What the Football with Suzy Shuster and Amy Trask: 18 with Albert Breer

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Learn more at discover.com slash credit card. Limitations apply. This is What the Football, Susie Schuster and Amy Trask with you. We are psyched to be with you. We have so much to talk about today that I basically just asked Don Bui, our producer. I'm like, can we just get going? Let's just start rolling.

Give me some new music, Mike Del Tufo, and let's get started. This is What the Football brought to you by GameTime. I want to tell you about this fast and easy way first because I did use it last Friday to go to UCLA Bruins Women's Basketball with Taylor. I was able to go last second, bought some tickets last minute, got the best deals, the best price guaranteed, and I got to see where I was sitting. And by the way, UCLA Bruins Women's destroyed Oregon.

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Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. You know, guys, we get together, we talk about what we want to talk about for this podcast. Amy and I send messages. We call, we email.

And by the way, Albert Brier will join us shortly. So we have a great guest today to talk about everything, but I digress. We talk about in advance, and we both had the same thing coming into this because we feel like you can get look-aheads at what's happening this weekend from other places. Don't you think, Amy? But we want to be able to dissect stories.

And we saw a story that we both said, that's what I want to talk about, but from different perspectives. Don't you feel that way, Amy? I do. So I felt right away. Excuse me one second. I love that when we talk about any particular story, newsworthy, not newsworthy, we do bring different perspectives. And I think that makes the discussion a lot of fun.

Agreed. I watched the game, the Saints-Falcons game, and watched James Winston call that audible. And he said on behalf of the entire team. And I thought to myself, in what world does a quarterback call an audible on behalf of a team? And I get that they wanted to score a touchdown for Jamal Williams.

They're running back. He said it was a team decision for the Saints to call this audible at the line of scrimmage in a victory formation, which of course is the universal code for, we're not doing anything. And he said, well, his coach had asked him to take the knee, but they went for it. And Marshall Faulk was over last night watching the Michigan game.

We obviously taped this on a Tuesday. And I said to Marshall, in what world will Jamis be back? And he looked at me as like, not quite sure there is a world.

And Amy, I would ask you what your reaction was. In what world does this happen to a team where a quarterback basically gives his head coach the middle finger? In what world? When your head coach is Dennis Allen.

Susie, I'm speaking from experience. As you know, I overlapped with Dennis Allen in Oakland for one year. And everything I observed during that year is such that when that play happened, I wasn't the least bit surprised. Now, if it happened to any other coach, I would have been surprised. It happened and Dennis was a coach.

I was not the least bit surprised. Shortly after Dennis was hired by the Saints, I was asked about him, about his coaching, his leadership on CBS Sports, on that other pregame show, CBS Sports Network. And I answered in the following manner, because now I have an addition to that answer. I shared my views of Dennis's leadership, and I use that word in quotes, while he was with the Raiders. And I quickly noted that, look, we can all learn on the job. We can grow on the job. We can improve on the job. I not only grew on my job, I grew up on the job. I grew up on the job. I learned. I made mistakes. And I said, Dennis can do that as well. And what that play made clear to me is he has not changed his leadership style. So was I surprised that that happened? I may have been one of the only people who was not surprised that happened.

Okay. So what do you know that we don't know? Well, I observed him for a year. I don't know if it was 12 months, but it was obviously for a full season in Oakland. Day one, he's hired, calls a staff meeting or asks that a staff meeting be called of every single person in the organization. And everyone was so excited. And every single department, coaching, trainers, equipment, tickets. I made sure every business department was there.

The auditorium was packed. And he got up and he was really rude. Not only didn't he demonstrate leadership to enthuse the staff and to excite the staff and to lead the staff, he was demeaning. He was derisive. And people walked out of that room just stunned.

Can you give some specifics? Because now I'm fascinated to know what it was that was so rude. I'm sorry that I don't have any specific quotes. It was quite a while ago. But my overall impression, and by the way, after that meeting, there was a line, and I don't mean literally a line, but people flooding into my office from the finance department and the video department and the legal department just looking at me like, what was that? And again, I'm not here. Well, I'm here.

I'm right next to you. But my point is not to belabor the past. But I gave him every benefit of the doubt that he would learn and grow from what happened in Oakland. Just like as I said, I learned on the job. I grew on the job. I made mistakes on the job.

I like to believe. I improved on the job. I gave him the same benefit of the doubt that he could go to New Orleans and learn from what went wrong in Oakland, where the locker room, you know, there's that expression, he lost the locker room. I don't know that he ever had the locker room to lose it. But what I saw in that game, when Jamis indicated that, yes, he knew the team was instructed to take a knee in a victory formation, but the team decided not to do that, that told me everything I needed to know.

Yeah, he was fired four games into his third year. What did you see in particular in that locker room? It wasn't in the locker room.

