The Jim Jackson Show: Ramona Shelburne

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Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Another week. Another Super Bowl has come and gone.

Maybe not like you wanted it, but it did happen. And no matter if it was a blowout or not, everybody tuned in to watch it. So, thanks for joining for another week of The Jim Jackson Show. You can follow us on IG at atjimjacksonshow. But also on YouTube, youtube.com, Rich Eisen.

You can follow us or any of the outlets that you download your podcast on. Listen, it's crazy week. Super Bowl, not the way we expected it. I love greatness. I love seeing greatness perform. I love seeing Patrick Mahomes kind of do his thing and Andy Reid.

But at times like we've seen before, with greatness comes a opportunity for someone to take advantage of. And that's what Philadelphia did. The Eagles came in, dominated the line defensively, offensively. Never allowed Kansas City to get comfortable. The story of Jalen Hurts all the way from Alabama to Oklahoma to where he is at now has been phenomenal. A redemption story for him, but also a redemption story for Saquon Barkley.

So, shout out. Congratulations to the Philadelphia Eagles and those two individuals in particular. It's been about a week maybe since the big trade. Everybody's talking about it.

And I'm gonna talk about a little bit more, but I'm gonna talk about the long-term effects. Kind of the business platform, the business mindset for both teams. Again, I said this in the last show that the long-term play for the Lakers is to get a succession plan in place. They tried that in the past post-Kobe with Chris Paul, but that didn't work when David Stern at the time nixed that plan. So, they got stuck kind of in this in-between space where they weren't that good post-Kobe. And they didn't want that to happen with LeBron. And I don't think they thought that AD at his age and his injury history could be that person that could carry the torch moving forward. So, look at the long-term. The short-term with Dallas right now with AD.

I know he got injured. What does that look like moving forward? Cap flexibility for Dallas in the short-term the next couple of years.

So, we're going to dive into that with a very good friend of mine, Ramona Shelburne. She's really tapped into the NBA on both sides, especially here in LA being a native of LA. So, we'll be able to talk about the business side, the thought process, the aftermath, and how does each team kind of look at their future short-term, long-term based around this deal. Talk a little bit about WNBA because I think the WNBA kind of kicked off this free agent frenzy, this trade frenzy with big-name superstars being moved to different franchises. And that kind of set the table for what we saw in an unprecedented trade deadline, a trade scenario for the NBA, one of which we haven't, I don't think, seen in the NBA with the number of superstars who got moved.

But it was kicked off, I think, by a lot of what happened with the WNBA. So, we'll touch upon that and a couple more items. But I appreciate you tuning in. We're going to have a great show, a lot of insight. Can't wait for our interview with Ramona coming up. As promised, good friend Ramona Shelburne here to talk a little WNBA, a little NBA, a couple trades, the postseason. We'll talk about all things basketball kind of related. First of all, how are you?

How was your Super Bowl Sunday? You know what? We had a bunch of sick kids. I got a six-year-old, six-year-old.

So, they just bring home all kinds of things. And like, you know, we're trying to watch the game, but it's like, it was a terrible game, wasn't it? I mean, like, the halftime show was good, you know? Like, the game was kind of boring. I know.

I know. I'm a Steelers fan. So, to me, it was like this. I couldn't lose.

One, I love greatness. So, I don't get tired of greatness, but I was really pulling for Jalen Hurts and Saquon for different reasons. When Jalen was in school and went from Alabama to Oklahoma, I loved how he handled the whole situation. It spoke a lot to his character.

He really didn't go back and go out of Alabama for not playing or wanting to leave. He handled everything with grace, and that says a lot about him and his character, but it was also his family. But also, a lot of the stuff he endured up to this point in Philadelphia, despite accomplishing a lot of things. And the same can be said with Saquon leaving New York, how he handled the situation. He could have easily tried to rub it in their face on the last game of the season to go out and break Eric Dickerson's single-season rushing record by playing in that game. But he didn't, and that says a lot to me about the young men. So, I was extremely happy for not only just the Philadelphia organization and the squad, but those two individuals in particular.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I've always been a Jalen Hurts person, because I'm for the same reason. There's just so few times in life where people take a demotion like that in such a healthy way, right? He doesn't talk, and he's not out there pounding his chest about the haters. People didn't believe in him. He just went and worked. I appreciate that humility and that attitude.

Yeah, let the word speak for itself. And as we transition, it's been a busy week. And I'm going to touch on a couple of different things, but I think it was kicked off earlier, less than a month ago, I think it was with the WNBA trades and kind of the names that were involved, not just the trades, but the movements with Kelsey Plum going from the Aces to the Sparks, Chelsea going, I mean, Jewel Lord going to the Aces. Vanna Vanna slew going back to Chicago. Yeah, Chicago, you know, from New York, a lot of things. So that's ready.

Greiner going from the going to Atlanta. Hold up. Yeah. A a kind of a sentimental part is Natasha Howard going back to Indiana where she started and why that's why that's sentimental. She's from Toledo, Ohio. Her father and I grew up playing against each other's school.

Williams, her father was younger than me. So I try to follow that. Zaya Cook is from Toledo now with the spark. So I try to keep up with my girls, my female athletes who come from Toledo to make sure I keep my eye on it. So that transition us into what we saw with the NBA. And first, before I get into jumping into it, have you seen a time in your coverage, both WNBA and NBA, where the names itself, these the magnitude of this, these trades have taken place? I know sometimes it happens at the end of the season, but during the course of the season with the big time names that were involved, have you seen this before? You mean the WNBA or the rate or the both?

