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Domestic Absuse & Church!

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble
The Truth Network Radio
July 27, 2021 8:46 pm

Domestic Absuse & Church!

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble

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July 27, 2021 8:46 pm

Domestic Absuse & Church!

Steve Noble talks about the subjects, domestic abuse and the church with Joy Forrest and Jim Upchurch. They explain their backstories and the work they do now.


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The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network mobile show where biblical reality meets the everyday issues of life at work and even in politics. Steve was an ordinary man who believes in an extraordinary God it on a show, there's plenty of grace and truth. No sacred cows call Steve now 86 34 through 866-34-TRUTH or check them out online, Steve Noble now here's your host Steve Noble the subject that really quite frankly talk about it more because going on a lot out there and unfortunately many of you, especially, have raised this yourselves and the issue of domestic abuse is prevalent. It's both inside the church and outside the church it has exploded. Last year, as were a lot of other negatives in society. As a result of COBIT and people being home more so you had to abuse.

Abuse of children, but abuse of women as well because people were not having a chance to escape.

Everybody was stuck in their house and so that was a part of what was one of those dominoes, as I've been talking about for the last year and 1/2 with respect to COBIT, but this is a very serious subject.

One of the biggest challenges is that we in the church. Don't really know how to deal with that sometimes we can be a little on the shallow side. I love Jesus, pray, study the Bible some more and be forgiving and everything will be fine.

And while those things are all incredibly important and of themselves when it comes to domestic abuse that in most cases is not enough.

You actually need counsel in teaching and a lot of pastors and churches.

Quite frankly, are not equipped to deal with it because that's not something that generally I don't remember ever hearing about domestic abuse class at the seminary. I don't care what seminary are talking about the Christian counseling. Okay, maybe they get into a little bit but your regular pastor and the staff at the church generally is woefully unprepared to deal with it when it comes knocking, and it's in existence and pretty much every church out there so I whether you know of this personally.

Unfortunately, or you know somebody that's been involved with it or you just go to a church in your your follower of Christ. This is in our house, and as such we need to deal with it.

The issue of domestic abuse. Nobody better at it on the show is been just a great partner for the show. Joy Forrest is the founder of called the piece called to that's T0 called to back in the house as well as Pastor Jim Upchurch is here and he's got a pastoral perspective on this, which is super important. And he serves as a church partner Shipley eight liaison Joy and Jim welcome back our doing well. How are you that almost sounds like you have your own morning show Joy and Jim welcome to join Jim in the morning. Sounds like an odd sound like maybe a podcast but anyway podcast there you go. It's great to see you again. Thank you for coming in again joy full disclosure, I'm usually travel in a thousand miles an hour and and that the subject of domestic abuse gets off my radar screen. God is a joy to put it back on my radar screen and and I appreciate that. So thank you for your willingness to always call and ask.

That's important so let's let's just talk about real quick joy because of it. For people that don't know you in the Pastor Jim for people that don't know you and your story how you ended up in this ministry as well.

But you wanted to start with yours and I will talk about called the piece and then we got some really important training opportunity coming up this Thursday here in Raleigh to just start to go get you go girl.

So in 1995 I fled from my home had gone from just being emotionally painful to physically abusive and even deadly. I took my two girls and left and I didn't believe in divorce and so I kept reaching out for help. Over the course of our marriage we had reached out to a dozen counselors and pastors for help and nobody knew how to deal with it and as I was leaving the situation. It became more and more deadly.

But nobody knew how to help us not even not the courts. It seemed like everywhere I turned I was hitting a brick wall and not I said one day, when it got particularly awful Lord if you just help me live through this, I will help other women in the situation, and he's, help me to it. Yeah, that 1997 I started helping women in my church you had been through it and I am in 2000, the Lord miraculously gave me a job and of domestic violence shelter that I wasn't looking for as their community educator and I saw Christian women coming to the shelter angle and wants my pastor care more about my marriage than my life. My pastor keep sending me back to see what this is doing to my kids and I thought right and then in 2004 God like so clearly called me to seminary and again, which led me to a position as a counselor in my church and again see in the way that even our church was handling and I didn't know how to handle it because it's a very counterintuitive issue. It's not what it appears on the outside at all and so seeing that and seeing the way church counsel was not effective at all really frustrated me.

