Should Christians Still Support Israel?

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Well, hey guys, this is Michael Zwick, and I'm excited to be back in the show today. The question that we've got for you today is this. Should Christians continue to support Israel? And we've got a Dr. Michael Brown who is back on the show again today.

But Dr. Brown, we've got a very special guest in the studio. Guess who it is? Stu Epperson Jr. Hey, Doc, I tell you right now, that gift of prophecy is working its way out there.

Yeah, man.

So. I still remember being in the studio the very first Saturday I did a broadcast, which I think was March. of 2008 And I was waiting for Stu to be there and run me through everything and my first time in the studio. And there was a note: Doc, you're going to do great. We believe in you.

And the rest is history. And the rest is history. Oh, yeah. The baptism by fire. Baptism by fire.

Well, Dr. Brown, we did the last show on Israel. And as we talked about to me, the Bible seems to be pretty clear that Christians should support Israel. But when we put the show online, We even kind of prepared them and we said, hey, there are some people who come up with some crazy stuff when they come against Israel, but there were still some people who made some comments that were very interesting. And people are welcome to share what they want to share.

I usually don't delete the comments.

So I want you to respond to some of these comments that people made from the last show, Dr. Brown. Can you do that? Absolutely, withdrawal.

Okay, here's the first one. There is, and this is from Damon's World 281. There is no mention of a star of David in the Bible star. The star of their flag is demonic. If studied the Bible, you would know this Christ, warn my people will perish for lack of knowledge.

And he quotes Acts 7:43, yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of your God Remphon, figures which ye made to worship them, and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. Dr. Brown, how do you respond to that one? First thing, for those that don't know my academic background, my doctorate is in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University.

So the ancient languages of the Old Testament, the ancient culture of the Old Testament, that's what I was trained in academically. I can assure you That there is no ancient evidence of something that looks like a star of David associated with the god Remphom. back in the days of Amos where the prophecy comes from.

So the idea that Acts 7 and the star of this false god Is the Star of David is a myth. That's the first thing. and you can search the actual sources forget internet myths but the actual sources that's a myth that's number one Number two. And an image, a square, a triangle, a circle is just that. There's nothing inherently good or bad about it.

For example, when I was in India the first time, I was shocked to see Nazism, anti-Semitism everywhere, swastikas. Then I found out that the Nazis took the swastika from India. It was just a good luck symbol in India, the swastika. They made it into something associated with the Nazis that made it evil. The star of David has been used by different groups over the centuries.

It's been used as identification of the people of Israel. It's been used by Satanists. It's just a symbol in and of itself. How do we know it? We know it as the Star of David, and it's on the Israeli flag.

And it's been chosen for certain purposes. That the symbol in itself is neutral, neither good nor bad. Just like the stripes on an American flag or the stars, they're neither good nor bad. I'm sure you find demonic use of stars, demonic use of stripes. What does that prove?

The devil every uses everything, God uses everything. Nothing to the idea that this goes back to the ancient pagan worship and was a star that is condemned in the Bible. Nothing to that rumor. Wow, we need to have Candace Owens on to debate Dr. Brown because it would be a great conversation.

And Dr. Brown, that's one thing to just to give you a little shout out, a little praise that you've done so well over the years talking to those who oppose you like this last question in a gracious way. You didn't yell anyone down. You didn't make an ad hominem attack. Yet there's so much confusion about Israel, the propaganda machine is working overtime.

People that are telling the truth. About what's happening in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are being getting life threats now, sadly. I've talked to some people who have been entrenched there. That when they report that they're shooting, randomly bombing all these Palestinians, they're entrenched. They're like, I haven't seen one shot, I haven't seen any of that.

And so there's a whole lot of propaganda, but it's important to discuss this civilly. And if you have a question for Dr. Brown, About anything going back in antiquity with Israel, with prophecy, with what's happening now. Great number to call 86634 TRUTH 866348. 7884.

For years he sat in this hot seat doing his show, The Line of Fire. And now we're putting him in the line of fire. He can't get away from it, right, Doc? Yeah. Here you go, man.

You know, here's the other thing we have to remember. There's so much misunderstanding. You know, my wife Nancy was talking to me about this yesterday. You know, I'll post memes, just something comes to my heart, and it's just a few words, and it's just a meme, right? It's it's half a sentence.