I use the, you know, I use the word the locker room sort of in the broad sense. Players' demeanors on the sideline during practice, a lack of energy, a lack of passion. There are coaches for whom players would run through a wall. That's an old expression, but there really are coaches for whom players would run through a wall and for whom players would do anything. I saw the opposite in our team. It appeared to me, and I'm not putting words in a player's mouth, but players would do the minimum for him. And it's so interesting because there are so many coaches that aren't doing well, like Bill Belichick, where even this week Ezekiel Elliott comes out and says, he's been the best coach I've ever had.

That's one year after many years with the Cowboys. There are coaches that we refer to as players' coaches. And it seems to me that you're unpacking maybe a history of him being the opposite. Well, and you're absolutely right that some coaches are denominated player coaches. I don't believe you need to be a quote player coach, close quote, to have players respect you. You made the perfect example of Bill Belichick.

You pointed that out. Nobody's going to say, oh, he's a player's coach, but players respect him and play for him. Look at D'Amico Ryan in Houston. Did you see the reaction of that team, both on the sideline, in the tunnel and in the locker room when they clinched the division?

Those are players and a coach who are working together, all of whom are trying to, or each or all are trying to make the others be their best. I had the sense and some players shared with me that that was not what they experienced with Dennis. And again, we all grow up.

We all grow. I thought he could be better in New Orleans. And I may be the only person to tell you this, but when I saw that in New Orleans, I was not the slightest bit surprised. Any other coach I'd have been stunned. Can you share who the players were that were? I would, if I could remember who they were, Suze, but it was over a decade ago. I don't remember what I had for dinner last night. Well, you know what? Now that you mentioned it, neither do I.

If they occur to me as we're talking, I won't hesitate to share with you. But I will say that I do remember some were veterans, seasoned veterans who'd played for a lot of coaches. And it was the first time in my career I'd seen that. Now, look, Al had a lot of coaches while I was with the team. Some of those coaches did well, some did not, but I never experienced anything. Again, it's hard for me to describe that first staff meeting where every single person who worked in every single office, every department was in that auditorium.

And this was a moment for him to incentivize everyone and excite everyone and build a feeling of teamwork that we're going to improve together as a team. He was dismissive of everyone. He was derisive.

He was just, frankly, to use an easier word that's not multi-syllabic and doesn't begin in D, he was rude. I thought you were going to go with a different D word. Oh, I could. I could, but I don't know if that would have to be bleeped on a podcast. I don't know.

Dawn, can we go with that one? I think we'll just... Look, there are men for whom, with coaches for whom people would run through a wall. There are women for whom people would run through a wall.

Nobody's running through a wall for him. No, I think that we all can relate to that feeling of when you start something new and you go into the conference room and you're so fired up and you walk out, you think, what the hell just happened? That's exact- Suzy, you just summed it up and you weren't in the room and that was exactly what happened. People were walking to my office looking at me like, what the hell just happened? And here I am trying to be a teammate and say, well, you know, maybe he's not used to addressing a big group, but it became very clear. He just was not nice.

Yeah. I can't wait to get Albert Breer's take on this because we have so many, everything we come upon in this conversation. The Texans, if we talk about any of these coaches that we're debating, Albert will have some info and help us along with this. But the fact to me that Alan hasn't been fired yet on a Tuesday, I think is remarkable. It seems to me like he has 100% lost this locker room. We're talking about James Winston having resigned on his birthday a couple of days ago for a new contract, which means nothing.

They can let him go, but I can't imagine how you move forward into this next season with a quarterback. Yes, he's the backup, but if the whole team, and there was a great back and forth, and if you haven't seen it, go find this video of James Winston talking to a reporter who keeps saying, respectfully, respectfully, and we all know what happens with respectfully. It's like with all due respect, whatever you say afterwards is what you really mean after with all due respect. I was nervous watching it because I found it to be so tense. But if the whole team made the decision to abandon the victory formation and score a touchdown that means nothing, that's the perfect evidence that he has lost the confidence of the entire team. And perhaps more than the confidence. And it's interesting because as is often the case, you and I had different reactions to that interview and that video of Jamis.

It made you uncomfortable or nervous, I think you said. It made me feel really good about Jamis because he was doing what I believe in doing, which is disagreeing agreeably. And he was telling that reporter, look, I disagree. I'm doing it respectfully. I disagree.

He held his ground. Two more things. One, if they retain Dennis as a head coach, a lot of people will say, well, then they need to get rid of Jamis Winston just to prove a point.

Let me tell you something. They get rid of Jamis Winston to prove a point and support Dennis. He may lose a lot more of that locker room.

No doubt. You don't just cut someone out of a business. I'm not simply talking football, but if he says I'm getting rid of him because he disrespected me, guess what?

A lot more people may as well. Sometimes people disrespect you and you need to find a way to work together. The other thing is I said something very flippantly when I last talked about that staff meeting and I said, he wasn't nice. And I was being somewhat silly.

I was thinking of the movie Mean Girls. You don't have to be nice. I want to make that clear. You don't have to be nice. There's a lot of very, very good leaders who aren't sweet and nice and loving, but they're leaders and Dennis wasn't.