Okay. So in the WNBA, I've never seen like a free agency that went down like this, where you had giant stars changing teams and being traded for each other. Like I remember a couple of years ago, I was reporting on Candace Parker going from the Sparks to the Chicago sky. Remember she went home to Chicago because the rules in the WNBA make it hard for, for, for ladies to change teams.

Right. They have these core rules. And when the team cores you, like you have to basically ask for a trade, like you can resign, but they'll trade you. Um, and teams, ladies haven't really done that as much, right? They, they haven't moved quite as much. They've stayed where they are. And it's almost like a true, it's starting to become a true free agency. It's not quite there yet because the new CBA is going to get there next year. So everybody's signing one year deals right now. There's going to be a lot more money. We're still talking like, you know, the difference between what one offer is like one team will give you 110 and one team will give you 185. Okay. So that's not like life-changing money.

I mean, it's good. It's a, it's a big difference, but it's not life changing. Next year in the new CBA, we might see real life changing money kind of differences where right now I still think players are picking the best situation for them. You know, the money matters, but the best situation in terms of, you know, how the organization is set up facilities, resources, teammates, but also chance to win comfortability in the, in the, in the cities, even, even stuff like the team marketing deals that, that, that some franchises have set up and others don't, I still think those matter a lot.

Whereas next year, you're going to start seeing the money matter. And I think that'll be really fascinating for the WAA plus I think, I think these core rules, um, you know, I get why they're in place because, you know, fan base is like loyalty and they want to latch on to certain players and stuff. But I think the league is going to graduate to a place where the players are going to start having a lot more power. And, um, I think it'll be good for the league. I think it'll be good for the individual players because they need to make a lot more money.

We've been seeing this with unrivaled, like everybody playing. There's making two 50, some of that, some of them are making even more than that. That's, that's a lot more than they make in the WNBA and unrivaled is just, you know, a six week thing. So I think, um, there's money there. The new broadcast deal kicks in next year and that's going to be fun to watch because, um, uh, like the, you know, you saw Indiana, like they're loading up trying to surround Kaitlin Clark with some talent. Exactly. This isn't just, this is possible.

Now people want to go play with her. Um, you saw, you saw the, these are the ACEs where they go and get a replacement right for Blum. You get Joel Lloyd, who's been a leading scorer in this league. That's going to be a hot team. You can saw the sparks go from a lottery team. I mean, I guess we call it a lottery, right?

They have the numbers you pick in the draft. So now you got Kelsey Blum on your team and like, they look like they might be able to build faster because they were able to sign a free agent. And she wasn't, she was Kelsey Blum had been cored by the ACEs. Right. And the fact that she's able to move is a real, that's a real change in the WNBA that we see in the last, this year.

And especially the last couple of years. What do you think? And you go back to what you said, you said that, you know, a player basically had to be traded, but then that same instance, it's loyalty to the fan base, to the organization trying to win as the money now circulates through the WNBA at a higher rate. Yeah. You're going to start, you're saying you're going to start to see players.

Okay. Now it's like, okay, I understand the loyalty and all that, but this is where I want to go. The player empowerment part is about to begin when that money kicks in. Now on that too, I know the union and the WNBA went back in and wanted to open it back up for further negotiations. Was that also for, to get a little bit more money out of that because of the TV deals in order for that money to now trickle down to the players in the WNBA?

Yeah. And I, and I think they will, um, in this next deal, I think they, you know, it's not good for the league when there's a work stoppage. So I think, you know, they were, they couldn't do that this year. I mean, I, you know, they, they need some time and they, et cetera, but I think it's the WNBA is going to look vastly different next year. Cause now it's year two of the Kaitlin Clark effect, right? It's year two of, um, really highly competitive basketball, much more parody throughout the league.

Um, there's, you know, there's, there's going to be teams like, you know, obviously I think the Valkyries are going to have a hard time. That's the expansion team this year up in San Francisco. And, um, I kind of feel like, I understand why the league gives them the fifth pick.

That's sort of, that's precedent. You know, you give the expansion team after the first four lottery picks. Then that's when the expansion team gets a pig. Um, that's tough that, you know, usually you want to start a franchise with like a, a, a huge player. Um, and then also in free agency because of the core system. But so like, because, you know, anybody who's really good, right? Like Kelsey plum and, and, you know, some of the big name free agents, they're probably just going to resign, but with the, with the core, they can, you know, they can get court and then they can be asked to, to go someplace. But if they're gonna ask to go someplace and everybody's basically going to offer them a max offer, now you're just picking between the best situation where it, so Valkyries are never going to be the best situation because they just for forum, they, their, their team came to an expansion draft, but. You know how the warriors run things up in San Francisco, right? Like if they, if they're able to get more money, get more assets, get more draft, I mean, like, you know, just thinking about like a poker game, you're sitting at the table and you're low stacked. You know, you're the, you're the little stack, but next year they'll start having more money to throw at people. And that could really shift the balance of power. If, if you see how it organizations run, how well they're supported, I mean, they sold out their games already. Um, and so at the chase center, that's going to be an incredible environment for women's basketball.

No, I love to see it. And it's, it's, it's funny and not in a funny way, but that that set the tone for what happened in the NBA. We have a number of big name players, not just a Luca ad, but the Jimmy Butler, you know, you got Darren Fox going and Zach Levine going and all this movement. Unbelievable. I mean, unreal. And I haven't seen it in my years, that number because usually during the trade deadline, it's a few here, few there, a guy may get traded, but then they really wait to the off season to kind of really push the leverage and chips in. But here's what I want to talk about with the, the Luca ad.