Maybe it's an encouraging word from scripture. Maybe it's something in prayer I felt, or maybe it's...

Someone related to Israel and it's provocative. And she was saying, look, you gotta make sure there's substance because otherwise all you're doing is creating more friction. And it's an important point that When we talk about this, that we say out of the gate. that the death of a Palestinian baby is just as grievous in God's sight as the death of an Israeli baby. And that Jesus died for Jew and Muslim and Arab and atheist, all the same.

So it's not a matter of us saying ethnic superiority. Or the suffering of one people matters, and the suffering of another people doesn't matter, but it is about truth. And that's the thing, having having been mapping anti-Semitism now for I don't know, thirty-five years or so. It's so sad to see things being repeated. Brought up again and again and again as if true.

And you just have to trust that God will cause truth to triumph. Otherwise, you feel like you're taking a cup out of an ocean because there's so much craziness out there. Wow, that's such a good word. Dr. Brown, we may have folks that want to call in with a question.

If you have a question about Israel, about politics, some of this area, about the great prophecies of the Bible related to Israel, God has a special people, He has a special plan, He has a special place. The holy city is a part of the end times. Maybe you disagree. 866-34-TRUTH. This is my last minute with you, Doc, and I know there's callers, but let me ask you a quick question, a very serious question on Daniel chapter 11.

I've been deep diving to Daniel, taking a bunch of people in our men's Bible study, Wednesday in the Word, and our women's in the Word. I've got to send out leader notes for Daniel 11. It's 45 verses. And I start reading it, Doc, and I've been listening, I've probably listened to 20 sermons on it. Give me some guidance on Daniel 11.

You've got all these kings from Persia, kings from the south, from the north. You've got maybe Alexander the Great. You've got a picture of the Antichrist. What's the best way to look at it? Give me a quick pedagogy on Daniel 11.

and uh what's going on there and how to teach it.

So you're looking at ancient prophecy that much of it was fulfilled already. For example, when the Bible speaks of the abomination of desolation, there was something that happened in the time of the Maccabees. 160 something times be uh years before the time of Jesus. There was something that happened with the destruction of the temple in seventy AD. And there'll be something that happens at the end of the age.

So what you want to do is see that which was historical, that's which took place. with Alexander and Greek Empire and things like that. And then you want to see, okay, who is the key evil leader? This becomes a prototype. of the Antichrist And just there was war on God's people back then.

There's war on God's people at the end of the age.

So you want to make it historical. but then practical and edifying because it's not just in the Bible for information's sake. It's there so we can learn and be prepared for the future. Yeah. Look at the history, but now practical application and how is it in the words of Yogi Berra, like deja vu all over again, where it seems the patterns seem to repeat and then pull out a key verse.

About the The saints being refined and tested, but the good that comes out of it. And Judas Maccabee stood up. There is a battle. They stood up for what was right, and we have Hanukkah from that. Maybe when we come back, you can ask him where we got Hanukkah, because that's a very, I was always jealous of my Jewish friends growing up because they got multiple gifts, multiple days.

I only got Christmas Day. Little gifts. Little gifts. Yes, sir. That Christmas gift.

Exactly. Tell us about that. We got to take a break, Michael. We'll be right back. 866-34-TRUTH.

We'll be right back with Dr. Michael Brown. Truth Talk Live You're listening to the Truth Network and TruthNetwork.com. All right, this is Michael Zwick. We've got Dr.

Michael Brown back in the house today. And we are discussing Israel. We've got a Bucksman out of Dayton, Ohio. And Buxman, you've got a question for Dr. Michael Brown.

What is it? I do. Hey, doctor Brown, it's an honor to speak with you, sir. I'm a bit of a backyard scholar. I do not have the letters behind my name.

Like you have, dear one. But I do study the word perti extensively. I'm very biblically literate. I'm a history lover. I have been since I was in school.

I'm now 56 years old. Um so I love world history.

So I would like to ask you just one question first. If Israel is God's chosen people, Then aren't everybody else in the world the unchosen people, sir? Thanks for the question. I'm so glad for all the study that you do. Uh Plenty of people that do study without college and grad school do even better that way.

So all the more. Charlie Kirk in me, Dr. Brown, the Charlie Kirkidd. Yeah, go ahead. Got it.

Got it. Yeah, absolutely.