Yeah. And it's funny because you are known throughout football as somebody who is a kind and compassionate, caring, but nobody pretends you weren't a murderous in a business meeting. Well, and that's right. And I will forever, ever love Princess of Darkness as my nickname. And the point is it was not bestowed upon me in a complimentary manner. Mike Silver wrote an article in Sports Illustrated in which he quoted unnamed sources saying, we call her the princess of darkness behind her back. And you know what?

I loved it and Raider fans loved it. And frankly, I think we should probably call me that on this podcast just because it's the best nickname ever. But the point is right. It is not mutually inconsistent to be as hard and tough and strong as you need to be.

And yet also care about people. So let's talk about Jamis Winston for one second before we set up for Albert Breer. Cause I'm so excited to have him too. And you know, he's in a really precarious position. He's clearly beloved by his teammates. He's in the backup side of life.

The role of the of the black quarterback in the NFL is as you know, as one of one of my good friends, who's a hall of Famer said to me as a precarious one, but he is in a position to, you know, look, he signed this deal, which as we know, he can be cut at any time. He'll get paid. He'll receive money.

I believe. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer.

I'm not a business person. And we glanced through it very quickly, but I just wonder how you have both moving forward. This seems to me like, it's a head scratcher. Well, and I think Dennis can demonstrate leadership if they both are there going forward, because it could send a very, very powerful message. If Dennis is able to work through things with Jamis and say, you didn't adhere to what I instructed, you gave me your reasons. I didn't like it, but let's sit down and let's work this through. And if they do, and if he retains Dennis, if I'm another, not Dennis, if he retains Jamis, if I'm another player on that team, I respect that.

I'm like, you know what? The coach found a way to understand why we did what we did. And he and Jamis have worked through this and we're moving forward. I think it's dangerous for them to get rid of Jamis, because that sends a message that if the coach doesn't think you're his guy, you're gone irrespective of what other players think of you and irrespective of whether the team needs you. And it looked like Dennis was going to lose his job because his team was losing until the last couple of games. So what they win the four or the last five, and it looked like he just might lose because they were in the toilet.

But now, see if I own this team, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do because it leaves the season feeling, or not leaving the season quite yet, but it makes you feel like who's running this crazy asylum? Well, again, none of that surprised me. In that game, New Orleans won and they still were alive for a playoff spot. Had Seattle and Green Bay games gone differently, they'd be in the playoffs. And then this might be being evaluated differently. But again, my biggest takeaway from that play was I wasn't surprised by it, given who the head coach was.

Yeah. Saints finishing the season nine and eight, his first winning season in his tenure there with the Saints. We will ask Albert Breer about the situation in New Orleans when he joins us in a moment. We'll also ask him about Mike Vrabel, who of course was fired today, this Tuesday. Questions about who will replace Bill Belichick if, when, as in when Bill Belichick then leaves. D'Amico Ryans, let's talk about him. And let's look ahead at the playoffs too, gives the people what they want.

And in regard, looking ahead, I also have a question for him about the Chiefs. Now has that for a little bit of a tease. That's a tease, Amy. But first I'm going to tell you about my favorite app, which is gametime.co. And again, if you were listening 20 minutes ago, then you know that I just used it on Friday. It's awesome, you guys. It's so easy.

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Learn more at discover.com slash credit card. Limitations apply. Thrilled to have Albert Breer join us now, as of course we would be. And Albert, I'm just telling you right now, life is much better now that Rich Eisen is a happy person after Michigan won the national championship, but you don't know anything about that, do you? Oh, it's been a few years. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm happier to be talking to you than your husband right now, Susie. How's that? Well, I guess of course, excuse me, I would hope that would always be the case. Well, I had to say like with the Ohio state background that you have everywhere around your head, it's a good thing you didn't go on with rich because he would probably, um, say some decisive derisive things about it in the background, but I try to take a higher road.

He was, he kind of like showed his stress a little last night on Twitter though. I mean, I'm sure you got to experience it, but you know, my, my wife here, uh, she, uh, during Ohio state games, it's like can be felt through my house. And, you know, like I said to you guys, just for the listeners benefit here, because said to you guys off the air a second ago, my dog, uh, my dog runs into a corner and stays in the corner of our bedroom.

When Ohio state games are on and I don't watch in the bedroom, I watch downstairs, but he wants to get as far away from me as possible because he can feel the stress. So, um, maybe that's one thing me and rich can, can, can relate on. And when you did share that with you, Albert, I noted that I serve as counsel to your dog. And number one, don't do that to my client.

And number two, give my client extra treats, please. But by the way, when rich, when, when Michigan scored, you know, and any time Michigan scores rich gets up and starts screaming and hollering and hooting and Marshall was there. And our friend Jimmy was there and a bunch of the kids and the dogs started attacking each other because they're golden retriever. So attack guys with quotation marks, but they start fighting with each other.

