Hello, this is Alastair Begg from Truth for Life. Recently I sat down with Jonathan Carswell from Ten of Those Publishing. We talked about the origins of my illustration of the man on the middle cross. which is now available as a booklet that could be shared widely. I hope you enjoy listening.
And here's Jonathan. Hi, my name is Jonathan Carswell from tenoldos.com, and I'm here with Alistair Begg, Bible teacher for Truth for Life and pastor. Thank you for joining us. Alistair, if anyone's been on the internet for the last few years, they've probably seen the clip of. The man on the middle cross, that illustration that you you told.
Um Would you give us a little bit of a background of that? Because It's been seen by millions of people. Was it in your notes? Did you throw it in later? And did you think it was gonna be a No, no, no, not at all.
I was the I was, if truth really be told, I found myself increasingly frustrated as I was trying to get across that essential truth. And no, I didn't have it in my notes, and I had thought it before. Um and uh I just reached for it in in a sense out of desperation, never imagining that it would actually be the the turning key for the other thirty five minutes that I had tried to explain the Bible. And we're going to talk in a moment about it becoming a small evangelistic book, a book that could be given to those who don't yet know that they can come. But would you just explain a little bit of your thought process as you go into the pulpit Something that I've noticed is You know, you're bringing the gospel through all the time.
Obviously, a lot of your audience will be. Trusting in Jesus. Right. But you always need to be aware that there are those that aren't. And without ever missing that, you use that opportunity.
So you're going into the pulpit prepared to do that or is it just Walk us through your thought process.
Well When I go into the pulpit, I'm of course trying to be, say what it says in the text. And And so whatever the main thrust of it, hopefully I don't cloud the issue. I think there's two things. One, in the back of my mind all the time, I'm thinking about the person that doesn't believe or doesn't get it. Like if I was talking to a group of teenage boys, The one that was looking out the window is the one that I would be trying to draw back into the room.
And that is then what causes me to.
Sometimes say, you know, you may be sitting here and just thinking, I don't understand a single word of what you've just said. That brings that person in. If you start from the other position of assuming that because you are now so clear, everybody gets it. But no, I think. I don't know what it is about me, but just the fact that the Bible is a book about Jesus.
And uh We can know God in Jesus as the Bible is explained, it seems to me that there ought to be. I think it's actually Packer who says, you know, if you Just teach the Bible. If you just expound the scriptures, you will discover that That you're being evangelistic, whether you try to do it or not, in the sense that you're setting forward Christ and also saying to people, Um you know, you can come to know him and by the way he knows you. Yeah.
So, in the book, you retell three stories that are found in the Gospels.
So, there's the woman at the well, the paralyzed man, and then the thief on the cross. Let's take the woman at the well, because that is an amazing story, a great encounter. Talk us through your thought process as you've read that story, you've studied it, and how you then share it with others.
Well, you know, one time I think I tried to do that. Shouldn't probably have done it, but I tried to do it. as the woman in the first person.
Okay.
So I said, you know, I come. I come to the well in the middle of the day. I'm usually here by myself because of circumstances in my life I'm not really well thought of. And uh I I I went into it in that way. Um Because it is a fascinating encounter.
That uh She Is bemused initially by the fact that the stranger speaks to her. And uh That as the conversation progresses She moves from that you a man would speak to me. To, I can see that you're a prophet sent from God, so the ball is advancing up the field. And I think there's a way to teach that that misses the nuances of that, that fails to really pay attention to the. The immediacy of what is taking place, that the idea.
Of Jesus is purposefully engaging with this lady. In one sense, it's happenstance. They're at a well, she comes. Um of her own free will. constrained by these other elements.
And Jesus doesn't say to her initially, Anything other, you know, then could I could I have a drink of water? Yeah, could I have a drink of water? But that's enough for her. Yeah.
What? You don't how why? I could give you water. You'd never thirst again. She says, Well, Are you saying you're greater than our father Jacob?
He built this well and Furthermore, w w how'd you get it up out there? Yeah.
It's great. I mean, the irony in John's Gospel is fantastic. and is possible to teach it in a way that misses The irony that is there. It's an interesting sort of development, as you say. You know, she she obviously has some Background or knowledge, but she's also lived a life that means she has to come to the well at midday.