I think this was like a fire inside of me that It started burning until in 2015. I at a frustration put a post on Facebook that anybody interested in starting a domestic violence ministry and 12 people showed up at my office that and so rest is history. I knew didn't. Did you know at that time that that how deep and wide.

This problem is I knew the statistics because of my job at the shelter. But honestly I had no clue how entrenched it is in the church and how even within the ministry. We had spat so many women come through our meant that this ministry who have been married to pastors and church leaders and that was shocking to me.

You expect that you and so pastor Jim Upchurch is here is church, part partnership liaison with all the piece that's called to By the way this Thursday will talk about the training coming up on this Thursday, but you have the pastoral perspective you in your own experience how God is brought you into this ministry absolutely in joy looks to encourage me sometimes by getting it right. But the truth of the story is 15 years ago I encountered a woman probably the first instance on encountered domestic violence and she had divorced her husband because of severe physical abuse and she had come to me after the fact.

Looking for some comfort some reassurances and at that point in time, although I tried to be gentle and kind. I think I further a brought condemnation to her rather than compassion and help so I screwed it up.

At one point in time about six years ago at my current church we faced a an issue were a couple came to us for marriage counseling and we didn't know what to do. We were we know domestic violence wasn't in our minds is a category we didn't know anything about it.

We were equipped we were educated and we would've screwed it up again had it not been for a counseling couple that have worked with this couple, before you have like you, I didn't hear anything about domestic violence seminary, but this was a man from the seminary in southeastern and without their help in recognizing some of the dynamics that were going on. We really would have messed up once we realize that it had to do with domestic abuse. We got as much help as we could. We began reading articles and books, we began watching videos and almost immediately, we separated them for counseling purposes. Meeting with the woman on on just her and meeting with the man separately. How we approached it from the beginning and it wants. The woman saw that we were believing her and wanted to support her and care for her. Things just started steamrolling and we learned more and more about the situation got in my way.

Come back up against a break when I come back I got involved called the piece and then let's brought it out a little bit joy and talk about just how bad is domestic abuse and American General as well as in the church, specifically in the will start talking about this training coming up which is this Thursday. By the way, here in Raleigh. 9 to 1230 also streaming online or you can attend.

If you're a leader if you're a pastor on staff at the church. We want to their culture will be right back here would worth today and Jim Upchurch called ministries that all GOP' is a website called so if you're on staff at a church work in the church it want to be involved with the leadership in engaging this issue please go to the website called to and this Thursday they have protect the flock, which is a training program that they have designed and are doing for nine to 12:30 PM Eastern time this Thursday here in Raleigh is that hope church in Raleigh will get some more details later, but it's also stream live so wherever you're listening from on the radio on Facebook live or YouTube live or catching the podcast later. You can be a part of this, you can attend it virtually as well as live streams this Thursday 9 to 1230 this Thursday okay just couple days away as the huge problem in the church and is something that we don't handle very well. We don't oftentimes we got let's go back 10 years joy before you, and I knew each other and enjoys here and Jim Upchurch is here.

I had finally made a sport out of throwing pastors and churches under the bus I was.

I was very angry up because I was engaging starting back in 2004 engaging churches and pastors trying to get them involved in various things, I have little compassion for them, not really understanding just how difficult your job is and how much is coming at you. So when I would show up and try to get them involved in something that was worthy. That's what I deemed worthy it was high on my list but not high on theirs. And so I used to take pot shots at pastors and churches all the time. I don't anymore.

I'm a much more compassionate about that. I understand how much churches have on them, but in light of that, I also understand now joy mostly because you've educated me.

How prevalent is it so I want people to understand and really talk about this problem in church and if you're listening in your wondering maybe you think that you're being abused, especially ladies, because what is it, 96, 97% of all domestic abuse women are being up excess of 90% above 90%, so it does happen. The men were not leaving you out, but the vast majority the overwhelming majority is happening to women.

