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January 23, 2020 3:13 pm
Today, on Theology Thursday we are joined by Grant Wacker, Professor of Â Christian History at Duke Divinity School. Discussing Billy Graham and a little background on Grant Wacker!
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Everyone is time for this noble show where biblical Christianity meets the everyday issues of life in your home, at work, and even in politics. Steve is an ordinary man who believes in an extraordinary God it on a show, there's plenty of grace and truth, but no sacred cow call Steve now 86 866-34-TRUTH, or checking out online, Steve Noble Joe.com now here's your host mobile little bit of a mashup today at theology.
Dr. Wacker is here with me assert for years at Duke Divinity school there at Duke. Of course, in Durham, North Carolina, PhD from Harvard BA from Stanford and top years at Duke Divinity and has been on the show before when we talk about Billy Graham with his first book about Billy Graham and he's got another book out about Billy Graham that just came out to one soul at a time. The story of Billy Graham which is more about Billy as an individual as opposed to Billy's ministry and so all of my all my southeastern friends grant we do every Thursday to theology Thursday.
We are about four and half years. Also, Danny Aiken, the present of the seminaries on once a month and then I have other professors from the seminary on and then this week all their schedules collapsed. So I a whole size. I called our good friend Todd von Helms, who is a great one, a grandson of Duke Divinity school and in and all of a sudden he he's had said many times just full disclosure here grant he's like you get grant Wacker back on getting here and I'm like right I do. And so it's been years that welcome back.
It's been yesterday we did radio to get back now. Good five years and five is a good because it's been five years that something it's good that is on insulin. Well, you haven't changed a bit, but you've retired how long did you teach at Duke Divinity 25 years for them. I taught 15 years at that school across the highway that we don't always need to name but I was looking for a better basketball team.
Okay you want my inbox to be filled with all kind else.
Well sometimes it works sometimes it just so that the right so how did you end up at Duke is up sleep highly, highly educated and and years and 25 years at Duke.
But how do you end up there, what's your what your life story and then we'll talk about Billy Graham. Okay after graduate school. My first job was University North Carolina to grow up. I grew up in Southwest Missouri and what was then a little town called Springfield now a big town for the Springfield is them, medical Center from repute and the real attraction there is Branson, originally 40 miles away but anyway up there and then migrated onto college and graduate school and my first job was at UNC and stayed there for 15 years, Department of religious studies. Why did I go to Duke well party just change it must been my entire life in one place, but also because of the Divinity school. I wanted to teach divinity students and when I got to do got in the great fortune also teaching doctoral students in religious studies and sometimes in the college to the heart of it was the Divinity school and talking little earlier was Steve about it when I find really appealing about the divinity students is earnestness to care about my life, but it the life of the church and students of all theological stripes and yet what the art committed to uniformly is the life of the church you interesting yet because we talk about that earlier. Could you say Duke Divinity and in certain evangelical circles at all night all the bells and how often have times and often in the red flashing lights and everything and I asked you and you said how about 25% of the students at Duke Divinity.
We would call theologically conservative in the semi PepsiCo to mainstream mainline denominations. It must be a fascinating environment to be in because like here when I've done on my Masters worker southeastern. There's no blend everybody's pretty much really hard-core conservative evangelical but in that environment which our mutual friend Todd von Helms, one of the reasons he went there is to be involved in an environment that had not wasn't homogeneous but was very because it will. I think it probably helped as part of his munication skills. How do you how do you invest in people that you disagree with on some very serious issues, but what that expense been like for you all those years at Duke Divinity of loved it. You know like any job there. There are some some little little tiny quirks, but on the whole life loved it and I count myself extraordinarily fortunate to be there yeah on the mix of students in the mix of faculty is been exhilarating for me.
Like the conversations and that people disagree with me and I disagree with them and put you back up the drawing board. Sherry often you. Why do I think that it why don't actually believe these things and say yeah that's healthy yeah and but what I also find it have found that the school is not only the commonality of the concern and love for the church's institutional denominational church.
I'm not talking about your broad movements were talking about church denominations, but also on the centrality of worship. There are two worship services today in the morning at 8 AM Anglican prayers and then 11 o'clock, 40s a week standard worship service and then a revival service on Friday afternoons, so the range of styles is been valuable, but also the commitment students commitment to services.
