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January 15, 2020 11:10 pm
Today, talking with President of the Southern Baptist Convention and the Worst Christian of 2019, J.D. Greear! Plus, discussing his new book "above all."
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Now here's your host Steve Noble apparently is pastor JD Greer the summit church here in Durham North Carolina thrown at us as well as the president of the Southern Baptist convention and actually threw this up on the screen the other week service which is pretty funny.
The worst Christian of 2019, according to pulpit and pen, and I thought at first JD that he at least they called your Christian. It was an honor to be nominated, so you are in some pretty good company because it was you it was Beth Moore. It was Danny Aiken, the president, Southeastern Baptist. Finally, I finally was able to walk across the state by license number and handwriting degree handed to me which was nice. James McDonald down all kinds, bad roads, David, Eddie, or the like. How did I get in that.
How did I win over then.
James McDonald is asking mankind about having somebody taken out literally at school, Harriet Miller, JD Greer lofted above James McDonnell anyway so it without our attached agenda welcome and I'll just booming your face a totally smoky thing at hashtag next year. Why is there only one woman among the nominees of the same woman as last year. Classic C manages not just get Jesus to come back. Let's just get out of what I think.
Anyway, it's great to see you. Thanks for being on okay so here we go in the worst Christian 2019 and and when I got done about that but let's talk about it was just me. The backdrop of that to be the backdrop of the whole thing converted to me weaving in and out JD's newest books called. Above all, the gospel is the source of the church's renewal so that look like that the gospel above everything in your life, including politics, including culture, what does that look like to be a gospel first person gospel first church order, weave that is the overarching narrative.
The metanarrative today over all these other conversations so will start with that in terms of the bulb and pending just criticism as you get a ton of it and which I said this to my son earlier today Clay hoops about me 19 is already talking about what the JD today I similar things were in a talk about how to handle criticism and Clay looked me in the face.
He goes you mean yours like shut up later you can go wash your car something anyway but you been dealing with this is one thing to be the pastor of a large church but another thing when you become the president of the Southern Baptist convention. So how do you deal with criticism because the rich just a regular part of the deal and is it worse than you expected me. It whatever reason, by God's grace. She's given me some people my life that speak truth and they are critical me in the right ways and I learned a lot and Jack Larson criticism, sometimes even mean-spirited criticism I can learn a lot from them but also give me the ability to understand that usually it has less to do with me and more to do with the person we live. I think in a culture increasingly that just built on this. I mean, it's like we we Christians, especially the more conservative we are.
We love to think of ourselves as above the culture. But really, in this there's probably no other way that were more shape by then. We live in a culture that is an outrage culture so images go to Fox news, CNN, MSNBC and somebody is losing their mind over something and is just like the smallest things I meet. I know that that that the world always good policies always are polarized in communities but these seem to think about how that loss of that civic fabric what we just import it right in the church, you should literally have distinctions between what are essential gospel issues and the water issues that there can be your understandable liberty on I'm sure if you and I said here long enough I wouldn't take along we can find things that were like yeah I would say that way.