So if you're not sure, and that's where a lot of people want to talk about this. The shame element here, but this I'm just looking up at the power control wheel which joy introduced me two years ago using intimidation, making her afraid. By using looks actions or gestures, smashing things, destroying her property using emotional abuse putting her down, making her feel bad about herself calling her names make. I think she's crazy, which is essentially ghastly using isolation, controlling what she does or she sees and talks to minimizing and denying and blaming making light of the abuse andů Taking her concerns about seriously saying the abuse didn't happen. Or maybe your husband for some you guys your wife uses the children they make you feel guilty about the children they use male privilege they use economic abuse, coercion and threats and of course that's it can can be violent, but not always. There's a whole lot of emotional and mental abuse that can take place about how bad of a problem is this joy so statistically the AMA did a study back in the 1980s which I took a part of and I actually lied because I didn't want him to come get me and wow and they said that one in three American women will experience physical abuse in their lifetime at the hands of an intimate partner. And then there been other studies that show at least one in four women in the church will experience physical abuse at an and in their marriages are on intimate relationships so we know it's a problem that's the third 25% to 1/3 of your congregation. Yeah this experience has experience physical abuse maybe not currently but they have and what happens is because it's so insidious and it changes the way we think, because it's so over time you get more and more used to it. It's kind of like the frog in boiling water analogy so as you get used to it, then your willing to put up with more more of her time in NC.

Start thinking differently and so a lot of most of the women that we see come to us in the first place. Don't say their abuse they will say I'm really confusing is this abuse in their home. They really trying to figure it out. The people who say that there abuse are usually the abusers.

Honestly, they'll claim to be the victim where I can most even in the case that Jim had in his church that he was talking about. She came in with just was very confused about her marriage and so we we know. I think that it's much that it's really underreported, so I would say at least 1/3 of your congregation has experienced domestic abuse, if not more, and how much of a role does shame play in all this.

I was talking during the break on our Facebook live in you to my friends a big continued upward still talking here in the studio. I do hit the pause button. So for all of you on radio. It's not like you're your you're not missing the meat of the conversation, we actually have kind of a sidebar conversation but I was curious about that goes with it. With abortion, obviously there's a lot of shame there because of the nature of what you've chosen to have done to your child so that's not something that were real proud of it that you want to bring that up publicly, but in abuse doesn't shame a big deal as well.

Absolutely were taught to keep it say quiet were taught to hide it but also where embarrassed you know because were supposed to look like the perfect family. I mean I was in a pretty we were well educated, wealthy as wealthy goes and him and we look good on the outside and so I was so embarrassed for anybody to know what was really happening behind closed doors and I didn't let on. I just wouldn't I like to my own family because it's it would make him look bad and I'm trying and that's a Christian thing to I don't want to do anything to make it look bad and Christians that we should have this problem. Yeah, I think it's that like when I was reading something from the power control will be just Google that by the way power control wheel. It's easy to find but do you think that that for a lot of domestic abuse victims joy that they they don't know where the line is in the same maybe my husband just happened is he is a hot right and so they don't really know because you start throwing away around the 80 words that talk about abuse. That's obviously an escalation in terms of the context of a conversation so is that kind of problem part of the problem, absolutely. I think I started one of the chapters of my book saying that I lied under oath, but I didn't think I was lying. I told Judge this is not been an abusive marriage and I had been living with it for years and he had had a knife at my throat. At one point in many abusive physically abusive things that happen very sporadically over the years. Most of the time there was no physical abuse but I taught I believe. I believe that he couldn't control himself and these can have a little nervous breakdown. So I made excuses for them and that's what we do and that's why we come to put up with more and more every time I only couldn't help dad and I should've done something a little differently so that didn't happen that way and we just try to control it.

Pastor Jim Upchurch is also with a certain studio days the church partnership liaison with call the peace. How does this, what, when were talking about this and you been around for several years. I do want to ask Jim about how you got involved called the piece, but hot. How you gonna take all that type of information the Georgia sharing in as a pastor with a flock honey can a process that as a Christian. Theologically, what's going on. I think you you need. I needed the education to be exposed to this sort of information to be able to write even recognize this is a possibility, even in my small church, even in our small church that this might be going on also having an awareness that you're not immune to it.

Just because you have great members of your church. Just because you see outwardly all the evidences of grace and profession of faith doesn't mean that it's it's not going on here so the statistics are very revealing, and we shouldn't ignore those just because we think it's outside of back before you got apartment reason the phrase back before he got woke to this issue. Would you say that this was my deal thinking abuse I'm looking for a bruised eye.

I'm looking for a black guy looking for signs of physical damage, but I didn't understand how wide it is what what you could consider abuse of just ignorant right and that's that's why we often try to use the terms coercive control and abuse.