So. No, we have to understand chosen had to do with a mission. In other words, God needed the people through whom He could bring the Messiah into the world. and who would share that news with the world And when he found Abraham, a man that trusted him and loved him, Then he determined to work through Abraham's seed.

So he says in Deuteronomy 7 to the children of Israel. God didn't choose you because you're better than anybody because you're not. In fact, in Ezekiel 2, God tells the prophet, if I sent you to other people, they would listen. But my own people are stiff-necked. They won't listen.

So it was simply chosen for a mission and a purpose. And God keeps his word. Amos 3, God says, You only have I known, meaning chosen out of all the families of the earth. Therefore, I will punish you for your iniquities.

So being chosen has been very costly. It's caused us to fall under divine judgment because to whom much is given, much is required. But God Jews are the chosen people. The Jewish people. Non-Christians, Dr.

Brown. Yeah, Jewish people are the chosen. And so that makes us the unchosen. Anybody who's Gentile and not Jewish doesn't live in Israel. or or attribute ourselves or self identify as Jew, Because God made it very clear.

that my people will be the Hebrews, the Jews. Not the Christian.

So if if Jews in today, 2025, are his chosen people, then that makes us unchosen. as the believers in Jesus Christ his Messiah. The Messiah. Yeah, well, the fact is we're chosen in Jesus. In other words, There there is a natural choosing for a mission.

where God chose the people of Israel, many of whom have been disobedient through history and to this day. And there is a choosing for salvation, which is in Christ, in the Messiah.

So Jew and Gentile is chosen and elected. Hey, Boxman, Boxman, can you let him finish, please? Yeah, you got a New Testament. plainly says That the elect in Messiah, the elect in Christ, chosen before the foundation of the world, that's Jew and Gentile who believe in Jesus.

Okay, so that's the chosen people, is those who choose Yeshua as Messiah. Either Jew and Gentile. That's the chosen people, correct? Is that how I'm hearing that, Dr. Brown?

So it's not either or. The Jewish people have been chosen for a mission as far as salvation. Those who are in Jesus the Messiah, who put their trust in him, are the chosen people in terms of eternal salvation.

Okay, so what does that make the the non-Jesus believing Jew today in twenty twenty five, sir? Chosen but lost. Chosen for mission, but lost without Jesus. Gotcha.

So the best way to bless Israel in 2025 is to get them Yeshua the Messiah, correct? That's the highest way we can bless is by bringing the gospel, 100%. Got it. So I'm in support of that. Like One for Israel and other Messianic Jewish organizations, like One for Israel.

Those folks are Messianic Jews. who have been raised Jewish, been raised in the Old Covenant, but then they find Yeshua mainly in Isaiah fifty three. I've actually got a small group here in Cincinnati, Ohio, close to where I live, doctor Brown. They're called Rock of Israel. And they are awesome people, but they are persecuted by the Jewish folks in.

Cincinnati. They get hammered b all the time. By Jews that say this is a man-made religion. You are following a false messiah. And you should repent.

What say you on that, doctor Brown? Yeah, it's to be expected that when you go against your family tradition and religion. You're going to be rejected.

So, of course, the first Jewish followers of Jesus were rejected. by their their compatriots. We see it in the Gospels. We see it in the book of Acts. A Jewish people who don't believe in Jesus persecuting those who do.

To this moment, that's my situation. I'm blacklisted going into Israel. We have to make special arrangements to get me in because of religious leadership in the country that doesn't like the gospel outreach that we do. At the same time, You have to understand that through church history, many professing Christians have persecuted Jews. even forced Jews to be baptized or die.

So Most Jews really don't know who Jesus is. They only know him through the lens of Christian tradition, and sometimes it's been through Christian persecution.

So that's why it's so important. to show people who Yeshua really is. The bottom line is a Jew or a Gentile who rejects Jesus Yeshua as Messiah is equally lost. That's the bottom line. And the the most important thing.

praying for the Jewish people and bringing the good news of the Messiah. That should be top of our list. And that's the top of my own mission as the Jewish follower of Jesus as well. Yeah, and Bucksman, Bucksman, I wanted to say that they're lost, and they're very. Ungod-fearing.

So I cannot support the Jews in the state that they're in now unless they come to Messiah.

