What the Football with Suzy Shuster & Amy Trask: Louis Riddick

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Lowest price guaranteed. Combine week, everybody. Combine week. Excited for that, Amy. I loved combine week when I was with ABC sports for college football because it was the time of year that I could know more than Rich.

It was very exciting. He'd go to the combine and some of these guys would come on the field and he'd say, who the hell is that? And I remember so well the year that Vernon Davis took the combine by storm.

He'd come out of Maryland. I'd done a ton of games for the ACC with Mike Torrico and Tim Brant and had seen him week in and week out. And when he got to the combine, he shocked everybody with his time. I mean, I think he had like a 4-3-8 or something crazy like that. And he's a big, big, big tight ender. He was when he played. And I remember Rich calling me in a commercial break saying, who the hell is this guy?

And give me everything you have on him. And I loved it because I had had buckets of information of him from when he played at Maryland, specifically how he was a huge figurative artist, but that's a whole different sideline conversation. But what's your favorite combine story? Well, you love the combine. During my years with the Raiders, I hated the combine because I knew how much we spent sending the oodles of people we sent to the combine. And I have a lot of issues with the combine.

I want to get your view on standardized tests because I have strong feelings on that. But I will never forget the time one of our football men, George Karas, walked into my office after the combine. And he was so excited, Suzy, so excited to tell me that in the meetings with the players, he asked each one, if you were an animal, what animal would you be? Now, let me let you, I love George. And I know he wouldn't mind me telling this story.

He passed away, but he wouldn't mind me sharing this story. And when he said to me, I asked them, if you were an animal, what animal would you be? All I could think of is how much we spent on his first class round trip ticket, how much we spent to put him up at the hotel in Indianapolis and the invoices, the receipts, the expense reports he submitted for every day eating at the combine, only to ask players, if you were an animal, what animal would you be? Suzy, if you were an animal, what animal would you be?

Well, clearly a dog, but that's like a crazy question. By the way, Louis Riddick will join us momentarily from ESPN. He will be with us shortly.

And he is a wealth of information as it pertains to the combine, the players, his experience covering college football and the like. You would of course be a dog or a cat, correct? I don't know. I might just go a little crazy in that meeting and saying I'd be, you know, a dolphin because they are so, so, so smart. I might want to be a smart animal or maybe I'd be an elephant if I wanted to be a lion. I'd probably be a lion.

No, I take it back. I am a lion would be a good one. You mentioned standardized tests. It's so interesting to me how the players have to take these tests.

They're the one to look a couple other ones as well. I mean, I was a terrible standardized test taker. In fact, I remember after drawing designs on the PSAT to get to a horse show, we got the test back and I think they said to me and my mother, and I think I remember her being in tears.

You might consider junior college. I turned out okay. I think standardized tests were a really rough way to ascertain whether a player is going to achieve on the field or not. I don't think standardized tests have a place at the combine. And Suze, you know, there are things we share in common. There are things we don't. Our lack of success on standardized tests, we share in common. I suck at standardized testing. Always have.

I'm actually kind of thrilled to this day that I found a way to pass the bar exam. I don't think standardized tests are appropriate at the combine. One of myriad questions that we can ask Louis Riddick, and I'll be very curious to hear his take on where we are with the Bears and where we are with Justin Fields and the other quarterbacks that he believes are the most valuable at the very top. And one of the other things that's really just bothering me as well, which is guys showing up and not wanting to throw, not wanting to participate in some of these drills. We were talking about Marvin Harrison, who says that he's going to already prepare for the NFL and the experience of playing in the NFL instead of the drills. What would Al have thought of players like that, who tell you what they're going to do with the combine as opposed to show up and do what they're asked to do? It would absolutely depend on the player in question. And I don't think there would be one answer that would cover all players. And look, at the end of the day, if a player who says, I'm not going to perform at the combine, I'm not going to do the drills, I'm not going to do anything, I'll go to the medical appointments, I'll meet with the teams. If it doesn't impact that player's draft position, if he is still drafted where he believes and his team around him believes he should be drafted, then we're going to continue to see that happening. And by the way, if I were an agent, if I were a representative, if I were in the circle of advisors for a player, I would absolutely positively say to that player and say to all the teams, this player is not taking a standardized test. I would say that perhaps, but I think if I were advising a player, I'd say go out there and throw it and show them that you're a team player and that maybe your film or your tape speaks for itself. But I think you cannot devalue participating in person. Fair enough.

And then I'd also want to be indemnified if anything happened to me. Well, as promised, we are joined now by Lewis Riddick. Lewis, thank you for joining us, giving your background, your knowledge, your expertise that you were doing so the week of the Combine is perfect. The Combine has changed over the years since you and I have been involved in the league.

So let's dive right in. Susie and I spent the first part of this podcast discussing standardized testing at the Combine. We have some strongly held views. What are your views as to the value, if any, of standardized testing?