Sometimes people think immediately, physical abuse, course of control gives it a broader understanding of what's going on just recognizing the damage and the oppression that takes place in situations where there's no physical violence. Yet sort of talk to come back on the brake replicants, the rate the break. I'm finally gonna get you to answer the question about her doing a better job of asking which is how you got involved called the bees will do that.

Where to go from here. If this is resonating with you, or maybe a friend of yours a family member.

The sounds eerily familiar. How do you get help and then bigger issues today. How does the church help putting any clip that will ever talk about what is going on Thursday will be right back back if you notice the noble show I love this, when my friends on Facebook live I was abusive until Jesus dealt with me. Another beautiful thought okay Jesus can deal with you personally can do with you through power the Holy Spirit. We can also deal with you if you're a man that's going on. By the way, if you're a guy in and you think I'm a little hotheaded. I'm I am probably not the best husband every once in a while you probably need to take a little page from the book of James and go look in the mirror. Okay, one of the things you can do when you look in the mirror is on scope of this link up right now on Facebook live okay go look at this power and control wheel but don't don't wait for your wife to confront you about this.

You might need to confront this yourself. So just go look at this if you think maybe maybe I'm not such a good guy. Maybe this the Holy Spirit's dealing with you a little bit right now so I'm putting the linkup literally right on Facebook live.

Okay, that takes you to the power and control wheel and you just honestly asked the Lord to search your heart and to show you if you're in here are you doing these things are you doing them regularly and if you think you are.

You need help. You need to confess that the Lord first and then you need help. You need counseling you need to get to a pastor or you need to get to a group.

I called the peace and get some help. I just felt led to come to jail because we actually did start groups for men. Yes, that's awesome that we're on hiatus that we will start back in the fall great sort of talk here in a minute about what called the piece actually does, but I'm probably gonna ask the question clean plainly but I've been trying to asked that I keep messing up assistant to Pastor Jim Upchurch's fault, a church partnership liaison so how did you get involved with call rise as we continued walking with the woman in our churches situation the survivor of domestic abuse. One of the staff. It called bees asked me to give my testimony.

One of the conferences I was reluctant at first but I did it and gradually got more involved with called the peace. They brought me onto the board for a few years before hiring me part-time.

I'm still full-time pastor. So on a limited basis hiring me to work with churches as the church partnership liaison we we recognize that the way we deal with this issue will be either a positive and beautiful reflection of the character of God and his righteousness and justice and heart for the oppressed, or would be a distorted picture of who God is and so we recognized trainer either or truly need to connect to churches right and so that's one of the challenges is that it can you get this on your plate you find out about it and also I think it's important that a church, a gym, and you correct me if I'm wrong please and only I am. This is something that the church almost needs to broadcast this. If you're having abuse issues in your marriage. We want to talk to both the male and female in the husband and the wife but it's gonna gotta be on the table. Somebody goes, we all know it's there. It's like an 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Everybody knows it's there, but sometimes were unwilling to talk. I think they would have to define it first because again right. How many people don't recognize that's what's going on in their marriage and one of our friends on Facebook live by the way real quick when I said that about the guys posted a link by Chris Volz courses is been on before Chris MI abusive the powerful questions of guys gentlemen and ladies. Some of you to. I've known an abusive woman in us in a story that I probably will never share on the air. I wasn't me personally, but somebody I love deeply in the in the abuser was a woman. Okay, a young woman so the Celica can happen but MI abusive gentlemen, if you're feeling the tug of the Holy Spirit that may be of issue here and some you ladies even go do that. I just put the linkup on Facebook like Jim or you say some surrogates I think so. I can remember later moment doesn't have moments just in my 60s. It's gone like hey hey, easy go after the host.

Okay, so what is called the piece to generally and then we'll talk about this Thursday so we have a two-pronged ministry.

One is to provide hope and healing for survivors of domestic abuse that we have support groups with a curriculum that we wrote our and then we have advocacy so we actually train up advocates and those are people who can go into churches, and help we train them not to go in and take take the lead, but to help, and a victim of abuse very often is so traumatizing can't tell a story in a very short frame type timeframe so they can share with the advocate advocate can go and get the information to the pastor in a nutshell, so that they don't have to sit there and try to figure out where she's going. They talking about somebody with PTSD, so it's really the advocate can help get a see through all of the confusion and and help on a team that can help support this woman and her family. We we provide advocacy.

We have even an emergency fund for those who work come through our support groups to help them get on their feet financially.