And there's also that moment where Jesus begins to probe a little bit. In a subtle way, you know, go get your husband. She's she's let her guard down a little bit. But it she's not dropped it all the way either. Why is it?
When our lives are so messy, and everyone's lives are so messy. that we're so hesitant to admit and confess.
Well, I think in her case, probably, because I've often wondered. Uh you know, when you read the text, You can't tell the tone of voice. I mean, you don't know whether she said in a defined way, I have no husband, or whether she said, You know, I'm assuming the latter. That um so shame. Shame, yeah.
A sense of shame in contexts that draw it out that may never happen in another context. I mean, this is a stranger talking to her. Why why does she have to answer questions like that? But it's not just a stranger that's talking to her. And the way in which it unfolds And when I started out trying to understand that section in John, I was greatly influenced by the fellow who an American guy whose name I've just forgotten, but he Um he did a book on evangelism, I can't remember what it was, but he He says in their in personal evangelism, One of the ways, if you're going to be involved in personal work, You have to be able to deal with the interruptions.
And this lady, what happens here is an interruption. The more I've studied that, I don't think it is an interruption. Because When he says to her, No, you've said Right, that you don't have a husband. You actually had a number of husbands, and you're now living with a fellow. Again, tone of voice.
I can't have been judgmental. No. But just. The awareness of being uncovered. Yes.
Then comes the interruption, or maybe it doesn't. Then she says You know Do you think you're supposed to meet God in Gerizim, or do you think we meet him in Jerusalem? Why is she bringing that into the thing? Because presumably she's saying If there is any way that this is dealt with, I want to know where it's dealt with.
So you're right. I think that there's something going on inside there. And what you draw out in the book is that Jesus, he really knows us. And. I think that's something in our evangelism we perhaps need to be clearer on that It isn't that There's just this.
Authority that Of course, Jesus is powerful and supreme, but he knows us intimately. He cares. And that's displayed in the conversation he has with us. Exactly. You know, when we talk to our friends and our neighbors, We actually know things about them that they don't know about themselves.
Or they may not accept. For example, That God has said eternity in their hearts. Or they may say, But I believe when you're dead, you're dead. But we know that that's not true. Yes.
And so. Yeah, it's a wonderful thing. It's an amazing thing that the Bible is. Is not a book that we learn to know. As much as it is a book that shows us how much it knows about us.
Yes, yeah. I think that's what is interesting. These three stories, they all reveal ourselves, our own situation, but also reveal. Christ in that situation.
So the woman at the well, he knew her and he knows us. And then, obviously, the paralyzed man, the man lowered through the roof, you draw out that Jesus knew his greatest need. Talk us then through this final one of the thief on the cross because. Of course, that illustration and that crunch line of He said I could come. Talk us through how how you kind of studied that story and and and drew out that lesson.
Well, like everybody else, I've always been fascinated by the fact that Here in the extremity of life, on the knife edge of death. The the sense of you know antagonism and Just hatred. can come it can come out. It's not that the closer people get to death or guess, well, we should back off, try to be nice, we've only got fifteen minutes left, you know. No, they're both at the same game.
That's the thing that's striking. And then, this is the great question, isn't it? How come the one guy says what he says?
Well, the fact of the matter is that it's a work of grace, that they both were in proximity to Jesus. they both adhered to his Christ from the cross. They both were just violent in their reaction and then all of a sudden. You know, I heard The voice of Jesus say, you know, it's that. And the fact that this man.
First of all, deals, he doesn't speak directly to Jesus. First of all, he speaks to his friend. Yeah, he does the thing. No, he says, hey. We're up here.
We're supposed to be up here. We're getting what we deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong. Then it says Lord, Would you remember me when you come into your kingdom?
Well I mean What an amazing request. and the coming out of such a turnaround And then the r the response of Jesus, yeah, you know. Today you will be with me.
Now The rest of it is conjecture. I mean, that's the thing that distresses me about this.
Now we go into a flight of fancy. But I think the salvation in it is, if I can use that phraseology, the salvation in it is, is that Jesus said. Yeah, today. You will be with me in paradise.