A lot of people go to Duke because it's one of the finest institutions of higher learning in the country house a boatload of money. 60. Graham plus to go there other most of them are to be money making machines on the right outcome, but not at Duke Divinity know there is a guy go to set the world on fire in terms of financial not financially knowing something deeper derived what were some of the classes that you taught and were talking to Dr. grant Wacker, who is retired now from Duke Divinity a PhD from Harvard and a BA from Stanford, but what were the main, concentrations of what you taught over the years I taught American Christian history and I wish I could say I had taught a whole bunch more than that but that was the focus and then in a range of things within that framework, missionary and polls in America evangelicalism biography biography and culture right now I'm going back for a semester in teaching seminar on Christianity in politics, all okay because I dreamed nothing could go wrong in that class. No nodded, not at all, but we have an agreement, you have a Steve Noble type people in my class. I I just really couldn't say he would yell at you yeah yeah yeah yeah I was waiting for the lid to blow that I would find out on that ever come up on a break, but on that looking at the history of Christianity and the church in America of course has Billy Graham been on your radar screen.
Pretty much the whole of your Christian life. No interestingly no. I saw Billy Graham when I was 12 years old and that was in 1957.
You can do the arithmetic that was at his crusade in New York City and what I remember of that 12-year-old experience is how funny, I don't remember anything about the substance of the service that I do you remember last something that a lot of people don't know about that when talking to Dr. grant Wacker to talk about. Not one but two books about Billy Graham. We come back later back and Steve Noble theology Thursday today with Dr. grant Wacker server 25 years at Duke Divinity taught at various levels and retired now. We did a show several years about five years ago we were introduced through mutual friend Todd von Helms is been on the show many times entirely back on soon in the near future. Got a fabulous book coming out, but we had the opportunity to schedule kind of fell through with our friends at southeastern end and Dr. Wacker was available in 25 years but retired. I have written out two books about Dr. Billy Graham, the first one is really more about the ministry and this one called one soul at a time.
The story of Billy Graham is as much more focused on Billy as an individual you are mentioning you were at the Madison Square Garden Crusades. I'm back in the 50s now, which is really 16 weeks in a row just unbelievable.
He said the thing he noticed about Dr. Graham with humor is brief, funny yeah he was and I use adapt and actually into kindly humor in person I was with him several times in person in person.
He was very witty and you catch you off guard and it was truly funny yeah and you weren't expecting when it comes the humor that he on the platform was more corny. Just no other word for and the same jokes year after year. People knew those jokes were coming and they laughed harder every time they heard, but he refined them. The timing was perfect. He knew exactly how to come out with the yellow punchline and but it was he was extremely adept at knowing that humor could break an audience up break the ice mean to say and once the ice is broken, then that was the entry For a more serious when you saw that happen with all of his interviews that he would do. Yeah there is Dick Cavett or Johnny Carson.
Larry King was always fascinating but he was on Woody Allen show at his humor completely over the room. See Woody Allen was in over his head. Yeah, I do not insist great godly man, very funny, yet very witty and he was very quick. I don't think Woody Allen expected. I don't know I'm a drug Woody Allen, but you can use to receive from his sureties that he was surprised that he started laughing talk I mean it was genuine. The audience was with him and just is one example of what was clearly spontaneous on Graham's part is Woody Allen says you believe the whole Bible, Gramps. As you and so Allen says in sortie believe in the 10 Commandments. So then ounces now, which is your favorite commandment. And Graham said well as the father of five teenagers. I would say honor your father and mother. Well of course you know the audience is right there is a gala after lot of other interchanges. There I think very well yeah yeah and that was just it was amazing to watch him and then that's a real gift to be able to maintain that your your allegiance to the Bible. Your allegiance to the word of God. Your allegiance to the gospel.
Your allegiance to the truth of the gospel which is hard for the world to hear.
Sometimes because the exclusivity of the claim, but yet so relatable and funny and down on the level. So when you wrote the first book about Billy Graham, which is about his ministry versus writing one soul at a time which is about is mint did you feel like coming out of that first book that you you had a second one in you. Yes I write more about him less about."