We didn't dissect it kind of a lot of stuff. We know apple to apple basketball wise. It doesn't make sense player wise because of the age difference in the upside with Luca, but the business side to me is very important. And I don't think people really understand this longterm goals for the Los Angeles Lakers by having a Luca, their international first international player, big time growing and building around him. Short-term with ad going to Dallas, new ownership, stay in the competitive championship fast lane. If you're going to make a trade, you do it with somebody, you know, I arrived police to keep it quiet for, for as we move forward and kind of go through this relationships matter to me.

It seems to me you had fray relationships on both side in Dallas. You got Luca J kid over here ownership and I mean J kid Nico ownership here. Luca over here and maybe an LA ad not on the same page with JJ Reddick and that as a business owner, you're always going that extra mile to pursue your passions. So you deserve partners who can help you go further with premium benefits and rewards. The American express business platinum card offers world-class business and travel benefits. So you can get more for your business wherever it takes you with the Amex business platinum card, you can earn 1.5 times membership rewards points on select business purchases, and you can get complimentary access to more than 1400 airport lounges worldwide, including the centurion lounge. So you can keep running your business while you're on the go. See how the Amex business platinum card gives business owners like you the tools and rewards to do more of what you love. Terms and points can't apply.

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Limited availability only through participating Hyundai dealers in select markets. What's next for both of these? And let's dig into the business side for Dallas, first of all.

New ownership, what's your thought process on why they did this business-wise? Three hundred and fifty four million dollars. I got to say. But they're billionaires, though. I mean. I know.

Mira Mendes is 32 billion. I know. Yeah, because they keep their money. That's right.

OK, so I really think that I really think that they looked at that supermax that they were going to have to pay him. And we're not we're not comfortable saying we're going to we're going to tie all that money up in him for the next five to seven years. Right.

Because that's what it is. The five year extension this summer off of what he still has. OK, so it's really seven. Yeah.

Right. It's well, I guess six. But when you count that, when you get to the summer, but that's you know, he's 25. You know, he's going to be 30 by the end of that 30, 31 by the end of that deal. And I really think that, you know, if you're going to invest that much money, I mean, that'd be the largest contract in NBA history by far. I mean, obviously, Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown aside, 300 deals.

But the way you get that money is that you have to be a lottery pick. Then you have to assign Max extension after Max extension and then you have to resign with your current team. These rules were put in place to incentivize players to resign with their current teams. But now you're seeing a reaction on the team side to say it's too much. It's too much money.

It's a percentage of the cap. And as great as Luca is, the Mavericks decided that with his with his habits, they did not feel they were not comfortable paying him that much money and wondering if he would age well with that. Now, that's you know, if you want to use a financial term, they're shorting him. They're taking that they're taking the hedge on Luca. OK, they're they're betting their short term future with A.D. and Kyrie against Lucas long term with the Lakers. We'll see if they're right.

You know, there's there's other teams that have bet against Luca in the past and rue the day. Phoenix Suns drafted DeAndre Aydin. Right. You know, like Marvin Bagley. Right. You know, there's there's there's teams that have passed on him. He was the number five pick, if you remember.

Right. He was trading back to Dallas. And there's a lot of teams that, you know, didn't think he was athletic enough that he didn't know if his game would translate, whatever.

Clearly, they were wrong. He is an amazing, true generational, transformational player. It bonafide international superstar. But what you you know, you and I, I don't know how old you are. I'm in my mid 40s.

Like, I can't get away with the things with that. Fifty four. You're 54. Wow.

OK, you got 54. I'm 45. So we flip that around. But, you know, there's things I could get away with in my 20s and 30s that I can't get away with now. You know, like I used to be able to pull all night. There's no problem when you need that story. I'll stay up all night. Sure. I got you.

You know, like, you know, you go and you go and you now I do that knocks me out for a week. I feel terrible. Right. And I think that I think the Mavs just felt like if we're going to give that much money to a player, he's got to be the guy. He's got to be exactly who we want him to be.

And I look, you can they might be wrong and they got to own it. But I'll say this about Nico Harrison and I I've known him for 20 years because he was Kobe Bryant's guy. I knew him back then. I've known him since he's been a GM. First of all, the man trust his gut. You know, he he decided to take a swing and go get Kyrie Irving when no one else wanted to take a chance on Kyrie because he knew him. And he felt like if you put him in the environment they had created there, he would thrive and succeed. And he has been absolutely right about that one. He gave up what a lot of people said were too much for Daniel Gafford or P.J. Washington last year.

They ended up being pieces to the finals run. So he trusts his gut. He's been right.

This one is a gut call here. And I will I I'm not I understand how Mavs feel. Mavs fans feel.

I understand. Oh, you know, I was here in L.A. when the Dodgers traded away all of my favorite players. You know, Fox bought the team. They traded Mike Piazza. Right.

We were all like Mike Piazza. That's our guy. Right. You know, I get it like I understand the fan life and the band feeling and all that.

And so they're going to be mad. But the one thing I will give him credit for, and I think that people are missing here, that man stood up there and owned it. That man stood up there and wore it. He did that press. He flew to Cleveland the day before the trade because he knew it was about to go down. Said, I need to be around the team.

He made sure he did a press conference. He said he explained why he did what he did. You may not like it. You may. You can judge whether he was empathetic or not.

You can, you know, you know how the fans feel. But he owned it and he wore it. And it's very uncomfortable for him right now in his family. You know, I don't condone anybody making threats against people's families, no matter how unpopular a decision is. That's not right.