Well, I'll just boil it down by saying this, Amy. Look, I played with many guys who, when it came to standardized tests, any kind of classroom-like test that was, you know, something that was typically used to, you know, to place kids in school. I know I played with many guys who struggled in that kind of environment, in that kind of test, but as soon as you gave them a football playbook and asked them to memorize fronts, coverages, blocking schemes, situational football, they all of a sudden became geniuses as far as their ability to read and retain and then apply. So I think the Combine, when it comes to gauging functional sports intelligence, and in this case obviously football intelligence, I think it needs to be very specific, geared very specifically to that sport, and maybe even more so maybe geared very specifically to the individual positions, because otherwise what winds up happening is you wind up making mistakes. You really do as far as your evaluation, as far as trying to determine whether a guy is sufficiently functionally intelligent enough to play at a high level, and then you wind up missing on some people, both on the upside and the downside. I played with plenty of guys who were very, very smart in the classroom, who quite honestly were about as smart as a box of rocks on the football field.

I think moving around and they started getting hit and getting fatigued, it just didn't click, and then vice versa. So I think you have to be very careful with that kind of thing. Every year, you see how it happens.

You know better than anyone how it happens. Every year that all of a sudden certain test scores start getting leaked, people start running with narratives. Next thing you know, there's all kinds of diversity swirling around, especially quarterbacks, and that's just unfair to the player, and it's just inaccurate.

Well, you're right. It is unfair to the player. We saw what happened last year with CJ Stroud, and something that won't surprise you at all, Al Davis did not give a damn about how a player tested at the Combine, or if a player tested at the Combine, and as someone who really, really sucked on standardized tests, that would be me, I loved that he didn't care about it.

Suze, what do you got for Lewis? No, I'm so curious your thoughts on these players who are not going to work out, like Marvin Harrison, Caleb Williams. Do you believe this is a problem? It's not a problem at the end of the day in terms of assessing whether or not, or feeling as though you don't have enough information as it relates to their athletic ability to then properly project them to the NFL. It's not a problem in that regard. It's a problem for me personally simply because when you're talking about the top players in the country, and those are the ones who usually opt out, right?

Top five players, top six players. It's a problem for me because there's nothing for you to lose. I understand in many respects that these players feel like, well, there's nothing for me to gain either. As a matter of fact, especially in the case of Marvin Harrison, I think he cited the fact that he didn't want to train specifically for the Combine.

He wanted to continue to train for football and get himself ready for what eventually is going to be his first rookie mini camp in OTAs and that. And I get that point. I think there's a balance though. I think there's a happy medium here where you're continuing to show what football scouts like to call competitive character, meaning you want to compete on a level playing field. I don't care if it's a game of checkers or if it's a 40 or if it's a short shuttle time or if it's running a slant round. You want to compete with the rest of the guys because you know that, look, I've already pretty much built 98% of my resume as it relates to on the field.

And I know that people know what I am. You just would like to see them feel as though the risk does not so far outweigh the reward that you just shun the whole thing and you just go, I'm out of here. I'm leaving because I think at its core and I think at players in players' hearts, they would compete. What happens is agents, advisors, family members start getting in these kids' ears and going, you don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. You don't need to participate in that. And it's kind of indicative of everything else going on in our world.

People want more and more and more and more and more, but want to be responsible and held accountable for less, less, less, less, and less. That's just the way things are trending. And is it going to ruin the draft? Is it going to ruin Caleb's stock?

Is it going to drop? No. But do you see where I'm going with it? When CJ Stroud threw out the combine last year, he was already quarterback one for me over Bryce anyway. But when he did that, I was like, see, when Anthony Richardson was thrown, I was like, see, those are the dudes I love. You're not scared of anything. And you understand that the chances for you doing something that's really going to hurt yourself from a physical perspective and knock down your draft stock are probably very, very minimal.

I know why this kind of thing happens. Kids are taught to continue to rail against doing more, but then always wanting more. And that fundamentally bothers me.

As you can see, I really have some big hangups about this. I talk to my own kids about this all the time. I talk to my son in particular, who's an up-and-coming basketball player. About just the value of work and showing people what kind of competitive character you have, regardless of how good you have. I mean, how good of an athlete you are or how high your stock is.

You always want to show people, this is my thing, and I'm the alpha, and I'm going to show you every chance I get. Lewis, I'm so glad that you brought up basketball, because as a former NBA reporter, I've always thought the difference between the NBA and the NFL is, if it's at all possible, football is even more of a team sport, where you can't just have a prima donna out there, or somebody who thinks they're better than everybody else in the locker room, maybe more than any sport. And this is somebody who lived through being in Shaq and Kobe's locker room every night. And it seems to me that, and I'm curious on your take, I wonder if the NIL has changed guys' attitudes towards the combine. When you come into the combine already independently wealthy, as we know, Caleb's reported to have earned up to $4 million coming in. Once you get to the pros, and a lot of these young guys, and again, I did college football for ABC, so I know the transition.