When rich is like screaming in the house and running around, but they think that's a sign for their dad's losing their mind. So there was a lot of losing minds last night. You can imagine we were just talking about Dennis Allen and James Winston and how bizarre that's going to be. I would have loved to have started with that, but the news that Mike Ravel was fired today on this Tuesday came out and I'm wondering your reaction to this. I mean, it's, it's obviously a little stunning. Um, the word fired, I think is what's stunning about it. You know, there have been enough, um, enough rumors floating around and I think some of them are wrong still, but enough rumors floating around, um, that he might wind up being out, um, that's, this wasn't completely off the board. I think the availability of the new England job sort of, you know, heightened that over the last few weeks. Um, I don't think this is about the relationship between him and Rand Carson though.

I know that's been out there. I think as much as anything else, this is about, you know, the, the owner there, Amy Adam Strunk looking for a certain structure and not finding it with Mike as part of it. And, you know, I think it's, I think if you look at like the history of the, you know, of the last seven, eight years there, you can go back to when John Robinson was hired and then they keep the interim coach and then Mike Malarkey is there and they win their first playoff game in 14 years. And, and Mike Malarkey is fired.

Um, you know, a couple of days later after he had said, said something a week before that, then they aligned Brable and Robinson and, and, and Robinson gets fired, you know, four years later based on the AJ Brown trade. And I think she wanted a more, you know, open friendly environment. So, um, and forward thinking environment. So she goes to, you know, mind the Niners to get that and they bring in Rand Carson.

And then as they're building out that environment, oh, wait a minute. Now maybe Mike Brable doesn't fit into it. So, you know, I think as much as anything else, like if you look at like the history of this and the way it's played out, you know, it sort of feels like an owner who doesn't know exactly what she's looking for and has been looking for something different at different points and it's led to some instability in the organization. And, um, you know, I think that that's to, to get, to get rid of coach, of a coach, the caliber of Mike Brable as a part of that, I think is, is, is a really tough thing. And it's going to put a lot of pressure on, on people there, Amy, you know, ran the other people in that building to get the head coaching higher.

Right. Because I do think Mike's going to be able to go somewhere else and be successful. Well, I love the points that you just made in every regard as to Amy, um, the other, Amy, I should say, and what she's looking for. Because when I learned of this firing, it immediately brought to mind something I'm known for saying, which is, and do what she fired Mike Brable.

I hope that she and the organization asked of themselves and do what, because if the answer isn't at a minimum, as good as Mike and one would expect or hope they need to believe it's better than Mike, then what are they doing? Yeah. And that's, and I think like as much as anything else, Amy, I think this is about finding a plan and sticking to it. And I think veering from this plan from their previous plan, um, in sort of like a scattershot way, you know, they were when they fired John Robinson a year ago, they were seven and five and in first place and they'd won the division two years in a row. So they were fighting for their third straight division title. Now were things perfect?

No, you know, the roster wasn't in a great place after 2022. And she saw that coming, I'm sure. And, um, you know, there were other things that maybe needed to be modernized and, and, and all the rest of it, but, um, it's okay. Like, so we're going to do this one half measure and then, you know, we're going to keep our head coach because we really love our head coach, but let's go with this plan over here. And it's just, it's like, you're making moves that are sort of like sovereign to each other.

Like, you know, like the moves don't really tie together. And so I think that's why it's really important now for, for, for Amy to look at what she's got in the building, you know, and ran in the front office and look at what she's got in the roster and look at the, you know, I think what's going to be a relatively long-term build in front of her and pick a plan and stick to it. And, you know, like, and, and, and, and find somebody who fits what Rand Carthon is building in the front office, what, you know, people like, you know, Chad Brinker are building in that front office and find a coach that fits with them and tie them together and basically tell them.

And I know this is, you know, something that's can be hard to stick to sometimes, but basically tell them you guys are tied to each other and that's it, you know, and if one of you goes down, everybody's going down. I think they have to be, they have to find a way to, you know, create, create something organizationally that's a little bit more tied together than, than it has been over the last year. So do you have a hunch who it might be? I mean, the one name that I think is, you know, the obvious one would be Bobby Slowik, who, you know, was with Rand in San Francisco. He's the offensive coordinator with the Texans now. For what it's worth, the Adams family, they live in, they still live in Houston, even though they own the Titans. So they're obviously, there's a lot of exposure there to, to what's going on in Houston this year. You know, and if you're looking for an offensive, a young offensive coach, Bobby's, you know, at the top of some lists and obviously he's done a lot of good with CJ Stroud.

So that's the obvious one. Now, I think if you had hired, if you had done this a year ago and you had Rand coming over from San Francisco, he might've actually hired D'Amico Ryan, you know, and, you know, again, like that's something that, you know, that staff there in Houston is something that Amy and her family are exposed to because they live there. And so, you know, I think if you're fine, if you're looking for a way to kind of build an organization that's going to be collaborative, where people are going to be tied together, where people know, you know, there's one way we're going to do things and we're either, it's either going to work or it's not, but you know, if one of us goes down, all of us are going to go down, you know, I think you have to find somebody who is going to align, you know, with Rand in that front office. And that doesn't mean that it necessarily has to be someone who has background in San Francisco, but certainly there'd be less guessing on that if you have somebody who's worked with Rand before. I love what you said about finding a way to work together.