And, you know, it's like to me in the Game of Thrones, remember one of the opening scenes? It's like if you decide you're going to if you're going to send someone to death, you swing the sword yourself. Don't make somebody else do it, you know, to make somebody else do it. Right. You know, I'm with you. I'm with you on that. You know, I respect him for doing that.

Now, you know, you're going to have to wear it for a long time. This is going to you know, this is a short play and long play for both teams. But it cost Luca a lot of money. That's the thing people don't realize. Like Luca was three fifty four with the Mavericks is two twenty nine with the Lakers.

I can do that math. That's over one hundred million dollars difference. OK. And the Lakers for them, I mean, obviously you're betting against his short term and his long term. You're going to say, OK, you know, we don't care if he's not in the best shape or doesn't tuck his jersey in or yells at the refs or whatever.

Like he's still Luca Magic. Right. And they need a star and and they're going to just bet on that. But they also don't have to sink three fifty into it.

All they got to do twenty four twenty nine. That's a really big difference. Yeah. Here's the funny thing, Ramona, is that you hit on a number of great points.

One, I think with with Nico and I've been knowing Nico a long time. Yeah. I think he can confidently, confidently go into that press conference with his chest out knowing that he had the back. Yeah. The ownership had his back, first and foremost. So you don't make a deal like this in the vacuum without having ownership being on board.

Oh, yeah. Because I think I think ownership and Adelson family, they're bigger pitchers, the business side. They didn't draft Luca. Mark Cuban, they bought the team from they kind of took away a lot of his day to day operations. Even though at the beginning it was that he was going to run the day that no slowly got away from that. So they're coming in here from what their business model is for the Mavericks.

And it may not entail what it was, you know, in the past. And they're able to deal with that. They said, look, the long term play for us is a we'll deal with some of the backlash short term to reach our long term goal, whatever that is. And by empowering Nico to do that, he can step out there and take all the hits, even though a lot of unnecessary because you said this. Nico looked great for being able to get a Kyrie to change his perception and how he played and how he was viewed by getting Gafford, by make PJ Washington. He was looked at this genius to bring to bring this team to get them to a championship.

And then all of a sudden he's going to make a decision like this that makes no sense. Yeah. And I understand where that met me. I spent five and a half years in Dallas. That's where I matured as a young man. I understand the vitriol and the way the fans feel. But you got to keep in mind. Is not Nico by himself and why this deal went down, its ownership, being able to say, this is what I agree upon.

This is where we want to go. And Nico had the tool because of that relationship with Rob Palenka to keep this thing under wraps. He couldn't take it out to the market without finding out that's DLA. OK, so so like, you know, let me let me present you with the alternative. OK, OK. Let's say that they had decided internally between Nico J. Kidd and the ownership, et cetera. Michael Finley's there, you know, Dirk, they probably would have looked in human. There would have been a big debate internally. Should we should we give Luca the supermax? Should we do that? If we're not going to give him the supermax, then how are we going to play this?

OK, we're going to trade him. You know what some franchise would have done? They would have started leaking bad stuff on him. They would have started putting a bad story out here and there. They would have started to tarnish his reputation a little bit with a fan base.

They would. You know, we've seen this happen in the NBA. You have you've been around.

I've been around. So you could have seen that slow drip of teams of information coming out, trying to kind of assail his character, trying to tarnish his reputation. The franchise that could have, you know, all the whatever skeletons are in the closet, they would have started coming out little by little.

What does that do? That depresses his value, that tarnishes his reputation with the franchise, that makes fans not like him rather than not like the franchise. And I think it I think it takes the season.

So now if you're if you're Luca and you start seeing these kind of stories coming out, you start seeing this type of information coming out, you're feeling betrayed. You're feeling upset and your chance to win this year and defend your Western Conference championship and going to the finals is history. Now, most friends, I would say 90 percent of franchises would probably choose that route because they would not want to incur the kind of wrath that the Dallas Mavericks are incurring right now from their fans. They would make the fans hate the player, not hate the team. I've seen this and a lot in my 20 years covering the NBA. And I think that sucks.

I think that's why you got a point. You know, look, you brought up the Aaron Fox. OK, I feel like in Sacramento, they you know, he never asked for a trade. They never asked them to trade him. He just said, I'm not ready to sign a long term extension. OK, he knew that would force the franchise to think, should we keep him?

Should we not? But when Mike Brown got fired, one of the last public things that people saw was, you know, was was Mike Brown calling out the Aaron Fox on a defensive adjustment. And, you know, and basically, you know, the next day he gets fired at the end of a game, right?

They lose that game. He gets fired. And, you know, I wrote a story about that. I talked to De'Aaron and he kept talking to me about, you know, hey, I really like Mike. We had a really good relationship. He sent me a grade after every practice.

I wanted him to be hard on me. Like he he had a good relationship with Mike Brown. And yet because of the way that went down and because no one has spoken publicly about why they fired Mike Brown, it stuck to him. Like fans thought, well, maybe De'Aaron got Mike fired with the franchise. I don't think that was the case at all.

No, I don't think that was the case at all. I think there might have been some other players that were OK. I don't think anybody rushed in and said, fire him. But I think there might have been some other players that were more OK with that. But why let that stick to De'Aaron if you're trying to keep him and talk him into staying?

And now the way they traded him, he never asked for a trade. Let's keep putting it out there. They made an independent decision to say, now's the time. Let's just do this.

If we're not if we're not if he's not going to sign long term, let's just do this. Totally fair on their part. I think it's a smart move.

