heard African-American callers just get mad about Trump, and you didn't even come out promoting Trump, but you're talking about it. What is it about this president that has so many people just incensed and angry, and if you wear his hat, you know, they want to clock you? I mean, what is it about this president that's—in your perspective, as a talk show host, as someone who's trying to, you know, again, like you said, engage the culture?

Yeah, and look, I was a preacher of the gospel and still am, long before I was a talk show host, so it's always gospel first for me, and there are really two distinct answers to why Donald Trump is so controversial and so hated. On the one hand, he's hated by the world because he's taking good stands. He's a strongly pro-life president. At the Republican National Convention this week, Abby Johnson speaks with a strong pro-life message, talking about the horrible procedure that abortion is, Trump's done more for the pro-life cause than any president in history. He stood up for our religious liberties.

He's kept his word and moved the embassy to Jerusalem. He is taking on the political status quo. He is taking on the biased media, and because of that, there's going to be a lot of hostility.

Remember, the same Hollywood that despises him used to want to be on his Celebrity Apprentice show. So, in point of fact, things are dramatically different in terms of his stances. So, on the one hand, he's absolutely hated and despised for that. On the other hand, he carries himself in a way that generates animosity. He can be really nasty, he can be petty, he can be juvenile, he can be thin-skinned, he can be insensitive.

I think during the primaries, when I didn't like him during the primaries, I voted for him against Hillary Clinton, but remember what he said about Ted Cruz's wife during the primaries, and then he claimed that Ted Cruz's father was involved in the assassination of JFK, and throwing people into the bus. Why is that necessary? Why even say that?

Why even bring that up? You just had a big victory. So, you have this guy, look, he gives a great speech on Mount Rushmore, inspirational speech, great speech for civil rights, and then the next day, within hours, he's going after Bubba Wallace, the NASCAR driver, and you're thinking, why are you doing that? So, there's a lot of who he is and his New York brashness that creates all kinds of enemies, and then it gets complex because when Christians vote for him, the same evangelicals who say morality matters, character counts, and I lay this all out in the book Evangelicals at the Crossroads, when Christians who've been shouting morality is the thing and we're the values voters, then we vote for a guy who made his money as a real estate mogul and casino operator with strip clubs, and, you know, the voter passed and married three times and boasting about his adulteries, and a nasty guy and all of this, now we're voting for him and saying he's our man, we seem hypocritical. So, how do we sort that out? That's why I wrote the book.

Okay, very good. Because I do believe, when it comes time to vote, that it's a simple pragmatic choice, and we're voting about policies and decisions that will be made, in which case I think Trump will do a much better job than Biden or Hillary in terms of fighting for the unborn, in terms of standing for religious liberty, in terms of pushing back against radical LGBTQ activism in the schools, in terms of standing for Israel, in terms of opposing the tyranny of China and facing down Iran. Trump's got my vote 100 to 1 over Biden or before that Hillary, but that doesn't mean I have to defend him. That doesn't mean I have to look to him as a savior figure.

Okay, so let's throw in this other one. What about helping the poor? Because the perception by a lot of people is, well, the Democrats care about poor people, they care about the downtrodden. Trump can't stand those poor people, he's a rich trillionaire.

What do you say to that? Is he the guy that's going to really help the poor, the weak, the minorities, the African-American community that's been beaten and beleaguered all these years? So when it comes to actually doing things that will help the impoverished communities or those who may have a strike or two against them based on where they're raised and how they're brought up, he's actually done a lot. Before the virus, the economy was thriving, and that meant the lowest unemployment rates that we had recorded for black Americans, and I believe Hispanic Americans as well. Criminal justice reform helped black Americans more than anyone else in terms of unfair incarcerations or length of sentences and things like that.

So that's major. Trump investing in historic black colleges and universities in ways that have not been done before. I remember reading an article in the New York Times saying, we better nip this in the bud because Trump is doing a lot of good for the black community and they may just turn and vote for him and we better stop this now. So I know that the Democratic argument has been that the Democrats care for the poor and the Republicans don't. I said the Republicans have to do a much better job in reaching out and messaging and saying we actually do care, but we believe there's a better system than the welfare system and the Democratic way of keeping people impoverished in the inner city. So it's just a matter of getting the message out and then, bottom line, Americans are going to vote in a very pragmatic way and they're going to say, hey, I got a job now and I didn't have one before.

