Hello, this is Alistair Begg from Truth for Life. Recently I had the opportunity to sit down with Jonathan Carswell for a while. from 10 of those publishing. We discuss ministry, evangelism, and how to be effective at introducing others to Jesus. I hope you enjoy listening.
Now here's Jonathan. Hey, I'm Jonathan Carzall, and I'm here talking with Alastair Begg. We're talking about ministry, evangelism and sharing Jesus as we go about our daily life. One of the things I've enjoyed about your ministry, your preaching ministry, but also personally, you have a. Keen Evangelistic heart.
Was that modelled to you? Did you see that through, say, Derek Prime? Was that modelled to you? Where did that come from? Hmm.
You know, I haven't really thought about that. I I think it's come from from everywhere. It's come from the fact that I was brought up in Glasgow in an interdenominational mission hall, which had been founded as a result of the evangelistic missions of Moody. Transanke. And so in that environment The the the combination of uh you know Good news and good deeds was being worked out in the city center and.
I mean, I I just thought, well, I guess that's what you do. You know, the people are poor and are in need of food and clothing and help, but more than that, they're in need of Jesus. And so that was there. As I went on in life, When the coffee bar scene was there in Yorkshire and in the in the 60s. The reason that we would want to do that is so we could tell other people about Jesus.
It never occurred to me that that would not be the end game.
So there's some say, well, what are you doing? You're just singing songs.
Well, no, we're singing songs with a purpose. What's the purpose? To see people come to know Jesus. And then, of course, the the influence of Campus Crusade when I was sixteen, seventeen. And those fellows were, you know, very direct in the way they approach things.
And my first reaction to that was somewhat negative. Until I really figured it out, and then I said, No, these people are very helpful because we can spend a lot of time just rambling and going on and on, like I'm doing right now, and then sometimes you can cut to the chase. I've always admired that, you know, the clarity along with brevity that doesn't need to go on and on and on. And so. You know, it's one thing observing it and trying to do it, it's another thing doing it.
I mean, it's a challenge, isn't it? Oh, it is. And I was going to ask you on a personal level. You know, as I was coming here today, I prayed before that I'd be able to speak to the Uber driver. Turned out he didn't speak English, so it didn't go so well.
You know, my heart began to race. You you begin to oh, you know, Holy Joey, maybe a little nervousness. What advice would you give for somebody that is? They just find it difficult, or it does, it kind of makes their mouth dry and their palms sweaty.
Well, you know. Venture. You know, venture. Just try it. Just get on with it.
Sometimes, you know, the way that it will come is that you've created a context where the question comes to you.
So for example the Uber driver. If the Uber driver says, so where am I taking you? You say, I'm going to such and such a place. If you don't want to integrate into it, you just tell him he's going to the hotel. If say, well, I'm actually I'm going to an event, I'm going to speak.
I don't tell him what I'm going to speak on, and the wholebody says, What are you going to speak on?
Now you've got an opportunity either to end the conversation by saying something, you know, sort of. Like, well, I'm going to give a theological address. Or you can really advance them all by saying, well, I'm just going there to speak about Jesus. Yeah, now that may end it as well. But if the guy goes, Well, why would you want to do that?
Now you're off to the races. Because he's the guy who's steering the conversation. And the same on the plane. If you've got your Bible, And I'm very wary of that as well. I don't want to be like, oh, look, you know, you can pick a huge big buck.
No, people moving away from it. Looking for a seat. Pretending they're asleep. Yeah, looking for an open seat, putting their earphones on, and say, oh, Lord, here we go. Yeah, I mean the the That we wanted we wanted approach things in a way that is is humble It's genuine, it's not formulaic.
But I must say that anytime I get a little. Grasp of what my line is.
So, for example, You know, how would you explain things? The good, the bad, the new, the perfect. Yes. Just that in my mind, have that framework in my mind.
So I know it's well, did you see what happened with the plane crash that went down?
Well, how in the world is this?
Well, it's just a devastating thing, isn't it? That person will usually volunteer their view of the world. Then we get an opportunity to say, Well and most people don't have any framework in their mind.
So it's understandable that They're afraid to launch into the conversation because they've got no fixed points. They've got nothing to bring it back to. And that was always what you were taught in personal evangelism. Don't allow the person To drag you off into a discussion about the Sphinx. In Egypt, say to them.
