Marc Spears: Mavericks Have To Take It One Game At A Time

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Get the duck boats ready. The Boston Celtics. They are the best team in the NBA. I've been telling you since October, best team in the NBA. Today's guest ESPN Senior NBA Writer Mark Spears. Basketball Hall of Famer Grant Hill.

Contributing writer for the Atlantic, Jamel Hill. And now, sitting in for Rich, Jim Jackson. Welcome, welcome, welcome to a Finals Friday. It is, let me see, fellas, it's about that time. It's about that time.

Let's go. Will the Celtics finish it? Will they get out of Dallas?

Could they celebrate in my former hometown? American Airlines Center. Chris Brockman. Jason Feller. TJ, what's up?

You know. What's up my man? It's good to be back, man.

Thank you for, it's so great to see you. Thank you for not allowing me to scare you away the last time I was here the last two days. And no more Tony Braxton questions for you over there.

I mean, look, we needed to put that to bed, literally. We did, but we got a great guest. We got a great guest later on in Grant Hill. We can ask him his story. Does he have a Tony Braxton story?

No. He's got a Tamia story. He's got a Tamia story. And she was high up on the list too. I was like, whoa. High up on the list.

I'll let you kind of segue into that when we get to that. His wife, Jim Jackson. No, I'm just saying maybe how they met, how they got together. You know, can he sing? Does he sing with, does he help coordinate some songs? You know, stuff like that. I feel like I'm the, you know, the total accent. I don't know.

I need a, like a relationship type title on this show. Now, I guess if I'm going to be going down these worm holes. You worked your way.

You worked your way. But no, it's, it's a special day just because I'm kind of selfish in the sense that I want to see more basketball. Right. You know, the dominance of what Boston has been able to do has been put on display. Now again, it goes back to what they've been able to do all year. They've been dominant all year. Did anybody see this coming in regards to the, with regards to the finals for a 4-0 sweep? I don't think so.

But Brockman will tell you he did. No. Well, I mean, I said, I said five. I thought we'd win. I said six. You had the Celtics or the Mavs? No, I had the Celtics in six. Okay.

You're one of the few smart people in the media then. No, I had six. Just, I thought that Dallas would be able, I thought game three was very critical and they had a chance to win that and they would get, you know, two at home. Yep.

You know, I didn't think they would be able to win on the road, but at home I thought maybe they would be able to take care of it. It's not over. Right.

No, definitely not. But we're creeping towards that being over, you know, and it's interesting too because it's been a lot of talk in the last couple of days coming off of game three about Luca and his performance or lack thereof on the defensive end of the court, which has been something that has plagued him and the Mavericks, you know, since he's gotten into the league and, you know, he had a press conference. He kind of addressed that issue, kind of issued an apology, not only to his teammates, to the organization, fans, stuff like that.

I think we have that press conference too that we can roll a little bit and kind of talk about this and dig into a little bit more of Luca's mindset as we enter into game four. Definitely a lot of holes. I think still 25. Got a lot of ways to learn. A lot of things to learn. This is my first semi-finals, so I'm gonna learn from it for sure. But we're not in off season yet, you know. They still gotta win one more game.

Like I said, we're gonna believe till the end. Any takes out of that that you kind of read, not just the words, body language, eye contact, anything out of that before I get into my thought process. Seems a little defeated. A little bit.

The tone on his voice, shoulders slumping. But he's a great player. He's a superstar in this league. He's a first team all NBA-er.

He's gonna win multiple MVPs, I believe that, before his career is over. No reason why they can't win tonight. Keep this thing going. I feel like, you know, I said this yesterday, someone brought up that, you know, maybe this is too big of a moment. Maybe there's too much pressure.

Like, if you know anything about Luca, he wins MVP of the EuroLeague at 18. Those crowds over there are insane. Like I said yesterday, they start fires in the crowd.

They have chances. It's something I don't think that he's overwhelmed by our crowds. I don't think in that sense it's too big of a moment for him.

I will keep for him in this sense, though, for 12 games, he was unbelievable in these playoffs. But now you come out here, he's getting shots in his abdomen. He's wrapped up. He's got more band-aids on him than the St. Louis Tech at an LA concert back in the day. You know, he's wrapped up like the mummy. He's hurting.

Maybe I kind of put this on, like the man just kind of ran out of gas and his body's just like not responding the way he'd want it to. And that's kind of why his play has been not as great. Yeah, I don't like that narrative. I like the narrative that the Celtics defense has been hounding him. They've been making him work extremely hard on defense because they know he's such a true he's such a liability and they're making him do everything on offense because his supporting cast is less than compared to Boston's. And that's why it's 3-0.