Hey, my family is doing better. We got more in our checks, the taxes are lower. That's how a lot of Americans are going to vote.

I'm going to vote based on certain ideals and principles, but that's major. You know, the whole idea of Trump enjoys putting children in cages at the borders, we just have to tell the truth about that knowing some people aren't going to believe it, but at least we can get the truth out. Okay, that's the voice of Dr. Michael Brown. He's passionate about the truth. And I tell you, this is one of the most objective books I've read. He doesn't come out full-blown as an advertorial for President Trump. He actually comes out and says some pretty honest, candid remarks and points. He's got a whole chapter on Never Trumpers, there's a lot out there. Evangelicals who have sworn they'll die before they'll vote for Donald Trump, his book is entitled Evangelicals at the Crossroads, Will We Pass the Trump Test?

What exactly is the Trump test, and what do you do if you're a Christian? You're in the voting booth, and I want to ask him a question that's a bit controversial, but as a parent, I'm trying to teach my kids how to be kind. I saw one of my neighbors has a yard sign up that says, Make America Kind Again, which I like. And we need a lot more of that kindness and gentleness and the fruit of the Spirit, and we're just mistreating people. And Dr. Brown, you've been very gracious with guests. You even have guests on your show that completely disagree with you. I've heard you debate atheists, homosexual activists, and you've been very gracious.

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Dr. Brown, will you address this question about kindness? And even some of the really rough stuff Trump has said, where I've had Christian friends say, Hey, what he said about that lady, I can never bring him up in my family and my kids. I don't want them to be like him.

That and other issues related to arguably one of the most controversial figures in the world, and the President of the United States, Donald Trump, and how does a Christian vote? When we come back, don't touch that dial more with Dr. Brown on Truth Talk after this. I want to say a special thank you to a wonderful partner helping us advance the message of this program, of the gospel. And the thank you goes out to MyPillow.com. Mike Lindell, the inventor and CEO, has now opened his heart to say thank you as well.

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They've jumped on the Trump train. There's a Christian talk show host who's written dozens of books, whose latest book deals with this issue of Christians and Donald Trump directly. I really like how he does it.

I really like how he shows both sides. The book is Evangelicals at the Crossroads. Will we pass the Trump test? I'm Stu Epperson, and our guest, the author of that book, is Dr. Michael Brown. Dr. Brown, I've got to tell you, this was a very compelling book, and I'm reading your book thinking in some times, which way is he going to go? Is he going to come out and say, run away from Trump as fast as you can?

Or is he going to say, cast your ballot? I really appreciated your objectivity, and I appreciate you coming on this radio show and our podcast here, and our broadcast to talk about this. The issue of kindness, where you have a parent that says, I want my kids to be nice, I want my kids to be kind, and they hear this brash, mean guy. What do you say to people that are just completely turned off to this president?

They're like, how can a Christian support a guy like that? Right, it's a very fair question, and of course in my book, I do my best to be fair to all sides as a talk show host for over a dozen years now. You learn a lot from your callers. You listen, you learn, you hear different perspectives, it enlightens you.

I remember one black American caller saying, look, I'm a grandfather. I don't want my grandkids to be influenced by Trump's example, and I understand that. The first thing we do is we make these things into teachable moments.

In other words, let's say we've got kids 12, 14 years old, 16 years old. We sit down and watch a relevant video or press conference and say, what do you think about that? What do you think about that response? What do you think about this tweet? That's wrong.

Mom, you wouldn't let me do that. So what do you think happens when the president does that? Does it help him? Does it hurt?

It hurts. It makes him look bad. So we don't want to do that ourselves because it makes us look bad. Now, at the same time, we pray for him, and here's a lot of good that he did, but just think of how much more good he could do or how easier things could be for him if he didn't create so many unnecessary enemies. He's always going to have his enemies. So you make it into a teachable moment.

That's one thing. And then we explain why we vote for president. It would be wonderful to vote for a president who would be a great role model, but if you think of it through the years, that's really not primarily why we vote for someone. We don't say, I'm going to vote for him.