Well, you can decide or debate whether they got the right return. I think they did a good job. I think that means a good player. I really I really like Zach. He's had a good year. And, you know, they they were able to kind of clean up some of their some of their their cap situation. And I think, you know, and I think they'll be able to compete for a while with that with that franchise.

I think he'll fit right alongside Savonas. But, you know, I think some fans in Sacramento probably are wondering, did De'Aaron ask out? He did not ask out. Right. Right. Right. But now instead of people hating the franchise, now they hate the player.

Yeah. And that's the thing, too. Again, I think and I'm a transition to the Lakers side of this, too, because I just believe that. And that's two prime examples from an ownership perspective on how things were handled. I just truly believe the bigger picture from the Adelson family because they made their money from the gambling side of it, that they looked at Dallas, Texas as a bigger play. The Mavericks are a piece of that puzzle.

They're not the end all be all. This is Mark Cuban. You'll never have this conversation because he's not getting rid of Luke talking about the gambling, the casino situation. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. And again, what people don't understand is that you have to change the constitution there in Texas for legalized sports gambling. The assembly only meets every two years. So they didn't get it this year. So you got another two years before they can go back in. They're going to lobby the whole time to get, you know, the constitution play change and to get this done.

But you got two more years now. OK, so their big picture is that now for the Lakers, a couple of things stand out to me. One, they still got to sell Luca that the long term plan is to be here.

OK, and how we're going to build out the roster around you. Second, what does this say about them being comfortable moving on whether LeBron knew or not about the trade? You know, Rich Paul is an agent that orchestrated a lot of this stuff, too. But what does it say about the front office being more comfortable and confident to make a trade like this? And let's say they didn't inform LeBron. What does that say about them and them moving forward?

I mean, past, you know, LeBron kind of had this control over the franchise. So since we're talking poker, I don't know. You play hold them. You know how this goes. I got one rule when I'm going all in. I want it to be me moving my chips in the middle of Kyle or I want to have it set up to where I want someone to put me all in.

Like, I'm I'm pretending like I'm weak, but I want someone to put me all in because I know I got pocket because, you know, you got it right. Right. I don't want to be calling somebody else's all in unless I know I got the nuts.

Right. Like, I don't want to know. I don't want to know. I don't want to be like, oh, man, should I? I don't know. It's my whole tournament.

Should I call it? No. If you got to think about it, you probably don't want to do it. OK. So to me, this is the Lakers going all in on their terms. This is them saying we're not going to get caught in the wilderness like we did after Kobe retired.

OK. When Kobe retired, they had a succession plan. It was called Chris Paul. Chris Paul was supposed to be their next guy. They traded for him in 2011. He was twenty five years old.

Same age as Luka Doncic. What happened to that? David Stern nixed it.

OK. He was the owner of the Pelicans. He was acting as commissioner and owner of the Pelicans.

The timing on that was terrible. The Lakers and the Pels and the Rockets didn't wait for that meeting in New York to be over. And by the time that leaked out, every owner was on their phone typing off, you know, angry emails to David Stern. They all had a chance to do something about it. I think if that waits another day, I think that might go through. There's also some debate about whether David Stern ever signed off on that or knew about it enough before it got to the finish line.

Eventually, we will do a 30 for 30 on that, I'm sure. But, you know, to me, to me, the real story is the Lakers learned from the big trades and the big issues of their past in the succession plan. The succession plan with Kobe didn't work out. And they spent six years in the lottery.

Six years. That does not happen to the Lakers. They never they have never had seasons that bad for that long. Kobe's last three years and three years after Kobe retired.

And so they never want to do that again. LeBron came and saved them. He came out of the he came out, you know, from Cleveland, Ohio, and said, I'll be the next phase of the franchise. Now, did they get the best LeBron? They got the last best LeBron.

Okay. They got his historic moments passing Kareem. They got a title out of it. I mean, he's been any everything they wanted and then some.

I don't think anybody thought he'd still be this good at age 40. But, you know, they did not want to be left in the wilderness like they were after Kobe retired. And this was their opportunity to do something about it now. And, you know, better one year too early than one year too late. Right. Right. If A.D. was going to be the guy, I think we would have already known.

Right. If he was going to be the base of the franchise, he surely would have been a good guy to build around. But he's getting older. He's in injury history and he's getting more expensive. And so I think, you know, there was a chance they would have had to trade A.D. anyway and not get the kind of return that they just got. And so to me, the Lakers, that's a no brainer.

The only thing they have to worry about is convincing Luka to stay and whether or not he's going to stay healthy. I think a year around LeBron, watching the way he works, his habits, you know, you know, look, I have so much respect for Nikolay Jokic. And I remember a couple of years ago when they went to the finals, I did a story on, you know, when he really got serious about his training and his body.

It was the year they lost to Portland in a seven game series. Remember that? And kind of ran out of gas. You know, he walked into the coach's office afterwards and he said, you know, guys, this one's on me. I ran out of gas in that second half.

I'm never going to let that happen again. And from that point forward, he came back in the best shape of his life. And I remember, I remember saying that, remember during COVID you saw pictures of Jokic and you're like, Oh my God, who is that guy?

He lost so much weight and like, you couldn't believe how much weight he lost. And it was like, you know, I think he did all these things like, you know, just down to like, I remember his guy, you know, Felipe Eichenberger, he's a trainer there. Felipe was telling me like, you know, Jokic used to play video games late at night and he would like snack while he's doing that.