That's where we have talked about is normally how our lunches go right mean IEF like we get out more like manna at the like. Steve is music close brother faith in grateful that we get to be not only for the same church proposing ministry units are on the same side alternately and were not going to come to hundred percent agreement because were falling in, but by the grace of God we have the things that are essential are unified right so we can argue if you want to call it that week right but we don't even have the ability anymore to agree to disagree writers don't do that right front, but I think the age of Trump is just a revelation of what was already there. Aitchison exposure it and I don't want to say or imply in any form that light will treat as an important which is dumb it down, hold hands and be right there are things that are worth fighting sure dividing of yeah and Paul wrote a whole New Testament where he tells you he says things like you have anybody doesn't preach this gospel, or if they get this wrong that's not something you can you can coexist with, but he also has a whole another category. Things were. He says, look, this is what you how I approach this, but I would rather I would rather keep my opinion on that to myself of it met great vision. You and I am well that that's the murder talk about that is going to disagreements in the church in matters that are essential for salvation in matters that are important but not essential in the matters of indifference were to get the bat but but handling criticism and I think it's something we have to be careful on your side to handle and I get plenty myself and institutional as well. Just like with Danny Aiken any Aiken Southeastern Baptist theological seminary hired runner up here and swallow you worst Christian he was and that he was on the list. I think trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Maybe I'm not a big and efficient, some not in there but but Southeastern to getting hammered on different issues from inside the body of Christ. Is there a better how would you prescribe that we handle that because I miss you. We have significant differences here and there. We should talk about these things because were not after Kumbaya whereafter true absolutely right. You will usually again. Say what you just what you said there issues that Christians that God have historically gone away back to the Nicene Creed, you know, if you don't understand right things about Jesus.
I don't judge you but we can't be the same church together and try to put your house on the church and inerrancy of the Bible X passivity of Christ gender yet today. Things like you have the sanctity of marriage the sanctity of life. These are not things that we need to do it to say, well… Have a big tent. The these are things we need to have a narrow tent but then what happens is because we live in an outrage, culture, and because just our fallen nature is, by nature, it tends toward the vision we find ourselves in a place were going away from what Jesus prayed in John 17 where we are unified around the most essential things you know it.
This the state always gets attributed to Augustine's Dalgliesh said this, but you in unity we got means to me those that have unity and nonessentials there ought to be liberty in all things Rodney charity matches on those things go against our enemy loves to plant discord sure he loves to create peace with her ought to be discord and he loves to put discord where there ought to be peace and he loves to to create to replace charity and love and humility was self-righteousness and that's what I think you see that mean in the SBC right now, I realize that a lot of our listeners are now not to be connect with us about convention but is use as an example, since you yet. I just left like even if you can't be happy right now we are experiencing a resurgence of people coming to Jesus and I hear that awesome music and I've been away to be able to isolate certain you're certainly a radio professional by this project. I appreciate that.
But see, the problem is, the less you talk tomorrow I have to talk and I gotta run it out today.
The segment so it sounds like a professional.
I know what I'm doing, which in this case, you also happen to be one that I'm doing this is why I can say now it's almost back in 2019. I'll make sure I appreciate that which happens to be my guest today.
My friend who also happens my pastor, Pastor Judy Greer the summit church here in Durham and Raleigh Cary and Chapel Hill and Granville County and in all parts east-west North and South because God is just using this church in so many different ways and also happens to the present Southern Baptist convention sore all over the map today were both kind of that way anyway so I recovered a lot of different ground appreciate your telling a lesson in ADD. Just so we're just gonna pray to the Lord that some of this makes sense to somebody by the time we got home today are talking about criticism and then I wanted to bring up is one of the things this is just an example and people are sending me messages on Facebook. Okay, this is kind of SBC business and and so I don't want to get too lost in the minutiae last year June annual convention. There is a proposal that working to acknowledge something about critical race theory intersection out right which listen, here's reality. Most evangelical Christians in America.
I just lost them right there like no other buzz phrases that I think hurt, but they don't understand it, but this was kind of a brouhaha right so so how do you handle that.
When that happens, some legitimate concerns and some questions. But how do we deal with that now.
I mean wouldn't when people are asking questions about it. One of the reasons that they came out with a resolution. There's because there are a lot of people who were a lot of people insist that this is the right way to evaluate the dynamics that are taking place between races, the other to say no to hold that whole framework is comes out of the that the wrong worldview. You know what what the SBC resolution. You can always be tweaked and improved.
Of course, but what the essence of it was was no it's not the right way to look at the world we look at the world to the lens of Scripture, we understand that all people are both sinners and you know there they play different roles and we all have relationships in which we are the one in power and the one in which were not met.
