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Theology in Black & White

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble
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June 11, 2020 2:46 pm

Theology in Black & White

The Steve Noble Show / Steve Noble

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June 11, 2020 2:46 pm

Theology in Black & White

Today Steve talks to Dr. Walter R. Strickland II Assistant Professor of Systematic and Contextual Theology and Associate Vice President for Diversity At SEBTS.  We talk about George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement.  We also talk about SEBTS’s Diversity training program.  


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Everyone is time for the noble show where biblical Christianity meets the everyday issues of life in your home, at work, and even in politics. Steve is an ordinary man who believes in an extraordinary God it on a show, there's plenty of grace and lots of tree but no sacred calls 866-34-TRUTH 866-34-TRUTH or checking out Now here's your host Steve Noble away from a little bit Baptist theological seminary and its theology Thursday as it is every week and will dive right into that second but we are talking couple buddies talking downstairs and I asked the question in terms of overall impact on our culture and our society. How would you split up social media 5050 5050% good percent bad, 6040 7030, and one of the guys that 8020 and actually Walter you thought you think I was a little low house in 90 to 90 times the worst of the worst rights of 9010 negative impact on society and and I got into an argument which I know is shocking for some of you a few years ago talking about the impact of technology on sin and are we sending more is the culture sending more now that we have this digital realm that we get the plan and my friends response was no. I think our sin is remained about the same and I disagree like that I think it's enabled a whole another level it's unlocked another chamber of things that we would not normally do in person that we would definitely do online and you might have a conversation like this happened recently and is a guy that I love them in person. I can't stand them online. I can't stand his twitter account, but I can go have coffee with the guy in love on him.

But is this like we turn into a different animal. And that's duplicitous and it's two-faced and we need to remember that we done shows on on how to handle ourselves on theology Thursday. We've actually done shows on our social media imprint and how do we represent the Lord in our social media lies besides what we do in person, so there's all that they are so working to divest ourselves of that kind attitude today. Walter Strickland's been on the show before assistant Prof. systematic and contextual theology here at Southeastern Baptist as well as the associate vice president for diversity University is what you say Walter will go back to the show. It's great to see you although I don't recognize you. I recognize you because I know you are in your face. Normally Walter is you and Bishop wouldn't are two of the best dressed men ever been around my life my life my life but also in Walter. One benefit of the cobra 19 situation we can get a detection exactly exactly how so-so Steve is the first floor plans for the belt and not on the hollow sows having another angle. I know what it means to be free in Christ, but it's great to have you back and I want to talk to people's been what I want people to understand your background, how you ended up here at Southeastern what the kingdom diversity initiative is and also your own background where you grew up because we dive into these issues. They working on pack, the obvious things. Walter happens to be an African-American.

As many of you know I'm about as white as you get in sort of bring that in his two brothers in the Lord and and work our way through this, which I think is one of the big things that we should all be striving is good, constructive conversation.

Patient and being willing to listen and being slow to speak and slow to anger, quick to listen, and that's something that we should be setting the bar as Christians in this culture that's many ways, and this isn't the only subject that were just tearing ourselves apart in this country and as Christians we need to be setting a different example have that prophetic opportunity but take us, and how you ended up here, but in your past so that we get yes I was born in Chicago than the south side Chicago for number years as a family we moved to Southern California and so I want from this you know not only African American existence to a very melting pot existence in the southern part of California.

Bakersfield exacts which if you're from selling to southern Southern California near Los Angeles or you note San Diego say that that's difficult for you southern California anyway. So, after going up there, going from first to do high school that I went to the cornfields of Ohio to Cedarville University. Had my second monocultural experience with that with that. When I was a minority and that was you are and then out came the Southeastern chimney for my Yosemite training did a great degree in theology at University of Aberdeen, Scotland. So by God's grace, unable to live in a variety of different places. Having gleaned a lot from each of them and you know that I'm glad to be back your teaching theology is is a professor doing some writing as well. The book came out last Friday really yes calls for God's love the world, a blueprint for kingdom diversity awesome and so I just so happened that the words offer to come out now and want to right right middle of all this very thing.

