What Was Your Crusade Story

This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Truth Talk Live. All right, let's talk. The truth is, I can't hide it. Yeah.

A daily program powered by the Truth Network. This is kind of a great thing, and I'll tell you what. Where pop culture, current events, and theology all come together. Speak your mind. And now, here's today's Truth Talk Live host.

The largest. Crusade ever in the state of Utah was last night, the Greg Laurie Harvest Crusade. Were you there? What did you see? What are your thoughts?

We would love to hear from you, especially those in Utah that got a chance to see it. 866, the number to call, 866-348-7884-866-348. 7884. Have you ever attended a crusade? What happened?

Maybe you had been another Greg Laurie Crusader or Billy Graham. What? Was your experience? We would love to hear it. 866-348-7884.

So honored to have my colleague Rusty East, Rusty East, with me. And it was a big, big, big event last night, right? Yeah, I had a great time yesterday evening. Amazing, amazing. Praise God.

So What did you see? Oh, I saw. A married couple that wanted to put their faith and trust in Christ alone. You become born again. Their names were Stephen and Francesca.

I got to pray with them. Give them a Bible. And just encourage them for the decision that they had made that day, that evening, last night. At the Greg Laurie Harvest Crusade Outreach. A gentleman probably, those guys were probably in their 20s, mid-20s.

And then there was We had, let's see, Josh. Josh is probably about 30. And he said he wanted to put his faith in Christ. And did the same with it for him. I wrote in his Bible, I said, on the occasion of your spiritual birthday.

And then they do a really cool thing. They take their phone and they scan a QR code, and then they can connect with Harvest. And then Harvest will give them their information. to local churches that had Signed up for the uh the the live streaming. of the event So if they live close by a church that is Uh that did this live stream, they'll be given some contact information of that church and so forth and so and vice versa.

So it's just an amazing thing. And then also, I was just walking around the floor, and an older man said, Hey, this young lady needs to talk to somebody. And so her name was Francine. And she just put her faith in Christ and so. Talked to her for just a minute or two, prayed with her, gave her a Bible.

Just to see this l this look in their eyes of these people that are like Wow, something just happened here. This is beyond words. It was really incredible. Wow.

So overall, Rusty. How many folks did you think were there? Do you know how many decisions were made? I have not been given a number, but I I don't want to overestimate. I don't want to do that, of course, but I will just say it was more people than would happen, I think, on a normal everyday event.

I just think I'm the these this is what we want to pose to our listeners. today is have you been to did you go to this Event in Utah? And have you been to a Greg Laurie or another type of a crusade or a or evangelistic event? And should we try to seek the Lord? Maybe we need to do more of these.

Maybe we've kind of dropped off and we need to seek out people that have that kind of gift of of of preaching the gospel in this kind of fashion and So I'm excited to see that this isn't just a one-time thing. I'm hoping that there'll be other musicians and can you give us some sense of it?

So how large was the the um of Essentially, the arena. Yeah, I think there were about 6,000 people that were in there. I believe is is about what it was. And and then you know the floor space had counselors. uh follow up people, people di getting Bibles to those others and stuff.

So That there had to have been like, I would say, probably I would say like about I don't know, a couple hundred people. They'd probably put their faith in Christ, I'll bet. I mean, I'm just I'm trying to underestimate a little bit 'cause I don't want to inflate the numbers. But but even but if there are 200 people that that got saved that night, that would be maybe on the low estimation. I'm sure we can find out from The harvest people, you know.

No, I'm sure we will. I'm just trying to get a sense of so. Yeah. And again, the venue there was where? It was at Utah Valley University's Basketball arena.

So they call it the UCCU Center. It stands for like a Utah Credit Union or something like that. But it's where they play their basketball. Uh arena.

So indoor and It was right there at the same place where Charlie Kirk same campus where Charlie Kirk was shot. A couple of months ago. Yeah, so we were on the same campus. And they they they they give they gave him some honor and in the beginning of the event. That's how things started off.