The ministry that's exactly right in the first one is actually much about America and I that time I believed and still do that he helped create American culture. But the American culture. Greed helped greet him to. It was an interaction and you can't understand Graham and to some extent you can't understand modern America without them in this book I've tried to look at just the story of the man and my theme was how would he tell his own story and obviously I went in some that's not exactly what happened because sometimes I said more than he would've said, and sometimes less in reference to the more I would bring in some it is stored in their achievements which he wouldn't do on the right course and then also some the defects is ministering the mistakes and sometimes outsiders can see those things better person on the other side first book was just call America's pastor Billy Graham in the shaping of the nation yeah yeah yeah just got a 30,000 foot look at all ministering the phenomenon this and I try to bring it right out on the ground and look at some things on some things that I mentioned but don't dwell on any I love lemon cake. For example, he was a habitual nailbiter. He was an insomniac terrible insomniac from early into the end of his life he had these personal traits are interesting but interesting is not the same as important to you. I don't deal with that kind of thing, but what I do try to focus on our ways that he would've told his own story. What he thought was important. So what how you boil it down to music try to capture one of the most iconic men ever walked the face of the planet. That's an overstatement, especially in the context of religion in general and Christianity specifically.
But what what would you say you ended up focusing on right great question you really asked good questions right on the right to the heart of it.
Yeah. Very fine editor named David Bratt's and Erdman's and he has the same question and so together we came to the idea of creating not chapters but seems book is 54 scenes and when I tried to do. Steve is find momentous episodes or scenes that illumine the rest of his life. What's really significant here so I go back to the New York Crusade is an example how does that New York Crusade illumine so much else in here.
You see, Graham exploiting in the good sense of the word exploiting the media masterfully all yeah television, radio advertisements on buses and he was so shrewd about this dyad people helping helping course but he took a minimalist approach to a lot of the advertising and so you would see a poster on a bus that would simply say here Billy what you see having pills with what is really what yet what are we talking about what we may do so, they gladly asked question yeah and is view of it was like these, it is not like advertising Cadillac.
You don't have to say much about Satan, Cadillac, Cadillac yeah yeah so so that scene of what he did in New York and then the relentless absolutely relentless concern for bringing people to Christ.
The decision cards. That's what it was all about is the decision cards and hand new course and many people make decisions in the heart one sign a culture but symbolically bring that decision forward and he not really said that every one of his sermons ultimately was about John 316 always got yeah and one more thing really important is that he said I preach for birdie. I wanted people to make a decision up or down second so you know program is called outward to see our decision right then and now I've done a lot of work in the past with Greg Laurie who was bent on Billy board for years and later in built Billy Crusade ministry. The last five or six years.
He would actually Greg very gifted in taking going on out in the world what's going on in pop culture and bringing that into a gospel message so he would actually help Billy towards the end but Greg says the same thing every time I preach and preaching for a decision. Guy got down his mentor as mentor was Billy Graham want to talk about Hannah spiritual side of what do we put we say okay that's all God what we say this is billing the way God made him want to talk about that and had just told took on and also his preaching change over time and use of the Old Testament there on that talking to Dr. Grant Lacher about Billy Graham magazine over the seasonal show theology Thursday talking to one of our Christian brothers from the other side of the tracks, look at it here in Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill is where the Raleigh side, but you are a professor, for 25 years at Duke Divinity, which is over there in the Duke area, which is, like the opposite side of the track. That's the way we operate in the triad and then there's since there's an unholy Trinity going on. We been seems to override the Tar Heels and the way I do that well, but I moved to carry so now you have gone all members of the Trinity working with me.
Yeah, it's good to have all three of you this to are one but that Dr. Wacker wrote several years ago he wrote a book called America's Pastor Billy Graham in the shaping of a nation which is really more about the ministry of Billy Graham and Annette McKenna phenomenon in the newer book is called one soul at a time.
The story of Billy Graham which is deftly focused on Billy the person so how you gather the information for this because he preached. We know that he preached a lot. There's a gazillion books to talk about Graham public appearances interactions with world leaders, but you really trying to capture who this guy is kind of behind the façade, if you can use that word behind the well-known ministry guy where you go by like where you pull from. Initially was discouraging because it is so overwhelming saying, and I was like trying to write a book about Abraham Lincoln, FDR, something just fast so you gotta make choices in very early on, you decide you have to make choices and make choices among other biographers because each everybody has their own take. I do, and what kind of media going to look at work on record. So I had to make some choices in the choice I tried to make early on is the differences I mentioned earlier between what's important and what's interesting some very fine books are about what's interesting about her and all personal anecdotes and stuff that I wanted look at what's important in my important my notion was what had lasting impact on the culture both in the US and internationally, and meet maybe later. I hope we can talk about this. The international Graham possibly more important American grant will that's where you make an Abraham Lincoln, but Abraham Lincoln really only operated in the American rights right FDR more than that Yahoo does not matter presence more than that, but nobody I don't think do you think there's been a single individual.