I'm going to vote for her because that one is going to be a great role model. It's wonderful if that's added in. When it's not added in, it creates more problems, more conflicts, more issues for sure. But we make things into a teachable moment. And ultimately, I do believe personally that Trump is the better candidate by far between him and Hillary Clinton, between him and Joe Biden in terms of the promises he'll keep, in terms of the policies that he'll stand up for, in terms of the justices he'll appoint to the courts.

And these ultimately affect all of us pretty much all the time because things trickle down into our society. At the same time, when I speak of the Trump test, what I mean is, one, can we vote for him as president and support him as president without compromising our Christian witness? And to my surprise, I've had people who are educated, never Trumpers, involved in news and media and all of that. I've had them come to me and say, I was in there with Trump, I read your book, now I'm going to vote for Trump. I thought, wow, that's interesting because that wasn't even the point.

I wasn't trying to get someone to do it. I was trying to show, if you do support him, here's how you can do it while maintaining your witness at the same time. And then the other part of the Trump test is, if we still have divisions and differences about Trump within the body, can we unite around Jesus even if we divide over Trump?

We must find unity in the eyes of a dying-loss world and bring a message of the cross and resurrection and hope and salvation to people who need it, rather than attacking and savaging each other and killing each other instead of helping those that really need the Lord. Okay, that's the voice and the wisdom of Dr. Michael Brown, who wrote this book, Evangelicals at the Crossroads, Will We Pass the Trump Test? If you're a talk show host like he is, if you're a cultural prophet who you speak to these things, you can't avoid this issue. And he's taken it head on, and I'm grateful for his book.

I actually thoroughly enjoyed it. It was quite entertaining to hear how he approached it objectively. So Doc, let's just get real here. You've got a bunch of believers that love the Lord, and a buddy of mine told me he goes to a church where there's quite a few different people of political backgrounds in that church. How do you engage this issue with people who you've got never-Trumpers, you've got people that are holding their nose going to vote for them, you've got people that are full-blown on the Trump train, and if you're not, you're an idiot.

And that's unfortunate. You've got arrogance abounding from the pro-Trump people, you've got enough abounding from the others, you've got people that have been lifelong Democrats. And it doesn't matter if the Democrat candidate axe-murdered somebody, they're going to vote for him. So how does a believer—we know how the world does it, just turn your TV on at night and you'll see the hate going around, you'll see the evil spewing and the anger and the venom and the vitriol, but Dr. Brown, as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, who may have different political aspirations or political viewpoints, how do we graciously engage? Will you lay some ground rules down for us? I know you actually modeled this in your book, which I hope everyone will read, but how do we graciously engage this issue that's so controversial?

It's critical that we do it right, and it's very easy. You find people that you respect as believers—in other words, someone that you know from your church or you know on social media— that you respect as a genuine believer, and they have a very different political perspective than you do. I'm talking about fellow American, fellow believer.

Say, please share with me, from your perspective as a Christian, you're pro-life, you oppose homosexual marriage, we stand together on issues, we believe in the inspiration of Scripture and only salvation through Jesus, and yet you plan to vote, say, for Biden. I don't get it. I mean, personally, I don't get it. I'm being honest.

I don't get it. Explain your position. I don't want to argue with you. I want to understand where you're coming from and why. I had a dialogue with a black brother, and it was off the air, and he said, look, you want to see conservative justices appointed, my studies indicate that those justices will sentence blacks to longer prison sentences for identical crimes to whites. That concerns me.

Okay, well, that's a perspective I hadn't thought about. I was talking to a black pastor in New York once. He said, you want to get prayer back in the schools?

I want to get education back in the schools. In other words, very, very different perspectives. That's just a black-white issue. I mean, it divides you in many different directions, social status and other background and things like that. But I ask people, please tell me why you feel the way you do. Give me your perspective. And I listen not to argue, but to understand. I ask them questions, not to prove them wrong, but to probe and better understand, and then if they feel I've really given them a hearing, generally they're willing to give me a hearing. Let me explain my perspective.

And then at the very least, you don't lose your esteem for this person. Because, Stu, I've been on radio shows where the host tells me, I cannot understand how you can be a Christian and not vote for Trump. If you're saved, you vote for Trump. It's that simple. And then I go to do another radio interview on another station, and they say, I don't understand how you can be a Christian and vote for Trump. If you're saved, you can't vote for him.