So I'm not for, and I'll say this live on the air. I'm not for blanketly supporting Israel. They are in sin, they're rejecting Jesus. And that's very blatant. You can see it through their even through their government with The very evil LGBTQ policy that they have.

They're more LGBTQ, Dr. Brown. than uh than San Francisco. And I can't see God Almighty blessing that.

So why should his children, the chosen, the ones who have received Yeshua as the Messiah, both Jew and Gentile, as you said, why should we bless them, sir, with our money, our time, our effort and our prayers? But it's it's called mercy. That's why it's Paul's very explicit on that in Romans 11. You receive mercy through them. You return mercy.

It's because we have compassion for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And I guess you haven't met a lot of devoted religious Jews. Whose daily time of study and prayer put most Christians to shame.

So there are many who are God-fearing. Tel Aviv absolutely has been rated the most gay-friendly city in the world. I grieve over that. But look, it's just like you love America, you pray for America, you support America, but there's a lot of junk in America. I prayed for America I supported America during the Biden Presidency and now during the Trump Presidency.

But the things that I've been very distressed about, where America we've aborted over sixty million babies. We export porn around the world. Number one cause of death for people eighteen to forty four in America is fentanyl overdose. Violent crime out of control in so many places, and yet I love my country. I pray for my country, I try to help and support my country.

The same with Israel: it's mercy, it's not deserved. And the same way God's had mercy on us, we have it on others. But I appreciate the conversation. Yeah, and I wanted to bring it. And I wanted to tell you something else.

On the last show, and I don't know if you heard this, we actually talked about how we do not support dual covenant theology. Did you want to touch on that, Dr. Brown?

Oh yeah, just to be one hundred percent clear, Whenever I say that we're called to bless Israel, this does not mean support everything Israel does. People think That I'm espousing dual covenant theology, which both the caller and I completely reject. Dual covenant theology says that Jews have their own way to God and don't need Jesus. Dual covenant theology says that if a Jew observes the Torah, That's sufficient. And they have their own way to God through the Sinai covenant.

If that was the case, if anyone could be saved through the Sinai covenant and through obedience to the Torah, then Yeshua died for nothing. If anyone can be saved by the law, Galatians 2. Then he died for nothing. We do not frustrate the grace of God. If righteousness could have come through the law, he died for nothing.

Yeah, and Bucksman, I want to thank you for the call. I can tell you did your homework. We will be right back. We've got a Jamal who's got a question, but Dr. Brown, we want your calls: 866-34TRUT.

You're listening to The Truth Network and TruthNetwork.com.

Well, hey guys, we are back with Dr. Michael Brown. Should Christians Support Israel? We've got a Jamal out of Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Jamal, what is your question for Dr.

Brown?

Um I would like to get to my question. After my statement First, and just want to say hi to Dr. Michael Brown. I don't think we've ever spoken before. No, I've called you your show before, so this is.

It's a long reacquaintance. Um or a long uh reconnection. And of course, how do you Michael Zwick and Stu Efferson over there. My statement before I get to my question, and I'll make this real fast. Buxman has called in two troops that were before very respectable guy and I've um Enjoy listening to him before.

I want to offer a little respectful Book. Yeah. Um Jesus himself was Jewish. And to my uh understanding, Jewish folks wrote uh wrote the Bible, wrote in the Bible. Um We are Probably the most persecuted people of all time.

And although they have made some mistakes and will continue to make some mistakes, They are people just like everybody else. Dr. Michael Michael Brand has often mentioned how we've made mistakes here in America.

So I'm not sure of the scripture that applies to this, but we have all fallen short. of God's grace. And we all need his forgiveness. We all need um to support one another.

So Why I cannot agree with everything Israel says and does. Whether they're chosen or not, they're still God's creation. They're made of the image of God, and I will support them. Um as long as I'm alive, as long as they're alive. And I hope they do get saved and come under uh Christ's um Leadership.

So with that being said, my question is, And I've asked another theologian, but I want to ask you, Dr. Michael Brown. Is the Are the Jewish people the original owners of Israel? The original owners Well first uh great talking to Jamal. And thanks for your opening comment.

It does remind me of the fact that we love and support our family. Even when family members do wrong things and make mistakes, we're there for them. Because that's what love is about. That's what honor is about.

So it's the same with Israel and the Jewish people. And as you mentioned, When it comes to persecution, right, worldwide through history, no single group. has been persecuted, hated, rejected, beligned, mistreated, over the centuries in multiple countries more than the Jews.