Albert, I have long said that if I owned a business and an employee came to me and said, it's him or it's me, my answer would be either you two find a way to work together or you're both gone. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that, that I, you know, it's, it's amazing. Amy is like, you know, in my years covering the NFL, like the percentage of organizations that are screwed up because people can't get along is staggering, you know? And I don't know if it's this way in every business, cause you know, like this is what I've done for my entire professional life. Um, but like the amount of times that, um, owners will hire GMs and coaches and just guess that they'll get along or project that this is going to work.

And then it blows up in their face. I mean, the same mistakes are made over and over and over again. And so, um, you know, there are examples of guys coming from different backgrounds and, and coming together and working together and it working, but you better be real sure if you're going to do that.

And if not, it makes sense to take the guesswork out of it and get guys who you already know are aligned. Because again, like I think the number one thing that takes these organizations down, that makes teams lose, that makes organizations dysfunctional is having a bunch of people who are not on the same page and who get into a situation because of that two or three years down the line where it just, you know, it turns into the hunger games. You know, um, you just, you see it way too often across the NFL.

And it's, it's really amazing to me how often owners don't learn from the lessons that are right there for them. All right, folks, let's talk about game time. And let's talk about buying tickets to big time events because it can be worrisome.

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Download game time today. Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. This episode is brought to you by Kia's first three row all electric SUV, the Kia EV9 with available all wheel drive and seating for up to seven adults with a zero to 60 speed that thrills you one minute and available reclining lounge seats that unwind you the next. Visit kia.com slash EV9 to learn more.

Ask your Kia dealer for availability. No system, no matter how advanced can compensate for all driver error and or driving conditions, always drive safely. Well, that plays right into the conversation that I want to have with you now about New England, because how, how do you believe Rabel's availability will affect Kraft's decision on what to do with Belichick? I, I think he's already made his mind up on Belichick, Susie. So I think that on Belichick, this is more about how it looks and whether or not those guys can play ball with each other. You know, in other words, you know, Kraft has been up for the hall of fame. It's very important to him that he gets in. Right. And his legacy is important to him as it should be, as it would be for anybody who'd be in that position.

Right. So, um, you know, the way the Brady thing played out four years ago, I think marks all of this. And so, you know, if, if you're Bill, are you willing to play ball with like a mutual parting of ways that makes everyone look, you know, like classy, right? Yeah, you probably would be, you might be okay with that, but would you be okay with that if that means the Patriots are, you know, holding you to your contract and saying, you know, we'll do it as long as we get a draft pick from someone else.

Well, now you're talking about something else and Bill could certainly say in that circumstance, well, wait a minute. Like I just gave you 24 years that are better than any coach has ever given any team ever. And you're going to, you're going to hold me to my contract when you're getting rid of me and you're going to force the team that I'm going to, to give up a first or a second round pick that I could spend on a player.

No, I'm not doing that. So, you know, I think what this week is about as much as anything for, you know, the, um, for the crafts and for, for Belichick is a figuring out where it all went wrong, which is part of all of these discussions always. And then be figuring out what the best way to separate is. And, you know, you'd hope based on all they've accomplished together that it wouldn't come down to Kraft saying, we need to get a draft picks for you if you're going to go somewhere else. And Belichick saying, okay, then fire me.

But I wouldn't rule something like that out either. And then the hall of fame red jacket that Rabel wore when he got inducted into the Patriots hall of fame is still in the, my answer was too long. No, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm bringing you back around because that's what I do. Um, but it's still in the plastic bag. Right. Let me get the joke out. Right. Let me just finish it. Let me pay it off. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, is it too soon and too ridiculous to assume like I'm from new England? So I I'm like, absolutely bring back for evil. Let him come home.

Let him be loved back in the days where we were winning. So here's the question. Is it a foregone conclusion that Rabel is the next Patriots head coach? I don't think it's for a foregone conclusion. I think a lot of it depends again on that word structure.

Right. And so like, I think I look at like Mike and again, like I, I think the idea that there was a huge problem between him and ran was over, was completely overblown. But I do think that like, there's a certain structure that Mike would be more comfortable with, which includes the head coach having a lot of say in personnel. And if you look at his history and where Mike has worked and where he played, he played in Bill Cowher's Pittsburgh. He played in Bill Belichick's new England. He worked in urban Myers, Ohio state.

He worked in bill O'Brien's Houston, all places that had head coaches who had a lot of say as far as picking the players go. So there's Robert Kraft with his team needing like a pretty serious overhaul. I'm sure he loves Mike and would love to have Mike as his head coach. Is he okay with going all in on Mike to that degree? And then, you know, if you're Mike, are you comfortable going to a place that right now doesn't have a quarterback and needs probably a year or two, an off season or two to get itself back to where it needs to be?

I think those are the most relevant questions. And that's without even getting to the loyalty that Robert has to Gerard Mayo, who by the way, last year turned down a head coach interview with the Carolina Panthers to remain his linebackers coach with the Patriots and who came to an agreement with the Patriots where the contracts and, you know, Amy, you'll understand why they would do this, right? Like the contracts dovetail.