We talked about that earlier. When you are a young kid coming into a bunch of men in an NFL locker room, you learn really fast how young you are. And I wonder if the NIL has given some of these guys a mental perception that they don't have to throw at the combine, or have to perform at the combine. Oh, there's no doubt that the more comfortable you are financially, socially, mentally, a lot of times it takes some of the edge off of you, and makes you go, I don't have to do as much.

The more full you are, obviously, conversely, the less hungry you are. And I don't think there's any question that guys coming in having a nice investment account, a nice savings account, already pretty much well on their way to being set up for the future, probably definitely feel as though, hey, man, I'm not going the extra mile like maybe you would have back in 1991 when I was at the combine. There was no doubt about that. And I think the whole NIL phenomena is something that's definitely on the forefront of scouts and general managers' minds, because, look, for a guy like Caleb Williams in particular, I promise you that in the draft meetings preceding the combine, it is being talked about how he was treated, accommodated, taken care of by Lincoln Riley, both at Oklahoma and at USC, about how he lived a much different lifestyle at Oklahoma and at USC, and how is that going to affect his mindset and his approach from day one that he walks into an NFL locker room, which, as you alluded to, can be a rude awakening for you. I don't care if you've made $4 million in college football or not. There's guys making a hell of a lot more than that in the NFL and who are much more advanced and much further down the road in this thing called life than you are, and they will teach you a very, very hard lesson very quickly about how much you don't know that you think you know. And it doesn't matter how much money you come in there with. You might as well be, for lack of a better word, a trust fund baby. To them, they don't care where you got your money. They don't really care that you have money anyway. And look, maybe NFL locker rooms are much happier.

I shouldn't say happier. Maybe they're much more accommodating environments than they were when I played. Because when I did it, there was definitely a hierarchy. There was definitely a pay your dues type of mentality when you walked into the locker room then. When I walked into my very first locker room on a regular season basis down in Atlanta in 1992, and there were guys like Scott Case and Jesse Tuggle and Chris Hinton and Mike Ken and Dion Sanders and those guys, I mean, they didn't give a damn where I was from or what I had or what I didn't have.

You were going to fall in line and you were going to earn everything you got. And now some of these kids are going to come into school, I mean, some of these guys are going to have nicer cars than the guys who are in the NFL. Think about that. You go to any big time power five schools player's parking lot before a game and you see some of the cars parked out there, you would think, am I at a college game or am I at the Lakers versus the Knicks?

I mean, it's unbelievable. So yeah, that whole dynamic and how scouting departments scout players and then project them into their environment, is I know for a fact it's at the forefront of their minds because I've talked to guys who have already, who are already talking about it. And I've talked to guys who have already talked about it, referencing Caleb Williams about what will it be like?

What's the difference between him, Jayden, Drake, Michael Pennix, Bo Nix. They've talked about it concerning all of them. So it's, I mean, you're on to something big right there for sure. You think teams will want to think twice about that? How will that affect things negatively? Well, I'm one of those people who believes that, look, Caleb is from a physical perspective, a very unique individual who can do things throwing a football, both in structure, out of structure with his legs as a runner, that there's only a few guys who can do it in the NFL right now. So there may be, to borrow Andrew Brandt's phrase, greater tolerance.

Yep. Because of the greater talent. And people will go, you know what, we'll deal with all the other stuff, but have you seen him throw this bomb? I mean, it happens all the time.

You know how that works. But I'm one of those people who believe that as we move through this process, I'm hoping against hope that a guy like Jayden Daniels, Jayden is phenomenally talented. And I have a feeling that that gap, like I said, there were tears.

There was Caleb, gap, Jayden, gap, Drake, May, gap, you know, everyone else. I have a feeling that that, where it may have been like that, that, that, that it may be like, it's maybe tightening up big time. And a lot of that may have to do with how people feel about these guys.

Once the coaches, assistant coaches, owners start getting involved, which is right now, I mean, as you know, I mean, this is now the time where all those other opinions start weighing in. Yep. Sometimes good, sometimes very bad.

A lot of things could change between now and the time we get to Detroit. Looking for an assist with your credit card, but can't get ahold of anyone? Luckily with 24 seven U S based live customer service from discover. Everyone has the option to talk to a real person anytime day or night. Yep.

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That's OReilly auto.com slash Eisen. You know, you have said so many things which have me wanting to jump right through this screen and hug you. I agree with you wholeheartedly as to the importance of whole hard work. I agree with you as to the locker room. I was smiling ear to ear as you were describing it, because the other fact I will add, which you well know, is the age gap in locker rooms. We drafted men that weren't even 21. So in other words, you're drafting people that aren't the legal age of drinking, and they're in the locker room walking in thinking, Oh, yeah, I'm here. And there's men decades older than them. And that's another factor. You know, and by the way, just so many things you've said with which I agree.