So Oh. As As for the original owners of the land, We know before the people of Israel were given the land by God, there were seven nations living there, the Canaanites and others. But God drove them out because of their wickedness. And then God gave the land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. as an e eternal inheritance, meaning as long as this earth stands.

So yes, God did drive us because of disobedience, But he brought us back because of mercy.

So the land has been deeded to the people of Israel as long as this world stands They were the only ones for whom it was their homeland. the national capital being Jerusalem. every year at Passover Jews say next year in Jerusalem It has been the place to which Jews pray daily to be restored and regathered.

So absolutely, the land was gived to Israel by God.

Okay, thank you very much for that. And just a quick follow-up question, I'll take this off air until another caller get to get in.

So, who drove out the Canaanites? And again, I'll take this question off air, and God bless you all. Take care. Thank you for the call, Jamal. Go ahead.

Yeah, so if you look in Genesis the fifteenth chapter. God tells Abram, before his name is Abraham. that his seed will will dwell in a foreign land. And it's going to be basically a 400-year process. And they're going to be enslaved for a time in that land until the iniquity of the Amorite is full, the Amorite being a.

a general way of speaking of the inhabitants of Canaan.

So God drove them out. Leviticus 18. Because of their wickedness. Deuteronomy 7 He says, I'm not giving you the land because of your goodness, but I'm driving out these others because of their wickedness. But God waited that long and Israel had to even suffer in Egypt in slavery.

until the iniquity of the amorites reached a certain point where god could say okay justice has to come So now the children of Israel were used in this one-time act to drive them out and to destroy them. It was divine judgment on those who had previously lived in the land. Yeah, and Dr. Brown, one of the main verses that I've seen to support replacement theology would be Galatians 3:23, and it says, And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. How would you respond to that?

Yeah, so Galatians 329 and 328 says. that in him the is neither junior gentile, slave nor free, male nor female.

So first let's think about that verse. Do we still have males and females in the church? Do we still have men's rooms and ladies' rooms? Do we still have men's meetings and women's meetings? Yes, for sure.

So males and females still exist. In Paul's day, there were people who were slaves, people who were free, still Jew and Gentile, but in Jesus were equal.

So the distinction still exists. But we're equal. In that there's no caste system, no class system. Jew and Gentile in Jesus are equal, just like male and female in Jesus are equal. As for 329, There is a physical seed of Abraham and there is a spiritual seed.

The physical seed of Abraham, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and those who joined themselves to the people of Israel by conversion through the centuries. And there is the spiritual seed, which is all those who believe. Jew and Gentile in Jesus.

So when God told Abraham, Your descendants will be like the sands of the sea and like the stars of the sky.

Some use that as an analogy to say there's the earthly reality. That's the physical people of Israel, the physical seed in the land. And the Old Testament constantly talks about the physical seed. And then there is this spiritual seed, which is all those who are in Jesus. Those are like the stars of the sky.

Absolutely. And Stu Epperson earlier mentioned Candace Owens.

So I've got, I actually took a picture of this this morning. It was posted by David Harris Jr. It says, okay, now Candace Owens directly accuses the Trump administration of killing Charlie Kirk. Her proof is the fact that Trump gave Charlie Kirk a holiday. And this is a direct quote from her: As soon as they give you a boulevard and a holiday, they definitely killed you.

Okay, there's no question they killed you. That's what they do. That's their signature thing. That's what they do. It's the Fed's signature.

That's how they sign off after they murder you. And David Harris ended up saying, he said, I don't know about you, friends, but I'm praying for Candace. And Mike, I'm praying for Candace as well. But I see, I don't know if you see this as well, but I see once people, once especially Christians, when they start to go against Israel, a lot of times this kind of thing happens. Have you seen that?

Yeah, well what what is let's look at it like this. I don't know Candace at all. I pray for God's best for her. There's something very positive about Outlandish. Namely, that it makes everything else questionable.

You know what I'm saying? Right. If you were believing something else she was saying and you see this, you think, okay, something's clearly wrong here. But yeah, it could either be that as you're suggesting That when you go against Israel the way she is, and by the way, you can differ with the Netanyahu government. You can say, I think there was a better way to handle the war in Gaza.