Isn't this wild? We've got to do better than that. And I understand, you know, your audience is going to be more largely pro-Trump than another audience right doing an interview. Same with my listenership. I voted for the 2016 plan to in 2020, but the message I shout to the world when I'm on secular media, Donald Trump is my president. He gets my vote.

That's it. Jesus is my Lord, my savior. He's my all-in-all. He gets my heart, my soul, my mind, my devotion. I'll die for him. I'll vote for Trump.

I'll die for Jesus. There's a big difference. I like that.

I like that a lot. Now, one of the biggest controversies is the African-American vote, and there's been some ripplings and some interesting changes there. You've dealt with that, the Black Lives Matter movement. Dr. Brown, can you stay on with us for another quick segment to talk about that? I just really want to get to that. Do you have time? Sure thing.

Hang on, we'll address that head on as he does, and he does it on his show. What's your website for your program? Is it still askdrbrown.org? Is that right? Did I remember that right? Yeah, askdrbrown.org.

Best place to go for all of our resources. Okay, hang on. The black Americans have been traditionally Democrat. Is that changing? Should it change? What's happening in that movement, and how does Dr. Brown speak to that when we come back right here on Truth Talk with Stu Epperson?

True Commentary with Stu Epperson, author of the book First Words of Jesus, available now in bookstores, or go online to firstwordsofjesus.com. I've got some wonderful African-American friends that they've always voted Democrat, they're always going to vote Democrat, they love Barack Obama, and there's no change in their mind until recently. There's been some changes there, there have been some issues.

But you know what? If they have Christ in them, and I have Christ in me, we're still brothers in Christ. And why are Christians needing to hate each other, and not come together around the Lord?

Dr. Michael Brown has written a very controversial book addressing this, and The Black Vote, which is traditionally gone Democrat. He's with us right now, and he's willing to take the heat and face the fire on this show, Truth Talk. His show's called The Line of Fire, so he already has the name of his show, which is very much in line with what happens on his program if you've never heard it. He brings people on from the other side in debates in which it's healthy for Christians. Doc, is there a way for us to debate things and disagree on things, but still be friends? Is that possible in this culture?

It has to be. I mean, first, I've experienced it for many years. In fact, I've gotten closer to people through some of the debates. Obviously, the debates have happened at the end. You know, I'm grieved over the other person's position, and they're grieved over mine, and we shake hands cordially, and that's it. But my friend Rabbi Shmueli, we've debated maybe 20 times on TV, on radio, and university campuses, even at Oxford University, and we've become dear friends. I've become close with his family through it.

A dear friend, Dr. James White, Calvinist, a cessationist, so I'm charismatic, Arminian. We've debated against each other, but our greatest joys, we've only been able to do it twice so far, is to do a two-against-two debate where we're on the same side, and it's been an incredible unity. We almost finished one of those thoughts, like James says, one mind, you know, two voices.

So you can absolutely do it, and in fact, some of the people that I've really gotten to know over the years and respect are the people I've had differences with, and that's forced us to talk and get to know each other. And look, we can look at different communities, and whatever our perspective is, we all have blind spots. So for example, we can say, well, why have blacks overwhelmingly voted Democrat? And then they could say, well, why have white evangelicals overwhelmingly voted Republican? And we say, oh, no, no, no, it's not group thing for us, it's not group thing for us.

So everybody can look a certain way. American Jews have overwhelmingly voted Democrat. There's been a bit of a shift in recent years, especially religious Jews voting Republican, but there are things that are done for generations, and we have certain perspectives we bring. When there was the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman, I was determined to talk about it on the air and to probe listeners from all backgrounds and ethnicities to see how we see the world. And it was very helpful for me to get calls from black Americans, one being a pastor, others saying, Dr. Brown, we love your show, we listen to you every day, my whole family loves your show. But you've got to understand, when our boys get to be 16, 17 years old, we have to have the talk with them. We have to tell them, now listen, if a police never pulls you over and speaks too harshly or wants to search your car for no reason, you just, yes, sir, otherwise you may get shot. I've never had a conversation like that with my kids or with my grandkids now, white kids.