What else do we do, and that so that's the work and we have retreats for survivors and then on the other hand we do trainings and we are now partnering and I'm really excited about the church partnership program. So we've hired pastors to help other pastors we have Jim we have Andre turn tying who see pastor of the ship Shepherd in the field and he and we are probably going to be hiring a couple more pastors to work alongside with of churches to help them navigate these really murky waters. It's so hard to navigate a domestic abuse situation and so what we want to do is come alongside the church not criticize them for getting it wrong. It's easy to get it wrong.

I've gotten it wrong and what we want to do is help them understand how to navigate more clearly and I love what you just said about the really reflecting what Jesus would do and so many of the women that come through our ministry come through with a really warped view of God and the God is against them.

So for them and their children think the same for a church to reach out into help is gonna be really reflecting God's goodness and that they have lost somewhere along the way in their abuse. Certainly, of course, makes perfect sense or talking to Joy Forrest is the founder of called to peace ministries called to STO called to and Jim Apter Upchurch as well. Church partnership liaison. What are some of the biggest challenges that the church faces and why they need training because I was so this is a huge problem yeah, but what I was going to say earlier was that before broadcasting you might want to get some equipping guests, prepare the ground before you get an influx of people responding to their outcast totally out there to get ready to help because there's help needed but you gotta be prior art so some of the challenges I think churches faces. One would be treating it like a marriage problem and it takes two to tango might be the idea and so we we just need do marriage counseling. We need to do marriage enrichment. Tell her to respect and love her husband and tell the husband to sacrifice himself other challenges might be. This is a he said she said sort of dynamic. We don't know who to believe you and so one big thing would be getting equipping. I think that demonstrates kind of a lack of awareness or understanding of the issues to be not be able to discern truth from from logs yeah and you mention something earlier joy that I wanted to follow up on in the night. Let's dive in the nuts and bolts what's can happen on Thursday because I think this is worth repeating. Oftentimes in the church were more interested in saving the marriage than saving your life.

Is that what you said. I did Alaska's what I've heard that from so many people out. I was that way in my own mind I didn't want to.

I didn't believe in divorce. I didn't want to be divorced and so I kept going back until it almost cost me my life until my 12-year-old daughter said mom you just leave and I said but God hates divorce and she looked at me and said mom.

He hates divorce, but he's gonna hate it a lot more on the mom's dad. She had more wisdom than I did but we in the church.

I think idolizing.

Sometimes we idolize married.

It feels like the Sabbath of the 21st century. You know so you know what Jesus was not like that when he went to minister to people he always would minister to that if he was he was looking at the individual over the institution so the woman caught in adultery that the law says you got to stone this woman and he didn't and he says neither do I condemn you and said he showed grace and said even think about the woman at the well. I feel like he went out of the way and if he oversaw the chosen. I love that because he always thought this woman must've been abuse to have had five husbands ended to be in another relationship when which she wasn't married so the church really has not that do and again it's is something that I was indoctrinated into a lot of us. I think you know we just got so focused on families and the well-being of the family and the marriage that we forgot the individuals and it is devastating to these women. It is beyond their so spiritually devastated that they don't even know the goodness of God when they come to us and so that has to change a lot of spiritual work to do there okay so this Thursday from 9 to 1230. Hope church in Raleigh which is the norm for all your help. Capital Boulevard check the flock tell us about well, it's kind of an introductory training for some people who are just being exposed to these ideas, although it would be tremendously helpful to come a second time. If you've already been we will be speaking about definitions of abuse, statistics of abuse is, gives you a broad overview of becoming aware of the issues being able to identify issues of coercive control and in domestic violence. We also get into some initial steps that you can take in caring well for the oppressed as well as initial steps and walking alongside and holding accountability accountable those those who perpetrate this yet joy and they will have dues and don'ts so you know we want to. This will definitely not equip you to handle it well because it takes years to really understand this.

Are you at least a year of our advocacy program that it won't fully equip you, but it will help you not to do any harm. So to do no harm is really where we want to get them and to connect them with resources so that they can handle it better because it's it's just not wise to try to handle it on your own when it said an issue that is so counterintuitive right were talking to.

I joy for us is the founder of called the peace ministries called to and Jim Upchurch is the Church. Partnership liaison will continue to talk about what's going on this Thursday protect the flock, plus some words to especially you out ladies up there if you are or you think you are in the domestic abuse environment. Some words of encouragement and empowerment.