You can bring legitimate criticism about Israel. That doesn't make you a Jew hater. That doesn't make you an anti-Semite. You can say, you know, my Jewish boss was nasty.

Okay, it doesn't make it anti-Semite, unless you say all Jews are nasty, right? But Well it could be As you say, when you come against Israel the way Candace did, that there's judgment with it. You reap what you sow. The other thing, which is more of a natural explanation, is Once you start going the way of believing the crazy anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, If one thing leads to another. And it's just an inevitable process.

If you believe one lie, you're going to believe another lie. At a certain point, they become so extreme. that if you're a thinking person you realize okay something is off here The tragedy with anti-Semitism, it is so demonic. that people can believe the craziest things. You mentioned my book, Our Hands Are Stand with Blog.

I document some of the crazy lies. There's something called the Wandering Jew.

So we know that Jews have been persecuted and driven out of country after country. Catholic countries because they wouldn't be baptized and convert, and things like that, driven out of Islamic countries at different times. But So you have the idea of a wandering Jew.

Well, there's this actual myth. that one of the Jewish people who was there at the crucifixion and and rejected Jesus was consigned to to never die. And he goes from city to city as a wandering Jew through the ages.

So he's almost 2,000 years old. And the crazy thing is, people have sighted him. Oh, yeah, I found the wandering Jew here throughout history. You think nobody would believe this, but people do. And and the Candace Owen things, at least again, I pray for her.

At least We're seeing the craziness, the absurdity of the things that you're saying. Hopefully people will put two and two together. Absolutely. And there are plenty of verses that do support Christians supporting Israel. I'm going to look at one right now.

Romans 11:1 through 2. It says, The Apostle Paul asked directly, Did God reject his people? He immediately answers, by no means. Citing himself as an example, he emphasizes that God has not cast away his people whom he foreknew. Romans 11:25 through 29, Paul explains that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Following this, all Israel will be saved. He concludes by stating that God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. What do you do with that? Yeah, there's nothing stronger in the entire New Testament than the culmination of Paul's argument in Romans. Yeah.

And where he starts in the ninth chapter. And as he mentions at the beginning of Romans 11, that there's a remnant saved by grace, and that's in every age. He then says, beginning in verse 11 of Romans 11, that there's going to be a full turning, a fullness. There's only a remnant now. but there's going to be a fullness.

And this fullness, when there's a national turning of the Jewish people, it's going to be like life from the dead. And when he comes to the end of his discussion in Romans 11 and says in verse 28, as far as the gospel is concerned, They're enemies for your sake. In other words, The Jewish people who have rejected the gospel, they're enemies of the gospel, but it's for your sake, and that now the gospel has gone to the whole world. It's gone to the Gentiles. He said, but as far as election is concerned, They're loved because of the fathers for the gifts.

and calling of God, as you said, are irrevocable. This is good news. When God gives a promise, He keeps it. This should be good news for every Christian. Have you ever failed?

Have you ever messed up? Have you ever fallen short? Has the devil been there in your ear saying it's too late? God will never accept you. God will never forgive you.

Look. at Israel. Look at his patience, look at his kindness, look at how many times he forgave. And when he makes a promise, he keeps it. That's why the Jewish people still exist.

That's why we're back in the land, because he keeps his promises. Absolutely. And we will be back for our last segment with Dr. Brown right after this. There has been talk about a revival that has been coming to this country.

And I remember Mike wrote a book a few years ago, Revival or We Die.

So we'll be right back with that. And 86634 Truth, 86634 Truth. We'll be right back. Truth Talk Live. You're listening to the Truth Network and TruthNetwork.com.

All right, guys, we are back for our last segment, and we have talked about Israel. We 100% believe that we need to support Israel. And if you disagree with us, that's okay. But, Dr. Brown, I don't know when I'm going to be able to get you back on the show.

We've got a bunch of stuff coming up, and I'm sure you do as well. But I feel like I would be remiss if I did not mention your book, Revival or We Die. A Great Awakening is Our Only Hope. And you wrote it back in 2021. And I feel like it may have been prophetic because I'm looking at the news today and it's CBN: 7,000 students encounter Jesus in powerful ways at Unite Us.

Another one, Premier Christian. Come on, church, let's prepare for harvest. Revival is coming. And then Ann Calver, who wrote the book, said, We've only seen the start of what God is going to do. CBN, a Gen Z awakening reaches a frat house at East Carolina right here in North Carolina.