In the last thousand years that has had the kind of favor and acceptance around the world Billy Graham. No Protestant individuals. Yeah, I think John Paul II's Ya certainly routed to yeah but other than John Paul II, nobody in this BME Graham started traveling internationally in the 1940s that the very beginning very young man but the number of international visits and Crusade steadily grew and by the 1970s I guess I have to quantify this, but my guess is the majority of his public opinion. Appearances were international he cared about the global gospel.
Yeah, and didn't wanted to be an American gospel now. Sometimes when he got overseas. They still saw it as an American gospel sure can ever right right you can ever divest yourself of your but he said he certainly tried to make it a universal gospel would have been the comfortable with this kind of question. Where I go. Okay, how much of this is the way built. Billy Graham wasn't the person versus just what God decided to do it that make sense know they'll keep going. I hung out so much of Billy Graham's clinical success impact is based on its unique blend of character traits what he would.
He was concerned about versus just always purchase can affect pick the guy up and use, but there's some aspects about Billy Graham that made him particularly usable. Yeah, and your and Steve you're raising the larger theological question, how do we deal theologically Graham story and that's you know that's another book that that's another book I will cease. I'll say straight up that I tried to write story for other historians, but at the same time. My own conviction is that he was God's person for the hour.
Just as maybe all of us are. We hope that one way or another. Yeah got sovereignty at night the Lord for don't try to figure it all out that's exactly so so you mentioned that you can unpack this in terms of scene Jennings for his life and how many in the book 54. The credit been hundred 54 he's earlier 2054 or you you you are, but as I I right action.
I just wrote the story almost spontaneously. My daughter was a cabin in the mountains of Georgia. I went down the cabin and I just start writing and learned a lot. All right already knew.
Yeah. And so I started running the story and then after I'd written that story.
Then I went back and seemed to me that it kind of divided itself into natural segments. I was going to have to say is a chronological yeah yeah it is not strict. Remember who we were running in the present, but generally it's chronological.
And so in that's difficult. It's very difficult to manage that as a historian. So, for example, Graham and race keeps coming up and so early events I had.
I tried to tell in their own terms. And then later on this issue comes up again.
Well, in an Graham's case to become especially complicated because he dealt with a lot of things at once. He was not a Utah one track man running at any given time. He's on the radio and television and preaching, taking a lot of different issues and being asked about a lot of dandies playing golf with presidents to him. He is also a home man honey has five kids and a strong marriage and family life says all these things are going on all at once. What we going to pick out and so that's where I had to make some decisions as to what I thought he thought let's focus on the race part for a while. Okay you mentioned this before on the brakes, only a Facebook like here.
It was a he noticed that there at the 16 weeks of Crusades at Madison Square Garden in New York City that it was particular white.
It was an and that bugged.
It was in the beginning was overwhelmingly white and he recognized early on that for some wrong with this and so he another story, but he had already invited a Christian missionary alliance pastor named Howard Jones to join him, not as an associate at that time. Later on terms became associate, but at that time just to join him sit on the platform and then advise what can we do about this and Joan said everything so many words he said everything about this Crusade is white.
Everybody in the platforms white all the singers are white, all the people are white so you have to take your message to where is he said that time the Blacks are. You go to them and are you go to us and that's exactly what Graham did. He took his crusade into Harlem and into predominantly African-American sections of Brooklyn and Queens and then growing the team. Sorry, that's one thing he did. Secondly it is. He invited Martin Luther King to print when was that March 18 oh nice it was occurring on Saturday.
Was it like I misspoke and misspoke July 18. Maybe in 1700 don't have to check it out what it was at the New York City Crusade all you got that early in the 1950, 1957 and King was criticized, Graham received venomous criticism, especially from southern fundamentalist now, I should say we don't want to glorify this event came came his prayer was very tempered. I would say he did not give a complete endorsement to Graham although he'd at least came and prayed in the same time Graham's response I see was tempered. He did not give a roundhouse embrace of King in these these men. There is a very complicated relationship so I don't want it, see it all through roseate glasses meetings are human beings were trying to do other terribly difficult and difference between them, thinking focus on the social justice parting ramps over focused on changing the heart things are and then you'll eventually change society at yeah and it is. It took time to rate what about in the 60s and Graham's attention there that he should've been more outspoken with the civil rights movement and all of that so was that a significant part of who he was briefly and as I mentioned earlier, it was nonlinear development. He grew from a strictly segregationist point of view in the 40s early 50s. See, was one of the handsome parts of his career in the early 50s he met before Brown versus Board of Education.