I'd like to know if you agree with something. Drove me nuts from the time I started in the league, still does. Back in the day, we called it film. We had film on the players and it was tape on the players. I think now it's video, right? It's not film anymore.

It's not tape anymore. But here's what I have never understood is you can have film tape video on these players game after game after game. And yet there are team personnel who go to the combine and based on what they see in a three-day period, change their views on a player. I have never understood why you won't simply rely on that which you've seen the player put forth on the field, but why people are so easily moved based on three days of meetings in which ridiculous questions are asked. Well, I think it's a multitude of reasons and you'll, and I agree with you 100%, and I think there's a multitude of reasons why that happens. One, we so desperately, and I mean by we, I mean personnel people, media people, fans, we so desperately want to objectify this game that has so much subjectivity to it that we will, at this time of year, since it's kind of like almost like a recency bias thing, this is the latest greatest thing we get to see guys running forties, jumping in the, you know, doing the vertical, doing the standing broad jump, doing the short shuttle that we start to rely so heavily on it because one, it's the latest thing we see. Two, because we start going well, we start hearing all these things being spit out about, well, you know, guys who were this height, this weight, who had this vertical, this broad, these are the guys who have the greatest chances for, you know, ascending to becoming, you know, all pro type of players. So not only fans do that, personnel people do that too because of the third thing I'm about to say, which is for personnel people, it's almost a combination of the first two.

They all don't always trust their eyes, they feel a need, there's been an increasing need to make the data be the almighty in terms of decision making instead of your subjective evaluation. And then three, let's just talk about like a guy like Russell Wilson, right? Why didn't Russell Wilson when he came out of Wisconsin go in the first round? You know how many times I've heard people say, well, if he had been 6'3", he would have gone, I would have taken him in the first. And the reason why people don't is because, I don't know if I can say this on air, but I'm going to say it's an ass covering mechanism.

Yep, you are so right. What they're saying is if he fails and he's 5'11", 210, the owner's going to look at me a lot differently than if he fails and he's 6'3", 215 and runs 4'3". So I can't take the outlier, even if my film evaluation or my tape evaluation or my video evaluation says this guy does everything that an NFL quarterback needs to do. If he hits, I'm a genius. If he fails, I'm getting fired.

The bigger guy, if he hits, well of course he hits because of look at his measurables. If he fails, it ain't my fault, it must be the coach's fault. No, it's a gamble, it's a gamble. Exactly. So all they're doing, they're trying to minimize risk of being wrong and at the same time make sure that they're not the ones who are on the chopping block if he does fail.

That's why this time of year, so much. And you know, it's easy to look at this sheet of 40 times in heights and weights and arm lengths and hand sizes and verticals and just go, I want that one, that one, that one. And a lot of people who come into the process at this time aren't going to sit down and watch four or five games of an offensive guard and try and pick out the best three techniques he went against and see whether or not he can anchor, slide his feet, and redirect versus finesse, see how good he is as a puller out on screen.

They don't care. They just want to know who's the biggest, strongest, fastest guy and the coach is supposed to make him a great player. And you're absolutely right. And that's, you stated it perfectly. That's what drove me nuts. I still think it's crazy that you have all this film tape video of a player and what he puts forth on the field, but you're going to look at that checklist of 40 time and vertical jump and hand size, as opposed to what do your eyes tell you when you watch this young man play?

Yeah. And I understand, look, there's some times, especially if you feel as though there's some comparable players, or maybe there's one player who's subjectively off of the tape you think is around below, or maybe just a sliver below the guy who on tape looks like a better player now, but the guy who was maybe just a little bit on the field, lesser of a player, has more athletic upside in your mind. And you feel ultimately three, five years down the road, he's going to be the better player that you'll wind up relying on those measurables to kind of justify in your mind, well, I'm going to take this guy, even though on the tape he may be a little bit less than this player. I understand that that happens, and I'll be the first to admit I have done that kind of thing, where I thought maybe there's some kind of circumstance that has held this guy back on the field, whether it be coaching, injury, personal situation, whatever it is, but I think once we get him in our environment, he will leapfrog this other guy by leaps and bounds, and his upside is so much higher, and his athletic traits tell me that his upside is so much higher. So I've done it, but you don't want to make a normal practice out of that. That's the exception, it's not the rule, and yeah, this is the time of year for sure where I will probably tweet out between now and the draft probably three or four different times when I hear people say this guy's rising, this guy's falling, I'm going to go, you know, knock knock, no games have been played, no games have been played in about three months, how's this guy rising? You know, that kind of thing, because you got to be careful, and you know that. And when I see that, when I see you post that on social media, I will reply with blowing you kisses.