And he's like, I just got him some fidget sticks. Like, you know, so instead of like eating while he's playing video games, he doesn't eat at night, you know, like just stuff like that. But like that man committed to fitness, committed to his diet and he's completely changed his game and elevated his game. At some point, Luka Dontic will have to do the same thing, but he's 25.

I mean, how many cheeseburgers are 25 too, right? Big time pizza. But the thing I love about Jokic is not only did he make the commitment to lose the weight, he stayed with that commitment to keep it down and understand. He understands. And I think I would love one day for Embiid, if Embiid ever committed to being in shape, those soft tissue injuries and everything to me would dissipate.

He'd be so much more effective. And Luka, he has something or somebody that he can look at in LeBron. And again, it got to be internal.

It has to be something he wants to do. Like Jokic said, I take full responsibility of this is on me because I burnt out. And Luka has been so good for so long, kind of like Zion, at playing the way he wanted to at his weight, that it clouds kind of the vision, understanding the long term. Short term, you can get away with it at a time. Long term, as you go through this career, and now it begins to, and we see it with Zion, it begins to pull on you a little bit.

And Luka with that continuing calf injury, soft tissue, I hope that while he's there, that now he can see it. And again, we bow for 25 ones. People tell us things we need to do.

When you play softball at Stanford, people will tell you things you need to do. But until you actually went through it and matured enough mentally to see it yourself, you couldn't make the change until you saw it. I know. And also, for me, it didn't happen for me until after I had kids. And I had my first son. And all of the unhealthy things I used to do and be able to get away with, I couldn't get away with it anymore. I had a little baby I had to take care of.

And then during COVID, that's when my back went out. Okay. So it's normally for women, a lot of times you have a baby and then you get all stretched out. Right. And then you come back together and you don't come back together the right way. Right.

Right. You get all big. And so it's very common for women to have back problems when their kid is about one years old. And like for me, it was, you know, I had a C-section, so that like destroyed my core. You know, they cut into your core. And after like a year and a half or so after my son was born, that's when I started having sciatica.

Ended up needing, I tried to do PT, I tried to lose weight. You know, it was during COVID, it was a weird time. So people didn't see me going through it, but that's why I didn't go to the bubble because I literally couldn't. There's no way I could, I couldn't even sit. Like, you know, have you ever had sciatica? Yeah, but I haven't had it to the point where it stopped me. I've had it where it's been, you know, it impacted me, but not a longer duration part of it where it's just stay with me. And I really had to go see a doctor for it.

Yeah. So mine was like, it was like debilitating, like could not function, couldn't even sit in the chair. Like, you know, there's no, I could, I had to lay down or stand up and even, and even that wasn't comfortable. So I remember hearing Ben Simmons talk about his back and I was like, oh, I know what that, I know what that feels like, you know?

And whenever I hear that, I'm like, oh, I know where they are. And, and so for me, that was my wake up call. Like, okay, listen, you got a little kid now. I wanted to have another baby. You got to get, you got to get back in shape. You got to get strong, be that athlete you used to be, get strong, whatever it takes. You, you can't keep living like this because it's going to happen again. You're going to have another back surgery. Something else will go out your knees or whatever.

And it's like, it's hell like, and I remember my surgeon told me this, this is such a like words to live by in your life. Okay. So people come to see him and then they don't, you know, they don't, they don't hear from them again. They have a good meeting, you know, I go, what happened?

He goes, oh, they're just not enough pain yet. Right. Right. Right. Keep it real simple with that one. Right.

Keep it real simple. The doc is like, he knows, you know, he'll go home and they're like, yeah, it hurts. But when it gets real bad, you don't have a choice. You don't have a choice. No, you got to do it. And so like, I think that's how most change happens is like you just, it has to come from within. Yeah, sure.

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See store or sleep number dot com for details. You know, like something has to hurt enough to get you to. And I think I think Luca losing. And then now from an ego perspective, ego knowing that he never leave Dallas unless he was on. It was his own choice that I think gives him a different mindset to be able to prove to himself and to the Mavericks he's going to have that. He's going to have that against ownership, Nico, Jake, whatever it is. Oh, yeah. And I think that will catapult him where we see a different Luca Doncic. I'm talking about this year.

I'm talking about I think we'll see something different from now to the end of the year, whenever that ends for the Lakers and carry for. But I mean, that's that's great insight. Ramona, I knew you being out here on the ground, kind of digging into the weeds, kind of understand. Again, me, it's a bigger picture.

It's a business side. So I really want to address that. But the funny thing I want to address, too, is we were off air talking about and I said, you and Katie, yeah, you're good, right?

I have always been good. And I think like the thing is, like, I really know Kevin from a media perspective. I don't know him the way his friends know him or, you know, whatever. But but like last time I saw him, we talked for a half hour. We were like, you know, we walked out and talked after the Christmas game. We've talked after his comments like, you know, we you know, I didn't take it personally.

I thought he was kind of standing up for his teammates, you know, basically saying, no, our locker room is not toxic. Like, you know, it's easy to say that if you're not here every day and if you're not here every day and you don't see it, you know. And he also if you actually this is the thing that bothered me about modern media, OK, like nobody actually listens to what anybody actually says. Nobody listens to the full quote. Nobody listens to what I actually said.

Nobody reads or actually wrote. They just see the little headline or the little tweet or the aggregated thing. I mean, we all talk about aggregation.

What what is aggregation? Somebody has one clip quote, a quote, a nugget or whatever. It's recycled so many times over. The context is stripped away of it. I thought what I thought what Kevin said, his criticism of what my my point was totally fair. I would have said the same thing myself. In fact, I did say the same thing myself when I talked to people in Phoenix about it. I was like, you know what? You guys are right.