Yeah, yeah.

So you see, you know, to believe in a sovereign God, that's more evidence for you and then also I leader kingdom diversity initiative, which basically it's a initiative on our campus seeking and equipping people from every corner of the kingdom to serve in every context.

Looking in sources and what were trying to do is every single student on campus and so I say that because people assume that a diversity initiative is only to recruit and retain great minority students, but the reality is that that's part of what were doing, but were trying to equip every one of our students to serve anybody that God might put in from the path which is as it sounds very simple or very obvious but naturally happens is that faculty teach and give illustrations, anecdotes insert of all the sort of things that emerge from their own sort of a church experience life experience which is fine which we all naturally I do, but if were going to equip people who are beyond just the instructors for the average instructor at arts institution we have to be able to see beyond ourselves little bit and be able to raise questions that people are going to interact with in their place of ministry, which really is a wonderful task that we've been joyfully pursuing now for seven years now and so really, my hope is that every graduate that walks across the stage of Southeastern Baptist. You also seminary because Southeastern would be more able to minister in an urban environment in a suburban environment in a rural environment and be able to apply the balm of the gospel to whatever wounds there might be being able to discern those wounds and be able to sort of proclaim the truth of the gospel to them.

Yeah, and then in another part of it was and I've noticed is over the seven years that that you been here and then Malika was here for a while. In this concerted effort that they listen, where one of six Southern Baptist seminaries in America, the largest seminary in the East Coast and Southern Baptist seminaries in the Southern Baptist convention are not necessarily known for their blended box of crayons kind of a look right, so I've noticed over the years that it's a much more diverse campus as well as not just the student body, but faculty and staff as well, which is also part of it, which I think is important because of her to be sending missionaries out all over the world different context here in America and around the world should and are seminaries look a little bit more like the world a little bit less like I don't know them all in some suburb somewhere right so I remember you know talking about, but it will blow your mind. I we were in chapel troubles. We said hey. Talk to someone who is of a different background than you sold me the one-of-a-kind chapel said bye to the said oh my goodness, you can take this up really want him to his foster relationships with people, so we had to have more folks of different background or to help you were talking to Walter Strickland today on theology Thursday will unpack all kind of the obvious issues over the nation and as Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ.

There only way you Southeastern Baptist theological seminary talking to Walter Strickland announces the my doctor when that can happen about three years ago you got to you. I've been dissing you. Please forgive me publicly. Please forgive me, what you get your doctor was right in front of the University of Aberdeen and he mentioned that earlier so theology and so it's really it's probably theological study. Welcome back to theology. Thursday was the Southeastern Baptist theological seminary here with Dr. Walter Strickland, a good friend and a great friend program and a great but let's start diving into the deep weeds here because those you don't know if you're on Facebook live Walters after American. I'm deathly not so but we both love the Lord. We both believed red and we have so many more things in common than we do. Apart and it's important for all of us to remember that I mean that you even met a bishop would in a couple of times and that's one of the things that bound us together as friends. 16 years ago as we reminded each other hate is open. We both believed red mean lid physiologically were almost identical. We love the same Lord we read the same Bible thing baptism same spirit and that gets us through a lot of choppy water.

So let's all remember that is Christian so today when you first saw George Floyd in the context of your own background in the context of this topic. Modern history American history. What was that like for you oh so I was overwhelmed because it was to give me a sense of hopelessness in the sense that I just got done watching the video of the young lady in Central Park and that that was frightening for me because it seemed as though that the reason why that situation for her was a threat because not there was a man that is an African-American man right right so he was seen as a threat and he didn't even from what we know he didn't really do not ask her to put it Lee yeah which is the rule in the in the park And so that that was a little bit discouraging for me and then to see this on the heels of that.

Almost immediately, then skills of reeling from the model are very situation.

I dislike me. I really me on the amount a person who walks around, you know, I don't think with each of my on my shoulder that I said man kinda break you know that frustration then was hopelessness and then of course we hope in Christ, but just thinking like you know it is my gonna walk out of here and be mistaken. So last night we had some friends over to her house and they became over house was set on the garage are probably socially distant.