And Dr. Brown, I don't know if you saw this coming or not. Uh well absolutely.

So many have been praying for so many years. for outpouring, especially youth outpouring. And I I was at a service. It was about eight days before the Asbury revival broke out. We had a powerful meeting at a church in Tampa, Florida at the end of a month of prayer and fasting.

And I called all the young people on the stage. There are a ton of them in the service. And I said to them, you are going to see a youth awakening. You are going to see a youth revival. And I got on the air when I was on on Truth.

And not in that same seat where you're sitting, but the same network. It was right about one week before Asbury, And I said as I've been traveling the country, I said I've been seeing this now for some months. I said, it's clear to me we are at the very beginning of a fresh outpouring of the Spirit. I said it's at the earliest stages. It's the beginning of the wave, but it's here.

It has begun. And A week after that. Things exploded at Asbury. And then the whole nation seemed to be talking about revival.

So something has been going on. You know, I had the privilege of serving as a leader in the Brownsborough Revival. I was there from 96 to 2000. We saw people come from over 150 nations. More than 300,000 different people responded to the altar calls.

People touched in that revival have been serving as missionaries in different parts of the world for over 25 years now. But that was not a finality. That w that was a foretaste. And what I've sensed in my spirit for years now, and others have felt the same way. It was that it's not just going to be in one place.

It's going to be in many, many, many places. And it's a response to hunger and thirst and crying out. And God has heard your prayers. God has seen your tears.

So many that are listening, you've wept at night, you've cried. Pastors, you've prayed. It's frustrating. You feel like you're hitting a wall. God has not been deaf and things are absolutely accelerating, intensifying.

They accelerated on college campuses. After Asbury, been getting hotter and hotter.

Now with the tragic assassination of Charlie Kirk, things have gone to yet another level.

So there's a book I wrote called Seize the Moment. And we put it out early last year, followed by turn the tide, knowing that something was here. And we had to learn how to steward it. When God moves, what do we do? How do we welcome the Holy Spirit without getting into fanaticism and extremism?

How do we keep the fire burning, not just for a day or a month, but for years to come? And then how do we go from there to changing the society?

So this is a sacred moment. This is a season that many have been praying for, fasting for, crying out for. It's something that many nations have never seen. even though they've had the gospel for centuries. And it's a beginning.

Plenty of churches in America are in a backslidden, compromised state. Plenty of believers have gotten lukewarm and cold. The needs are massive. Nothing but a great awakening will do. The need for repentance is greater than we even realize.

At the same time, something very wonderful. very supernatural is is happening. The good news is, Mike, it's hard to keep up with it. It's hard to keep up with all the reports.

So we must. Seize the moment. It remains true. Revival or we die, but something major is happening.

Something major is happening, and I remember when I watched about the Brownsville revival, there was a guy named Steve Hill. Do you remember him? Oh, dear buddy with the Lord now, the evangelist Steve Hill. Yes. Yeah, one of the things that he would always preach and pound would be repentance.

And so it's good that we're excited. It's good that we're worshiping, but we cannot leave out repentance. Is that right? Repentance prepares the way for the coming of the Lord. Think of it like this.

You have a guest room in your house, but you never use it.

So everybody throws their extra stuff in there and it's piled from floor to ceiling. Then you find out a relative of yours is coming into town tomorrow and is expecting to stay with you because they know you have a guest room. It's like, wait a second, we got to clear this thing out. Everybody, grab your stuff and clean and. Vacuum and wash it.

Okay, that's what repentance is. It's clearing the way. It's getting rid of all the rubble. A holy God will not come and dwell in an unholy place.

So that's why if God's working in our lives and we're in compromise, he'll convict us. In his love, he's saying, turn away from that. It's destructive. It's ugly. It's harmful.

So repentance prepares the way for the coming of the Lord. And different revival leaders have said through the centuries. That the depth of revival is determined by the spirit of repentance that is obtained.

So that's why many people don't like revival. It's not just blessing. It's not just anointing. It's not just salvation, healing. It's God himself coming.

And when he comes, he brings conviction. And now we realize God's not pleased with this area of my life. God's not pleased with the way I do business. God's not pleased with the way I treat my spouse or my kids. God's not pleased with the lukewarm condition, my addiction to sports and entertainment in the flesh and so on.