Takes place in marriage and family, and in all these things, but it also recognizes that because you historically different groups tend to, you have an identity between the group that you there are certain aspects of it that might be helpful in at least understanding why does somebody react that way.
Why does this situation make them feel that way.
And so you are trying to say is there a way that you can glean insight from from some things even when they come from, you know, a foundation or or they may end up at a place where you don't want to go about think it's one of the you go back and have any familiarity with Christian philosophy. That's what's been happening since the time of oh since the earliest Christian philosophers as they been saying hey to get this the foundation of this and the trajectory. This is wrong, but this is a genuine insight into human nature, a genuine insight into how people interact and and made to reduce to the cliché, but you can eat the fish and spit out the bones. There are people who think why would you even deal with that right. My question why we talking about this because it is received from a biblical worldview perspective.
I have a lot of problems with it. Both critical race theory and intersection malady, and so that's what that was my reaction right, what, why, why is something were putting down on paper, but you'd be had some inside I just received it in you and I have told about this before so I know you know but it is easy for to couple white guy sitting here to say about that. Yeah, but what you some of our our our brothers and sisters colors.
I will look for small not only is this world that we experience, sometimes differently than you, but is also something that we often hear people using this to explain and they want to know what that's evaluated biblically.
It's like say why bring up evolution your easier kids go to public school there to hear this that we as a Christian is. It will hear some aspect of evolution, like the microevolution parts that we can glean some saffron, but we think the whole you know random forces another time. Nobody was everything that's fundamentally wrong will always lead you somewhere where back so I think that when that's the world you and I not part of the world that we live in.
So were not always asking the question, but for if were going to have a diverse church looking to bring diverse questions. You gotta be ready. You know, Lewis says CS Lewis said in a good philosophy has to exist for no other reason than that philosophy is the answer. Maybe would help your host not me, but you don't like what what is it like to give a block of real quick definition of what you see. Critical race theory.
When you look at what and when you look at both those things, and in some of these he is, it depends on how far back you want to go right, you can start getting into a Marxists viewpoint of the world and people and groups intersection. Allie basically as I actually did part of this on the show yesterday intersection malady talking about. Depending on how many minority groups. You are part of.
In your opinion matters more so if you happen to be up a transgendered Muslim woman, then you're in three different minority groups there so your opinion is more valid than the white Anglo-Saxon B grades you got more problems and you have more oppression and more challenges in life, and so working to push that opinion to the front to the front of the stage and so I'm I go to all these things and let's forget about pure Marxism pure communism, pure socialism. Okay, those those die on their face right spent a lot of time that when you have a thing, something like intersection County where there's some I would call it a piece of Swiss cheese I can dig into it and find some things from a biblical perspective ago got hit. Okay, here we need to be willing to send this to.
I need to be willing to listen to somebody with a different perspective with a different experience and is gonna look at Scripture through a different lens because of their background and their skin color, their ethnicity right and I need to listen to that list because I might be in the majority culture in America but I'm not in the majority culture in the church at large around the world running around the world on the spot in the buttermilk right most people don't. Most Christians pay a little right leg and little red plaque any and in Siegel is my is it possible that my perspective on a lot of things is jaded to a certain extent by my experience I corset it right. So then I go into those things like intersection out here are critical race theory ago okay here's some things here that I can pull out and make some sense. Here some other stuff that I might right now I'm not a big student of it. I spent enough time in it to go okay have got some problems here right you got a conversation with yeah but at some point in my okay general back. Your first point why we talking about it at all will. That's it.