Yeah, perfect, perfect. If you had the first pick, would you be tempted to take Jaden over Caleb? Is there any part of you that sees, you went like this, you said that the gap is narrowing. Is there any part of you that's kind of tempted to go with Jaden over Caleb?

Sure, there is. It's that upside thing, and it's the thing I don't know right now, which is, look, I've never talked to Caleb Williams. So look, I think we all right now, outside the people who have either visited SC or Baton Rouge or know these guys personally, there's no way we could make a definitive evaluation about what these guys would be like if we had them in our quote-unquote environment than what we thought that he could do.

There's just no way. So I'm going to give Jaden Daniels the benefit of the doubt and say, hey, look, what I see on tape, as far as him being a processor, the kid who plays with tremendous fundamental consistency, arm strength, field vision, decision-making, accuracy, in structure, out of structure, the way he can run with the football, it's just ridiculous how explosive he is, the growth that I heard he has undergone from his time at Arizona State to the time he got to Baton Rouge in terms of how he's ingratiated himself to his teammates, become more of a leader, starting to come out of his shell. There's other things that I've heard that I'll get more clarity on as far as his personal life and how hopefully it's something that will be solid for him and won't be a detriment for him in any way, shape, or form as he gets into the league. What's Caleb's personal situation like? Are there people who are going to hold him back?

Are there people who are going to help him? I don't know those answers. So that's why I say, just from strictly watching the tape, which is what we're talking about here, I could easily see myself coming away from this situation if I was on the inside, like being able to spend hour after hour with these guys, put them on the board, take them out to dinner, talk to all their contacts, really dig deep on them, then I could wind up going, you know what? I think I like this guy more. Because you know what?

Last year, I don't know how many times I was told that you're missing the boat. I mean, there is no way CJ's better than Bryce. There's just no way. There's no way.

There's no way. There's no way he had all these wide receivers at Ohio State. You saw what happened to Dwyane Haskins. You saw what happened to all these other quarterbacks. Ohio State quarterbacks stink.

They're just a product of Ryan's system. You saw his test score. You've heard that he's a little surly and he's a guy who doesn't, you know, it takes a little bit of time to warm up to authority, blah, blah, blah. And what Bryce would you hear? It was like, he's the only problem. He's just little, but otherwise he's perfect. He played for Nick, and I love Nick. Don't get me wrong.

I love Nick. That's my guy. He had no wide receivers. He had spotty protection. You saw what he did against Texas. This guy's a former Heisman Trophy winner. There's no way he's not better than Bryce, I mean, than CJ. And who knows, maybe ultimately he still will be put into a different environment with better health.

But that's what I'm saying. Like, this thing, Caleb is phenomenal. I also know people who have been out there very publicly who feel as though Caleb is going to be a bust. People who don't trust him.

People who think Mike May's going to be the best quarterback of this bunch. So yeah, I think this thing is up for grabs. Much more with Lewis Riddick ahead, but first, we all know how frustrating it can be to find perfect tickets for a game or a concert you've been dying to see.

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You got this. Adidas. See I love this because again everyone thinks that everyone thinks it's so simple and it really matters about with whom you surround these guys too. Who's their line? Who's their coach? What's the relationship? What's the mix chemistry wise in the locker room?

It's not just as simple as taking one, two and three. And is there a running game because nothing takes pressure off a quarterback than a running game other than the offensive line. And as you both know like this isn't just a football discussion, right? This is I don't care if we're doing you know what the football or if we're doing get up or we're doing first take sports center. It doesn't matter. Our home life, our personal life, the relationships we're involved with, the support structures we have, our personal choices that we're making in terms of eating, drinking, sleeping, our mental health, all this stuff affects these guys.

All of it. You know how many players I've seen who stay up till three, four in the morning playing Madden arguing with their girlfriends and then come out there and have a bad game and people go, man that player just sucks. It's like you have no idea what he's dealing with.

All right. With all of the conversation with what are the Bears going to do? And are they going to trade Justin Fields and Ryan Paulson?

Who's he going to take? How is this all affecting Justin Fields psychologically? Oh, you know, when he said on, I think he was on, I'm going to say Brown's podcast, but he said, you know, I just want this to be over with.

I just want to know basically what's going on. And I'm kind of like tired of like people hitting me up. I'm tired of the speculation and all.

And that's why he had unfollowed Chicago, he said in the NFL and all, which look, maybe there's other ways that you can kind of ignore that speculation without unfollowing your specific team. But let me just say this. I relate to it in this way.

Every single time the month of January comes around, February comes around. And a GM job comes up. And 50, 100 fans hit me with the same question. Don't you want to be a GM? Why aren't you a GM? Don't you want to be a GM? Why aren't you a GM? Or I say something like, or maybe I make a comment about a player.

They disagree with it. And they go, that's why the hell you're not a GM. That starts to mess with you. Even if you know even if you know it's not true, even if you don't want to be, even if it doesn't really, in your mind, you're not thinking, I'm not thinking every day, damn, I'm not a GM, I'm not a GM. But when people start hammering you about it all the time, it does start to affect you.