That's why we're on the precipice of a sweep and a completion of this dominant postseason run from the C's. And I told you I'd cape for him. Yeah, well, let's just break it down in a couple of different areas here. Let's go back to Luca. Luca talked about him being only 25 years old and he has a lot to learn. Now, keep in mind, when Luca came into the league, we praised and talked about his maturity level at a young age because he did play in the Euro league. He'd been playing against professionals since he was 13, 14, 15 years old from a very hostile crowd. So he did come with a level of maturity, but I still believe there's some more basketball maturity that he has to obtain. And a lot of that is in his body demeanor, how he approaches his game in regards to get with regards to getting in shape, tip top shape. But also it goes back to the expectations of what he sees from officials during the game and not getting calls and how he reacts to it. That's a level of maturity that he has yet to get to because he's so good, so dominant as a player.

He's going to be able to get what he wants. And let's go back to game three, picks up foul number five on Jalen Brown on the baseline where he hooks him and, you know, he picks that foul up and then you come back less than 20 seconds later and picks up the six foul, ends up fouling out. He's upset.

He's yelling at the officials, yelling at the bench. But that's a you issue because this is something that's been going on with Luca for a long time. Now, are we saying that he has to be the best, the greatest defensive player? No. But the effort has to be there.

And the effort comes in a number of different ways. I played with Steve Nash. Steve Nash would get targeted a lot against opposing defenses. When Joe Johnson was there, Joe would generally guard the point guard and kind of shuffle Steve off to the side and then provide help. But one thing Steve Nash did was he gave the effort consistently. The difference I see with Luca is a couple of things. One, the Boston Celtics make it a point to target Luca wherever you're at, wherever he's at on the court. I don't care who he's guarding. They're going to bring him into a pick and roll scenario, get the switch and then attack him. Now, that is an enormous amount of pressure on the player to have to guard almost every play, but then also single-handedly run the offense and be the scoring threat and help win the game.

So, you know what that means? You got to be in tip-top shape. If you're not in tip-top shape, one of those ends of the court are going to be given up. And unfortunately for the Mavericks and for Luca, it's on the defensive end.

Now, why is that important? Because if you're playing against a team like the Boston Celtics, who can put five threats on the floor when you play Porzingis with regards to putting the ball on the deck and attack it. Unlike Minnesota, where it was Mike Conley at times, definitely, you know, Anthony Edwards was able to beat you off the dribble, but once the ball got out of their hands, Nikhil Alexander-Walker, McDaniel, they weren't threats to come back at you and drive. The Celtics, come here, Luca, put you in pick and roll. We blow by you. You help. We kick it. You close out.

Celtics drive the clothes out. Another help scenario. Boom. Swing it to the corner. Open shot.

Okay. Let's say they don't hit it. Guess what? They got an opportunity for an offensive rebound because the Mavericks haven't been able to match up fully because they've been in rotation. That's the result of getting blown by on that initial thrust up top by Luca. And he has to internalize that and see that on film and say, I got to do better.

Now, he's been saying that. And the question that's come back, fellas, is like, who, if anybody in the organization, can really get to Luca and say, this has to be a point of emphasis. One, in better shape.

Two, a higher level of discipline and dedication on the defensive end. Who can do that? It has to be Jay Kidd. Yeah, his head coach is the only guy. A guy that Luca kind of advocated for to get the job. But Jay Kidd has been saying that. He said it in press conferences before that Luca has to be better.

I'm sure they've had conversations watching film. Luca, come here. Let me talk to you about this is where we need you to be better. But yet we're still in the finals at this point talking about the same thing. And I'm going somewhere with this. Okay. And I'm going somewhere with... I can keep throwing out names.

Go on a couple more. Mark Cuban. Okay. The most important man in the organization, even though he's not the majority governor anymore.

Right. Dirk, maybe you're the franchise's all-time greatest player. Nico Harris. Harrison. Gentle manager, of course. Steve Nash, former player. Who else is close to Luca that we know within the NBA?

A veteran, all-time great. Here's something though. They always say, you don't know until you know, or you don't know what you know. Maybe that person is going to be him after this point. He got to this point. He mentioned to my first NBA finals.

So now maybe it's like... Tyree Irving? Oh, well, yeah. But sometimes when you're that good, you got to be a self-motivator and you got to be like, oh, now I know what I got to do to get... It's one thing... I was always somebody who didn't do great in school when I was being told something.

I had to get out and touch things and do it for myself and learn. So maybe that's where Luca's at. Maybe like, okay, now he's gone through this process. Now he sees what he needs to do in ways he has to be better, both in his body, his way, his play, the way he reacts to fouls.

And maybe he'll mature from this and then move on and become the player everybody expects him to be. That's the point I was getting at. No matter who's around, if the player themselves don't internalize what they have to do and be honest with themselves when they're watching film, because you see it on film.