You would expect me to say the right way I doesn't think like DA Carson says errors often truth out of proportion right and you certainly see that with a lot of dimensions. Critical race theory because you know when it comes to like the idea that I read the Bible in a certain way because my background will that's true right and so yes, it can help me to love them as I worked with text here. I'll ask for sometimes as a woman. Sometimes somebody's been through a different background and built builders built like this question answered the text that I wasn't even I would even asking that question and I think that's that that's a healthy way to grow the body of Christ will errors truth out of proportion when I didn't take that to say therefore I cannot interpret the Bible or in any reasonable way because I'm a white male who is actually separately is what that would be that would be out about what you taken it somewhere and it's it's wrong, there are certain dimensions of our conversations that arise out of critical race theory that, for example when when when there's a shooting that takes place where a white policeman that you actually whatever you like a black teenager stuff like that and I get my first impulse which is partially correct.
It is to say, okay, what will you let's look at what the processes of justice. Yeah flow. Let's make sure it's would always ask questions before you shoot right and and and that's that's healthy and that that's the bedrock of justice. Well, for a black friend to say I understand that. I think it's helping but understand the reason to create such an immediate reaction to me is not connecting it to a history of police doing this and that is it mean that we need to throw the system of justice out. Don't all this history of this one police horses are but at least helps me understand emotionally what some of my my friends of color processing method.
Good contribution that it's given to me because I'm seeing this emotional reaction both on their part and my part in the light of a larger history… That's a conversation that you can glean wisdom from even if you don't, you know, except certain of that philosophical or your anthropological underwritings and what you just use the word conversation and in the digital age.
I think that's the biggest problem running into we don't do conversation anymore. I launch a salvo on twitter. You have to reply Ralph. We sit down and have lunch together.
What were actually to converse and work our way through the things the weather (or whoever overdoing is lobbing things across the aisles at each other and there's no conversation there's no dialogue and the digital world has done that nature done that angry blog from basement to Alabama to take us anywhere will be right back know you may not know this investigating here the seven churches with me today. I'm not in the studio.
I'm in his duty in your office.
Things will think you for your hospitality, your classic rock fan did you recognize that some I will how direct I am not allowed to. So I got no problem talking about my history, classic rock, so it's not Sandy Patty. I don't remember it. That's it straight from the pit of hell and smells like smoke. I got her in with you. I will never played out again and repenting right now you're in there now lying right so disagreements of the church. We are outcome on that subject. Yet you preached about this two weeks ago which is great. A lot of people responded. I a lot of great conversations with people that I know from the summit church so it kind of the three different areas number one matters essential for salvation and I call these can Hills to die right you diagnose Elsa will talk about that matters that are important to the church and faith but not essential to salvation's are kind of a second-tier thing there in the number three matters of indifference debatable thing preferences you say great rate red carpet. I see green carpet you say drums on the stage. I say no drums in the states.
Those are those are debatable that they're not a big deal there or not, can affect the gospel right so what do we have a problem with this generally mean, I think, based on our conversation and yeses like problems one might have reason to think so. You have three categories in the game is not original with me that you got matters really are essential for salvation. If somebody gets the deity of Christ wrong or salvation, but they got wrong. That's that's crucial that second category is really key and I think it's it's it's important you the right words. There like exact words because these are metals that are essential for the faith but may not be salvation disqualified things. For example if somebody had confusion about the inerrancy of the Bible.
They could still put genuine faith in Christ believing he's the son of God, they would be wrong about their views of the Bible but is that a disbelieving that the Bible had errors in it. Does that disqualify you from salvation well you say that it how about you questions about gender unit. There are over marriage or you might put in this category at our church we would you know about the role of you know women as pastors or something like that and it's what we say will lease these are important issues we actually will will say our church stands on these issues out. They are important with faith and even different churches I can still be in tell you if if you take a position that I can make a pretty good case for biblically and I can tell you said we are not a Christian right so that that happens in the right a lot. So if if somebody that espouses the gospel a sense had heart, mind, soul, body, spirit the whole thing to the essentials of the gospel and they go but I don't think it's the government's role to say anything about marriage rental think it's the government's role.
I really to get involved with abortion.