And just trying to never forget his testimony and how someone like Charlie Kirk has used him even in his death. you know, to to bring about this harvest group in a more expedited fashion. You know, they were going to be here in 2027, but the church people here in Utha said, could you guys come earlier? And I'm so glad they did. What a great.

Great. level of Of just kindness and cooperation and professionalism in the sense of like excellence. They don't cut any corners. They just do an amazing, amazing work. I could go on and on about it.

That's beautiful.

Well, again, we would love to hear from our listeners, especially those in Utah that might have attended. Or you knew somebody that attended, or you had some impact from this event. You call us. We would love to hear from you. 866-348-7884-866-3487.

Seven, eight, eight, four, you know, what did you see? What did you experience? It is amazing that they were able to expedite it in that manner, and I know. There was a whole lot of people that have been praying for this event ahead of time. And and it's like Like it like it was billed.

It's one of the largest crusades ever in the state of Utah. Yeah, yeah, it was so amazing is that this organization they've done this so many times. It's so obvious that God's called them to do this because they had. Volunteers there that were just in charge of prayer. You had praying intercessors for the event all throughout the evening.

And they had the ushers that had a certain role to help people to their seats and things. And then they had people like myself that would. be the follow up for the decisions that have been made and talking to people like that. Um I went up and to the to the to the stands I just felt like I thought I saw someone was trying to get my attention. And this one guy, he said, well, could I have a Bible?

And I said, well, it's for people really put their faith in Christ, you know? And he's like, okay, well. have an extra one I'd like to just I'm curious you know so I gave him one, you know, and so that was exciting. I haven't even mentioned about the music. My word, it's like we had Phil Wickham.

And he had so much energy. I couldn't believe it. What a great. encouragement he was with his encouraging songs and how everybody's just singing with him. And he is awesome.

Well, good news: we got Lisa is in Utah. Lisa, you have some information for us. We'd love to hear it. Hi, yes. I was there last night with my son.

Oh, wow. And we did some volunteering. string and then we Which was absolutely amazing. It was so powerful. And the amount of people that got saved last night was such a an emotional touching The music was beautiful.

Everything was perfect. It was a wonderful night.

Well, I am so glad. And and how old's your son? He's 14. How cool is that that he got to be there and w do you know what his impression was of it? He loved it.

He absolutely loved it. And he wanted to make sure that we volunteered as well. That was really important to him. And he said he loved it. It was his first concert music experience, and he thought it was really cool.

Oh, that is cool. I am so grateful for your call, Lisa, and so grateful that you had a chance to attend. And that you listen to the Truth Network. That's all together. What a package.

Yes, me and my son both listen to it. Thank you again.

Well, we got to run to a break when we got back. We got a whole lot more from Utah, as well as we got busmen in Ohio. And who knows? We need you. 866-348-7884.

We'll be right back. Welcome back to Truth Talk Live. Today we are talking about the largest. Crusade ever in the state of Utah. Last night we had Greg Laurie and Harvest Crusade.

And were you there? That's the question we would love to hear from those in Utah, especially that might have been there, might have experienced it. Like we just heard from Lisa and her son, how exciting was that? Your number to call in: 866-348-7884. But also, have you ever attended a crusade?

What happened to you? What are your thoughts? On this way of evangelism, we got Russ East is in Utah. We got Buskman in Ohio. Buskman, you're on Truth Talk Live.

Hey, always a pleasure. Thanks for having me there, Robbie. We got another guest, another caller in?

Well, we always got we got Rusty, who's but no, you you would be the next I'm hoping we'll get somebody else from Utah quickly, but at this point, no. Yeah, I wish I could have gone just for journalistic purposes. You know, I'm in Dayton, Ohio there, Brother Robbie. But what I would like to ask the Truth Talk listeners, this has been. I don't know if you've been following the Charlie Kirk.