And for Justin to constantly hear Caleb Williams name and about why he's so much better than you, of course, I totally understand. I would unplug from everything too. 100%.

I'm 54 years old. I'm not 21. That's such a great point. You know?

You know, Louis, you made another great point about that which we don't see in a player's life affects the player. Are they staying up till three in the morning? Are they arguing with a significant other? Do they have family issues?

Are there financial strains on their families? That's not visible to the public. As you well know, as everyone well knows, the Raiders picked Jamarcus Russell. And that was during my years with the team. Al made a decision that he thought Jamarcus was the right player. And I'm not here to defend the pick.

I don't need to defend the pick. We all know that it did not work out. Period. End of sentence. It did not work out. But I will share now because you just raised this issue. What people didn't see was what went on with Jamarcus between his rookie year when he got his first chance on the field with us and his second year.

He lost the most significant person in his life, died unexpectedly at a very early age. That was Jamarcus' support system. And again, I'm not offering this to defend the pick. I don't need to defend it. That is over.

It is done. My point is to simply note how wise your words were, because we knew behind the scenes that losing that person just knocked the legs out from under Jamarcus and things spiral downwards from there. So again, I note that simply to point out how wise you are to note that what the public doesn't see in a player's life often impacts the way a player plays. Unfortunately, the public doesn't care.

You're right. They don't. And all they care about, and then just this thing about how desensitized the public has become about everything that affects everyone. I mean, you can just go down the list. People just care about how is your performance or what is happening to you?

How does it affect me? And when it comes to football players in particular, I mean, we hear football players talk all the time about how fans yell at them, harass them, say good things or bad things simply based on how many fantasy points they got from one week to the next. It's just like, what? I mean, that's what we've come to. And when it comes to evaluating success or failure of players, it's almost like, OK, look, we put our expertise to use as analysts and try and project how a player is going to be without having all of the information.

I mean, we all have contacts. We ask scouts, we ask GMs and stuff about stuff that they know that they know that the public doesn't know to try to help us shape our opinions on guys, especially leading up to the draft. But even so, once they walk off that stage and go to that facility, you or me or anybody else who does this for a living, we don't control his environment inside that facility, what his locker room is like, what his home life is like.

So any number of things can go wrong for him that could knock the legs out from under him, like you're talking about with Jamarcus. Do you think fans care as it relates to what I said about the player? No, they're like, you're an idiot. You're wrong. You were wrong about the guy. It's like, well, OK, let alone the guy himself.

They really don't care about his own personal well-being or his life. So, yeah, I mean, that's just kind of like how it goes. And we accept it. I mean, we get it. We understand how the world works and how people are.

But there's just so many things for these guys. I mean, these guys, it sounds so obvious to say they're human beings. But it's not obvious because people don't remember that nine out of 10 times and they don't care. They just don't. When people, when guys strapped into the cockpit, as I like to say, and put that helmet on, as Mike Tomlin says, you're just a nameless, gray face to a lot of people.

You're just an asset. And if you're not performing, people are like, get him out of here and get the next guy in. Let's look at some of the guys like J.J. McCarthy, Michael Pennix. We don't talk about them. These are guys that are showing up and throwing. Who are the best of those guys?

Who are you most looking forward to seeing and why? I think actually seeing those two, seeing J.J. and juxtaposing him with Michael and even a guy like, I didn't see anywhere where Spencer didn't say he wasn't throwing. I believe Spencer Radler will throw.

Like that right there, that's a great mix of guys right there. Okay, Spencer, the guy who was like, Mr. Football, gets replaced at Oklahoma. The people at South Carolina think that he is like someone who the best football is just way ahead of him still. They believe that people don't understand him, got labeled immature when he was at Oklahoma.

They think that a lot of that will come back around and start working to in his favor because he's super talented. I saw him down at the Senior Bowl. Seeing him juxtaposing him with Michael, who's the lefty, much different, throwing motion, great deep ball, had that great season at Washington. And then J.J., who played in an offense that wasn't really pass-centric, much more run, play action, old school, but who many believe when you pack it all together, probably is the guy who could burst out of this whole group and have everyone going, whoa, whoa, whoa, what did we miss here?

A much more heralded Brock Purdy. So I love that group of guys right there and getting to see them all line up behind one another, throw to receivers that they've never thrown to, and just always see which guy gets on the same page with the receivers the fastest. Because that's what C.J. Stroud did, that's what Baker Mayfield did. These dudes got on the same page with these guys immediately, and you're like, see, that's what I'm talking about. That's what great quarterbacks do. They don't care.