Like, yes, I talked to a dozen people in Phoenix and I felt very good at saying that. I didn't even think it was a stretch to say it's been a toxic environment there. I probably shouldn't have said locker room because that put that more on the guys, which I didn't mean.

It's just isolated. Only the players, not management, not coach, nothing else. It was all players. And I think that's where he got it at, too. Yeah. I think that's where it hit.

It hit a different way. But the truth is, like, I've been around the Suns a few times this year. Early in the season, I thought they seemed happy. It was a breath of fresh air when Bud and his staff came in there. I thought they all were like hyped for the season. I saw them preseason and early on in L.A. I went out there on Christmas and I was like, whoa, what has happened in this locker room?

Like, it seemed very different, like a very different mood. But also the last six weeks, all I've been doing is calling about how, you know, what's going on with Bradley Beal. They benched him, they benched Nurkic. They're trying to trade him. He doesn't want to be traded.

That doesn't fit. His wife's getting yelled at by people in the stands. And they tried to Luca KD, you know, like they traded, you know, putting him in trade talks without, without really telling him. He found out, you know, kind of just through chatter that that didn't feel good, especially because Kevin wanted to stay in Phoenix. Kevin was happy. He was Kevin didn't want to go anywhere. No, he gave Matt Ishby a vote of confidence.

Like I just wrote a story a few weeks ago. Kevin went on the record basically saying, I'm here to try to figure this out. I'm in it for the long run. I appreciate Matt continuing to invest in our team and giving us chances. Like that is the biggest vote of confidence that he could have given them. So, you know, I think he felt a little blindsided by his name coming up in trade talks. The rest of the team is feeling that, you know, when people are losing, they, you know, they went from being, they had a hot start and then they've, they've kind of lost.

They've lost their way. They've they're, they're, they're trying hard, but it's been a, you know, to me, the word toxic was fine to describe the situation that we're in. My mistake was just isolate, just the locker room locker room. Yeah. Cause that's, that's, that was not about the guys. The guys, as far as I'm, as far as I hear the guys actually get along very well.

Right. And so Katie took it as like, you know, say something about the guy, but all he ever did was say, it's hard for media to judge the tenor of the locker room. Cause you're only in here for 45 minutes and you don't see everybody's getting taped or whatever. But he mentioned you though, but he, but he mentioned you and that drew more attention to it because of he mentioned you, but I, but then he expounded on and didn't just isolate you.

And he talked about media Ramona. I think the difference is like when they interviewed Tim McMahon off of a Phoenix loss, I think it was a Utah, somebody got blew out and he was talking about how the locker room was and how down it was. What is hard to compare that because at that time, when you lose big, like that were expectations, the locker room is going, you guys don't want to talk afterwards and the mood is going to be different. So that's kind of an unfair assessment at that time, unless you've been in every locker room and it's been a particular pattern every time.

That's that's when you can utilize that. So I'm glad you cleared that up. Cause I know that Kevin respects you as a reporter and kind of what you do. And I think that again, not listening to the bigger conversation and what he had and what he said was more protecting the players more so than directing anything at you.

So I appreciate you. I actually think the fact that he used my name is what made it feel like people interpreted that as personal. Yeah.

Personally, I felt like his, his criticism there was fair. And you know, when you're on TV, people are going to hear it. Like I felt like I was describing a situation that people would very honest, like having talked to so many people in Phoenix, like was fine. I didn't even think what I said was out out there, but he used my name because we know each other.

Yeah. He didn't use my name because we don't know each other. He didn't use my name because he was trying to put me on blast. Like when he wants to put you on blast, we've seen Kevin put people on blast. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and so I actually, what I like about Kevin is that Kevin tells you how he feels and he's not afraid to put his name on things.

Like he's not in the shadows. Like he, and, and he's also like, he's also communicative. Like you can talk to things about, you can talk with Kevin about something. He's open to listening. He's open to listening. Right.

Okay. And for me too, like this should be a two way street. This is always what I've said about reporters and players. And, and so much of what I think happens in our, in our media landscape is that we're not having direct conversations anymore or, or we are having a direct conversation, but then it gets chopped up everywhere else or something you say lands wrong with somebody, but that's not quite what you meant. And what he, you know, like, I don't think he meant to say lazy.

He wouldn't call me lazy. Like it's just a word that came out of his mouth and people woo, right. And I was like, no, I know what he's saying.

But let's, let's be real. This man got put in an awkward situation by, by the management of his team. And I actually think his press conference yesterday when he scored 30,000 points, he's one of only seven players in NBA history to get them. The press conference we're talking about was the day before this. But I felt like he could have put the organization on blast. He could have, you know, gone and wore gasoline on that fire.

Okay. But he didn't, but he didn't. His, his aim and his comments was to be a good teammate.

His aim was to settle things down. Like you could, you could tell he was trying to be like, Hey, I'm still going to play. I'm not, I'm going to ball out. We'll see what happens the rest of the year. We'll see what happens in summer.

But he was, he was letting everybody know that he was still in it. Like, you know, if I gotta be a little collateral damage there, that's fine. We talk about you guys. You can talk about us.

That's fine. I'm, you know, I've been doing this for a while and I also know him and we know each other and we have a good relationship. You know, we still do.

We've talked since then. I didn't think it was, I didn't think it was anything to it. And so whatever, you know, sometimes the aggregation cycle makes them say that they're not like, it was the same thing.