I'm personally pro-life but I'm think the government should be passing laws to tell people what to do with their own decisions, for if I turn on the say what you can't possibly be a Christian because you got that wrong. I'm straying from the second secondary issue from you exactly right. Okay menu for third which is where Christians really ought to be able to be in the same church. The first two you're almost church defining things just because for example I got some people who love Jesus love the gospel may believe that women it's okay for them to be pastors and you know that they could not really serve at our church on staff because of that you, as we have the draw that line but you that's not the same as 1/3 level issue and that third level issue is going to be something like some the stuff we talked about with you how we approach certain political questions how we hear even something policy and stuff are not talking about like the issue of life not clear that that would be a well-being category two.
Clearly God you created two genders.
That's clear. A sexual ethics that's clear right. Those are category to know whether it's best to homeschool private school was so your kid me a glass of wine at dinner and all these things or three rich I read the Harry Potter series right all these things are like what is and I think we can say I meet Paul when he talks about the things in Romans 14 Paul said, I have very definite opinions on these and he's an apostle.
So he was probably right on his opinion on any call people who did not agree with him week matter, but he saying that in this level of issue unit C here is more important than uniformity of opinion on that and I think that our enemy loves to get us to take things and put them in the wrong category because those categories one and two men we had.
We have to divide churches over them and I think Jesus wants us to climb and how many Emmy let's say we've got the 10 actual Christians. There, the profession of faith is real.
The born-again full of the Holy Spirit.
Five of them voted for Trump. Five of them voted for Hillary in today's world there looking at each other going you call yourself a Christian, and they have nothing to do with each other right and and that's a problem right and that nontender. I know that's hard for me right five something to make the profession of faith, but they vote for a candidate or a party that believes in abortion on demand, up to the point of delivery. Unlike how in the world do you do that right but I'm still a second level conversation rises in the gospel conversation right. Although I need to worry about biblical authority they're coming at you because we start talking about the sanctity of life. I realize were.
That is a is a top tier it all.
May I say, I get that there's something there but really what I would say where I've heard it, you probably asked more than others is where somebody will say something like I have Christian friends who say to me, say, listen, I just don't see how after a man like Trump Donald Trump with such severe ethical moral compromises such as derogatory things about others, I shall make a Christian should ever supported healthcare will good you think he's done right. Encourage division bigotry and that's a compromise or a witness and a witness is more important than political benefit. So the only Christian position is never drop others because they never hold on, I'm not a fan of all that that Trump says or does, but I do I like it better than the alternatives and all the current Democratic candidates support abortion on demand, they publicly flaunt Christian ideas on morality and marriage.
They promote restrictions on religious freedom. So even on not a fan of Donald Trump's character. A lot of his verbiage is morality. I just like the better choice is to vote for him and just let God use King steering Peking sour spray because meetings drop quite well those two I have Christians of of great maturity who occupy about those fears.
I think the I think I have a leaning toward one of them I think they ought to be able to talk spirited you wanted to make it up like he wins the argument Kumbaya is an article right choices are what I think of the other day say well I respect your right to sit on and we decided affect our fellowship and what we do here because we recognize that while it's going to be uncomfortable yet because you had the tax collector and the zealot right who hung out with Jesus Christ himself for three years now to think that those guys are Kumbaya holding hands old time is stupid. Once I burn Romeo's like Thoreau yeah and so that the problem there is is I think here's the bigger challenge and I run into this all the time on the air and I run into it all the time on my Facebook page by go negative on Trump and I largely like his administration, and I things that he's done is something that I don't, but largely I'm but I'm not wearing a mega hat and I see a Trump sign in my heart because it other things about him that I like okay that's not Christlike but absurd architecture going on your back so you but that's not public wasn't public until now. Thanks for that, so that's a joke. Thanks for it is deftly a joke but you mean and so I look at that goal. Okay, here we are inside the church. That was the saddest thing to me about 2016 is that the church turned on herself. When we we lost the ability to have a civil disagreement and then adjust we just separated this right, we drove bagel thing down the middle and I wasn't Trump's fault that was artful right in and that that's heartbreaking to choose a crucial virtues that were almost absent from the church right there on all sides of this question. One was empathy you know to a lot of those who wouldn't supporters get from my encouragement to those in our church that felt compelled to support Trump is to say have empathy at least understand why some of the other people in our church very conflicted, especially members of color to those who are wronged up once they never Trump side I was the virtue that I felt like we need to be challenged with his charity like get the benefit of the doubt to the motives this this this may not of been because they you were secretly white supremacist right reason they did.