Uh series, I like to call it a series 'cause it seems like a series of events. Ever since his passing, his horrible passing on September the 10th.

So what I would like to ask the Truth Talk listeners. Uh, they're in Utah, and if you wouldn't mind calling in, I would like to hear off the air, guys. Um was any of you present? At at Charlie's uh shooting. I know that's a tough subject.

But there's all these conspiracies, Robbie. That's saying he's not really dead. He didn't really get shot. There's actually a faction of people, and we're talking about believers even. saying uh it was a it was an elaborate political Move, you know, an operation to cause, you know, everybody to believe that he's not.

To believe that he's dead when he's really not. And I would like to know if anybody was on the campus. the horrible day that dear brother Charlie was shot. and what they're on. the the spot uh experience was from the Utah University.

So that's all I got there, Brother Abby, other than thank you so much. And I love to hear the the great testimonies of what happened with Greg Laurie's event. On behalf of People starting their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. And I was just like, if there's somebody that comes to Christ. Through Greg's event, I would, and they was the first time.

I would love that you announced the names, Robbie. And Busman out here in Dayton, Ohio, will trade for that young name. Yeah, Rusty, you had some names for us at the beginning of the show. Oh, that's great. That's great.

I'll be quiet. We'll announce them again. Thank you, Bussman. I appreciate you calling in. God bless.

Thank you, Robbie. God bless you guys. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. So those names again, Rusty, so the people can be palette.

Let me just mention one, his name is Josh. And he was probably about 30 years old. And then there's another couple probably in their twenties And that would have been Francesca and Stephen.

So, the other young girl, I think she was a little younger.

So, I'll refrain from giving her name out just for sake of some logistical reasons there, just out of privacy and some things there, just to be careful. But very sincere, all four of those people, it was just amazing. You know, um What a privilege it was and just to watch other people talking to those who had put their faith in Christ. And you'd see people come down out of the stands and they'd be with tears in their eyes. And you'd see like a mom with like some other younger girls just embracing them and just talking to people and just these people that just were excited about God's word.

And You know, because in Utah, you know, um This kind of an event, I mean, like you said, this is the first time we've had something this big. Ever, you know, and to have Such amazing musical talent all wrapped in together. You know, we've tried to bring in our little ministry, Utah Partnerships for Christ. We brought in a musician named Holvey, Christopher Holvey, and we had a salvation message given at the end. And I just think.

Well, if there's anybody who would like some support in how to pull that off, And to do that in a God-honoring way, kind of like a mini-crusade. You know, I mean, let's do that together. Let's work together with the Truth Network. We'll help get the word out. And Utah Partnerships for Christ can help with some boots on the ground with maybe some mission team members from around the country that could come and help with logistics and things like that.

But I just think there's a lot of. power behind Just having music, praise to God, and then how that just sets an atmosphere. like that we experienced last night. And it just. It just reminds you, you know, of the beauty of God's grace.

And when you when you hear thousands of people singing and praising God, I mean, we had, we had. people from all different walks of life. At that event last night, four rows in front of me was the former governor of the state of Utah. Governor Herbert was there.

Somebody you can pray for right there, Buffman. Yeah, you know, and I think there were a couple of congressmen that were there too. And, you know, even like the prophet of the Mormon church. was not there, but but Greg Laurie got to meet with him. before the event.

And just told them what we were doing.

So pray for Dallin Oaks. There's someone you can pray for. Wouldn't that be a miracle if he became a born-again Christian? That'd be amazing, you know? And so we just, we have to.

Trust God and just be in prayer and just keep on looking to Him. For the perseverance. You know, I was so blessed when we had our Thanksgiving banquet on Friday night, the 14th. And we had David and Mark. Uh and and uh uh Richard and their spouses from Harvest.