It doesn't happen to us. In other words, we grow up certain ways, and we may not have a racist bone in our body, but we have different backgrounds, we have different perspectives. So I do want to challenge everyone that is historically voted Democrat, that calls themselves a follower of Jesus, to look at party platforms, to look at decisions that presidents have made and how that affects the nation, and to say, okay, what is the most righteous and pragmatic way to vote? And I'm very happy for people to challenge me and raise the issues and lay things out. And I respect, if someone says I just can't vote, I respect that, I'm not going to lay a guilt trip on them and say, well, a non-vote is a voter. You have to act your conscience. But let us cultivate a spirit and attitude of respect. None of us are right all the time about everything.

I get frustrated sometimes with these hypercritics. They're the only ones who are theologically right and they're going to tear everybody down. I'm thinking, with my educational background, I can tear you down. I can tear up your stuff and criticize your stuff.

I'm not here to tear down, I'm here to build up. So let's be respectful where there is error, there is sin, let's confront it. But otherwise, let's be respectful, let's not divide over secondary issues, and let's pray for each other that where we have blind spots, we'll be able to see better. I tell people all the time, if I got a blind spot, show me.

I'm 65 years old now, I'm sure I still got plenty left, and you don't know what you don't know. Just like driving in your car, the reason you wrecked your car and drove into the person to your left was because they were in your blind spot and you didn't know it. So until someone points it out or experience points it out, we're going to have blind spots. Lord, help us to see clearly.

That's a great word. So Black Lives Matter, I know there's a movement, there's an organization that says it's actually some pretty dangerous people in the movement, but the statement on the surface, as any believer has to agree, that of course Black Lives Matter to God for sure, and should and should be loved and cared for, they more than matter, they're made in His image. But there are some dangerous people like Antifa and others that have kind of hijacked that motto and turned it into some dangerous things. But Dr. Brown, how have you approached all of that with our dear African-American friends who've been hurt, who've been wounded? I mean, if I'm going two miles over the speed limit, I'm not looking over my shoulder, I'm not worried about a cop pulling me over, but I've got black friends that have had that happen, they've been humiliated. And I'm not saying every cop does that, and I'm not saying every African-American experiences that, but I'm saying there is a real sense of pain in that community that the President, going back to him, I mean, for Pete's sake, Donald Trump, go put your arm around an African-American and say, you matter, I love you. I mean, show a little compassion. It's as though he thinks compassion is a sign of weakness. So I don't think he's a racist, but Dr. Brown, how do you address that?

Quickly. Let's separate the Trump part from it, even though we're talking about my book, Evangelicals at the Crossroads, and dealing with Trump. I would separate that because my black American friends who have met with the President, colleagues who have met with him, to a person, talk about his care and what really appears to be compassion in person, and in terms of getting involved and wanting to bring about change in the inner city, some of the speakers at the Republican National Convention, black speakers, I think he's making it clear that Black Lives Matter in sight, the moment the George Floyd thing came out, he immediately said, we need to investigate this on a federal level.

This is horrible. And look, he offends everybody. He says things that are insensitive to everybody. But I want to separate him from the conversation for a moment to say that I have been shouting at the top of my lungs that Black Lives Matter. And you say, why not just say all lives matter?

Because that's not being debated at the moment. That through much of American history, the feeling was that black lives do not matter. And to this moment, many black Americans do not have confidence in the system. In other words, if there is a say, let's just say there was a black man who kills a white man in cold blood, most white Americans would have confidence in the system. OK, justice is going to be done.

You know, this guy's not just going to get off easily. But if it was flipped around, many black Americans would think not the white guy's going to walk. The system doesn't work for us. So we need to say Black Lives Matter and proclaim that while absolutely categorically separating from the BLM movement, absolutely say that movement is Marxist, that movement is radical feminist, that movement is radical transgender and queer. That movement is ultimately anti-God, anti-Christ, anti-Bible. That's why it's no surprise to see some of the riots attacking synagogues and vandalizing synagogues, burning church buildings, burning Bibles.