Okay. In the session, when you get blown by and you give something up and now the team is rotating. So a lot of times Luca get mad at his teammates for something that happened with him.

Right. It's just like the jump shot that he shot. Who was guarding him?

Three. He pulled back and he fell on the ground and he was yelling at the officials. Horford has been playing great tea on him. But then it was Derek White, I think in transition, got the three up top. Okay.

But he was yelling and blaming the official for not getting the foul. It has to get to a point and players go through, especially the great ones, where you got to internalize that and say it's a me problem. I have to do. That's the only person to me that changes the narrative for Luca when he says to himself, I have to not only get better, but I'm a dedicate myself. The thing that Joker did during the bubble. Remember the time off when he went and dedicated himself and lost weight.

Okay. Not only did he lose weight and got in better shape, which allowed him to play deeper into the fourth quarter and be fresher and not wear down. He maintained that discipline and it stayed off.

And as a result, MVPs later, they won a championship. He's a lot now. Is he the most fluid player?

No. But he's effective long term in late game situations because he doesn't wear down because he's in better shape. Luca has to look at that blueprint and say, I'm only going to be better as a player. The better shape I'm in. And B falls into that category too. Oh, absolutely.

Okay. It prevents injuries or allows you to recover from injuries a lot sooner. But now your game is a lot more efficient. And later as later in the season, when you really need to be at your best, you need help from your teammates and everything. Don't get me wrong. But that's the next level for me with Luca is the internalization that I'm still young and I'm still maturing. And we got to understand that because we put a lot on his plate at an early age because of his greatness and where he could become, what he could, who he could become. But he's only 25 and he still has to learn.

So even what if they win tonight and they push it to a game five or a game six, ultimately, Boston is going to win this. But what does Luca take out of this championship run over the summer? That's that's the key to me with him, because there's a lot of basketball and a lot of basketball, a lot of greatness left in that young man. But until he kind of brings that in, the Mavericks are going to be in a situation where they're always going to have to cover up for his mistakes or lack of effort, especially on the defensive end of the court. Now, you know, I don't necessarily have inside information, but I do have a friend and someone he knows.

And this wasn't like a case of I know something, blah, blah, blah. I know a guy who's very close with someone in the front office of the Mavs. And three years ago, and I think I told you this, Chris, he told me that, yeah, within the team, there have been meetings with Luca. They've been talking to him, telling him about the way he's reacting to foul calls and just like his body language and demeanor. So I know based upon what I've heard, that this is something that they have addressed with him and have been talking to him and hoping to make him aware of. Well, that's a good segue, too, because as we go to break, we're going to come back with Mark Spears, a really good friend of mine, writer for Uninterrupted, but also at ESPN out in Oakland, covered the Golden State Warriors for a number of years. Big time writer, understands basketball. We'll be able to dig into his insight a little bit more, not only about the Mavs, but about the NBA, the finals and where it's going. So look forward to that conversation coming up from my guy, Mark Spears. Congrats on everything to brother.

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Slows full terms at mint mobile.com. I don't know if they still have a shot to make the playoffs or not do that. Well, yeah, I mean, all they have to do is just try and win one of the next two without Tony and, and then he comes back and no one's running away with this league.

No one's run away with this division right now. You know what I guarantee we'll win one of the next two without Tony and I'm guaranteed we'll make the playoffs. Okay. I will write that, write that down right now.

Shaquille O'Neal. If we don't make the playoffs, I'll come, I'll come with a Dallas cowgirl suit on your show with some pom-poms for 10 seconds. Oh my gosh.

Wow. I will come. I'll walk out for 10 seconds and everybody take pictures and make fun. Then I got to leave 10 seconds. That's all you get. Not 11 seconds, not 12.

You get 10 seconds on the skirt and a blonde ponytail wig. If so that's if again, the Dallas Cowboys, they don't make the playoffs at all in this season. Okay. Now what are you going to do if they make the playoffs? Oh my gosh. Yeah. So, but I, I, I think they're making the play. I'll do it with you Shaq.

How about that deal? How are you Shaq? First of all, it's not my fault. You need to blame it on the Dallas shops. I've been downtown Dallas looking for some big booty cheerleader shorts.

They don't have any. So I'm a man of my word. I guess I will come there one day, but you least expect it. Well, but the thing is I have to do it with you Shaq. So I do need probably a little bit of a heads up, you know, but you know what?

I don't want you to do it with me because you know what? You waited long enough, you know, you're at the point to where you don't think I'm a believer. So just to prove it to you, I want you to be front and center and I'm going to give you 12 seconds. This is the best possible scenario. Shaq is you've extended it two seconds and absolved me from having to do it.

Exactly. I just want you to sit there and watch. Welcome back to the Rich Eisen Show Radio Network. I'm sitting at the Rich Eisen Show desk, furnished by Grainger.