They came out to our dinner that we had in Sandy. And they were so gracious. Here, they're putting on something with 6,000, 7,000 people, probably, I don't know, 6,000 people or so. And we have a little, sweet little group of people, maybe like 65 people, you know. And I was so thankful for their encouragement to me, you know, that we had some praise music and we had our.

or time of sharing some devotionals from some local pastors and They were just so kind, you know, and I can really see. The fruit of the spirit. In these people, you know, and So yeah, we'd love to hear from any of the Um of the Utah listeners here, like Lisa. Thank you, Lisa, for calling in. And we just want to encourage you.

Um If we can be thinking big, and maybe your church or ministry would like to get in contact with me here in Utah. you know, you're representative with truth Let's let's let's let's pray and let's get together and let's let's get some Cooperation going, and let's do something like this on a smaller level. In your community, I think that'd be exciting. I'd love to hear from more listeners too, their experience in going to like.

something that my wife's grandfather did back in the 40s. And that his n his name was Jack Wurtson. And and so back in the nineteen forties, he would Go to places like Yankee Stadium and set up these similar kinds of outreaches and stuff, and people would get saved.

So, um I'd love to hear from listeners and see how God used used that kind of a venue. This number to call, 866-348, 7884-866-348. 7884. If you were there last night or You know, maybe you got an opinion on this type of uh event or or some feedback along those lines. It's a live show.

We would love to hear from you. 866-348-6. Seven eight eight four. I know, um, Russ, there's a lot of confusion. amongst a lot of folks on exactly what Mormons do believe.

And so it The the The the I'm interested. The governor was there, but I'm assuming he isn't a Christian. I don't know for a fact. I don't know for a fact. But it's just exciting just to think about people from all walks of life that you're represented by.

I wonder how a Christian could get elected in Utah, whether it be pretty much in the minority. But what say you? You got a question for Rusty or about the event? We would love to hear from you. We got a special guest coming on after the break, 866-3487884.

866-34 TRUTH. If you are in markets that don't carry it, go to the podcast. I mean, go to the. Truth Network.com. Welcome back to True Talk Live.

Today we're talking about the crusade last night, Greg Laurie's Harvest Crusade there in Utah. Amazing, exciting stuff. And uh We are more than blessed to have Russ East with us. uh from our station there in Utah. And he was at the event last night.

And as well as now, Russ, your guest, Tom, is with us as well. Great, great. Hey, Tom. I wanted to ask you, Tom, you know, when we think about our friends who are members of. the Mormon Church.

And we think about the fact that both you and myself We're saved out of the Mormon church. We came to Christ when we were both. about 14 years old. Um We see some differences, don't we? And a lot of differences, to say the least.

And it makes us just love and reach out to the Mormons all the more because we want them to experience. The grace and truth and love of Christ so much. But could you help our listeners understand a little bit about and by the way, Tom is is on staff at the Bridge Community Church in Centerville, Utah. And I met him while I was showing my Bible exhibit, Bible history exhibit. uh pieces at their church a few weeks back.

But Why do Mormons sometimes resist the message of salvation seeing that they've been taught kind of a bill of goods It teaches that you can get to different levels of of heaven. And so there's this reward system that's been twisted. We have the the judgment seat of Christ for believers. We have the great white throne. It's a big topic, and we're not going to be able to exhaust it on Truth Talk Live today, but Could you help our listeners understand some of the Mormon teaching on Judgment after death, and how it's so different than what is really biblical.

Sure. First of all, hello everybody. And if you're listening, thanks for being on and thanks for having me on the show today. One of the things that's really kind of important for us to grasp when we think about works. It's actually I'm being sympathetic here because We all want to achieve something.

We all want to feel like we pulled something off, and that's precisely what happens within a Mormon context.

So there's a series of works that is put forth to membership. And if they perform those well, they can check the box and they can earn their way forward. And so I've actually said this on the air several times: that within a Mormon framework, what you have is Jesus. nominally present but powerless to save you.