This is made by mother issues of religious liberty and pro-life and some things that they were concerned about. So empathy and charity. That's what creates unity in the body yeah and I think that's when we look at that and that the really behind the book above which is JD's most recent book above the gospel is the source of the church's renewal. I think we lose sight of that price I used to have this problem in and got dealt with me. This is going to the harvest Crusade here in Raleigh with Greg Laurie back in 07 and I had all this stuff flipped upside down.
Now I understand okay politics is important, but the gospel's preeminent right so does now. This is a tough question for a lot of people. Does God care more about lost souls or aborted babies and the answer is he cares more about lost souls, cassettes, eternal aborted babies are temporary, sadistic, brutal murder, all of it but which one is more important in and that's a that's a very difficult question to wrestle with. It should be. Yeah, but ultimately these internal things in this temporal things and I think we forget that, and we get bogged down in abortion is a spike and that drives everybody nuts, but just I think we just lost the ability to show sincerity to one another even have a conversation we don't even converse. I unfriend you and that's it right to leave your church go to some of the church until I hear everything I want to hear right and it's just I think it's really hurting our witness yeah and I don't blame Trump that I blame us yeah and I just begin to think about the SBC particular which right now got you call me to be to lead yeah just you look at things and you say look, even if you can't be happy about.
People come to Jesus about a mission resurgence in a denomination of 47,000 churches that standing unwaveringly on the inerrancy of the Bible.
The extra 70 of Christ's clarity about God's teaching on gender and and sexuality and get the gospel of the nations. If you can't be happy about that.
Then what's you upset about is your happy people, you know, so I told go if you don't usually go officially joined the generation cranks and misfits the pulp. Mark is divisive and in and avoid you know you recognize the things that are essential and liberty and things that are not as you got it. Were talking about a lot of different things. They have a shell that working out moved to St. Eli Sunday since were on the subject will talk about that officially. That's this weekend, but it's around the season generate 22nd of 47 years since Roe versus Wade was the church's role in pastoral, how often, how hard is showing here with where the summit church in Durham North Carolina also happens to be the current president of the Southern Baptist convention off the hook. What in June with his back to June 17 relevant 17 p.m. I'm writing now your county. But anyway, I appreciate your willingness to serve in and follow the Lord has for you to the life Sunday. Okay that's coming up. That's it.
Sunday some churches do a different around this time year.
The church's role is a hot button issue. You and I talked about this often, so what's the church's role what's the pastor's role. What's with our role as individual Christians in the issue of abortion.
We do at this yeah well I mean, so that the guiding principles are. We have to speak truth, whether it's popular or not we have seen for the vulnerable sample life were not a political organization.
We have to have a savvy eunuch and understanding to know, like when something is going to consume the message. There were times that Jesus backed away from really important things because he knew that we keep them away from the one thing and so I would never say likewise, I would hesitate to preach justice or tell the truth, but also know it's like right when you're engaging see people that are lost, there certainly a way that Jesus approached them. You note in John six. They thought he could end world hunger, and he could so he ran away. You know, and many came back to the hills, yet many came back preaching the gospel.