They could be throwing to me out there. They'll find a way to make it work. And see, that's what I'm looking forward to with these guys, and I bet all three of them have great workouts. You know what I forgot to ask you about, Justin Fields. Do we have any idea how good he can be? We have some of what it will look like or what it could look like, but we don't know ultimately what his upside is.

There's just no way you can. If this was simply an issue with Justin Fields, if Chicago, who has more information than anybody, thought this was simply an issue with Justin Fields, then why has Luke Getze gone? Why did they fire him? Why did they revamp the entire coaching staff?

There were two things that were wrong there, and we know that he doesn't have the same kind of weaponry that, let's say, that even Jordan Love has in his own division. Another young guy who, it took a couple years, he sat behind a Hall of Famer. He's been coached by someone who's very well renowned and very well respected as being a groomer of quarterbacks. And Coach LaFleur has all those young guys now around him, all those first and second year wide receivers, good offensive line, good running game. Look what happens. Boom. Justin hasn't been around that kind of thing. He hasn't had that kind of nice orderly progression. Everyone says this, too, right? Patrick Mahomes.

He would have been good no matter what. How do you know? How do you know that? You don't know them.

But he was in a very good situation, that's for sure. So yeah, to answer your question, I'm sorry to go on like this. I just feel real strongly about this. And I hate when people discount it. I'm glad that you brought it up. Environment is everything.

It's everything. And people know it, but they'll dismiss it anyway, because we need to blame somebody. We either need to make somebody a hero or crush them. That's the way we are as sports fans. You're either the best ever or you suck. Get out of here.

There's no gray area. The topic you just raised is a great segue to Herbert with the Chargers, because it's my view that he has not yet had a coach in the NFL who has best positioned him to be his best. I feel strongly that Jim Harbaugh will do that.

And I think their addition of Mark Trestman in an advisory senior role is going to help immensely. I'd love your views, your input, your thoughts, what you think about Justin Herbert and what the changes in coaching could mean there. Justin, you get a sense that the kid is just hungry for football knowledge, to be coached, to be taught, he wants to be a great teammate, he wants to be held accountable, all that stuff.

And I talked to him I believe twice, and he just has a great demeanor about him. So I don't see any issues with his dedication to the game, his football intelligence, his ability to get on with his team, none of that. When you see Jim Harbaugh talk about coaching Justin Herbert, that's really all you need to know. He's more jacked up about coaching him than, you just don't see coaches get that excited, right? So he already has the want to, Jim has the credibility, he's going to build the relationship with him, he's obviously competent when it comes to quarterback teaching, and he's already shown you that he can impact players at that position as well as anybody, any coach in the league, college or pro. So to me, you have the kid who wants it, the coach who's dying to give it to him, and he's been proven to be a guy who can build programs in the NFL in college. I mean, if you're a Charger fan, you're just like, finally, here we go. So if you can't make it work here as an organization and kind of get over that hump, or really start putting the pressure on Kansas City, given how talented this young man is, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm all in on that. Question for you. We were talking about this earlier with Vernon Davis. He was the shocked guy that came on the scene at the combine, that people were talking about him and saying, who the hell is this guy after playing at Maryland? Who do you think is going to be the shocked player this year? Oh, I don't know.

You know, I'm really, you know, okay. Maybe it's, maybe it's the wide receiver out of South Carolina, Xavier LeGette, who people are going to go, who? Xavier what? X-Man who?

He's a guy. You turn on South Carolina's tape this year. I believe he was, he may have been, he may have had the fastest recorded game speed time. It was a little shallow route that he took for about 70 yards. I think it was against Jackson State, maybe, where I think he may have hit some kind of crazy mile per hour on the GPS. He's, I think he had over 11, 1,200 yards receiving this year. I think when he tests, when he runs and jumps, I think people are going to go, what?

See, I haven't read Bruce's breaks list this year for guys who may be shocked at the combine from a testing perspective, but I just know Xavier LeGette can play and he's a freak athlete. And I've seen him in person and I've talked to Shane Beamer about him and we did a Texas A&M, a South Carolina game down in College Station. And he's one of those dudes, like before the game, you know, you go down the field and you're watching the guys. I just want to, I went over and stood next to him and I just kept staring at him. And I know he was looking at me like, why is this dude looking at me?

I've had a couple, I've had that happen a couple times. I remember doing that to Julius Peppers the first time I saw Julius Peppers in person. I just couldn't believe that this man was 6'6 and 285 pounds and he looked like he weighed about 190. He was just so lean. So yeah, remember that name, wide receiver Xavier LeGette. That's the guy for me.

I love it. And before we let you go, for agencies around the corner, what will be the biggest name you think? What's going to be the surprise? Oh, I think, and for agency, probably the intrigue for me is what happens with these backs, how the backs kind of shape out. Because I think the running backs this year could really, like think about a team like Dallas, like what do they do with Tony Pollard? And, and, or do they go for a different profile of guy? And do they get a Derrick Henry, which is, I believe that profile is what they need.