It is lawlessness. So we categorically separate from the BLM movement while shouting out that Black Lives Matter. In fact, shouting out every black life matters from the womb to the one killed unfairly by a cop to the three year old gunned down in inner city gang war. Every black life matters and that we want to work together as a community of believers and as Americans to address issues that still exist in our society, even if it's just the legacy of generations of slavery and segregation and the inequalities that were never leveled out. Let's hear one another. Let's understand.

You know, someone said to me the other day, I don't care what you say. I just want you to listen. I just want you to hear what I'm saying. It's like, OK, that's where we start. And then we listen and then we get involved righteously as we can. But I want to warn Americans, I have been for week in and week out, the BLM movement is dangerous. You don't want to be part of it.

It's going to turn on you. But we want to shout out Black Lives Matter. And when we see injustice, we want to confront it.

That's what we do as followers of Jesus. OK, wow. He's spoken prophetically, Dr. Michael Brown, who's spoken in his book that is really getting everyone worked up. But it is wild that you told me that you wrote it in one of your editorial people or a guy that you had look at it, a publisher or something read it.

He was a Never Trumper. He read your book and called you back and said, wow, you changed my mind. So you're having those kind of feedback from people. Yeah, I mean, he even he shouted to me, you've got to publish this book. He said there are tens of millions of Jesus loving people out there that need to read it. So I'm hoping it will have a positive influence and above all, help us to put the cross before the flag to proclaim Trump may be our president, but Jesus is our savior to put spiritual activity before political activity. Obviously, we can't get into it now, but I have a tenfold strategy that the book ends with for followers of Jesus to act righteously, to vote our conscience, but to put our witness first and foremost above everything.

I love it. And that's exactly right. Do you care more about your neighbors' salvation? They're on their way to hell, they don't know Christ, than you do about their political persuasion. What are you doing to lead people to Christ, to bring souls to the kingdom while we're still here? Christ hasn't come back yet.

There's two billion people on the planet that are lost. So don't get caught up in this political wave in emotion and tension when we need to be ministering and being the arms and feet of Jesus. And yes, as citizens we should be concerned. We have a stewardship of our vote, and we need to really pray through this. But this is a book that will help you objectively look at the pros and cons of this most controversial president through the lens of an evangelical author who loves Jesus, who has a school, who also is a talk show host, Dr. Michael Brown. And the book, Evangelicals at the Crossroads, will we pass the Trump test?

You put Trump and test in the same line very wisely, because it is quite a test to a lot of folks. Dr. Brown, thanks for being on with us, of course. We're not telling everyone how to vote here, but we're having guests like Dr. Brown to get people thinking and to challenge your thinking, and to take all of this to the Lord. But be informed, be advised, and I love what he said about keeping your witness first. Best way to get the book, Doc, how are you telling people to get the book, Evangelicals at the Crossroads? Yeah, they can go to our website, askdrbrown.org, or they can just order on Amazon. It's there.

If they want to get the e-book, they can do it over at Amazon or other major book dealers. Okay, and I can't say this about every guest, but this guest will welcome anyone. If there's an aggressively anti-Trump or someone who would be against what Dr. Brown has said, Doc, you invite these kind of people on your show all the time.

I wish I could get more to come on. I invite the critics, those hostile. Every time we open the phone lines, I'm looking for people that disagree.

Very few take me up on the offer, but the offer stands. Call in the show, tell them why I'm wrong. Okay, and share this broadcast. We'll make it a podcast with everyone you can to get thinking about this.

And I'd love your feedback, and I'd love to hear from you if you totally disagree. And we want to reach as many people with the good news of Christ. We're in the middle of a culture, and Christians need to be having conversations like this one, but in a gracious way. And if someone disagrees with you, love them. Pray for them.

Be their friend, for Pete's sake. There's going to be a lot of people that are Republicans that spend eternity in hell. There's going to be a lot of people that are Democrats with the same fate.

If you don't know Christ, it doesn't matter your political party. So like the doctor said, Dr. Brown, I'm going to have to use that with your permission, putting the cross before the flag. Yes, sir.

Do it. That's awesome. God bless you. Thanks for being on, man. What a treat. And you have a blessed day, and I guess I'll hear you on the radio next time you open your mic up to do your show, The Line of Fire.

Sounds like a plan. God bless you. Thank you. Yes, sir. Thank you. Bye bye.