Dealing with Domestic Abuse

Everyone who saw the noble show where biblical Christianity meets the everyday issues of life in your home, at work, and even in politics. Steve is an ordinary man who believes in an extraordinary God it on a show, there's plenty of grace and lots of tree but no sacred 634 three 866-34-TRUTH or checking out online noble show.com now here's your host noble family of someone domestic abuse is about 90% female and 10% males were not leaving any man out. If you happen to be. Unfortunately that situation. One question is what is it look like a lot of us just going to say well maybe somebody yells a lot and gets physical but there's a whole lot more to it and as we talked about this many times on the show which we should and will continue to do so.

I reference something that that my friend Joy Forrest got got got me connected with, which is called the power and control wheel which begins to show you ladies, if you're already down this road. Sadly, a lot of this might sound familiar, but intimidation, emotional abuse, isolation, minimizing, denying and blaming using the children economic abuse male privilege coercion and threats, whether it's physical violence, sexual violence and and just all those different factors that go into what domestic abuse looks like it's running rampant. We talk about the life issue all the time. As we should, because about almost about the same. It's about 30 to 40% of women in America will have an abortion. By the time they turn 40. And that's something that gets a lot of attention, but domestic abuse, sadly, does not.

Unless of course you're part of it and even then oftentimes it doesn't come out of the closet and that continues to happen in the dark. And that's obviously a problem and so Joy Forrest is the founder of called the peace ministry. She's been on the show many times and so she's with us here today in the studio as well as Pastor Andre turn time you're going talk to him and find out his story.

He's also on the board and never can be hearing from a pastor biblical counselor Chris Bowles who will be calling in a little bit and will talk to him as well because there's a couple of conferences coming up that called the pieces doing here in Raleigh that's on April 3 and fourth for everybody but April 2. In particular, which will have a little bit of a focus today a little bit more of a focus on pastors and ministry leaders because that's the front line art should be the front line. Oftentimes, it is not a Joy and Andrea welcomed the show. Good to see again, thanks for being here.

Thank you state thank you for having us there welcome so Joy cannot help us understand the problem from a church perspective. I think we all understand the problem. In general, but from a church perspective.

We talked about this many times over the years. What is the problem was the church doing what is it not doing and what should it do I think that the church doesn't understand because I as a former victim. I can tell you that most of us don't come out and tell people handy and abuse their think we come forward as confused and wondering what's wrong in our marriage. We know something's wrong, that we might not ever put the label abuse on it. For one thing, and in you know when a couple shows up to a pastor for marital problems they going to treat it like a marital problem but that's not what domestic abuse is it's an oppression problem and so Lynn pastors don't understand what they're looking at. They can't deal with it effectively. Yeah. And so, whether it's this issue.

Of course, over the years in the Catholic Church. In particular, but this happened in the southern Baptist convention of the last couple years.

You hear about sexual abuse, which is generally about young people, but that we don't really this one doesn't come out of the closet very much like I said, unless you're actually a part of it. If your man is abusing your wife will talk about that but you certainly should know you do know what you're doing and and women that are involved in are the victims of course no but largely the church. Why do you think we struggle with every church is bad about that but most churches are probably his negligent is that an okay word I don't know if I would go there anymore. I used to think it was extremely negligent. I thought it was heartless. You know that's just the way it seemed because what I've seen so many women I work with, you know, hundreds of women at this point and so many that underwent church discipline when they went forward. But what I understand now is that the effects of trauma.

Most of the women that we work with have some form of traumatic stress, and so they don't present very well, but abusers can present beautifully. They can look like their repentant even if they're caught really commit to a small portion of it and they will be so repentant by N-word only, and said then the church is like what's wrong with you. He's repenting and so not understanding what true repentance looks like it makes a difference and so is by definition are manipulative, very manipulative, and so I think that there just that had the wool pulled over their eyes. The church has. And just like us, you know those of us who have been victimized. I didn't recognize it as abuse.