So the only answer I've got is that. If you'll bear with me to pick up on the uh o on the um On the fantasy side of it, I guess, of the story, you in the clip draw out, you know, hey, let's go through the doctrine of justification, or what's your view of church, these sorts of things. Um Was that a conscious thought you were having at that moment because you see that as a real? Danger in the church today, or a danger outside of the church today? As you ask the question, I think it might have been almost subliminal in light of what I said earlier.
Yes. That here we are in a very structured environment where people are dressed in a certain way and they're very orthodox in their position concerning things and perhaps rather. Um, less than kind to people who might not be able to line up accordingly. I mean, like the average interview for church membership, you know.
So, did you have you? Where are you? You know, how are you doing this and that? And you go for church membership, say, No, I didn't do that, no, I haven't been praying very much. No, I know.
And they say, well, you know what, we'll just put you on hold for the time being. But if the entry point in heaven poses those same questions. And you have only one leg to stand on. One ground on which to take your stand, then it is in Christ alone. You know, I mean, that's it.
And that's what that man had to say, because that was all he had to say. He had nothing else going for him save that. That he had asked Christ. Essentially to save him. And Jesus said, Absolutely.
And immediately and irrevocably. I mean, it's it's truly amazing. Do you think we're causing a problem that we're making it too difficult for people to come to Christ? Because doctrine is important. No, absolutely.
Understanding those things, the Christian life and the response, the action is they're all important.
Well, you know, well, let's do it from church history. I mean, let's take the poor soul that was preaching on the day that Spurgeon was converted. I mean, he didn't have a sermon, he didn't have anything going for him except he was the serpent in the wilderness. Look. He kept saying, Look, and when he ran out of material, just said it more.
And then he says to Spurgeon, young man. You? Do you look? And Sporg and Kisara, and he walks up the road, he goes, I looked. I looked.
I looked to Jesus and I found in him my light, my son. Actually, many, many people come to faith in Christ on the strength of very, very little background information, save that they know their need And they have discovered that Jesus is the one who meets their need. And when we say need, we're not talking about the need for a promotion or need for better sanity. But a deep-seated need. A rescue.
A rescue. Alienation. from God who can bridge this gap. Jesus.
So talk me then through the book. It's a short book, but it's it's going through these three stories of which you retell the stories, but then you you draw out the application of the gospel from each one, so that Jesus knew the woman. He knew the man's greatest need, the paralyzed man, and he invites us to come. What's your hope with a book like this?
Well, first I did well. have wide circulation.
so that as many people as possible can be exposed to the the very simplicity of it. and hopefully the clarity of it. I mean the Each of these encounters are not hard to fathom. And When we open up our hearts to what's taking place there. And God may choose just to shine the light there as well and say, you know, I don't think I'm.
The thief, I'm not a woman, I'm not a thing, but I do know. that up until last Friday I thought my biggest need was X. And this is a revolution in my life.
So I hope that the book, and not only that, that it will find its way.
sort of miraculously, but that it will find its way because Folks like myself say to somebody, you know, you might find this helpful. I know you've been considering these things. Have you ever met Jesus? If you think back, and you're too young to remember this, but The great Calvary Chapel movement in the sixties out on the west coast. was was simplicity.
And if you pare back everything that was going on, It was essentially people saying to one another. I have made a wonderful new friend. And I would love to introduce you to him. And the people say, Well, what's the friend? Actually, Jesus.
But that kind of entree, they're not starting from some structured. You know. pragmatic care delivery system. They're just being themselves in the everyday events of life The way that uh Jesus was being himself in the event of the well. I like what you said there of a kind of, oh, on one level it's a deliberate action, isn't it?
I'm going to give this book to my friend, or I'm going to engage in conversation. I'm going to say I've met a friend who's changed my life. But there's also this mysterious God work as well, which happened with the video of like You preach the gospel, but Perhaps never intended it to go viral in that sense. And there is a supernatural work here that's. we can pray for and we can plan for But it's not something we can conjure up ourselves either.
It is a combination of God at work. But being obedient to sharing him. Yeah.