So, what happens is his sacrifice is said to make a way for you to do temple work, to pay your tithing, to do a myriad of things that you need to do to earn your way forward. And what that does is it creates a system of rewards in heaven for LDS folks.

So levels of degrees of glory, the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdom. And even within the celestial kingdom, I've heard it said that there are various degrees of rewards for more performance and better performance. Before Jesus, that actually doesn't fly. If you look at his parable in Matthew 20 about the laborers in the field. He actually says at the end of that parable that he gives the same.

Reward. to everybody. Those who show up and work hard at first, and those who come at the last minute. And I'd just be sympathetic to one more thing: the grace and the gospel, it is ridiculous to people. It's like, what do you mean that I can live my life heinously?

and just pray a prayer on my deathbed and come to heaven.

Well, that's exactly what Jesus said. It is that ridiculous. It is that good. God is that loving and that good that if you cry out to him, he will forgive you. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Absolutely. And You know What do you, you know, as you guys were there last night, Rusty or Tom, either one that would want to speak to it. Was did you s notice something directly said in Greg's message that was specifically to that group? Oh, Tom, what do you think about that? Tom, you were doing the Simulcast the live streaming at your church.

Tell us a little bit about. how you would answer that question from Robbie. Sure. Sure. Well, Pastor Greg actually did a fantastic job of interacting with his audience.

I could hear his tone and his inflection towards our LDS friends who were there and who were present. And he actually mentioned in the parable of the lost sons, the prodigal son is the one we often focus on and think about. who went out and wasted his father's wealth and then came home. But then he said there was another son. And it was the elder brother who had always been home and was very religious.

And just through that emphasis there, he definitely utilized that to speak to those who are adhering to religion and adhering to a works-based system of it all depends on me and it all depends on my performance and it all depends on how good I do for God, which he masterfully brought that home to the gospel that, no, the work is finished in Christ. And so I felt like he did a really good job there. That's beautiful.

And that other Son, he was trying to say, Look at how I've always done this and that for you, Father. And I think the father was just trying to say, you're just my son. I mean, you know, he tried to say, okay, yeah, you might be so, but you might be that kind of a son. But you've got kind of a. Kind of a rotten attitude right now towards your brother.

And so he's trying to go back to the idea of. Just this this kind of um Part of the prodigal and the love of the father, and getting that relationship proper, you know, but how it was ruined with Adam. You know, and sin fell upon all mankind. And so, yeah, those parables Jesus would taught, they really get you to think and they get you to. To talk, you know, and like what Tom was saying about the worker out in the field.

I mean, that just doesn't make any sense, right, Robbie? I mean, I mean, who who wants who would pay somebody the same amount? if who worked twelve hours or two hours or wha however that was described, you know? But God's grace is something that is really, really extravagant and amazing. And And I'm just wondering, Tom, like when you were doing the simulcast at your church, what did you remember some feedback from others that were there at the church.

that were watching and listening and Just any and tell us any of your other feedback from others that might have shared with you.

Well, it was actually kind of a unique event. We you know contrast or contrary to what happened down at Utah Valley University, you know, we had probably 50 to 75 people total in our church. And looking out over the audience, there were believers there, but there were some that were curious or seeking or had not crossed the line of faith with Jesus. And it was unique to watch them and interact with them. You know, there was definitely about.

I would say 12 people that went up front and responded. And it was a very positive experience overall. You know, they responded well to the message. They responded well to the call of God. And I would say, just by way of assessment, that.

Some of those were never believers, and some of those were people recommitting their life to Christ. But it was definitely a positive response. Hey, thank you, Tom. And Robbie, I have a question for you. Have you been to How many of these types of harvest events have you been to in the Carolinas?

And what were some of your experiences? Just curious if you've been to some probably before.