I get some help. This is Steve noblest the double show will be right back back is still here today with joy. The worst is the founder of health oh and Pastor Jim Upchurch series well Church partnership liaison. I just talking generally about domestic abuse mostly against women, but does happen to some men, so let's remember that, keep that door is wide open as it needs to be to help as many people as possible so if you're struggling with. This is somebody that thinks you being abuse. You really need to understand what that is and I think let me ask you this joy.

The me to movement, which everybody don't get triggered by me saying that okay just be bringing up to me to movement. I think that discernment is something that every Christian needs a whole lot of these days because there's a little bit of truth mixed in with things all over the place of the me to movement one of the things I appreciate about that is because we've had a history of not believing women, and then you and then we go the opposite direction because were like a southern driver were were got some snow on the ground like you have an edge in your wiping off on this on the site right side of the road so he overcorrected and up on the left side of the road, but we tend to overcompensate but I think one of the things about the me to movement is that we need to give this a more serious consideration. When women make a charge. Yes, you have to find out.

We have to be truthful were people of the book, but there's a part of that that I have that always caught me that maybe we do have a problem that our initial reaction is. Maybe he's just a little redheaded.

Whatever. Well I in my experiences at advocating for other women for you the last 24 years. Most of the time when they went forth, and they disclose the abuse, which took a lot of nerve. They are not believed or was minimized especially by pastors and Christian counselors. What did you do to cause that.

So I tell people that it's always good to believe somebody's initial claim unless there they've given you really good reason not to believe it and we don't become investigators because they found it done studies and found that only 3 to 5% of claims about domestic abuse are false, and it's usually when they're trying to gain something from it so need housing and I saw that happen when I worked at the shelter, but I get out and we've had a couple of times.

Maybe when no. I believe they were abuse but they were using the abuse to gain maybe financial health or something. But for the most part you can believe people when they take the risk to even tell you because they're endangering themselves by telling you, so we want to always believe them.

Yes, start their in the end and move from there. So in terms of equipping this way thinks the most important part of what happens at this Thursday at the protect the flock training which is nine to 12:30 PM. It's here in Raleigh seeing come in person this Thursday at hope church in Raleigh. Just go to called to peace. The website called to 9 to 1230 but it's also streaming live but you do need to register for that of Jesus ought to go to the website and watch the stream skin to sign up for Access to it, but want to soak what it one of the things that you really lean into a training like this you personnel. I want to mention that we are giving away free breakfast so so the event does not have a cost we ask if the people want to donate, they can so there will be breakfast there that that is not the main thing we are hoping that people take away. We want them to be more equipped to be able to leave and say, well at least now I have some tools and they know who they can call and who they can contact. We will actually walk alongside them again with our church partnership program with our advocates and we will actually train people in their churches through our programs if they want to do there a lot of local churches, which is been really exciting for me to see a lot of them are coming up with domestic policies but also domestic violence teams or domestic abuse teams and that is been extremely encouraging to me because for many years before the me to movement. I will say that I appreciate it. For that fact. I was out there.

I felt like I was the lone prophet, crying out, there's abuse and nobody believed me, but somehow things have switched and people are starting to listen.

So that's very encouraging.

You mention advocacy up a bunch of time. So when somebody what what is an advocate do and how to do it. So, an advocate is not a counselor but it somebody that walks alongside a victim or survivor of abuse and helps to improve the outcome for them in a way, you know, we help them learn not to react there certain things that we can do to help them not have the same kind of frustration that so many advocates have and again they are part of the team so that they can represent that they couldn't wrap present the survivor on a domestic balance team because a lot of time survivors are so traumatized they can't even put their story together and logical form. So an advocate can help with that and they can go to court with them. They can help just support them in all the practical things that they need and it's a lot in most churches are not equipped to deal with all of that at one time. Is there other others. Is there something that should not be an advocate like if you've experienced abuse yourself, or does that actually make you a better advocate. I would imagine be a matter of time and healing and equipping you but it but who should and who should not is anywhere that should be well.

We have a program that's a year long and so we have actually it's like college-level courses. So God sent somebody Dr. Deborah Wingfield house of peace publications. He was a professor at Colorado State University and she came into my office one day and set about 30 courses I've written on domestic abuse and advocacy, and I've had people asking me to teach a class and I didn't have time. But what we've discovered is that a lot of the most of the people who come through the class are survivors, but Jim's been through it.