And do we want God? Or do we want those things?

So revival comes, it shakes things up. That's why many will oppose it. but we cannot live. without a visitation from God. It's not hype.

It's not emotion. Revival in its essence is a season of divine, unusual divine visitation. It's the only hope for America right now. Absolutely. And what what's the book that you wrote the two books you wrote last year?

Uh so seize the moment. which is 25 principles to fuel the fire of revival. and then turn the tide. How to take the fire of revival and bring it to change the world around us. Seize the moment.

Turn the tide. Seize the moment and turn the tide. I love it. And Dr. Brown, I'm Pentecostal.

And so one of the things that I saw a couple of years ago was there was a lady who came to our church and I was just praying at the front. And she, you know, all of a sudden she came up to me and she said, she said, Mike, she said, when you were praying, I saw Jesus put a gift inside of your chest. And I'm Pentecostal, but even that was a little bit of a stretch for me. But she took me outside and she said, Mike, my back has been hurting for 18 to 20 years. And she said, I'm not leaving until you pray for my back and my back is healed.

And so I'm sitting there for a while thinking, we're going to be here for a while, right? Because I've never walked in the healing movement before, but I start praying for her back. And as I start praying for her back, she starts, finally, she starts screaming, Hallelujah, my back is healed. And then after that, I just go out and pray for people. And by the way, Jesus is the healer.

I'm not healing anybody. Jesus is the healer, but he uses us. As a vessel in that healing. And so, yes, we don't want revival just to be emotionalism. It's not just about these things.

But what I've seen, when there is revival, there is some emotionalism, there is some excitement. And yes, there is deliverance. And I have seen a lot of healing as well. How about you? Yeah, what you expect when God is there, that he's going to change lives.

And when he changes lives, there's going to be reaction when you're under conviction, you might be weeping. When you're set free from a 20-year addiction, you might be jumping for joy. When you've just been healed, you might be shouting. Of course, those things will happen. Those are just natural responses to the presence of God.

The layman who was healed in Acts 3, he goes into the temple leaping for joy. When Jesus appears to John in Revelation 1, he falls down like a dead person. The key thing is not the falling, not the shaking, not the shouting. but the encounter with God. He changes us.

where we're not who we used to be. And the greatest evidence. of a move of God is change lives. and lasting change lives. And that's what we rejoiced in Brownville.

More than anything, it wasn't shaking, falling that got us excited. It was hearing the testimonies of people whose lives were changed, especially the skeptics, the mockers, the critics. the the ones that didn't even believe in God and somehow ended up in a service and encountered Jesus, and by the end of the night they were weeping for joy. And that fruit is gonna last forever and ever and ever. Revivalism.

Trying to get people psyched up. just trying to have emotional meetings, that is counterproductive. encountering God with emotional responses. That's something that will last. It is.

And I heard a story about the Brownsville revival. There were a couple of girls who went down to Pensacola, Florida, and they asked the cab driver. He said, We want to know where the action is. And he literally They were Playboy Bunnies. They were Playboy Bunnies.

One of my friends knew one of them for years and years. Playboy Bunnies who came down for a photo shoot on the beach. True story. I know people who know them personally. Came down for a photo shoot on the beach.

Hurricane-like weather canceled the photo shoot. At night, they asked the taxi driver 100% right, where's the action in Pensacola? He brought him to the Brownsborough Revival, dropped them off there. They got radically saved. They were repenting so deeply.

Afterwards, the pastor went up to them to find out what's going on. And they said, We haven't lived the best lives. One of them said, I feel like God's shaking the hell out of me. One of the sisters in the church befriended them. At least one of them moved back and became a rock-solid disciple.

I believe they both did, but one of my friends knew them for years. That's what Jesus does. Amen. And so if people want to follow you or watch you or see what you're doing, how would they check you out, Dr. Brown?

Best place to go is thelineoffire.org. theline of fire.org. Click subscribe. We'll get you our monthly frontline newsletter, but we'll put you on our welcome tour.

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Well, Dr. Brown, I want to thank you for coming on the show today. It was a joy. And I tell you what, you make an interview easy. Oh, well, you asked the right questions.

Thank you, Mike. All right. Thank you, brother. I'll be on tomorrow at If Not For God. Uh