So my wife and I them and we had a great time they ended up leaving at midnight and so I was walking my serve our our backyard chairs around our house. My own house and it was very dark. Casino is midnight. There's no the moonlight. The movement of a summer house might but my worry was is is someone you call the cops on him on house you and you don't end up on the one hand, people might think all your you just freaking out but on the other hand, you know it's it's almost like if you are continually told, you know, even in the media, and even even the exceptional cases that are so public now because of the smart phone is social media would have you you everything becomes the only thing exactly and so you always wonder if you to be that one moment this can get captured or somebody who's good with that, it's a moment like that. Would you say that heightened sense that Self-awareness in the situation. The context night in the neighborhood. You would you say that Kenneth ebbs and flows, depending on what's happening in the new cycle like like right now or in the middle of all this. Yes, maybe eight months ago we weren't absent is that that makes an eye makes complete sense because it does Evan flow because you know that this might my parents had were fantastic.

You know from the from the beginning of my life. They were saying they were giving me little nuggets but I didn't know why.

For example, Walter. The storekeeper has on your pockets at night.

Don't walk around your hood on.

That there just always know giving the little things are that it was just general etiquette. You didn't tell me why general etiquette for anybody yeah as opposed to general etiquette for you as an African America and so I just thought it was just but then later be in didn't tell me exactly why there say next. They don't get bitter you know it, because knowing why think they knew what they're preparing before the world that we live in incident to give me every chance at succeeding in a world that you know is going to have some assumptions about me, perhaps, but you know even so, so even as a baseline of awareness. But then as you're saying it does Evan flow these moments where I'm just extra vigilant when ending it with these things so and in watching the video, where does your mind go I mean I'm I'm thinking of Lord at this point my life when I'm watching anything situation. Whether it's George Floyd. What happened with the mod are very protests, riots and looting and to follow all that stuff. Almost always, my initial reaction is his grieving and brokenness, because I'm looking at the broken human condition that's that's usually my first response then I'll bring all these other assets at the white man in a black man like Isaac Kopp black.

I don't know his story. Eight minutes and then it goes from there, but initially my response is usually gospel centered, but that's my perspective.

So what what were you coming experiencing as you watch this video. Yeah so I watch about 10 seconds of it for the much that's my foot on my hands and I consider grace from God. He said don't watch that is what is what a white brother. He said that he was infuriated. He was just know to do his emotions. He says all know I don't know where your mind would go if you watch this thing so to this day I took my friend's advice and had not washed but for the for those separate seconds that I relayed my mind over and over again.

I I see not George Floyd. Although I do see him but I see myself as my cousin see my my my nephews and I see the possibilities of this happening to anybody going into your context. You immediately gather there's there's a there's a collective memory that's there in a collective memory is a reality that especially in is more prevalent amongst people who are minorities that there's just collective. You know pull of information that you just draw upon you, and to put stuff into it with a larger context. For example, in our home. We were told the story are told of him until the story arc stories are told of this and that you noticed that in the stories going on in it and it's in its on the one hand, to remember people to know their names are, but on the other hand disable this is also the America that we live in and in you and I was blessed to grow up in a house where they would tell me that just for the sake of my own survival, not because are trying to make me to a militant and so is but as I'm seeing that I'm saying. The story continues yeah and in an and am I going to be intimately involved in the story, as in me being on the pavement. My dad or my cousin Sgt. started texting people, telling them I love them and noted to this really trying to connect with people, to let them know that I care about them casino just as you just never know you so it's it's really that into a deeply personal experience yet and when you relate you just never know. And this one of the things whenever I have discipline on the show. I always ask him to give me a more recent racist environment or experience you had recently any any like well okay and then he tell me it reminds me that he still experiences and this is a very successful man with a large church in a big region. A lot of influence but still it still happens to him and so I have to stop and go okay. I may not understand the context but I need to listen the context of recognized context and some people will say hey that's all this stuff is in the past, people get triggered by the way, you just explain that David Pascal let go of how he that's people for your path have an impact on who you are today. Now my past like had no impact.