A lot of men have come through it. A lot of pastors anybody wants to know how to help and the ones I think that he should not be advocates, at least not initially are those who are survivors who have not healed yet, and so what we do is in an assessment. We have advocates all over the country now and even in some other countries and what we do before we assign people to see them is make sure that they are no longer triggered by the fair hearing and they don't go on the warpath soda makes perfect sense. Can you talk a little about the book and I know that I'm not trying to put in a pedestal right obviously so what about the book is now it's available in audio form which is so yes and so you were nice enough to learn your equipment. That's why went so why am I so we didn't yet know this stuff is my dear to mind the studios on mine.

So God so anyway the book is called to peace of survivor's guide to finding peace and healing after domestic abuse and we have a companion workbook now and that's what we use in our support groups. We do have support groups all over the nation and we are trying to get them really organized by time zone at least. And so it's basically looking at how is the healer and so many of us to come through trauma can't can't can't even heal my trauma, my PTSD, but it was really I had to make an effort and I had to meditate on his truth and his word and it was beyond just telling myself the truth. I was really meditating on it and I asked I accidentally healed from PTSD. Nowadays I know it was because I was actually reaching the traumatized parts of my brain which logic can't reach through meditation PowerPoint. Jim's speak Iroko got about four minutes left.

Speak speak to pastors and church staff and people that are involved with the church in terms of why they should be involved in why they should contact called the police and why they should be there for the protect the flock conference which is sisters from a theological perspective again reflecting the character of God in his truth and righteousness and justice, for in his heart for those who are oppressed, we have encountered a growing number of churches and pastors reaching out to us and so we're expanding even our team for church partnerships because I can handle it all. Just a limited time we sure talked about the church partnership program so coming to this training might be one step closer to your church becoming church partner and that what that would mean we would come alongside of you, give you resources for education and equipping we would we continue to put on the quarterly trainings we come alongside of you for particular cases, high need cases where we can consult with you and give you options going forward. Prioritizing the safety of the woman or the victim. In those cases how you can begin to walk alongside of the oppressor as well and then also we have people who can work with you in our coming up with how do we develop our response to him. How do we develop policies and procedures and we can take a look at those things and help you as a church to care well for those in your yeah really frontage is actually comprehensive to cover all the different aspects of the joy and that this is more difficult in the show kind of thing but I guarantee there's some women listening that are struggling with this and are being abuse themselves will how you start what you say to them how they start. Well, I think that the first place you go is admitting the truth and that's a really hard thing because when you admit the truth, I was often will take first Corinthians 13 437.

Love is patient, it's kind it's not easily provoked, it doesn't insist on its own way, and all of those things that love is and that's what you know is not an and abuse is so it's the exact opposite of love and so when we admit that it's abusive. We have to admit that this man is choosing not to love me well and so that's a very hurtful thing that that's step number one in the healing process. If you're not sure that we have a checklist on our website where I think it it basically has a button somewhere that you can for those who need help are you think that it might be abuse and you're asking yourself under the resources button it says warning signs quit right so there's a quiz that you can take there. It doesn't have to be physical to be abuse. You don't have to be harmed physically, but if you're living in fear and you lost your freedom to be an individual and think your own thoughts, then you're probably being in an abusive relationship. So, what percentage of of abusive relationships involve physical violence. It's actually a small percentage.

Sometimes they only have to hit you one time and it may never happen again because that you know that that threat is always there there tenable of it. So then you keep your set you just tiptoe around so that it will never get to that point again but you're being completely controlled. It's like terrorism or just living in constant fear. I use the filter every thought through how my husband might react that and he was my Lord. Instead of Jesus such a powerful point joy joy for is the founder of called the peace ministries Jim Upchurch is here as well.

Church partnership liaison called to is the website BAL LEDTO this Thursday protect the flock. 9 AM to 12:30 PM. If you're here I can get to hear the Raleigh locally. This Thursday at Hope church in Raleigh can also stream it live online but you register and then if you're struggling. If you think this is the world that you're in go to call the and this RESOURCES and help as well become an advocate get your church involved, there's so many different ways that we have to engage in. It's not an option.

We have to do it. Joy and jumping so much for being thanks for having us in every walk of this is the noblest ignoble shell, God willing, I'll talk again real soon. Like my dad always used to say ever for another program powered by the Truth Network

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