Well, that's a good question. And we can come to that, but let me. And so you control the conversation in that way, otherwise. It goes perished real fast.
Well, a few things you said there. One is preparation.
So knowing the gospel for yourself, having that framework, whether it's kind of. Through the Roman Road outline or two ways to label the ones you've said there. But then intention as well. Like, I'm going to seek to have a conversation. Because, yeah, with that Uber driver, you can.
You can quickly shut it down if you don't want to have a chat. But you also picked up on something that I think does change the conversation is when they ask a question. Right. Have you thought about. How In the conversations Jesus has with people in the Gospels, questions either that he asks or that they ask really change the conversation.
In your conversations, have you thought how you can draw out those questions, how they can or questions that you ask that you know will bring questions about? Yeah. I yeah, I mean I think the I mean the foundational question I was talking with is just uh In the last couple of days, and this person came to me saying that he has a Buddhist friend and he's done the cosmological argument with him, and he's done this, and he's done that, and he's done the next thing. And I listened to it for as long as I possibly could. And he said, you know, is there a key?
I said, well, Yeah, there is a key, and that is that you present Jesus to them. Tell them who Jesus is, tell them what Jesus has done. Say to them, look. There's a ton of questions, philosophical questions, scientific questions. But here is the one question: Is Jesus Christ the person he claimed to be?
Let's give ourselves to a consideration of that. And that allow the person to be very open in their In their questioning or in their pushback, don't become immediately defensive or take the high ground because. It di it all depends again, as you know, whether we've got a one-shot conversation here or whether we're dealing with a colleague at work that we're just having a coffee with.
So we aren't trying to close the deal every time. We're just trying to advance the ball up the field a little bit and be content with that. Can I pick up on that specifically? Family can be very, very difficult to share the gospel with because one, they see your own sinful life, but it is, it's an ongoing relationship. It's often at Christmas, you know, you're not meant to mention politics and religion and money, but But you also want to share Christ.
Have you any advice for people in that situation?
Well again, I think you're hoping for somebody to To leverage Jesus into the conversation. And you're hoping that it isn't you, that if someone says, So what What happened when you went to that thing? And they may. I may have thrown that to you so that you can get the opportunity. To really say what was going on on the thing.
And not in a manipulative way. But again, it's planning and intention, again. It is.
Well, in it, yeah. If you aim at nothing, you're sure to hit it. Your church situation Where y you know, you are Pastoring a large congregation. How did you help? the church think evangelistically As individuals, perhaps some of what you've said, but then also corporately as a church, did you have a particular Pattern for evangelism?
Did you have a minister that was in charge of evangelism? What did you do at Parkside?
Well, you know, when I go back to the good old days in Scotland, You know, Charlotte Chapel in Edinburgh was a city centre church. And Once a month we had a guest service. Everybody knew that in that evening service on that particular day. There was a peculiar opportunity to invite friends to come to church. And in the week.
Preceding that. We went door to door. In the flats and apartments of Edinburgh. knocking on doors, say, I would like just to leave an invitation for our churches here in the center. Not every not everything lends it to that, but I followed that pattern then in Hamilton and did the same thing.
And sometimes we would do a series of You know, 10 that would be printed on a card so that everybody knew where they were, when they were, and what they were. And again, that gave the member of the congregation something to actually put. Present, not just like, would you like to come to a talk, but the You chose provocative titles, if you like, you understand this. When I came here to the States, then I think I spent more. trying to mobilize the people themselves.
Here's the thing though. People become like their minister. For good or for ill? Yeah. If there's no sense of sort of evangelistic zeal, that is coming out of the pulpit on a regular basis, it's unlikely that there will be sort of a picked up evangelism explosion in that context.
So that They they they respond not only To the exhortation to be a part of it, but they respond actually. By realizing what it is that we're doing when we do that. They're saying, well, he might do it. in a small section of a long talk. But I can do a small section in a In an environment, and they learn, I think they learn by example.
If a minister is examining themselves and thinking, oh, well, yeah, I've an evangelistic gap. there. What advice would you give to him? to develop that. Because you're absolutely right, the congregation w will, for good or bad, end up like their minister.