I never think of what your context, especially in America. Because average of 40 year look back at Steve Noble to Steve Noble, show theology Thursday with our good Dr. Walter Strickland, associate VP of diversity here at the seminary as well as the teaching theology and I just a great voice, and God is the usual and it's been really kinda fun to watch the last seven years is God's use you in a lot of different ways to have these difficult conversations and end were not always unified and what we think. I'm not specifically talking about us, although I know we've disagreed on things before but in the body of Christ in the Southern Baptist convention which is largely Caucasian. It's it's having these conversations is usually hard usually uncomfortable. Usually, everybody's got left feet roll Chandler how well it is interesting because I can learn how to navigate life of two left feet because it's a country should have. Often I would imagine that the average SBC here has his conversation every time an incident like this happens, restrictive incidents that foretell conversation and so because you.II really good day without having to articulate something about this issue is if it's for my job or not, you know, I usually end up sort of resting in the awkwardness, knowing that out of you know conversations with people or having to wrestle that there's growth. You and I only got one. I think the last time we did a show we are talking about racial issues and I asked the question what is the wind look like WIN and a lot of us struggle with what is. I think conversations like this is part of a win. I think when were listening.

It's part of the wind and then there's the reality of how we handle it inside the church and then how the culture handles which are two very different things. Okay, so then we go to the protests, riots, looting anti-fa that whole mess. What what you what you think and on that yes so unjustly a protester, a guy whose nonviolent direct action in all the way and in no and in acutely civil disobedience.

You know which is also nonviolent. Yet he knows I've done all that myself.

Yeah so you know for violent protests and looting. I'm deathly not for that but in a night and I was video call it what it is it's it's vandalism it's it's inappropriate it's need of destroying businesses of your friends and family, but the concern of mine is, is that people see that which is a small percentage of people who are out there protesting and then they then sort of cast a negative shadow on the actual insulin so we had to do was be in a separate people who are looting, which is a small percentage of the people who are out there from the events and so people will say she was people because you know George Floyd did something like this are two very different phenomena in their very different cities.

These people don't even live in Minneapolis or wherever the looting because they would know the problems for them stuff and then another dynamic in this particular series of events is that a lot of the protesters were not African-American right and so do not unite in. Of course, when you see video of anything you're only seeing a small portion of what's actually going on.

Remember that yeah it but what I was seeing is that there is a lot you know several accounts of African-Americans trying to stop other African Americans and even people who are you note, not African Americans from looting. You know it. So because there is a great video of a young African-American woman yelling at two probably antifog girls who are who were defacing a Starbucks. They were spray painting the Starbucks and she said not that often because working to get blamed what I really need to wait girls from the suburbs with their attitude problems. Whatever's going on there got help, but you have to. That's what we have to be careful. I look at that crowd like okay we got peaceful protesters. Now when you look nationwide. The overwhelming majority people because the numbers are starting even bigger now, staggering, and they're all over the country overwhelming majority of them are peaceful people when there's been clashes with the police. Peaceful people can turn into freaked out people running all over the place and then you have the antifog people. The agitators who are mostly vandalism and a lot of anti-cop stop people destroying property and looting, which is a wide variety you got some locals. The whites evoke left Americans your people friend in the whole thing just becomes this freight me looks a little bit like hell on earth. It's time chaos to manage many ways and and and and I really think that it's so difficult to just give a single statement about her judgment on the whole thing yeah it's a L actually parceled out a little bit because often times up and ask you are you forwards happening in the aftermath. Are you against it. Like that's that's an impossible question is a question yeah I saw like it done I can answer and like okay so therefore it will say and I heard that it's been funny to watch some of these networks having to deal with live interviews in the middle of the Situation because they can't they can't control the layman on yet his F bombs and stuff showing up on Fox News and CNN and stop and they were asking to one young fairly young African American. I guess he was about 20 about the looting and the destruction of property needs like man I got so much anger in me what you expect. And then there's that question were some people acting like okay because of all the anger and racism in the things we've experienced in my life, my family members lives. Then all of a sudden the violence and the lawlessness is justified. So were were fighting one injustice with what a lot of us I think would see is another injustice. But some people say well I can't help myself and that's where I get nervous when this movement either side starts to eliminate personal responsibility, yeah That's highly problematic for me to an out out out but you know I would add just to throw this in the next to season the conversation as well like him okay is a quote it's something to the effect of the brick is the language of the voiceless of the voiceless and and and basically what you say think he is obviously not a person who was looting. He was nonviolent through and through. But what he's trying to sit to to give us some social commentary saying that if there was a more productive means for people to be hurt if they felt like they had people listening to them and perhaps that that emotional energy that need to be exerted to be get it exerted a different way and so perhaps you know if you are somebody who is working a job at a school or at a government entity or at a church or what have you. You allow allow pathways of engagement for folks open those up slick so that they can feel hurt you, not on the I've worked as a diversity consultant for various types of organizations and there was working with some some folks who are alumni of the school. There were a bit frustrated about some things they want to talk to Facebook and but then the you know the head of school and meeting with them and they were just so glad to meet with them and that avenue of communication with an open prior to that I doubt it would've made it to Reno social media platform. So on to say I think if it is far as the what we do what's next.