With supplies and solutions for every industry, Grainger has the right product for you. Call clickgrainger.com or just stop by. If you want to give us a call, call us 844-204-RICH. And it's my pleasure to introduce a good friend of mine, a Naismith Hall of Fame inductee, big time writer, used to hoop and ball a little bit. He's writer now with ESPN and landscape. So we had to correct that. Thank you Mark for giving us that. My man, thank you for coming on.

Hall of Fame-er. How does that feel? Congratulations. When you got that call, what was it like? Oh, man, like, you know what, when I got the call, I believed it. But it was like, it wasn't, but I needed them to say it in front of people. So All Star last year, Salt Lake City, they like, I knew it, but they had to announce it, right?

They announced me and Holly Roll at a press conference. And I'm like, okay, it's, this is real now. You know, it's one thing to tell me on the phone. It's another thing to tell the world. And you watch that video, I got, you know, tried to have a little man juice, man juice, you know, but to have grown up dreaming to be an NBA player like you were, not having that happen, and to somehow still make the Hall of Fame as a writer.

And, man, it's beautiful, man. And that's, you know, I don't know that there's anything bigger I could do in my career than doing that. But, you know, but here's the thing, though, you mentioned the basketball part because you played it. And we all had the aspiration, dreams of, you know, playing at the highest level, and some get there, and some unfortunately don't. But you learn so many things during the progress. How did you transition from the basketball court, shooting jump shots, pounding the pavement, to the writing side of it?

What drove you in that direction? Jimmy, I saw a stat when I was in seventh grade that less than 2% of all college basketball players make it to the NBA. And I was just a realistic kid. You know, I actually went to a career day, and there was a guy from the Warriors there. He must have been dating one of my teachers.

I don't know why this dude from the Warriors. He asked me, like, what do you want to do when you grow up? I said, shoot, I want to play for y'all. And he's like, yeah, okay. Well, if you can't, what do you want to do?

I said, I don't know. And he said, well, if you can combine, and I say this to all kids, what you love most in life, what you do best in school, you can find a job, you're happy, whatever you want to do. And I was like, I could write. I love sports. I can't play in the NBA finals.

Why not be there somehow? And I was like, why not be a sportswriter? So I actually decided in the seventh grade that I wanted to be a sportswriter.

And that's awesome. Does that give you, we talk about the thrill of the crowd and the excitement in the arena, kind of getting the goosebumps and, you know, being able to perform. Writing and kind of putting it in your head, you know, like, you know, writing and kind of putting your thoughts on paper, pen to pad, does that kind of provide and give you that same kind of excitement, enthusiasm, nervousness before you're about to, you know, write a big article? No, you know, Jimmy, like you played in the NBA, I played in college. There's a high that you get from playing. And I just played on a college level that I can't recreate.

And I think you know what I'm talking about. There's this, that's the goosebump. That's the high, being on the court, competing.

I can't recreate that now. It's certainly a blessing to write about basketball for a living and being at these games. And, you know, when I'm covering games, and I know I got to write like I know after right after the game tonight, you're kind of in like a mental thrive mode, like the game gets you hyped and excited and you have that energy that lasts hours after the game. And that is that energy that actually helps me stay awake because these games are so late.

And especially in the East Coast and finish writing at 2.30, three o'clock in the morning. So hopefully shortly after people wake up, they could read what I have to say on the game. And so that's a, but there's no high I could, if I could go back in time to play in one of my old games, I would pay a lot of money to do that. I don't think I really appreciated it as much as I should have. And I can only if I could go back in your time and play one of your NBA games for you, I'd pay a lot of money as well.

No, but you know what, Mark, I think a lot of us really appreciate the road that you traveled. Remember, we were back in the day before you got with ESPN when I was covering some early Golden State 2016, maybe 17 championship runs. And we were talking about the future and where we would be. And speaking of what you're in Boston right now, getting ready to get game four.

And when we were all fair talking, we were all fair talking. I wanted to get into kind of the series itself, how you see it. What do you envision happening tonight? But first, kind of what's been the atmosphere? Well, you're in Dallas right now. I'm sorry, not in Boston, but you're in Dallas. After game three now, that was a game that the Mavs and the fans thought that they could get.

What's the atmosphere like coming out of the pressures yesterday going into game four tonight? Well, I had a breakfast with, have you met Cynthia Marshall? No, with the Mavs.

Yeah, no. You need to meet her. And when you come out here, let me know because I want you to meet her. And she's like, we're going to make history. She tells me that after breakfast. She's like, ain't nobody ever done it in the history of the league. We're going to make history. And then at the end of breakfast, she goes, well, at least I at least think you're going to be in Boston. You're going to have to go back to Boston at least. I'm like, all right.