So how, why would I expect the church to recognize it. So ignorance might be a better word, yes, and not necessarily an ugly way, but just is just a reality to the fact under the me pull you in here near pastor shepherds well church in Raleigh and also on the board at that called the PSO. So, from your perspective and I know part of your perspective is is historical as well from your own background, but so cannot fold that into how you got involved with called a piece and I are on the board and from a pastoral perspective how you can approach this issue of domestic abuse. Fortunately part of my training and education was to do a stretch with urban ministry ministry and I was connected with interest, which is a domestic violence shelter and in the process of doing that I actually saw people that were walking through a life that I had seen and once I graduated I was still seeking for the ways to impact and do something in that area when I met Joy and she described what cold piece was doing and so I've been driven for that. I agree that a lot of it is ignorance, but I think it is. It is a politeness of the church and we as pastors and and lay people that are really interested in ministry don't want to get in the people's business. They think it's a private matter and they don't understand how this matter will spill over into so many other areas. If you're not speaking to it, then you're almost condoning it meant if men aren't standing up specifically sure and it looks like it's all right this is a good old boy network and you just don't know who to trust in those situations and asked what I find that a lot of women don't know who to trust you say they've been covering their husbands and so they don't expose what they're doing in hopes that he's going to turn it around.

It was a bad day and as a result of covering they they basically allow that practice to keep you out of enabling the right and then when they when it's time to make him avoid where pressed to the point where they can't do anything else they say something and then people don't believe you will respond in a way that they think because he was just great. Yesterday yeah rascally you and you mentioned that to Joy that the utmost abusers are master manipulators and they cover very well and in the oftentimes the wife or the one being abuse looks like the one that's OtterBox yeah there because are traumatized and even that you know you are talking about for the way that they enable it's not even enabling just a trauma response.

You were talking about domestic abuse today were asking to be talking to pastor counselor for smalls this is Steve Noble the Steve Noble show talk about called to peace ministries is an important event talking about something that we should all be talking about often. That's domestic, whether it's physical, emotional, mental, sexual, financial Corp., control, coercion, it's always about power and control and so there's a lot of different options there. Sadly, when it comes to domestic abuse. It's not just the black I am the bruised ribs okay there's a whole lot more to it than that. And the reason that we have talked about it every year on the show is because of Joy Forrest is the founder of called the peace ministries and I remember how we met to do dog need to get on here and yes I did talk to. Praise the Lord for so so thank you for doing that us of joy. Here, the founder called peace ministries as well as Pastor Andre turn China's here and then Chris Volz is a pastor in a difficult counselor and the author of the heart of domestic abuse is going to be joining us as well. A minute joint writ just remind people some people that have been listening for a while will remember you and you been on several times. We just got a reminder why you're so passionate about. Well when I was 14 I met a young man who I was starting dating and by the time I graduated from college. We were still dating. I had seen maybe some red flags that he was abused as a child and are his mother was being abused and he was abused himself and he hated it so I thought I didn't have a thing to worry about. He proclaimed Christianity in Jesus and so I thought well God have to bless it.

So we got married and within it wasn't physically abusive in the beginning that within three years. It became that way and that there was a lot of intimidation I lived in constant fear and during our marriage, which lasted 15 years. I reached out to I count 12 different pastors and counselors for help and nobody knew how to deal with Chris.

I wasn't that I say I'm being abuse. When I went N but nobody even I would say he's angry they wouldn't separate us. They didn't know how to ask the right questions to get to the bottom of it and then I was afraid to tell the whole truth, and so over the years, those attempts to go for counseling and trying to get help, which is so frustrating.

Finally I didn't believe in divorce, but it got so physically abusive towards the end that I thought if I didn't get out. I would not live so I remember telling God. Lord, if you help me live through this. Help other women in this kind of situation and he kinda has held me to it because as soon as I got out I had other people ask me what will. How did you do that you know they they hear your story and then they start coming out of the woodwork and so I ended up getting a job and this was a God thing at a domestic violence shelter seen Christian women walking in the door sandlot is my pastor care more about my marriage that my life right you mentioned that so so many time always do that. We approach this that some marriage divorce issue as opposed to being abuse issue right away if you can't get a divorce.