He made a decision. He would no longer preach to segregated audiences and he caught a lot of recess fosters tremendous resistance and criticism, but he did it in the late 50s and into baby the early 60s he really staked out a progressive position. The mid 60s. He stepped back as is no way to get around and it was not his commitment to race racial integration, but rather his fear of social turmoil. Yeah he stepped back he became worried about what King was in the 70s we have another step you are staying in this.
I think modern pastors have the same challenges do I want to I have to be concerned that I'm getting mixed up with something that will be that only one point racially quality important absolute then more important ultimately you know you know so talking to Dr. Grant Wacker today who taught for 25 years at Duke Divinity. Wally got his BA from Hanford and a PhD from Harvard so you know where were basically twin giants intellectually, which is a joke and me being ridiculous and I really appreciate you driving up up from carry the day in and being on the show appreciate Todd on Helms, our mutual friend for reminding me about you and and praise the Lord that you get in here were talking about Grant's most recent book is about Billy Graham, one soul at a time.
The story of Billy Graham. I put the links up on Facebook live but if you just google you'll find it.
I which is a follow-up to his first book about Billy called America's pastor Billy Graham in the shaping of the nation which is really looking at the ministry and the impact this when looking at Billy Graham, the man and I know one thing you really wanted to talk about was his character, so I mean I think character and Billy Graham. Of course, think of the Modesto manifesto and they realize okay God's doing something crazy here and in we we need to be as much as is humanly possible with God's aid.
Above reproach, never to be alone with a woman of RESTRICTION how he traveled, knocking him money. All I can stop but it seems like he was a man of really amazing character.
Do we do we do we are. We over the top hyperbole with that or what did you learn what you think about Billy Graham's character for the two things. One is I started talk about his personal humility, and the second is the life of personal property and as you meant mentioned chastity within marriage. Any hint any hint of sexual immorality and keeping his financial affairs above board.
Everything audited and not in this way to Kim's gums. I was picking fights avoid fights was one of the want one of his main goals. The press sometimes overlook that they got fixated on on the issue of absolutes.
Sexual morality and to some extent the financial integrity.
But he also had very strong conviction about not needlessly going around picking fights.
It was a good diet. A lot of hills absolute just the gospel absolutely unique and actually there there's almost no evidence of Graham ever having a theological debate just I just wasn't his nature. We want to do is preach the gospel in any case, it is fine to have people out there who want to debate you. But that's not me. That was in his call yeah is calling you made a mistake tomorrow ago I spoke of chastity within marriage I mean chastity until marriage or job. But then I'll be reignited okay. I don't know I don't not know how to get that guy and he did that we know by time while the so anyway it yet and I don't know of anyone who is seriously charged with violating any of these principles, which is especially remarkable given the spiritual target he had on his head absolute right now you know most of us are knocking to get the attention from Satan himself, Billy Graham.
What he did and it's and it's crazy to think in us and how long would you say his evangelistic career was 50 years, 60, 60 years that what you just said nobody could really make a credible charge on the financial side of the sexual side in and that is mind-boggling and is is I'm renting approach inclusive approach.
Bring as many people as possible within the range of the gospel and then then you can draw some theological distinction because all of that number. How many people that he preached to over that 60 very interesting question. He preached live I to I two 77 million in person in person, now the Graham organizational take hundred and 85 million and that's fudging things a bit, yet the difference during the 77 in the 185 is that live satellite feed got okay yeah simulcast location yeah but it be hard to find anyone else who's preaching seven I got okay there were in the minutia of their yeah yeah I mean and the more think was 56 countries that he actually put his feet down on and just the stamina took an all of that. Steve above reproach and this woman thinks he was getting at. Let's go back to the question of not being alone with woman Dr. your family, the princes really exaggerated that I mean what he's trying to say. Use your common sense yeah I don't. Don't you know it's a candlelight dinner in Paris right with a woman is not your wife, friend. That's what he's getting. Yeah, and there's no criticism can I get humility part though that's that was parked.