How do we help this sort of a phenomenon to be lessened in the future. I think that's definitely one of the things we should take into consideration so search all the spheres of influence that you have etiquette you can be small or large, but whatever spirited food you have in your home and your work with your church and community. Try to see if you can give.

You know people in opportunity to express themselves because otherwise it's gonna come out in one of the worst, the most emotionally charged time in the worst possible way on that's why when we set aside not directly involved shall the talk about social media and its impact social media is not about listening is just about speaking it's about broadcasting, I will come in. I'll drop a bomb and then I'll go back to whatever is doing for the rest of the day. I don't really care people say about it and so were not listening on that quote is a lot of people reason that Orion is the language of the unheard that's what he said if you read the rest of what he was saying there. He also said violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral have not unmindful of the fact of violence often brings about momentary results nations have frequently won their independence in battle America directly, but in spite of temporary victories.

Violence never brings permanent peace, nonviolence is not sterile passivity but a powerful moral force which makes for social transformation because MLK understood I'm I'm probably way more of a skeptic than he was because he believed in the conscience of the American people. He did that. If we can if we can go on if we can be covered. Nausea and and were passive, resisting nonviolent and in their imploring nothing but violence against us. I'm hoping that will prick the conscience of the American people. Yeah it is.

It but I don't know that we have that conch the same conscience today that all you know it.

I think I think we just we continue to bring up social media and unlike an antisocial you guys sort of force to be on it because of my work and what have you but I really do think the amount of images that we see desensitizes us to the reality of things so good.

In the in the 50s and 1955 when the you know the number bus boycott. Through his death and 68 I think there were far fewer images there are far yet that there were there were far fewer and it wouldn't have any sort of ongoing sort of Cable News Network's are discovering things constantly stuff you have social media that was giving us a barrage of images into this language from people reporting of various kinds of one's journals. Now you know it, with all their slants and it was like that so I do think we are but desensitized to it I think is a great point because we are. That's why I don't think we could've stomach World War II. In today's context of information. That's why Vietnam went so differently is also nursing in body bags every day on the on the TV and then today you see everything all the time and we get desensitized to it.

So when I like one that when the old man.

The 75 guy approached the cops and a member what city it was and they pushed him out of a felon is bleeding back Z and then something like well you know place this Candace Owens quote play stupid games when stupid prizes like okay and and is it wise to then go walk up in the middle of this context to go didn't know, but it's still a frail old frail old man and you got up to stop her thick and fast and I put it on Facebook. I might does anybody else bugged by this in 90% of the people that reply basically said he got what he deserved.

Like that's that desensitization yeah yeah the funeral man go down. Maybe he's an obnoxious frustrated hippie. Probably what it it was unwise for him to be buddies filming the image of God is still died form the little man lost his balance and you don't grieve over that first got a problem will be right back sociology Thursday as it is every week with her friends at Southeastern Baptist theological seminary here to Dr. Walter Strickland, associate VP for diversity in theologies teaching out here at the seminary talking through just having a brother to brother conversation a Walters African-American I'm Caucasian. We both love the Lord rebirth.