Call the cop when it will what are you talking worse. Right now we have a dangerous situation for a lot of people. Whether it's physical, mental, emotional, never the case may be.

And so then you have eventually got your local counseling degree right yes I got that degree in biblical counseling and began began church counseling and would see the way that it was being counseled even though I was trying to be involved. I hadn't really worked through a situation like that didn't know how that would look if we were going to make it work and I still love the idea marriage didn't want see people divorce so actually got involved in counseling situations where they were working on reconciliation and doing it. Trying to do at the Safeway separating people but I would still hear counsel coming out of other counselors mouth saying why you gotta submit to him as long as he's not asking you to sin, and what that does is it feeds some they abuse her sense of entitlement. So again, all of these things combined disk, a name such a heart and a passion to help churches better understand so that we can help women who are being oppressed in their homes and Pastor Andre Pastor Andre turn times here with us who's from Sheppard well church in the Raleigh, but so as as she impacts all this and now you're on the board at that called to peace. This all this is all kind of fit well into a pastoral perspective like this should be a normal part. Unfortunately of a pastor's role in the church of the church's role in the community and its own body, especially it should fit naturally. Pastors are the first line of defense for first responders in many cases people that are in trouble, come to their pastor just seeking help and unfortunately we don't always identify it. You know, we have this idea that we are leaving sheet. There might be some big sheet might be some fluffy sheet might be some of different colors, even some sheepdog we know what they are.

Do you is in there, but when a wolf in sheep clothing appears. It presents a totally different atmosphere and it requires us to boldly get into someone's business. Things that are supposedly behind doors and that doesn't go well. Often the we are supposed to be hold people's confidence and a lot of times abuses will work that to their advantage know they know that you're not supposed to say anything. So if you do right out of line so there is so they really late yet still manipulate the situation and and to be honest that's one of the big things about this conference that's coming up on April 3 and four is to help the pastors and those lay leaders and those that are interested in helping people to come through abuse, to understand that the practice of it, because it does affect and and and connect into so many other areas that we can't actually fit it into a pastoral role.

We need to fit it into a pastoral role of police issue a legal issue.

Counseling issues and understand that it has to be work together as a team that's the other part that I really appreciate about the work that called peace does along with Chris moles is that we are pushing a team effort collaborative cooperative. You is a different way you want me to see that because we mention a comfort so to get that information or put the links up on Facebook life right now. So if you go to the Steve Noble show Facebook page you can see it there or just got a call to peace.org that's T0 okay called to peace.org. Click on the events banner up top you see it building a churchwide coordinated response to domestic abuse that's on April 2 and that's a fast a pastoral and ministry leaders focus and then the next two days. April 3 and fourth wisdom calls wise responses to domestic abuse and course of control in the church.

That's for everybody but yet that that's what you're talking up the sky a coordinated response.

You got laypeople. He got pastors you ministries like called to peace and all that has to work together Julian in working to bring Chris up after the break. So Chris, what choice do you have Chris back to the great life but that's really important is that so what have you seen the fruit of that is you guys been working on this for the years that that market we need to come to come together and have a native effort, absolutely just because of the again we mentioned it so many times, manipulative nature of abusers and you know there just are so many facets and you can't have. You cannot bring the men together for marital counseling that does not work.

We know that it doesn't. Not only does it not work, but it makes things so much worse. You and you are on probably endangering a victim or when you do that so now and again.

It's so's the word I'm looking for Jesus. It's very under the under the radar.

So people are.