So you're tempered a little bit. As they said at Mo Better Blues, this is the roughest of the roughest for the Dallas Mavericks. It's something that nobody's ever done, having to try to win four in a row. And I think for them, they honestly got to take it one game at a time and see what happens.

Jimmy, you know how this goes within the first five minutes of the game. You're going to see how much pride the Mavericks have. And there's a quick flight on American to Cancun from here, right? Like they could be there tomorrow afternoon. Mark, Mark, the other 2018s already been to Cancun. They got to go somewhere else. They can't go to Cancun if they lose this one. Cabo.

Cabo. But coming off of that, you talk about the first five minutes, but in game two and game three, the math started off well. Can they sustain it though? No, no, no, no. This is what I mean.

They weren't down like this before. I'm actually saying, do they care at this point? Oh, I got you.

I got you. So in the first five minutes, you're going to see how much they care. And that's what I mean about the vacation. You're like, look, I'm home now.

Do I really want to fly to Boston and continue this? Like, we'll see how much pride the Mavericks have as a franchise. I expect Luca to fight, but he's like taking shots to play in this game, these games, right?

So that's tough. I expect Kyrie to fight. I expect Dallas to have the right pride, especially because they are at home, you know, to try to fight through this.

But look, man, I've gained a lot of respect for Joe Missoula and just his mental aspect. And I really believe he's going to have these guys ready to play. The fact that the Celtics have been there before, Drew Holliday has been there before, closeout games are definitely the hardest games and they're trying to do it on the road. But Jimmy, Dallas is just not as good. And if Boston is focused and they're playing the right way, I really could see this ending tonight, regardless of what kind of effort Dallas puts out.

Hey Mark, Chris Brockman. I'm a Celtics fan, but I remember your time with the Globe. You were the first person to ask Paul Pierce a question after they closed it out in 08. Can you just compare this team to the 08 team? What are the similarities?

What are the big differences? Man, them 08 dudes was crazy, man. These guys are choir boys compared to the 08 team. I mean, KG was just the most intense, ferocious competitor I've ever seen in person. It was such a pleasure to watch him every game. Paul Pierce was extremely competitive. Ray Allen was just super cool.

Perhaps the most beautiful jump shot. What Ken Griffey was to a backswing, Ray Allen was to a jump shot. And so that team, to me, the difference is they're an older team. They're a vet team. Those guys hadn't been in the finals. For the most part, obviously Cassell had, but they knew that those were their last days.

This is probably their best chance. They weren't in their mid-20s like these Celtics two stars. But because those two Celtic stars had gone two years ago and they have failed, I do think that there's a sense of urgency. As somebody that you were saying you're from Boston or a Celtics fan, you know this and they know this. Until you win a championship in Boston, I don't care what your numbers are, you're just not going to be respected the same.

You have to be in the fabric of Celtics lore to get in to that company where you're mentioned alongside Russell and Bird and JoJo and KG and Paul. I think that if Boston wins tonight, two of the main people I'm watching is Tatum and Brown to see if there's just an explosion of emotion. I don't think there's two NBA players in the league that have more pressure on them to win for their franchise than those two. As you know, Boston and LA, it's a different type of pressure, but LeBron has won one for the Lakers, AD won one for the Lakers.

But for these two guys, if they just break down and feel a release, I get it. Another guy to keep an eye on is Al Horford. The only player that has played in more playoff games than him and not won is Karl Malone in NBA history. He's about nine games shy.

I'll be keeping an eye on Al Horford as well because he's now 38 years old, hitting 40 at his time in his career. You start thinking like this is never going to happen. But because of what I just mentioned, I do expect the Celtics to be focused, to be ready. They play how they play, but I don't think we're going to get to go back home no matter what and we could just finish it off there.

No, I really think they're going to have the right mental capacity to try to end things and then go do their duck boat tour in a couple of days. It's also so funny, the OA team, they played multiple game sevens throughout that playoff run, whereas this team has only lost the two games. No, I think if they win tonight, they'll be 70 and 80 and 20.

80 and 20, right. Yeah, I mean that's incredible. That OA team, man, I remember it. Jimmy's going to laugh about this. There's going to be a documentary that comes out at some point. Why did it take them seven games to beat the Atlanta Hawks?

Why did they lose all the games in Atlanta? You got a story? Oh, something about it. Chicken wings is really good, I heard in Atlanta. Something about maybe going to the ballet.

Something about going to the ballet at night, maybe that might be part of it. Hey Mark, TJ here. Pleasure talking with you. Always been a fan of your takes and the way you look at the game. I don't want to get ahead of myself. I know the Celtics are up 3-0 and, you know, barring something that's never happened before, they're going to win that Larry O'Bees. So my question to you is, you know, sports talk question. How do you think history is going to remember this Celtics team assuming that they do go ahead and and raise banner number 18?