There were certain things in Luke chapter 12 is an example where were Jesus. He just at least pull back a little bit of what he could've declared regarding certain justice issues because he wanted to focus on the gospel. If somebody ever use that to say therefore we don't talk about abortion or we don't mention that because it's politically divisive. I would say will that's that's been unfaithful to your role as a priest and a prophet in the in the culture. But you know it's the I don't know Steve if there's a way to give a real strict criteria for how much is the right amount while all depends on who you're asking right always get happy about it that want to hear more right Janice, I want those people want to hear more MSI question on the air for years now say okay if it were in my churches in whatever church you go to if your church is in Nazi Germany is the Dietrich Bonhoeffer come to question its 1941's sanctity of Jewish life. Sunday enough in that context right II haven't found anybody yet willing to say yes Steve, I think one Sunday a year out of 52 to talk about the Jews being burned to death on the street is enough. Of course it isn't sold. So we have to wrestle what that the date what's the danger for a pastor when it comes to talking about abortion. The danger yeah like me like how to get or talk to you as I Pat is a pastor. The talks about it every week in his sermon, I would say that's too much pastor only mentions it once a year during · Sunday does a great job but it's only then I would say that's too little but but you should be should be teaching to the Bible. Ryan opportunities occur in the text where you could speak to something as is socially egregious and is evil is this then take the opportunity right. But should we surround account that I know there's attention there right so it's a how do pastors deal with me for and I mean you so I will retail for here because I want to imply in any way that we just like we need to get along in the society could be directly directly in opposition to it with you. It haircuts all John the Baptist hags will shut up about adultery not be people that of poorly or literally, for heaven will shut up about this, but you also let me like Lord you like Paul, when there were several major problems like abortion know him in Roman culture you're not defined.
The majority of Paul's letters talking about this. Thanks. He's mainly talking about gospel and is mainly talking to the church he's going to plant the seeds that are to do that and I think you have the very building the foundation for ethical thinking is putting putting all that and had there been an antislavery or pro-life rally.
I think Paul would gladly yield his support to it, but he knew that if that became the substance of everything that he was. It would've taken him a away from the mission.
I do not want to say that the mission means just preach gospel in the way that all the grassroot that's not true, but there is a sense in which there's a certain amount of energy and bandwidth that we get an I've gotta I've gotta preach the Bible the way that it's written yeah while this is an omelette I'm reading from above.
All right now, which is JD's most recent book about the gospel is the source of the church's renewal just just Google. Above all, you find when speaking to a specific issue a matter of faithfulness to the gospel and when is it a distraction from the gospel which is exactly to talk about Scripture is full. After all of admonitions for God's people to rebuke evil sometimes with stinging specificity. Read through the prophets, and you hear God calling out injustices of all kind towards children, women, laborers, employers, the outcast poor so on and so forth and about personal moral evil to the prophets, never tired of blasting Israel. For example, when they indulge in sexual immorality. The prophets trumpet a call for God's justice, but calls for justice without specific steps to reduce the injustice like we often see today amount to little more than sentiment. The church is often failed to speak as directly and specifically as we should in the political realm concerning issues of both injustice and morality and and and that's the deal were supposed to speak out about the same right more egregious they are. I would think the more often we would speak about it's the gospel build a proper understanding of the gospel is going to imply that we speak. Grace and truth in salt and light is not yet yeah I'm silly at AAA.
Yet, we have to be.
It's II see this as well as areas where I constantly fill little bits is also the question of giving to me is like you in light of global lostness how much giving is no sufficient let you insert it's it's I wanted to say Welch's personal claim in God because I think there is but I'm like you know what have I spoken about it to too little and via, you know, I this is day but I'm glad I'm in a council of elders at our church. Young wrestle with this together 11 members wrestle and say what is it and so we will allow little room for freedom for leaders of the Holy Spirit, but but what you're saying is exact. Arriving at the gospel is is what our commission is. But that comes without obligations to preach against societal sense even if it leads to an present growing any talk about this, and above all that that there's gotta be a straight line.
The phraseology is a straight line between the Bible and the issue that's right so that were not.