Like a couple of years ago in the finals, remember Eric Sposter was like, Hey, to the untrained eye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I walked around like, should I lean into this one?

Untrained eye over here. I was like, I don't know. Jeff, I'm done. He was saying that during the whole broadcast too, but okay. You know, but the truth is like, it's fine. He called me that night. He was like, sorry, man.

I didn't mean for that to come across like that. I was at the end of the press conference, you know, he was trying to get up. But also he didn't want to give your kids bulletin more material. And I asked him a little too little too close to the truth. Right.

And so he didn't want to he didn't want to lean into that conversation. And so like every once in a while, you're going to get one of those. And like, you know, the player, the coach, they have an agenda they're trying to do. And I mean, agenda in a good way, you know, for SPO. It was like, I don't want to make locker room for for locker, you know, billboard material for Jokic. Right.

After they won that game in Denver. And for Katie, it's like, I'm just trying to put the cap back on the bottle so we can finish the season out strong. So, yeah, see, but, you know, the difference, though, you said this, Ramona?

Yeah. How the Lakers handled it and kept it in compared to once he got out by Phoenix. The more teams you talk to, it brought you to this point where it was an uneasiness. And now Kevin Durant answer, answer all these questions. And the rest of the players have to answer these questions because they started to put it, even though they, you know, they honestly did. They know they don't want to trade Kevin Durant, but he's their only asset there to really to not get rid of a book, a book book book.

We'll get a lot, but they don't want to get rid of because they don't want to get that's why I said he's a long time leading scorer. Twenty seven, twenty eight. He's not doing OK, so before you get out of here, I wanted I wanted to ask you because you're a big advocate, especially for women's sports and in the equality part of women's sports. Again, that's not saying that the women got to get paid the same as the equality part. And in being able to have the voice, the Nike commercial that was ran at the Super Bowl, first time Nike did a commercial since nineteen ninety seven, all female director. I think it was writer producer, but also with Sakari Richardson.

It was Sabrina Ionescu, Caitlin Clark, Asia, to name a few. What was your take? You know, it's back and forth in, you know, the Twitter sphere and social media, kind of what the commercial really was saying. Did it help women?

Did it hurt women? What's your thoughts on? Well, I mean, I think I think I love that women's sports is in the cultural zeitgeist right now. You know, like I love that it's front and center, but it's finally for the right reasons.

Like it's not a one off story. And so, you know, I think like to me, like I like I watch women's basketball a lot is like the truth. Like to me, Asia Wilson is is like she should be a way bigger star in our in our world. Like I don't have people who don't realize this Asia and who she really is like like that. You know, like she should win MVP every year as far as I'm concerned, like she's that good.

And so Sha'Carri is out there. I was so glad she had that redemption story right at the last Olympics, you know. And I think that like I'm glad for Nike for like getting it out there and stirring the pot a bit. I think it's it's I think it was more just Nike saying like, let's not be afraid of this conversation. I love it. I mean, it was I mean, it was dope because I think Wieden and Kennedy, they've been doing the production and shooting for Nike since I've been there.

And I do it doing commercials back then so I could see, especially with the black and white and kind of how they brought everything together. So just want to get your be afraid. Let's not be afraid. You know, like that was my. No, no, no. I appreciate your time. And I know you got mommy duties. You're running around. But I would love later in the season, maybe circle back either playoff time before playoff time to kind of see where things sit.

Not just with Dallas, not just with the Lakers, with Sacramento and some other like that. I love I love when I do YouTube like like when I do a podcast, you're like, OK, I'm just doing a podcast. I won't get all dressed up or anything. And I was like, OK, we were doing this around three o'clock. And I was like, I picked my son up at 238 and I'm at my mom's house. So if I do it, my mom says I can't lock the door in my house. So I'm like, oh, I'm going to go to the car. I can lock the door.

You see on the inside of my Honda Accord with me, with the rain in L.A. So I didn't put any makeup on. My hair is a little wet. We want the natural stuff.

We want the natural stuff. All right. Well, I appreciate Ramona. Enjoy the rest of the year, too. All right.

I said yes because it's you. I've always thought you were great. I appreciate it. I see you later. That's good stuff there.

A lot of information to download. But I knew Ramona would provide a better insight to the business, the thinking of both sides of the table. The why, the why not. I loved it. We got a chance to address the Katie kind of back and forth between the two who are great friends. Those two Ramona talked about her and Katie were able to have a conversation, but then advocating for the equality, the recognition on the women's side in sports is great. Interesting to kind of see what moves forward with the WNBA and with the conversation we had about now players. Once that money kicks in with the new CBA, how their demands are going to change a little bit more, maybe see more movement of superstars within the WNBA. But this weekend coming up, a lot of coming up the All-Star break, All-Star game coming up.

I hope it's enjoyable. I hope the changes to the All-Star game provide a lot of excitement and fun, intrigue, competition more than anything else. And at the end of the day, I don't care what you do with the rules. If players don't play hard, it doesn't matter. So we can always say back in the day and we're the old guys, but, you know, back in the 70s and 80s and early 90s, those guys played hard. And that's what made the All-Star game competitive.

We lost that somewhere. So hopefully with the format changes, this All-Star weekend, the game in particular, can be a lot more competitive and fun. I think the players need to do that. The players deserve that.

But more importantly, the fans and the sponsors deserve that as well. So enjoy it. Have a great weekend.

Look forward to catching up with you next week. Peace. You kind of have to understand how Stevie began. White radio. That's where the money was. That's where it still is. Rolling Stone music now. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.