They set it up. So Belichick's contract and Mayo's contract expire at the same time to give Mayo a little protection here. And so, you know, there's a loyalty to Mayo come into play. I think that's another factor.

So funny. It's like loyalty is a factor and yet winning is even that much more important. And before we dive into something else, I will just say to Albert, based on everything he said, I really do believe Robert and Jonathan Kraft will handle this. Well, even if there's a divorce, a separation, they go their separate ways. I think they will handle it gracefully.

I'm sure they will. That's that's who you think, Amy, Amy, if you're them, do you ask for a draft pick? No, I don't because I want to do what's best for Bill. And, you know, it's one thing to say to Bill, we're going to go in a different direction, but you don't want to handcuff him, if you will, when you do that. Okay. Because I think that that felt like that to me is like the I that's one of the operative questions right now is do you do you do you need to get a draft pick back form? Because remember, they didn't get compensation for Brady. Well, look, I could be wrong.

Obviously, I'm wrong a lot. I could be wrong, but I don't think they will do that. Could they do that?

Yes, I don't think they will do that. Yeah, I think what you said Albert is dead on. I think right now, Robert's worrying about that bust in Canton. And he wants he loves thinking of himself. And again, I'm biased because I happen to love him. But as a statesman, like he thinks of himself as an ambassador for the league. And I think it's right now I think that he's going to make that he's going to tie this up with respect.

And he's going to, I think, handoff built wherever he goes next. Go ahead. No, you go ahead. No, but if I could add one thing to like, I think it's fair that you are concerned about your legacy if you're an owner, because I think with an owner, and Amy, you are around one of the most famous ones ever. Like your image is very fickle. Like how the public perceives you is very fickle, far more fickle than it is for a player or for a coach.

And I think there are two good examples of this, right? So what does everybody remember Eddie DeBartolo for? I feel like everybody remembers him for the casino scandal. And this is a guy who, when I was a kid, was seen as the absolute gold standard owner, not just in football, but in all the sports, right?

And yet, the casino things happens. And that's all anybody remembers him for now. Jerry Jones won three Super Bowls in his first seven years in Dallas with two different coaches. What does everybody remember that time? What was everybody remember about Jerry from that time? The divorce with Jimmy.

It could have been so much better if you didn't have the divorce with Jimmy, right? And my point in saying that is, I think the image of owners is far more fickle and volatile. And so if Robert is protective of his image, I actually understand it, because I think that there's a lot more on the line from a legacy standpoint in a situation like this for someone like Robert than there would be for someone like Bill or Tom. All right. So image is a perfect way to segue into my questions about Dennis Allen and what happened with James Winston, just because we talked about this at length before you came on.

And Amy has experience with Dennis Allen that she shared earlier. And let's just say it wasn't the most positive. So that's very gracious of you. Didn't you think? Yeah, it was.

It was. Albert, what's your reaction to what happened after the game? And how do they survive together? And does Dennis Allen survive at all? I think Dennis Allen does survive. I think there'll be changes on his staff, probably primarily on the offensive side of the ball. I think it's hard because in a situation like this, you want to empower your players. And every coach I think worth his salt like pursues having a team that's player led and player driven. And what you always hear these guys say is like, if we build the right culture, it's the players that are driving that culture. It's not the coach standing up in front of the room on a Saturday night. It's the players taking ownership of it. And so you want to empower your players, a situation like this, you know, like, I guess it sort of illustrates the fine line.

Right. And, you know, I think like the intention here wasn't horrible. You know, we've heard the way that people in Detroit talked about Jamal Williams, the way people in Green Bay talked about Jamal Williams. So like the idea that his, the teammates would want to get him a touchdown in that situation. And the fact that Jamis would want to get him a touchdown kind of makes sense to me, right?

Like that you'd want, you want that for your teammate, who's been such a great teammate in so many different places. The fact that they wouldn't run by that, that by the coaches is a little bit of a flag. It's not just leadership, it's respect for your coach. Again, I can't name one of the other 31 coaches where a player or a team of players would have done what the saints did without going over to their head coach and saying, Hey, look, this is something we really want to do. We want to pay, you know, respect to Jamal.

We want to give him this touchdown in the case of the saints. They didn't have that discussion. So I'm not suggesting that on another team players might not have wanted to do this. I am suggesting that I can't think of any other coach in the league now or prior to now that players wouldn't have run to on the sideline and said, Hey, Hey, Hey, can we do this? That the saints players did this without any communication whatsoever with Dennis, I think speaks to, you know, I'm using the word leadership, but as I think this through, the word I should be using is respect. I don't believe that they respect him as a leader or a coach. And based on my experience in Oakland with him as a head coach, that doesn't surprise me a bit. That's that's really interesting, especially when you consider how veteran or roster that is, like the amount of older players that they have on that roster and Jamis isn't new. And I mean, Jamis is what year eight, right?