I mean, people have talked about it before. They need that component. I think that's the kind of thing that takes them and pushes them over the top. Like, so that, that, that's the, from a pure football perspective, obviously the Jerry Snead, Chris Jones, what does Brett V down there about getting those guys signed to extensions? Do they go ahead and tag the Jerry's? What happens with T? Is Cincy really going to be able to pay him and Jamar?

Are they going to dangle him out there on the market and just get a haul for him? That kind of thing. I think those are all great stories right there. St. Quan. Yep.

Yep. Josh Jacobs. There's a bunch of good ones.

There's a bunch of good ones. I hate the devaluing of running backs. I get it. Oh, don't even get me started.

Yeah. Um, the better your running game, the better your passing game. It's just, it's math. It's math. It's 11 on 11. And if you have a solid, solid or impressive running game, the defense has to focus on that.

And that's less they can do with respect to your receivers. It's just math. And Louis, she hates math. I really do. Just don't give me a word problem, Louis. Yeah.

I hated word problems too. Thank you so much for your time. This is so enjoyable to have these conversations with you. Your knowledge is so deep and so intense. And we really try on this podcast to talk about things that aren't the usual, that you can't just get somewhere else. I mean, I can sit here and quiz you on one through a billion and just go through the guys, but like, it's gotta be like the bigger issues. Like, like I am very concerned on the Justin Fields front, on the mental health of this kid. And I want to see him succeed in whether it's going to be in Pittsburgh or whether there's, you know, machinations of going to the Patriots and trading around and, and, and, and these trades that will happen this week, people forget that there is a personal component to them.

And I just think that the psychology of college football has changed so dramatically that this is going to be one of many drafts that we see in 20 years, how it actually played out. Well, and I'll just add to what Susie said about the podcast, that we have a rule for our guests. We only have very smart, wise guests. So you fit that bill perfectly. And I adored you before this, and I adore you even more now. So many wise, wise, wise things you shared. Well, you know, I'm a, you know, I'm a fan. And Susie, look, I, I, Rich is one of my favorite dudes. You know, he's always, he's always been great.

His show has always been great. And yeah, I think these next level discussions that kind of like go past the, what was your favorite running back? You know, like when you're talking about the development of players. Look, I know we're probably still going on maybe too long here, but I'll just tell you a quick story. So Sean McVeigh came on our, on Monday countdown, the year that San Francisco and Kansas City played the first time down in Miami. And he was a part of our long free game show then. And I could tell in our production meeting the night before, like it was himself, Steve Young, myself, Schefter was in there and all.

It was the longest production meeting in the history of mankind. But it wasn't just about X's and O's. It was about players and relationships. How do you get the best out of players?

What do players respond to? How Sean has changed? How he felt like he still needed to change and stuff. Then we got on air. And the next day we totally blew up the script because we would start talking. And then it just became a conversation, right? It wasn't just your turn, your turn, your turn, go to break your turn, your turn, your turn.

Steve Young didn't care. He'd just be like, Hey, I'm going to follow up on what you just said. And it would just become back and forth. And we were just texting each other the other day before the Super Bowl.

And I said, that's the best show in what, 11 years of TV now, 12 years, whatever it's been, it's the best show I've ever done because it was like that, that next level. And that's what this feels like. This kind of conversation feels like that where it's just, you know, we're not talking about can he throw the dagger out or how does he throw the nine ball? How's his fade stop ball? You know, I don't, it's about how is Justin Field? How do you think he's be because that you're right. You're right. That's why I think Pittsburgh going with, you know, being around Mike Tomlin, maybe going down to Atlanta and being around Rahim and Zach Robinson and TJ Yates, the quarterback coach, and maybe Arthur being able to insulate them all. Maybe he'll, you know, maybe this is one of those situations where you go back home.

Maybe it's a good thing for your mental health because you've got people who are supporting you in love. Like those things are huge. And I think they'll play a big role just as you're alluding to.

Yeah. Louis, as we go, I mean, that's what I lived through with Pete Carroll and Carson Palmer. I mean, he was Carson was a shell of himself after Hackett left. He couldn't see straight kid had lost all of his confidence. And this is, as you would say, the prototypical big quarterback. He may not have been the greatest NFL quarterback, but he sure played the hell out of USC. And a lot of it was by getting his confidence back with Pete Carroll and like having the coaching staff build around him and throw out that Jets playbook that was like this thick.

These kids didn't get it. And it was just about fighting that confidence level and having somebody believe in you again. And maybe that's just what Justin Fields needs. Yeah, I hope so. Well, thanks again for your time. We so appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You bet. Take care. We really hope you enjoyed that conversation with Louis Riddick, the next What the Football podcast will drop three 19 right in the middle of free agency craziness, a wonderful, wonderful conversation.

It really was. Thanks for downloading this. Send us comments and questions. We look forward to joining you soon.

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