Well, you know. Models again. That like I mentioned, for example, when I when I was a as a a teenager in in in school As a Christian, When I went to the evening service in St. Michael the Belfry in York, and That David Watson guy did what he did. I said to myself, Wow.
I want to be able to do that. I want to learn how you do that. And so. I could never do it as he did it. But you've got to pick guys that you can at least get close to.
There's no point in picking some genius who starts apologetically with the cosm you know, th th that's not going to be me, or somebody who uses uh scientific arguments to get to the place. I can't do that because it wouldn't be me. But um at a at a different level involved in let's see if If your brain is wired to the arts, And to music and to stuff like that, then go with what you've got. Don't go and try it, and if you know about baseball, then use it. If you don't know anything about baseball, which I don't, then don't try and use those illustrations, because the people's uh the people go and he didn't understand that.
This may be unfair and you may not like doing it, but how would you assess? what you do. Is it is it story and illustration and quotes? 'Cause you you call to memory song lyrics and poems. What what how would you describe your own sort of way?
On a good day it's a dog's breakfast. Oh. You know If I really thought about it and analyzed it afterwards, I probably would never preach again. Mm. Because When I actually Sometimes hear what I just did.
It doesn't endear me to myself. I don't mean that in a sense of false modesty. I mean it absolutely honestly. At that time I go, oh golly, maybe I could try that again, but not just like that. Years ago, I was asked if I would go, Don Carson asked me if I would go to Trinity Seminary when I was here in the early days.
What do you want me to do? I want you to come and be part of the Practical theology department. I said, Donald, no, I said. I couldn't do that. I said, well, why couldn't you do it?
I said, well, because I only have like one talk. I mean, once I did my talk, I went, Well, I can't just have the same talk every day. He said, Oh, well, you're just being self-deprecating. I said, No, I'm telling you the truth. And secondly, the reason I don't want to do it is because I want to play.
I want to play. I don't want to coach. I want to play. I want to be on the field. And that sense of being on the field and that genuine.
Fearfulness that comes with running out onto the field is all part of the deal. You know, because eventually. You're just out there. You and Jesus on your own. with your notes.
And Most guys And this will sound self-serving, maybe I don't mean it to. But most guys who do what they do naturally Don't know what they're doing. And so they're not good people. Like Alec Ferguson was a great. Manager.
He was just an average player. Yeah. Guys who are instinctive in what they do, or you could move to golf, take a guy like Severano Piasteris. He wouldn't have been a guy to teach golf on a range, but he was able to do stuff and attempt stuff that nobody else ever should. And so there is a sense in which there is freedom in that as well, that we're not trying to meet a certain step.
We're trying to meet the standard of humility and integrity and honesty with the scriptures. But beyond that, I always tell my colleagues. Be yourself and forget yourself. And the forgetting of yourself is part and parcel of that process. Because if you're monitoring, if you can hear yourself preaching while you're preaching.
It's not good. Yeah. That balance of Self-critical Improving, developing, learning from others, while also not spending too much time thinking about yourself. How do you get that balance?
Well, I think balance is is always hard, isn't it? Because You only get balance by trying to correct situations. From being out of balance, we're trying to get back in line. This is where colleagues come into play. This is where At least one good friend comes into play.
This is when listening to the people that you know have your back comes into play. I'm not talking about just soliciting. If you solicit things, people may Seek to encourage you when you don't deserve it, or pull the rug out from underneath your feet because they think it would be. It would be something you deserve, which of course it might be. I think it's like, how do you, they always ask the same thing.
You go on the road because you've got to do all the things for these, and the people say, well, how do you balance the time with your family? And what about time with your wife?
Well, I don't know what you say, but I say some weeks I get it wrong, and some weeks I get it right. And the weeks that I get it wrong, I know I've got to try and get it back on track. And the same is true. both in terms of every aspect of preaching. Uh volume.
I see down here. I ask her, you know, am I getting that horrible tone in my voice? I ask her. Um what about pace? Am I starting to go like a like a steam train or an electric train?
But all those things Um But most of all, You know, because Homiletically, it's either: Are you loud or quiet? Are you very fast or are you slow? Yeah. Are you high or are you low? You can do all of that, but the real issue is tone.
Tone. What is the tone that comes out of you? Does it come out as a I know. Or worse, to come out. I don't know, and I don't know if anybody wants to hear.