Yeah, it's just the, I mean, it's the parable of the sower, isn't it? We sow the seed. Uh no And only God can make it grow. But That's not a call to indolence or to half-heartedness. It's a cult to zealous endeavor.
It's the hardworking farmer that gets the good return from the work. And one of the things I hope the book will do. put into the hands of people. Material That energizes them, perhaps for the first time in their lives, for ever really taking seriously the opportunity to be brave enough to say to one of their friends, hey. You wanna read this little book?
Yeah.
Uh I have a friend who says uh to to me You have a unique circle of friends. I can't reach your friends, but you can reach, and I can't reach his friends, but he can. And to use that unique circle of friends, I like that the book is story because everyone loves story. But it's simple as well. In the book, Alistair retells the story.
There's then a QR code where people can watch the retelling word for word from the Bible, and then there's the Bible passage there. In in terms of people using it, you mentioned individually. How might that look? What would people do?
Well, in traveling, it's good to have a couple of things in your briefcase with you. In that context. The other way is, of course, where you have access in a restaurant, you have a clothing store. Uh you have a church foyer. where without the things being impressed upon people, They are there and accessible and can be taken.
But also, now you go in the street and you find that somebody's constructed a little box that has books in it. You know, it's very sort of green, I think. Yeah, so we could slip a few in there. You've modelled this as a pastor as well at Parkside. You had this available you had resources available in the lobby and guest services you've given out things.
Can you talk us through a few of those ideas that have perhaps either worked well or, hey, we tried this, it didn't work, but we switched it to this, and we were able to give out lots of resources. I think that the. The The encouragement that I would give to people is: if you are confident in the resource, which is why I'm always much more confident in talking about the Gospel of John, which is out there on the table, than anything else, because I know. I can trust the gospel of John. There's no error in that.
But no, where you've got something like that that you can be enthusiastic about, I think if churches. Can get behind that as a supplement to whatever else they're doing, then, yeah. And that way the person is in charge.
Some sometimes people don't want stuff stuff that But when they have the freedom to walk along and just and just pick it up. It's a bit like radio because in radio you're in complete control. You turn it off, turn it off. Yeah.
Yeah.
So you'd lay it out. Lay them out on tables, kind of just yourself. Yeah, all around the vestibule. Put them everywhere that people are passing. Yeah.
And. Allah allahu um Allow the Lord to prompt them in whatever direction He chooses. Yeah, wide distribution. It means you can you know, obviously reach reach more people. Pray that God will bring fruit.
Let's take us back then right to the purpose of this. What's your Heart longing. From this book?
Well, you know, we have marched under. a little kind of saying for the last forty two years that that we are committed under God to seeing unbelieving people. becoming committed followers of Jesus. And that, of course, is only God opens blind eyes, only God softens hard hearts. But when we say not just in belief, the adjectives important to seeing unbelieving people.
People who don't, who may have a cognizant awareness of Jesus as a man of Nazareth, whatever it might be, but who have never actually committed themselves or entrusted themselves to Christ.
So we want to see unbelieving people become. Committed followers of Jesus. And part of that commitment then. is in Sharing Jesus with others, and therefore, all and any resources that help to that end. are are useful in In our arsenal, as it were.
So that's my hope. That uh Someone somewhere. We'll read the book. And uh They'll write their own chapter. at the end of the book.
And they'll tell their friends, you know. Um my name is Joe or my name is Mary. Um I had never thought about the fact that that man thought that if he got his legs he was fine. Yeah.
Because I've always thought if my marriage got fixed I would be fine. But it got fixed and I'm not fine and I discovered that God put his figure on my knee and And hey, have a copy of the book. Alistair, we're so thankful that the Lord prompted you to give that illustration that it got out. And yeah, our prayer is that this book might be used. You've been listening to a conversation with Alistair Begg, where we've been talking about the man on the middle cross.
You can get the book at truthforlife.org, where it's available just for $1. Get it for yourself, for your own personal use. But as churches and organizations, see how you might be able to use it. Visit truthforlife.org where you can get it just for $1.
Well, thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. And that this will be an encouragement to get copies of this book for your own discussions with others. The address, again, is truthforlife.org slash store.