Okay. Yeah, well we had it's fascinating to me that the first time that they were going to have the Greg Laurie event here in the Winston Salem area and shortly before I actually went to Truth went to work for the Truth Network, Is in In in the day of 9-11. Right. Oh wow. That very day there was a meeting Stu and I were supposed to be at with Greg Laurie.

Um that got canceled as a result. of 9-11. Um, and they then they came, I'm gonna guess it was about Mm-hmm. you know, six or seven years later that they finally did. You know, there were all these people praying, and then again, just to see that many people receive Christ.

in a crowd like that is is just You know, it's mind-shattering. And the impact that you feel like. There's generations and generations and generations of people that are going to be affected by this one event. Um Not just because of what Greg does, but because all the churches get involved and follow up, and these people are not only brought to Christ, they're discipled. And it's beautifully organized and well done.

Of course, I've been to several, and I'm sure you have two, Rusty David Jeremiah similar events. And they have and I've been able to be a counselor at at some of those too, and they have numbers of large numbers of people come to Christ at those as well. And it's really spectacular. Yes, that's encouraging.

Well, if anybody wants to call in, We'd love to hear from you. And if if you think that we should Try and do this again. on the same level or a smaller level or your church would like to see about putting together some concerts and um Gospel messages at the end. We can do this. You know, if the Lord is leading us.

Of course, it it's all possible.

So Young and old, I know that my wife brought two ladies with us who've known the Lord for a long time. And they were really blessed and encouraged. We had somebody down at the end of our row who was going on his Mormon mission next week. And one of the the lady that the one of the ladies uh that my wife brought She was sharing with this young man and everything.

So we tried to maximize it. the best we could. And so I just I've been given a new spark For just carrying out the great commission and And I'm just really encouraged by Just seeing people there like Pastor Steve Pearson was there, and he's at a church called Redemption Hill out in Eagle Mountain. And he shared at the devotional Saturday night. When when the volunteers would gather He gave a great message, and then he gave like a closing thought at the end of the event last night.

And so I think one of the things that this type of event does is it. is it allows us to have our individuality in the body of Christ. but that there are core essentials that we do share Oftentimes and that we can come together for an event like this and see people Um escape from from the clutches of their sin and hell and everything. And Be born again. And so, boy, I think that's just so encouraging.

Yes. The number to call in and share, and boy, would we love to hear from you. 866-366-866-866- three four eight seven eight eight four eight six six Three, four, eight. Seven eight eight four n You know what? What do you feel like, Russ?

You've had a chance, you and Tom, to certainly. interact with a lot of Uh Christians from the East in this area. What do you think our largest misunderstanding of of Mormonism is? Hmm. Tom, do you want to go first?

Well, I mean, that would be hard to say, but I think that it is such a complex difference. Like, I think one of the biggest differences that I can think of is just the words and the definition of words.

So, we can talk more about that. I think I hear music. We can talk more about that after the break. Absolutely, I do. But.

In the meantime, while you're sitting through the break, you could call us. A great time to do that. 866-348-7884.

We would love to hear from you. Your thoughts on the subject. 866-34TRUTH. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Truth Talk Live.

Today we are talking about the amazing event last night, Greg Laurie's Harvest Crusade. There in Utah, we got Russ East, our station manager there in Utah. And Pastor Tom, right? Yep. as well and so You know, I is are you guys, Tom, on one of the churches that that streamed it live as well?

Yes, sir, we were. We streamed it live from Centerville, Utah last night. And so d did the Greg Laurie team kind of get with you as far as the um how to follow up? that that app apparently some of the people that made those decisions you guys get a chance to disciple, right? Yeah, absolutely.

So the harvest team is actually really great, and they have quite the system, and they gave us all the tools we needed to get them in contact. But we were uniquely blessed with just Several of our own leaders there to follow up with everyone who made a decision last night.

So, yeah, I mean, it was a. The the harvest people are great. They really gave us everything we needed.

So Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful.

So, Russ, we got one more segment. What else did you want to make sure you got said today? Sure, sure.