It's so hard to recognize you said this is where having advocates can really make a difference in we called the base have an advocacy training program that we started, and it's making a huge difference when an advocate can go in because he just imagine you got this traumatized woman who's kind of maybe sounds irrational and goes and talks to the pastor and then the rational sounding abuser comes in Jacuzzi to believe if you got an advocate who can sit down with her and talk to her and get her story and ceded to snatch our pattern, then it makes a huge difference in how the whole thing's going to be approached and at this point I called the piece you're seeing such a massive increase in reaching out to what you say you through a number of the earlier when they're on break 300% growth in the last two years and normally really say well that's awesome. It's not what it is because at least there reaching out to talk faster. Counselor Chris moles only come back so this is Steve Noble talking about domestic abuse. Today, one in three women in general will. But one of the women in the church. This is a pervasive issue just on Facebook live today. Several people been sharing their stories. I've gotten private messages on Facebook before because people know that I know a lot of people I'm connected with a lot of different ministries and occasionally people say hey here's a situation trying out some friends or whatever the case may be, and I and appointing them to joy for us is the founder of called the piece ministries because this is all over the place were very aware of the abortion industry were very aware those numbers were 60 million and counting were about still about a million a year were at about 18,000 a week out of those numbers come right out of me like I'm breathing because I've been talking about it in such a massive issue, but domestic abuse. Same thing in the church.

One out of four, one out of three women and about 30%, 30% excise 40% women will have an abortion, but by the time they turn 40. So this is a massive problem that unfortunately doesn't get anywhere near the attention that should which is why were always great and grateful to have Joy Forrest and hear what this is the founder called the piece ministries Andre turn team pastor Andres here as well in the Chris moles, who I'm going to take off of hold.

Chris was beginning to wonder Chris if you are still on a radio show today, but I appreciate your patience and it's great to have you back on where to really appreciate you coming to town in helping out joy and called the piece ministries. It's great to have you back on. How are you going to write the paper out of a great joy beyond what you got to look forward to cover downtown and help Delaware and excited to have you here, that's April 2 is the pastoral and ministry leaders event in the in the in the third and the fourth is for everybody else. And so you can get that information called to peace.org just click on the events banner at the top called CAL LED to peace Tito peace.org plus we have the links up on Facebook live right now but Chris Stout tells a little about how you got into this arena have been your book as well. The heart of domestic abuse how you're very well known in this arena and how did you come to get into it and then I want to talk to you about the problem today and kinda get your reflection because you been listening way been on hold and also want to talk to you about ministering to the abuser because my first inclination is not to think of them at all these not in any kind of a loving way right yeah that's actually how I got drawn to work. I was already in pastoral ministry at that point after the pastoral ministry for 20 years and was looking for opportunities to engage the community in began working part-time and correct and just as an educator. Through our local day reporting center in one thing led to another and I was invited in to a batterer intervention program that was a court order intervention program for men who work, convicted of domestic violence crime at the same time I was doing my master the biblical counseling in the world just lurched together perfectly. But one thing I discovered early on was that there was little to no material produced from a conservative Christian perspective. And so I just immersed myself for the work at we fell in love with the work especially like a victim advocate and thought of the real gospel opportunity is of course working specifically with perpetrators which I was going to lend itself to the unique perspective that's where the booking permit was birthed out of my master thief.

The and though the work that I was doing a correction and then what about the just. We been talking in a night like you mentioned and I heard some of this but we been talking since the start of the show about the church's response. Whether it's ignorance and I don't mean that in an ugly way just kind of trying to get our hands around Wyatt's the church's response was so kind of anemic or we can again I'm not trying to be a church pastor here, but speak to that aspect of this reality. Sure, I think one thing to be completely on its logic with church anemic but socially social problem that the body figured out. I really believe I think from the top down, there's a very poor response when it comes to violence against women, in particular the church to happen to be an institution that is fall into that same trap. I do think in many cultural responses we are decades behind. Sometimes the culture and court abuses been one of those characteristics are more sinister side of the more unfortunate than full click at five. I think we have edited asleep to hide her hip and other war to not engage good resources to inadvertently I think sometimes and sometimes overtly proposed department at Berkeley blame victims for the work and strike really for you go over the theology to our comfort level could remain good to get yelled at such and such an important thought that we all need to wrestle it. So in terms of kind of engaging the church in an and enabling people and training in helping people come to talk about. That is because we are talking about before the break. Kind of a a group effort. You got lay leaders and pastors you got all kinds of people about people like Joy called the piece to talk about the need to kinda train all that up and start to equip ourselves to get out there and deal with this more effectively.