That element of it. And in that element, If you stand up and do books, which you which you do masterfully well, In the first 30 seconds, Everybody in the room is going, is this guy for real? That's all they're asking. And the same way you're preaching. I mean, in that initial encounter, They're actually making very fast judgments.
They may prove to be wrong judgments overall, but they want to know. That the person up there is is not I himself. Yeah. Yeah. And that genuine reali the the the the grounded kind of real.
I so good friends, I know you'd say so, your wife has definitely kind of helped but with that. If somebody is in a ministry position and they're looking around and thinking, I think I've got a weak spot that I don't have close friends like that. Would you give it what advice would you give to them?
Well keep looking. I'm sure there's somebody in the context. It might be an unusual person. It might be a doctor in your congregation who has a wonderful bedside manner. And you don't really you don't have that sense of empathetic dimension.
He'd be a good guy to go to. Maybe a carpenter who's used to cutting things at angles and moving directly, and you tend to be all over the map. This guy could help you. An engineer who's putting together a bridge and knows that the pieces have to join up, and he's been listening to you for a while, he knows that your stuff is full of non sequiturs. You know, that you you apparently got from A to C Without gonna be But everybody else needed B to get to C.
Yeah, that kind of thing, I think, is.
Some of our colleagues do this regularly. They prepare the materials, sit with the pastoral team, let the pastoral team pick it apart, make suggestions, everything else. My ego can't. My ego can. I don't know if it's my ego or I don't know what it is.
I don't want to do that. Once I got picked apart, I would be such a basket case I could never use it. And so very seldom do I ask somebody to give me a critique. Because I'm too afraid of what it's going to be. But I remember I asked Dick Lucas.
I said, Dick, you know, if I send you a couple of my tapes, would you do something?
Well, very reluctantly, of course, Dick said. Oh, send it to me. Send it to me. And Eventually I got a reply. DEAR ALISTER, I listened to the tapes.
Slow down, tick. Huh? That was it. Yeah. He says you're speaking too fast.
That was all I got from it. But it was enough. It was enough, yeah. I just want to ask one final question as we finish about preaching and. Just trying to draw in a few things that you've said there.
One thing I noticed is With A number of preachers these days is they seem to present The truth. But it seems to be a a harsh Truth. Right. And one of the things I've admired fr from you is A clarity on the truth, as you have said frequently, keeping the main thing the main thing. but a a gentleness while also not watering down the truth.
Can you help us think through How you've gone about that to ensure there is a softness, a warmth, perhaps. while also holding true to the truth of the gospel. Again, I think it comes back to the influences on our lives. That I've tried to get the best out of every fellow that I Had contact with James Graham from Gold Hill Baptist Church. Um in the seventies, Scott Cleverer.
But he had a winsomeness in his delivery. From a distance, although I heard him up close, Lloyd Jones. who could be as direct as anybody. But you never I never got the impression that he was talking down, that he would say, you know, and you need don't need to listen to the voice of a little man, you know. And Because that's not the voice you're listening to, and actually believing that.
And then, you know, just going down that line. And part of it is, you know, I'm convinced that children are given to us for our sanctification. More than that, but But they are they are part they have certainly been in my life that When your own children are not where you might long for them to be. That will either put a harshness in you or I'll put a softness in you. That it will soften you in relationship.
So you're not going to play the card about, well, and some of you have got kids that are just, you know, that sort of thing. Because now Y you got that. And also when you're aware of your own sinful propensities, you know, somebody asked in the QA two nights ago, so what has been the biggest problem that you've faced, you know, in 42 years? I said me. Yeah.
And they think you're being funny. But no, you're not being funny. Because it's your own sinful heart, it's your own pride, it's your own neglect of Prayer is it. That's the issue. And when you actually In your heart of hearts believe that.
Like, you know, the old stuff that what you are In your bedroom, on your own, before God, is what you are, and nothing else. When that really dawns and stays with you. then I think that is a contributing factor. to a genuine Winsom Nuts. You've been listening to me, Jonathan Castle, talking with Alistair Begg from Truth for Life.
I hope you've enjoyed our conversation. You can find out more at truthforlife.org.
Well, thanks for listening. I hope you found the discussion and encouragement in your ministry and in your efforts to lead others to come to know and trust in the Lord Jesus.