Like, so he's not a young player anymore either. And then, you know, you know, you would like to see things like, you know, you have a failed run as a head coach and you'd like to see certain things turn around. And if there are things that you saw in Oakland that are repeating themselves that, that aren't good now in new Orleans, absolutely.

That'd be a red flag. And Albert, I love your point about growing on the job. And I made this point earlier with Susie, so I won't belabor it, but look, people can learn on the job. They can grow on the job. I made this point when, when Dennis got the job in new Orleans that we all learn on the job and grow on the job.

Gosh knows I made a lot of mistakes as I learned and I grew, but I like to believe I did learn and I did grow. I hope that would be the case for the saints, but what I've seen so far is there has been no growth. Yeah. And, and so now the question becomes, is it like how much of it, how much of that is him?

How much of it has were the raw? And I, and I think like what you're seeing too, is there's this question when you have a really great head coach, if you're just trying to reboot the old program, you know, and is he just running Sean Payton's program? And we talked about player ownership of the program and I'm sort of thinking my way through this now, but like talk about player ownership of the program. Is it their program and not Dennis Allen's program?

And that might empower them to feel like we're okay to do this. Here's my question for you. We talked about leadership, Jim Harbaugh, leader of men, Michigan guy. Where's he going? What's he going to do? I think he's going back to the league. I think it's, you know, a combination of, you know, he's obviously accomplished what he set out to accomplish at his alma mater. He's got 44 seniors leaving. You could say he can leave the program in good, in good shape with, you know, a really, really good head coaching candidate on his staff and Sharon Moore, who I think would probably get that job. And he has unfinished business in the league, you know, and so, and, you know, if you're him, like part of the risk we're going back to would be like the potential for NCAA sanctions. So, you know, I think he's all along had unfinished business in the league. I think over the last couple of years, interest in him has been very, very tepid, way more tepid than people think it's been. There hasn't been a ton of opportunity for him out there. And I think there probably will be more this year. And I think that like maybe the greatest thing that he can bring to the table is what he's built at Michigan looks just like what he built at San Francisco looks just like what he built at Stanford looks just like what he built in San Diego.

In other words, you know exactly what you're getting. And in that way, I think he's the modern day Bill Parcells. I think he comes in and shakes a program up and changes things right away.

And eventually he could wear people out. And so if you're making this higher, it's, we're not hiring him for 10 years. You have to be comfortable with we're hiring probably him for probably four or five years, but I think it's worth it. And so, you know, I think, you know, like the Chargers certainly are the one that like sort of fits the profile the most. The Chargers are also awfully sensitive about two things, the idea that they're cheap and the idea that they're irrelevant in LA. And I think that hiring Jim Harbaugh addresses both of those emphatically because you're going to have to pay to get him. And I think he would make the Chargers matter a lot more in Los Angeles.

And you guys can speak to this better than I can because you're out there. But I think he would make the Chargers matter a lot more in Los Angeles than they do right now. So I think the Raiders will be in the mix. I think the Falcons will be in the mix. You know, I know he'd touched base with the Panthers last year, so I guess he couldn't rule that out. I'm not sure they go that way.

But my guess would be the Chargers will be where he lands. I have a strongly held view on this view that he wears people out because my view is if you are wearing people out because you are working like a fiend and pushing everybody else to work like a fiend and pushing everybody else to be their best, then you know what? Wearing people out can be a good thing. And by the way, in related news, Al told me I often wore him out. Which I think is amazing.

The fact that you could wear out somebody like Al, which is kind of insane. All right. So does that mean that you were there with Al and Jim, right? When they were together?

Yes. Jim was there for, you know, 2002, 2003. And then he, and I loved working with him. He was a phenomenal teammate. He was terrific in every regard within our organization, not just in a coaching role, but in a communicative collaborative role.

I loved everything about him. You know, I've heard things about those days, like you guys had a young scout, Ed Dodds, who's up for the Raider job now. And Ed is as good an evaluator as there is.

And that was, that'd be one, like I would pay attention to. Ed really interviewed well. Interesting pairing.

Yeah. Ed interviewed really well with the Raiders three years ago, or two years ago. And he didn't get the job because, you know, Mark wanted to tie the head coach to the general manager and pick the Josh McDaniels, Dave Ziegler pairing, but they really liked Ed Dodds. And Ed at the time was tied to Jim Harbaugh. And the two of them worked together all those years ago, Amy, in Oakland. And I've been told that because of that, they've got a really good rapport. And so, you know, if the Raiders were to hire Ed Dodds as their general manager, that could be a way to maybe try to lure Jim Harbaugh away from Michigan, away from the Chargers, away from everybody else.

I'd be so curious. Is he going to shop for the groceries and cook too, like the tuna? Or what's going to happen with Harbaugh? We'll wait and see where he lands. Could we talk playoffs really quickly?

What are the games that appeal to you the most? Well, obviously the Detroit, LA storyline is unbelievable. You know, it's Matthew Stafford getting back, getting, getting to go back into Ford Field. And like how beloved he is in Detroit. I have a lot of family from Detroit that I would say very few people in Detroit hold anything that happened three years ago against Matthew Stafford.