Yeah so I'm a big believer in team-based approach or at all and going back mentality to type of response because abuse is such a complex issue. I baked weekend fishing with a fake character you know if you've ever done that you will bubble live right on Middleburg that and there's so many complexities to this problem that will require more than one perspective. So I I love counseling. I want counseling to be part of the perspective but it's not the only we need education. I love education, but it's not the only perspective I love shepherding the pastor is not the only perspective. And so it's important to have multidisciplinary approaches that were actually comforting victim and confronting if you recall as you are you talking about the listening in on your conversation a little bit of manipulation and coercion are so key to the work that without somebody watching my blind spot. I I'm pretty prone to getting stuck in the same would be true for Joliet for Andre as long as the three of us up in the work we still know that we are skeptical to blind spot.

That's why support to have other team members.

Other people looking over our shoulder. That's like church-based training is helpful in multiple layers, I think. First, we need awareness training we have to know the dynamics that impact we also need some specialist of people in our community. Whether our local church or another local church that's really taking the time to take an advocacy course like what call defeat offers or to go through a local intervention program like what I do and to really grow in our spot again will the counselor educators advocate pastors all working together, not to mention the criminal side. If we cross that line or the law enforcement, judges and criminal faith that you so to speak to that joy because I know he's talking about the training who should get train because he got a lot of different players here. You got I think Christian maturity matters. I think it would. I think I would be. I think it would matter based on whether they've actually been abused before or not you're going to come from a unique perspective there, so to speak to people, all of you just in terms of who should be a part of this particular type of training that you guys are doing in April yeah well I think that authority like that. Now you go and I thought you wanted to say something I was gonna say I heard you start to say something so I'll stop. I think the four beer problem from orbit toward the bar while I locked work with to work. I do think that what what happened.

April 2 34 should be open to everyone, because were all coming at different level. So to me the entire church should be aware of the problem so that we can effectively practice one another, but there are going to be the poor response to the fact very scriptural like you to forgive. Think of Galatians chapter 6 and I use that passage allotted by a computer confrontation. Trading right if anybody caught the thin who are spiritual restore such a one with all gentleness and don't be tempted in the same way with me right back. If only all you gotta be gentle, but understand that God will be box person will reap what they so I'm not so worried about the Consequences They Will Take Pl., God offered over that I'm worried about giving truth is it affecting or connecting the consequences if under authority figure writer think of spiritually mature person to be gauged at the higher level. I do think survivors make great advocate, but as Joy could tell you I think it's a problem with survivors jumped in the add to 50 without first dropping it to Jesus. He lay that's a great point Joy would speak to that because like how long did it take from you escaping that situation at home till he started to getting your volunteering, but then when you're actually bleeding in counseling because I think that's a really plain yeah and I think the Lord did a great healing work in my life in a in and it took about 3 to 5 years sounding because II had severe PTSD really and had to took time to get over that. It took time to twist all the lies I'd come to believe because that's what happens is your thinking get so warped you do that when I look back at my journal.

I think wow I can't believe I thought that way but I did and it's like very gradual brain washing that occurs, it's kinda like being indoctrinated into a cult so your inking changes in that takes a long time to an twist on and so I think that you know we want survivors to come. We'd love to see you know any kind of people helper people who love survivors and want to help, and we would even know welcome those who are going to work with perpetrators as well.

Chris and John Holder talking to Chris.

Most of the pastor, counselor and author also have a pastor turn times in here and we got you a forest is the founder called peace ministries and another friend on Facebook just said. I felt like this was something I deserved is created that may sound which is echoing what you just said yes you going for it, but don't give users the one to a claim will be right for you. Talking about domestic today with our friends from called joy forest is here and hundred turn times. Here's a pastor as well.