I think we got it. You got to ask that question in five years, right? Going back to that 2018, there's nothing that made me not think that they were going to like not even repeat but three-peat.

I thought they were super special. And if you look at them the next season, and this might bring some pain to my man there that's a Celtics fan, they were actually better the next season and then Kevin Garnett blew out his knee. Never the same. The Celtics were never the same after that.

And then Perk got hurt in game six. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, if Garnett never gets hurt, like they are one of the scariest teams in NBA history. And so it's hard to answer that question, not knowing what the future holds. Different thing about this team is just so much younger. Like your two stars aren't even in their late 20s yet. Like, so they have the ability to maybe do something special going forward. But what the NBA is telling you now is like there hasn't been any repeat champions for a while. Nothing is guaranteed. I bet you two months ago, there was nobody that would think that the Nuggets wouldn't not only win it, but probably even be in the finals, right? Like you thought that was a given. You thought that was a given probably that Milwaukee would be back the next year and that they would win it or Golden State would be back. It's just that the parody within this league right now is sensational. There's so many good teams. And to win a championship, you got to not only be great, you got to be lucky and you got to be healthy. And other than Porzingis, the Celtics have had that. And that just shows you that it's a paramount amount of scoring and talent that they have on this roster. And, you know, you keep this team together.

You fix a couple little pieces through holidays. Going to be a little bit of a two and he's been sensational defensively. Porzingis back. No, I mean, I'm certainly think that'd be the favorites next year.

But, you know, there's some other great teams in the entire NBA that, if healthy, can battle with them. Mark, speaking of which, in regards to legacy, we were having this internal conversation inside about Jalen Brown. If Celtics win, if Jalen Brown is then presented with the Finals MVP, where does this move him in the needle in regards to players in the league? Because he didn't make, he made first, he made third team all NBA last year, didn't make anything this year. Where does this now push Jalen Brown if these things were to happen, you know, either tonight or during, you know, the championship run? Well, the one that, the one play that sticks out to me already is there's still a Luca in the dunk.

Like that, to me, was a reminder to everybody who wasn't paying attention to who he is. He is certainly often overshadowed because of Jason Tatum. I actually think for both he and Jason and Jalen, that if they win this, then the world is going to be thinking about them in a different light for the rest of their lives. They're going to be Celtics icons. They're going to be looked at as the elite superstars in the league. They will get over the hump in terms of respect. You can't talk that, that they didn't do it.

They always, you know, fall shy anymore. They'll have done it. And then the thing is, both of them, Jalen's on the Olympics too, right? You know, being on the Olympic team will certainly take things to another level. So I'm just, I'm really excited for Jalen. You know, I was around him when he was at Cal. He's one of the most unique and smart guys in the league.

Gibby, you'll laugh at this. He invited me to do his interview with him at a Brazilian restaurant in Berkeley while he was wearing a, you know, a soccer shirt. I think he had a Real Madrid shirt on or something like that. And he was telling me about how he was learning Spanish and how to play the guitar. And so like, there's a story at this time where they're like, he's too smart for the league. He has too many other interests. You know, he went to Cal Berkeley for academic reasons, not for basketball reasons. So, but he's a brilliant, brilliant guy.

But, you know, I think he shows you, like, you can't judge a book by his cover. He certainly comes to play every game. He's an underrated superstar in this league. And I'm with you, man. Like, this vaults him to one of the elite players in the league, especially, I think if he has a great game tonight, that more than likely he'll end up at the Celtics win being MVP of the finals.

And, you know, in the last question, and maybe thought, we in today's society want everything to happen now. You get the team together, you win the following year. That hasn't been the case with the Celsius with regards to winning a championship. They've been down the road of getting to a championship Eastern Conference finals, but haven't been able to cross over. How much of that did you see the level of maturity that you saw in the playoffs? How much of that did you see the level of maturity in this Boston team? Because when Dallas went on that run, you know, in the third quarter, fourth quarter, maybe a year ago, this Celtics team wouldn't be able to recover and they give that up. The level of maturity that you've seen with this Boston team over the years has gotten them to this point. Where do you see this team at right now from that perspective, the growth side of it? Well, I think the first part of the growth came from being in the finals against the Warriors, but losing. I just remember seeing the pain in Jason Tatum's face, talking to family in the hall outside of the locker room after the game. But then the next year to lose to the Miami Heat in the game seven was humbling, extremely humbling. And I think it showed them that nothing is guaranteed. You know, it's not a given that you're going to be here every year. It's not a given that you'll be in the finals. And so I do think that that's given them a different perspective, a different sense of urgency.