Well, I think Tom was going to even continue on some of these Things, the misconceptions that people might have. And I'll just kind of share a few things that come to my mind. But I would think that I'm meeting with a friend tomorrow. Who's just a great guy, and he's been a long-standing member of the Mormon Church, you know, the church. uh the Latter Latter-day Saints.

And one of the things I'm going to ask is that, how do I? Know that I'm going to be in the presence of Heavenly Father when I die.

Now, isn't that kind of an interesting way to put it. And so I wonder if there's a misconception that maybe a lot of people have about the Mormon people that they're just another Christian denomination. They're just maybe a little bit different. Maybe they're just a little more progressive or liberal, or you could just paint them with or tag them with some stamp that's just you're just not familiar with it.

So you don't want to be so arrogant to say they're not Christian. I mean, good night. I mean, it says the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It can't be that bad, right? But when you pose that question, like I'm going to pose that to my friend tomorrow.

Um I'm going to try to show This young th th this gentleman here, this this man is probably close to forty now. and known him for a long time he just he just told me just the other day, he said, Russ, we should find more unity between us, more unity between us. And I want to show him. That I think I know some of the answers to this question, but I want to help him bring it out in his own mind. There's something called a temple ceremony.

And maybe I'll ask Tom, he'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Would you share with our listeners, Tom? Things about the temple ceremony. that are so diverse from from true Christianity. And just talk about that.

however much you would like to and then I'll I'll fill in as well. But wouldn't that be just sadly the deal breaker, one of the big deal breakers, of course, with the differences here? You know, there's a colleague of mine who's done some doctoral work, and I'm going to cite his assertion about as long as there is an LDS temple standing, it's a testament to the to the fact that Jesus' sa sacrifice was not enough.

So, when I don't, I don't even need to get into the details of what happens in the temple, but if you look at like John chapter 2. When Jesus says, destroy this temple, speaking of his body, and in three days I will raise it. And when that actually happened, what he did is he rendered temple work of any kind obsolete. He centralized worship in the person of himself. It's what made it possible to send the spirit.

So, anytime we think of a temple ceremony, no matter what it is. It is an addition to something that Jesus did. It's exactly what Jesus talked about when he said that nobody puts a new piece of. cloth on an old garment. Because you can't add what Jesus did on the cross.

to any other thing, like no temple sacrifices at Jesus is our temple now.

So anything that happens there, anything is completely and entirely insufficient and there is zero continuity between LDS temple sacrifices or LDS LDS temple rituals and what Jesus did on the cross.

So that's what I will say. Yes, yes. And I'll throw something else out there too. When a person goes to a Mormon church service, They'll pass the elements. They're going to be like a like a leavened bread and little water cups.

And certain people will take that. They call it sacrament. We would call it a communion in many places, you know, evangelical churches and circles. We'd say it's communion. If a person in the Mormon church has Had a bad week, or maybe they had some type of, you know, fallout with their.

I don't know, their fellow man, or they committed some type of sin or something. They met with their bishop, they told him about it. And they they they they said, Okay. You know, I've done this, I've done that.

Well, what will happen, and Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but a bishop will say, well, now, As kind of like penance or as like a punishment to you, you cannot take the sacrament. When you take the sacrament, you are somehow identifying yourself with. the Mormon idea of Jesus. Who's the brother of Lucifer?

Okay, and what does that do for that Mormon person, Tom, who can't take. the communion or the sacrament for like six weeks, is it to just kind of like rub Their nose into the like a like a puppy, you know, into his where he went potty on the floor. You know, can you kind of speak to that a little bit? Because I think it's important for us to understand that a little bit. This is what Mormons are going through, being shamed.

in their congregation in in in a sense. Yeah. And sure, so it is a form of ecclesiastical church discipline. Um and uh I believe the term when I was growing up for that would be a a form of disfellowshipment. And yeah, it would be: you need to get your heart right and your behavior right and in line with the church.