He's more well versed in the Scriptures than I am but were were deftly not just pew center so that's were bringing to this as we can come at the subject's coming out of the George Floyd murder and everything else happened ever sense. With that love of Christ and and fidelity to the Scriptures and working your way through these things you mentioned something during the break and and if you want to extend kind of the content that you get if you just ever listening on the radio or even the podcast. The podcast does not include all of our commercial breaks and were sitting here in the studio and were still on Facebook like so there's like another 14 minutes of conversation that happens every day between four and five, Eastern time that you don't get. If all you do is listen to the radio so even if you get the podcast. Some remember that.

So if you want to go to the Steve Noble show page on Facebook you can, invest a little bit more.

There and we do, I do take information from my friends on Facebook and try to incorporate in the show. Not every day but pretty often what we were talking during the break Walter Nexis is worth mentioning is were dealing with these difficult subjects is grace and truth junk junk after one verse 14 Jesus full both grace and truth. Tim Keller, which by the way if any of you been touched by Tim Keller's ministry. Pray for him.

He just came out is a battling pancreatic cancer. I lost my sister-in-law to pancreatic cancer in February. It is a brutal, vicious cancer, so pray for Tim Keller but he said a while ago. This had a huge impact on me Walters if you're all truth and no grace your bully what I was as a culture where your guy man I compound on the truth but I lacked grace so I was a bully, but the reverse of your own grace and all truth. You're a coward to stay away from everything try and make everybody feel good. Then he reference John chapter 1 verse 14 Jesus full both grace and truth and end use. You mentioned that during the break that we have to do. I gotta care about people's feelings.

But my ultimate allegiances to the Lord and to truth and we need to be willing to listen and I think we haven't seen a lot of grace we have. We haven't even our our our hot take.

You know, culture, our soundbite culture doesn't lend itself to that and I think there's a lot of big ideas, especially as Christians we need take hold of. At this time so for example I mean something that I've observed, especially amongst my works in the church especially report about diversity coming together unified in Christ. People of different backgrounds is that we we try to do this work.

We tried to embody God's you know kingdom people as much as we can even now people who are of the majority culture say yes we are already in of this this people of God. The dividing wall of hostilities dropped.

We are already this and minorities would say yes we are but were in every other since were working toward that work were already that you know but were not yet had not yet arrived theologically may not have manifested itself yeah sincerely so so what happened what I'm seeing is is that because you know being a racist or being biased beak in on racial issues is sort of the unpardonable sin are one of the unpardonable sins in the church and people especially white people don't want to be considered a racist. They won't even take this and put this issue into the rest of their signification process. So in and I think that will give his people of color like yeah we we are already that, but we have the work this out.

Even now there is likely what you know we know it and note info before God. I righteous I'm seeing to the blood of Christ, but I'm still greedy but real working that out. I'm still prideful I'm working that out and not and I think one of these things issues with bias or even racism. That's like sort of subconscious.

We have to begin to engage that in the same way and because of you know we understand as Christians that were sort of working all the stuff out of us.

We had to have grace with each other and also you're saying speak truth as we see those sort of bias realities made manifest in our lives is essentially a stunt. So one thing to do is D exceptional lies. You know racism as a set as a sort of unique sin bringing into the things that we all, struggle with, then we can actually engage in your unit with the Scriptures as we do the rest of our junk exactly sure yet and so it's I think that's one of the things that we can begin to take from this moment, especially as the church begin to move forward in a very productive way.

There is a gal.