And then now you've got O.O.G. and Al Horford, who's probably like, guys, this is probably maybe my last chance. Then you've got another guy, Drew Holliday, who is basically, you know, a kind of a mental big brother there that explains to them like, hey, you know, I've been a couple of years removed from moving to win in the championship, too.

So let's take this series. So there has been a mental focus with them, with the Celtics that I saw that I'm seeing now that I didn't see last year, that I didn't see the year before. You could make an argument that that Celtics team may have been more talented than the Warriors. But mentally, the Warriors were just more experienced and in a better place than them and knew how to shut things down. And we'll see how truly sharp the Celtics are mentally tonight, because there's no question they are the better team. There's no question that the Mavs will likely fight them back. But they should end this tonight. And they should, you know, get off the plane with some red RBAC, you know, Jimmy Jackson cigars and a hat, you know, getting ready for their duck boat ride.

I mean, they are the better team. And it's time to like basically shut us all up about who they are. You know, this is their time.

No, Mark, really appreciate the time. I know that the crowd is going to be crazy tonight in Dallas. Enjoy my second third city. There's a lot of Boston people here, man.

And there's more coming. Like keep an eye on the crowd tonight. Okay. Because when you're down 30, you might have faith. But let's see how faithful the MFL or whatever they call it over here.

The MFFL is. I don't want to see no death. I'm gonna sell my seat to somebody.

I guarantee you tonight, you're gonna see a lot of green in the stands. Right. All right, my man. Well, enjoy it. It's been a pleasure.

Congrats on all the successes, man. Look forward to see what you got to say after game four. All right.

I'll see you in summer league, right? You got it. All right. Thanks, Mark. Thanks, everybody. Good talking to you, brother. I mean, but he talked about a number of key things.

They're about to sell succeed. The maturity aspect of it, kind of where Jaylen Brown goes from there. But watching, I think it was really important. The pain he saw in Jason Tatum's face when they lost to Golden State. And then the disappointment when they lost as the favors to the Miami Heat, the scars, the part that that really make you appreciate where you're at right now. But they had to go through that pain. Right. You have to. You have to.

And this is Lucas Payne right now. Kyrie's been to the mountaintop before, but this is also his pain. He struggled in game one and two, played great game three, not wasn't enough.

You talk about it. The Celtics team has been there, man. This is their sixth conference final, second NBA finals. They've come up short. It's time. It's time. It's also time to take a little break. So come back on the other side with us and join us. But Jim Jackson here filling in for rich eyes and right now. So a lot more to talk about.

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Shopify.com slash Westwood One. When was the first time you met Jordan? When was the first time you met him, shook his hand, covered him or something like that? The first time I met him was at that mid summer nights dream game out there in LA. And we just had, you know, that was the time where guys would play in these all-star games during the summer. And it was a real game. You know, it wasn't like they were out there like Globetrotters or something.

They actually really were playing with egos involved. So that was the first time I had met him then. And we just sort of met after the game, talked and exchanged phone numbers and saw the rest in terms of how our relationship developed.

It developed from that. Well, I mean, if there's one thing that anybody learned from this documentary is that anything that Jordan ever played in wasn't just a regular game, right? I mean, that was a real, you know, that's one thing that I'm sure if anybody needed to be introduced to Jordan, and there's a whole, there's a whole generation that did they just learn that.

Did you learn anything from the last dance Ahmad Rashad? No, I didn't. I didn't because I think, you know, just like you said, when you introduced me, I had a catbird speak to all of it. And it was one of those different sort of, I've never sort of been in a situation where I had sort of free access to the locker room, you know, to the training room, to their buses to I was just there.

So I got a chance to see a lot of those things. I was glad that people got a chance to see the human side of Michael. And you see how much how competitive he was, and how demanding he was. And I think what I what I take from that is, if you think Larry Bird wasn't like that, and if you think Magic Johnson wasn't like that, then you're not really thinking the right way. So it wasn't just Michael, that was just, you know, when it all costs, put your foot on the guy's neck kind of thing. All these guys were able to do that.

But Michael, what separated him was his athletic ability was way above anybody's at that point. Ready, set, griddle this drilling season. Get the Weber State rust resistant griddle with a carbon steel cooktop that's safe for all metal tools. It's pre seasoned and ready to cook on right now right out the box. It's the grill that stays ready not rusty.

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I want to go out and go to Whole Foods, get some stuff. That's one thing I miss about living back in Ohio in the summertime. That's all I would do. Grill out? We'd grill out.

Yep. You just go get some food. Play a little golf early. Come back. Why can't you do that here? It's expensive here. And I don't have a house.