Chris Bowles is a pastor in biblical counselor is on hold and will bring him back in the conversation a second. I do want to remind you something is an opportunity I mentioned last week, but I have brought up since. In terms of marriage in general. One of the best things you can do for your marriage is to get a tuneup so to get as much biblical teaching and leadership on that.

I don't know joy if you've been through Danny Aikins teaching on marriage and family, but I broke them into this and so were doing kind of a miniconference.

It's a Friday night and Saturday morning coming up at the end of the month Danny Aikins, a phenomenal teacher. The president here in southeastern. He's really really good on the marriage issue has got several different sessions that he does.

It's very very powerful. My wife and I been through it ourselves and you need to come to Scripture proof your marriage. We have to. Don't ever think that your marriage is not susceptible to all kinds of problems.

One Puritan writer once said the seed of every sin exists in every human heart.

So nobody is completely out of the realm of having things go really south of marriage. So to get more information on the make it really easy.

Just text the word marriage okay it's on you to do if you don't how to do that could teenager to do for you but text the word marriage to 66866 and I will just email you the information. Okay, it's nice and easy that March 27 and 28. But on the subject. Today I thought I should probably mention that because it's such an important topic, marriage, and were talking about the confines of marriage when it comes to domestic abuse of just text the word marriage to 66866 and will send it information. Andre wanted to bring in because we are talking with Chris and Joy about who should get trained and who should get involved so speak to pastors and people that are on staff and even people that most of us attended church why we should encourage our pastors and pastors specifically to come out for this training April 2, and then April 3 and fourth got you know when in life most of us at some point have probably taken a flight of plane ride and on that plane they go through the things if the cabin pressure changes so that was going to fall. They don't care what you prove your position. This is where you see that everybody gets that message so because this is something that happens in people's lives that we do life with and I'd like to see everybody be exposed to the information, but pastors, especially as I did a lot of lay ministry early on and then when I really and truly felt the Lord call me to do more. The first thing I did is to go get training I wanted to understand more of what pastoring was and in this regard. When you understand that you, your you're in the middle of a domestic violence situation. Things change so quickly and you realize how out of your depth you all and in most cases pastors aren't wheat week we practice Cooper's control you exuding that confidence even when we know we we truly are relying on God. It is so we find. I think that pastors are actually a different breed when it comes to this because of their their confidence because of their was the word for that there cult that their ability to connect with people and their influence their their perceived hours they are attractive for him in a position of authority.

They have a position of authority and that is attractive to it and abuse it. You know they want to be a part of that flock that has as a thank you distance themselves, but they actually would know and they thought about how you'll find that they are quick to want to rub elbows with the pastor and the pastor gets to the point where they think this astronomy, but unless you are understanding the flow of the music per se. You don't hear that a list is a drastic scratch just in the record it out in the hip-hop area. They think they've made an art today.

Gotcha. But when it changes directions quickly and you catch a hint of that, you've got to know and be able to identify what's going on and which is not equipped so it's good to be able to reach out and to to counsel up shirt and say so when I got what we do with when it comes to connecting with organizations like called peace ministries illicitly realities. If you've got 25% of the women in your church this weekend that are involved in domestic abuse in one way or another and you're not ready to handle that you're not equipped or not trained, you're not able to listen, you're not listening that's a colossal problem. Pastor Chris Bowles because you got all those problems are sitting right there in your church this Sunday and you're not equipped to handle it, or even the kind of throw the door open and make people aware of it. That's a massive issue that every church pretty much. I would assume is struggling with is that right now we obviously are more than outer really appreciate Andre the master of metaphor. I think see the emergency procedure.

Illustration is brilliant for those about pastoral ministry. We need to secure our own map before we sell somebody else.

So it really think it would, but this have been an area that enjoyed a test of the where pastors have been resistant to training. I still haven't figured out why I really don't know the mystery of it, but I'll work just email beginning to feed pastors. I think seeing a need for this.