I share this video earlier on Facebook's document social media, and she affect American gal very conservative and then that when you first start watching the video, people get kind of taken aback by it because she's like okay honey talk to white people you need to start tell me the truth. I love lust, so you assume she's going in one direction what she was saying was that her name is Bev actually was able to get a hold of earlier today and when I ran the show soon what she was saying as hate just because we live in this charged environment. We talk about racism don't don't be afraid to tell me the truth about my own life of them offer something just because you're white and I'm black doesn't mean you can't speak the truth to me because we just assume gosh if I say if I bring up personal responsibility with Walter Strickland laughing American brother. He's got think because I'm a white guy talk about personal responsibility for people that happen to be in darker skin color that that's a racist comment, and then I'm Dick I'm denying all the other issues that are involved in. So I don't say anything yeah and I can make sense ultimate makes complete sense. It's also in line with something that we see out there in any university with no what critical theory or some like that when people are saying will people who are on the underside of the narrative. There didn't have a survey of moral high ground or their less likely to see things wrongly like bull centers right so you know I you my prone towards different sins that that might be the case that you know we we all fall short so you know, sinfully, but might manifest in different ways the Lord and his word have the moral high ground exactly rest of us were all hose yeah yeah and then you know it's it's it's it's so so it's it's funny that there's a sense in which you know I had to invite criticism in my life, especially from folks who are Caucasian you, you know, in the fall of some of my siblings combined but for people who know me and love me, you know III invite those those serve criticism of my own life while out of step with Scripture because I know that you know heard the Scripture on this is prone to wander, just as prone to be press into the mold of this world as they are, well, I've got a friend that started in all the Austin Powers movies because he looks exactly like Dr. evil Caleb Calhoun wrote he's actually a Facebook library knocking it. Caleb and he wrote a book called messy grace because he grew both of his parents, ended up declaring homosexuality's mom is living with her girlfriend as dad eventually came out later and so this whole notion of messy grace. He talked about the tension the Christian life and in truth and grace and all of that which was so inspiring to me. Thank you again Caleb for all your work on that got you. She is awesome but you have to get a beep. I said this to you a long time ago. I don't know if your premise. I think it might've been the three of us Yumi and Malika show together and I said okay I'm going to be willing to tell you exactly what I'm thinking and I'm gonna count on the grace that Christ placed in you to cut me some slack if you will, and allow me as I'm cooperating with two left feet.

Allow me to just kind of verbally process and work through these things and in and let's just do that for each other. That's why I think in and so I want to finish was only a few minutes left. What is that what is the call on the church in the midst of this, because I think oftentimes I rushed to the political. I rush to the Republican Democrat. I rushed to what's happening in the streets, and I kind of forget what are prophetic place is in this, but also above it. So what what would be your advice to all of us in the church. Black-and-white yeah I would I would say be bold were Scriptures bold and often times that might cut against an ideological group that you affiliate with either politically or if you're a part of some club. You don't even need at a university or college or it might and might you know sometimes you might speaking people say amen and other times my speaking.

I like what right if that's not happening to you.

That's a problem yeah because the Bible cuts left in the cuts right and right and so I think that that's it that's deathly something to work on another thing is to to is to lament these things that were saying. So glad you said and because I I I do think that if people are seen. You know what people think, or you know, subconscious through the thinking functioning lamenting I'm against police or unseen, lamenting I'm, you know, turning my back on my what it whatever it is I think we can lament with the Bible. Your biblical truth is transgressed. Yes, and we have to lament boldly in that in and be visible and then ask okay what can we do in the spheres tested earlier in the spheres of influence in God is given me to make change. So for example if your estate home parent note. How do you leverage your home you as as a means of bringing people together. How do you leverage or play dates. The only play with kids who are like right next door to you, which assumes a similar social economic status. Assume the similar this Ananda or do you get beyond that, or do you know then okay okay will perfect him and him and asked my friends who are it who are of a lesser social genetics as to my house will have to go to their house right exactly and so I know that you just invite yourself over but I'm sure there's a desire to what you're free to come but the assumption is that you wouldn't so meet and that if you're looking at you know some organization. If you have a small bit of authority or if you have control over the whole thing see how it is that by God's grace. You can search those things will take time to take time yet to Tacoma to those see what your responsibilities are and to see how is it that you can make that note context a place for more of God's children to flourish. I think that's the point in lamenting which one I was talking about earlier that I react to things the gospel hard I try to got me a long way. There I think that when you see this stuff happen black-and-white, we don't know what's going on looting and violence. Protests police brutality reality never ever let men down through the grace that I think that is our any of any mental or greatly altered great having you think again. This is the realm honestly know Michelle got going on talk again real soon and like my dad always said

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