I got a condo. So it's not the same. You know, in the backyard, I can do whatever in my backyard. You know, here is a little bit different. Yeah, you got nosy neighbors. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Peeking around and can hear stuff. But, you know, at the end of that, too, it was it was it was interesting that rich was talking to a mob Rashad and talking about Michael. And we were talking about this off air too. With the passing recently, Jerry West, and then also Bill Walton, that it got me reflecting a few years ago, I would say, and how fortunate we were from an NBA perspective, because the league is the youngest of the four major leagues that a lot of the legends, this was maybe five, six, seven years ago, were still around that you can reach out and touch. Not that some didn't pass, but the Bill Russells, the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the Magics, the Oscar Robinsons, Clyde, Walt Frazier, Bob, these these players were still around that you could really see history, touch history, ask questions.

But then, like someone told me before, he said, as you get older, death becomes more relevant. And then we start to see a Chet Walker, a Bill Walton, you know, now Jerry West, begin to pass right before our eyes and how, you know, special it was to have them around. But then to reflect back now on, man, it's that transition period, we saw it in football, we've seen it in football, we've seen it in baseball, we've seen it in hockey. And now it's happening more frequently now, it seems, in basketball.

Am I wrong? No, man, all these guys in the NBA, they used to be courtside. Bill Russell used to hand out the MVP trophy.

He was always there. Everyone's so big and larger than life. But also, I think, too, it's these guys are so much taller. It's, you know, it's a height thing being in the NBA, obviously, and they stick out and easily noticed.

You see them walking down the street. It's like obvious who they are and what they've done and what they represent. It's the passing of time is hard. It's hard.

It makes you think about your own mortality a lot. I was thinking about that a lot in the last couple of weeks, especially, you know, with Jerry, because he's been in here and, you know, we've met him, we've gotten to talk with him and have deep, interesting conversations. It's, man, it's different. You know, football, you got the helmet on, so it's hard to recognize these guys when they're out. And it's not like, you know, dudes can just stand on the sideline or whatever.

It's easy, you know, you sit courtside, sit, you sit front row at a baseball game or something. You can see these people and you really, I don't know, you feel like you know them. To be honest, you know, they're part of your family in a weird way. Well, the stories. That's what sports are. Yeah, the stories, the history. You see video clips. You know, last year with working with the Clippers, I was able to spend some time with Jerry West at training camp in Hawaii.

And I'll kind of backdrop this a little bit. Years ago, I maybe had an interest or thought about, you know, was management in my future? First person I wanted to talk to was Jerry West.

And I think at the time he may have been with the Memphis or Golden State. And he said, Jimmy, you know, whenever you want to talk about it, get deeper. Just give me a call. Here's my number.

I think you'd be great at it. But some things you need to know. Fast forward, I got a chance just to spend time with him last year in the car on the way to practice, you know, at breakfast, at lunch and hear the story. Now, I will say this. As much as he enjoyed life, losing those eight finals, he's you could veins popped out his neck when he talked about it. I mean, just the disappointment and not winning being the best player at that time, one of the best players and not being able to win more championships, even though he's been successful in Memphis at rebuilding that program, Golden State having that influence, of course, with the Lakers back in the day, and then the Clippers, but not being able to do it when he was at the height, the peak of his career. That says a lot about him.

You know, his background, his family, how he grew up in West Virginia, the battles he had to fight internally and externally, you know, and to be in his presence was just special. And the thing about it, what I've learned from Jerry was in today's world about analytics, we always talk about analytics, right? And I think you need to have it because it's a very useful tool. Okay, but I've always said it's about analytics. And maybe you agreed to analytics can put two players together. And you can say that these numbers look like they should fit the numbers say they play well together. But what analytics can't tell you is whether their personalities will fit.

Yep. That's where Jerry came in, and saw, okay, your analyst says this, but it's something about this young man, that I think to be special that could work. And you need that insight, that knowledge, to be able to go beyond the numbers, to be able to look at a player or two and say, this can work or this can't work.

And that's something that was special with the way the game has changed and progressed. Jerry never lost that ability to evaluate talent. And kind of put talent together so you can be successful. It's kind of like this movie, The Last Boy Scout, they talked about Bruce Willis had the line, and he asked the guy, head or gut? And that's kind of seems what you're saying there, Jerry, listen to his gut.

When, you know, analytics or something might say, these are the numbers, you do this, but you got to listen to your gut. And it seemed like he did that. And it worked out very well for him.

He did. And speaking about talent, when we come back on the other side of the screen, we're going to talk about it. When we come back on the other side of this commercial, my guy, Grant Hill, will join us. We got some questions for him.

Every story eventually comes to an end. This June, hear the final episode of season two of the hit podcast series In the Red Clay, Durham. In the Red Clay tells the unbelievable true story of Billy Sunday Burt, the most dangerous man in Georgia history, in the podcast that people are calling riveting, incredibly moving, captivating and addicting. Binge seasons one and two of In the Red Clay now, wherever you listen.