It was kinda great when I talk about policy distinctions both sides right left liberal conservative. We need to deal with the poor. Okay the question is how right dotted line. Now you're getting into distinctives there that the church really shouldn't. That's policy right but when it comes to is abortion wrong is is same-sex marriage wrong. These are these are clear teachings in Bible and and that's where we should yeah and even on that issue when it comes up when you're very clear on that.
If anybody ever since we got you think your pastors pro-choice. Unlike what no of course not. But but there's attention here that and is it fine for church members to talk to their pastors about the stuff I hope so it should be right. Yeah it is that give us some advice on how we should approach our pastors and we disagree with. I think this is really important. Getting a lot of people don't bother, but they should but they do in a loving, respectful way.
I think it's iron sharpening. I should when challenged over the years by people who God is given certain grace and insight, and third things that I just didn't realize and maybe I'd conform to much of the culture around me and sometimes I was blind to it. So by all means, your pastor is a shepherd but he is also a sheep and you need some guidance you know it's a dock and you members of the body not Hopis a bluff to receive that at the same time I think you definitely should she speak with respect to an elder to service but also an elder of the church. Also, I think you have to that.
Romans 14 thing that I keep going back to, which is is Paul was not ambivalent about these issues that he was bringing up EE had an opinion on that and in his opinion the person who was opposite him was wrong, but Paul said if if me, insisting on you conforming to my opinion on this is going to be there on the basis of our fellowship. I would rather I would rather suspend my opinion on this that I would bid them and see a breach in unity. So when someone comes to me and says I really be a pastor is a struggle with this and I'm praying for you and hope that you come see it my way.
One day I respect that when there like you know this is a deal killer and I got a leave will that better audit be about a gospel issue. Sierra yeah took to create division in the body of Christ needs to happen sometimes that is a serious serious beer Jesus pray for unity in John 17 their times. We need to split but mama do that and go against what Jesus pray John 17 I need to make sure it's over for second order issue that is essential to write.
I felt so important, why, why did you write above on the first place three minutes. Okay, above all, above all, was really a burden for the church that had just for whatever reason, I'm different. Things had seen all kinds of things that that begin to take prominence above the gospel to Paul first Corinthians says that the Gospels of first importance first importance means are there other things that are also the first impression and a aegis whether it's whether it's it's losing confidence in the power got the gospel change people or whether it's you letting secondary political issues become primary issues. There's just I be our enemy loves to take good things and substitute them for the most essential thing you know that being a part of a leading summer church. The last year we broke all the rules that you're supposed to follow growing for church. As we preached, you know they say that for a good secret from the series. It should only four weeks long and should have a catchy title to Romans off and I are going much longer chapter by chapter and we have filed its catchy title was Romans yet so but had 908 yeah cool graphic though it didn't program it had not hundred 81 professions of faith seriously so, that is, I think showing that that the Gospels, where the power is the Gospels the basis of our unity and so of all things that's going to be the thing with her for support. Yeah.
And I think that's the challenge for all of us then and as we started to go through the book in our small group last week and it is do we really put the gospel above our personal preferences and political things and and oftentimes we don't. I'm I'm I'm I'm like, as I've been around kind of the religious right for a while. I've been in the meetings have been in Sen.'s office have been all stuff were only only only a week. We deftly need to pray in all yeah we need to share the gospel. We deftly need to be evangelized right, but it's usually down the line right in and again you said this well earlier this is that this is the meaning that other things are important. They're just not the primary importance for ever talk about eternal versus temporal what last forever versus what only last in the here and now and that's where the tension is but I think we all need to be struggling with this which is why think the book is so helpful is it on my really putting the gospel above everything in my life. My relationship think I parenting my personal style my politics my budget.
All of this but actually in my interaction I join in proportion to the way we see it modeled in the New Testament about justice.last question you voting for November 5 microphone just I don't envy you baby I love you and I care about you and will be back tomorrow.
My guess is Danny Akin. All the super that on Wallingford is no one is willing to