And when the bishop says it's okay. Uh then you can re ref Retain taking the sacrament, like regain your place in the congregation. And something similar happens when you're excommunicated. You know, they ask you not to take the sacrament as well. That's essentially your membership and your priesthood blessings and everything are revoked.

by the LDS church leadership.

So, but no, it is a form of uh Public. Public discipline that is shameful. I mean, I've experienced many LDS people who. Who have every eye on them when the sacrament plates passed in front of them and they can't touch it? Because now everyone in the congregation knows: hey, this person's under some form of discipline.

And actually, when I think of Matthew 11, 28 through 30, Jesus says, come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I'll give you rest. You can take my yoke upon you. Like, he invites everybody. In fact, the book of Revelation, the Lamb says, come. He invites everybody.

So I kind of a A little bit of a hard time with that form of church discipline. It seems like it's withholding.

something that's meant meant to be commemorative of Christ's sacrifice away from people who probably need it in that situation, who maybe have blown it, who maybe do feel guilty. I don't know. It it's it's definitely an odd thing, if you ask me.

So. Yes, exactly. It's sad. It's very sad because it's... It's like a public shaming.

It's like, okay, if there's some issues that, as a Christian, that we need to shed from our lives and we need some more sanctification, then yes, by all means, let's get rid of the sin, let's do that. But in in every situation, does it have to be Kind of broadcast to everyone in that sense, and for the bishop to have that kind of control over people like this, where they can come to the service. you know, but everybody's got, like you say, eyes on each other and you're being shamed like this. And so it's really missing what Jesus did on the cross. And it just misses the idea of what is justification, what is sanctification.

And maybe one more thing that comes to my mind is the Garden of Gethsemane. Would you want to share a little bit about your thoughts on that as to what Mormons teach? Here's a misconception, that Mormons believe the same thing that Christians do when it comes to the cross. and the Garden of Gethsemane. Would you share with our listeners from your understanding of what Mormons teach about When Jesus sweat, as it were, drops of blood.

They would teach that that would be would be part of the Payment for our sin. We're opposed to the message. It's not the entire thing. I mean, it's like the reason that they don't focus so much on the cross. I've heard it said that, you know, they don't worship a murder weapon, right?

Because that's what the cross was. It was what was used. It was the instrument of Christ's death. But growing up, it was always an emphasis on the Garden of Eden. That's where the atonement really took place is ultimately what I was always taught.

Gardener guest enemy, excuse me. Garden of guest enemy.

So yeah, that that's a That's where I was taught that the atonement actually happened. Again, taking the emphasis off the cross, off what Jesus said there. And it was on the cross where Jesus says, It is finished, paid in full.

So, um, you Yeah, that is a distinct difference between evangelical Christianity and Mormon theology. You know, that they. The sufficiency of Christ and his sacrifice is definitely a distinction. Excellent. Thank you.

One last thing maybe we might have time for to talk about. is a creed. I I know in in in Mormon thinking They would say, oh, we have no creeds. We don't like creeds. But don't you and I both remember something called the Thirteen Articles of Faith?

You know, I mean, we had to I had little stickers. We had little stickers. You had to memorize them and things as a kid. But I mean, and it wasn't one of those that says we are not. Punished for Adam's transgression, but for our own personal sins.

Can you elaborate on what in the world are we talking about here? That's a distinction that's really. very foreign to biblical teaching. Sure, 10,000-foot view. The assertion there is that not everybody is guilty because they are born into this world.

And so Adam brought sin into the world in Genesis chapter 3 through disobeying God and eating from the tree that they were commanded not to eat. And so they're saying that we're not punished for that act, but we all sin.

So we are all. Accountable to God.

So Romans 3:23, all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

So, yeah, we are all accountable to God, everybody from birth. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you guys so much. We appreciate it and thank you for listening to True Talk Live.

My death.