It most struck me is how frequently he was willing to apologize and by all evidence he meant it. Sometimes apology could just be a tactic and it wasn't. I mean it really came up for him is honestly and he only saw himself as a vessel again. Again, he said, and he said to me-the times are with them. I have no idea, no idea why God chose me anything.
I'm just a farm kid from North Carolina Carolina right but somehow, for some reason he chose me to do this important work. Now I never minimize the importance of the work and a lot of people say aw shucks, it wasn't all that afford that he knew he knew he knew who he was. He knew the power he had, but he also immediately said I am simply the person God happen to chew not explain that level of humility.
Can you let me know. Is that what is that the kind of the most interesting thread as you wrote out these 50+ scenes from his life was that the thing that was most fascinating to you yet all the accolades all the attention that clearly one of the most well-known people in history the world and in and any still that humble.
Yeah then I want to put roseate Glass see the shirt rose MA there were times when perfect :-) well I beat being right now there are more than 1.1 million photographs of him and the Graham archives. Well, you don't knew he was MET, dimples, rebels, of course, but to me he knew that he was handsome, all right, and he knew how that worked with with the media and so we we have these human very human trait to come out but on balance is just striking the way.
He approached people and this I say with my wife and I visited with him four times and just immediately sensed what was all over the circumstances around his associates and his sister arrange for us to visit with him and leading up to the first book was yeah yeah ha and I said he lives on a mountain very lived on Maui country like Mount Vernon and for yeah I'd say that these are mountaintop experiences in both senses of the. In fact, as we left. We tried to write down everything that you said just so I wouldn't forget. But I am not of this was orchestrated many is just who he was and you going to Billy Graham's house and he's just it.
Would you like a Coke.
That's exactly actually on his case, it was Ice-T and he was far more interested in talking to my wife that he was talking to me. I mean anyone talk about Tar Heel basketball and that time we happen to live in Chapel Hill and I taught at Duke and he said if you teach it to be living in Chapel Hill this night and puffed some crisis of conscience here in me. He was so down-home and I just tell one story quickly that I think makes the point when we first saw him, his aide said Billy Grant is writing a book about you and he instantly said why that took me back and so I said you've done some important things and then he said no.
The Lord has done important things through me and that was totally genuine. Absently Jenny that was in a this answers can appear in a book right that was just Billy Graham but what struck me. Steve is that he didn't disparage the work.
He didn't deny right on and pray because that would be denying God's work till I got it so heat he embraced. He is a saint. He owned the complement at the same time he turned it and you have to be there mean any sin he could say all well. He was just following you know you know you can tell that's genuine you can absent what what so from from what your experience in your time with him and your research and from the book one soul at a time. I'm here with Dr. Grant, Wacker, what would you suggest a lesser couple things that Billy will have about a minute that we should really try to emulate easily his integrity, spiritual integrity and the personal integrity that he maintained in the way he lived his life when he died, Indian theologian from India made the comment said his message was his life and I thought that brilliantly captured the entire store.
Talk about and I hear James out there somewhere saying you show me your faith by what you say and I'll show you my faith by what I do and you look at the integrity of life and not perfect but well beyond what most of us human beings, even followers of Christ would achieve, and that you and you cannot you can't argue with his integrity. Therefore, how can you possibly argue with the gospellers I he lived 99 years.
There were a lot of times he had a lot of chances, so I go to mess up just as many did make mistakes and course at different times and places, email mistakes, but he was the first to say so, how's Billy rubbed off on you, it's been a check heat he provided for me. A model of how I would want to live my life in terms of integrity and honesty spiritual discipline spent the first half hour of every day reading his Bible yeah totally real.
The real deal. I love that I could've been the title.
Yeah, that was raise my dad always you say when he meets Emily.
That's genuine and that what you think so-and-so is the real that's actually my dad at dinner with Billy Graham. One was to go Texas might have worked LBJ's TV station really came down I get a chance interviewing them to dinner with them in a morass of awake spiritually that what would you think about Billy Graham.
My dad would get the same there was exactly what… Grant Wacker so great to see you.
Thanks for coming in here. It's great to talk about this. I wish we had more time, one soul at a time in the name of the book the story of Billy Graham, one soul at a time by Dr. Grant Wacker.
This is seasonal on the sea, so will be back tomorrow talk about a lot of things going and always used to say that never forward