I do praise God for all of the training resources including what the FTC has just produced with becoming a church that cares but then also with all of the receptivity would be getting to Malik without Florida pastors especially there in the Raleigh area to come together and to get the additional education on the problem with dynamics of the impact they can lead informed discussion with their elders about what's our practical response. How will we have practical theological response to a real theological problem in marriage just so important were talking about these events that are coming up April 2 pastoral and in ministry leaders session and then the next two days. April 3 and fourth just got called to peace.word that's T0 called to peace.org and hit the events button and you'll be taken over their Telstra quick Chris what you're going to be kind of teaching and leading on and training on why you're here. Sure, I'm really looking forward to work very with actor to be talking about implementing pain, understanding, the theology surrounding the problem, looking at safety planning a different aspect of our really coming out, theological ecclesiological perspective.

Really looking forward to that. The next few days will really be with me as we think about responding wisely to the problem church you know you very problem of the counter the kind of guy there in understanding how we could quietly or graph how we could wisely confront abusers how we can wisely care for victim culture really breaking this before just going to be on the church has been misinformed or ignorant Smith yada yada malicious the time we play to foolish choices, because we were fully informed war or walking like a grade-point finish up with joy and with Andre here. Krista, thank you so much for being a part of the show today.

Thank you so much for continuing to come back here to my to my area to the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill area. We really appreciate you and thanks for being a part of my pleasure Steve and I will see great joy. You got a couple sounds good.

That's good. Thanks, Chris got bless you will talk to you later he's a treasure. What a great blessing to have something like Chris involves some kind of take us through what can be happening. These two days just functionally because I also know people can't get here because this is in the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill area also can be streamed online. Some kind of tell us how to get involved how people get there. Who should be okay, so you've given them the link to register and that the Thursday event. I'm very excited about. It's actually a workshop for pastors and ministry leaders. We will be serving lunch. They are at seven. I can't remember the exact hour. You might have in front of you. 90 for some families and okay and we will be talking about developing a church domestic violence policy. It's like Andre said if you don't know what you know. If you don't know what to do and can write memorizing you probably make a mistake get out those procedures and plans and then also built building a team.

So that's on Thursday and then on Friday night will do is to speak Friday evening and then most of Saturday we going to be doing the wisdom calls conference and that will have Chris and I will be doing some teaching on just the dynamics of domestic abuse but also we this is gonna be a wonderful event for counselors and pastors because we do have a whole session on well from counselors who have missed it like this is where I missed it. And this is where you got that fooled me, and so how do you respond to that and so we will be walking through things like that will have breakout sessions for counselors, breakout sessions for pastors and breakout sessions for survivors.

So 80 counselors and people helpers delete something for everybody so so so people that are involved in domestic abuse right now.

Should they be there. Absolutely if they if they want to come we will have someone there. We have will that we always have people any near the back of the room.

So if they get triggered and feel a little panicky. Then there will be somebody there to talk to them and pray with them so we are we are very aware of that and it turns out when we first started doing these kinds of conferences we were trying to focus on pastors and church leaders, but you know, 80 or 90% of our congregants have our audience was survivors of abuse. Is there going to come they get to come because they want to know that somebody's talking about it. Somebody's actually cares so yes, I would imagine I would be very helpful, encouraging ministerial just affected her in a situation everybody knows the truth acknowledge the truth in stock about the trip.

Yeah it makes so much difference because for so many years they may have gone to their pastor and said, hey this is happening and the pastor didn't believe them or will you certainly are exaggerating things because he's such a nice guy. So now you have this be streamed online.

Is that right yes a live stream so if you sign up you can can watch online live and we will record it and send it out to participant insulator can talk today and then I think also they are one of come in will have some cheap motels are due straight coming in from out of town, so that's April 2 which is for pastors and lately pastors and ministry leaders in April 3 here in Raleigh got a call to peace.org CK LL no call to peace.org and click on the events but also if you're just in the middle of one of these situations reach out to join her team. Andre called to peace.org contact in their get help immediately. Don't wait to put yourself in the box to help Andre thank you so much for being here. Joy is always this is the nobleness the double show, God willing, I'll try to