He's still wildly popular there. So him going back in there and, and, and, and getting to play against the Lions, Jared Goff getting to play against Sean McVay. That to me is the juiciest one. I'm really interested in the game that probably nobody's interested in, which is Houston, Cleveland. I love that game because I think what Kevin Stefanski and that staff has done is spectacular to win with four different quarterbacks to win with their fourth and fifth offensive tackles in a day and age when, I mean, people can't find a sixth offensive lineman for their roster to win with their fourth and fifth safeties. A couple of weeks ago, they won a game with Amari Cooper down.

Like they just, I mean, over and over and over again, I've answered every question. And so now they're going into Houston and on the other side, you got this Texans team where, I mean, I can't remember guys. Can you remember a time when people were so completely down and franchise was as dead as the Texans were a year ago to now? Like, I don't know that there are five teams you'd rather be, but like, like five, five situations you'd rather be in than the Texan situation over the next 10 years with D'Amico Ryans and CJ Stroud, you know? So we get like these two kinds of converging these two new, new entities, you know, for the playoffs converging.

I'm really, really excited for that one. Cause I think, you know, we'll get to see CJ Stroud on that stage and they've been really entertaining to watch. And then the whole storyline of the Browns, I think is fascinating.

So those are the two. And then I think, you know, you have, you know, the, the, the Ravens and the Niners as the clear cut one seeds in their conferences. And you know, like, I think there's pressure on both teams to win.

And, you know, man, like, wouldn't that be cool to see those two teams going head to head in Vegas and in four and a half weeks. And you know, maybe the Harbaugh family has another, another nice night coming. Two questions for you about the chiefs. One is, do you expect to see more of the chiefs we have come to expect over the last several years when the playoffs start? And two, do you give any credence to the gentle, gentle flow of some rumors about Andy Reed again, considering that this may be his last season?

So on the, on the first one, this chief's team reminds me a little bit of a team. I covered the 2006 Patriots where, and Susie, you may remember this. They let David Givens go in free agency. They traded Dion branch before the season and they'd invested in their offensive line and defense, but that was Brady's seventh year.

And it was just sort of like, Tom, go figure it out. And it wound up costing them in the playoffs. And their reaction the next year was to go get Randy Moss, Westwell, or Dante Stallworth and go undefeated. I sort of feel like that's what's happened with the chiefs where it's like you traded Tyree kill and now Travis Kelce has gotten old. And I don't think Travis Kelce is the same player he he's been. And so, you know, now they're sort of in this Patrick go figure it out situation with Patrick, like Tom and his seventh year.

And is it going to be enough? And I think that's sort of where they are going into the playoffs. I think, you know, if they aren't able to win, it could lead to them getting really aggressive the way those Patriots did after the oh six season. And I think a lot of it's going to come down to, are they willing to adjust their formula? And I think you saw them do this subtly towards the end of the year where they started to rely on Isaiah Pacheco a little bit more and lean on their defense a little bit more. So I think as far as the here and now goes, it's really about can they reconfigure their formula or not? And when it gets hot, you know, like when it's really, you know, when you're down or where things are tight in a playoff game, can you lean on a different formula? You know, that's number one. And then as far as the long term part of it, I think how the playoffs go is going to affect whether or not they get really, really aggressive in the off season and putting skill talent around Patrick Mahomes because there is talent on that roster.

It's still a really good roster, you know, but as far as the skill player thing goes, they've sort of made the conscious decision. We're going to let Patrick figure this out. Albert, you are a wealth of information. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm sorry we kept you so long, but there was just, I keep thinking of new things to add.

We could do this all day. And Albert, I just want to tell you that for me, at least this was way more fun than when you were asking me questions in the lobby outside owner's meetings. Well, I missed those days, Amy. That seems like a long time ago. It was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We had some good, like Suzy, I'm not kidding when I say this, I did learn a lot about the league from Amy because I actually was young then. And as opposed to now, you're younger than both of us. So, you know, that's an STF. I'm sorry, but do you remember that scene in the movie, Harry Met Sally, where the woman says, I'll have what she's having. When I look at Albert, I think I'll have what he's having. Except for that big shoe in the background, right? I think my background is tremendous. Remind me of the time, next time I see you, that Jim Trestle, when I was covering him for ABC, like that, we were cousins because he's very into genealogy. He's related to a lot of shoestors.

Oh, is he? He took me in the back, like sounds dirty, it's not. He's like, you know, I think we're related. And he takes me back in his office and he gets out this giant, he looks horrified. I do.

I got a lot of weird stories. And he takes out this book of genealogy. And it's like, he's like, you know, I knew it, I knew it. I've watched you. I think we're related.

And he shows me this line of shoestors that are related to the Trestles. That's amazing. He's an incredible person. I took coaching football with him when I was in college. I learned so much in that class. I still have the binder actually right up here. Hang on.

Look, he's just moving. So you now see all the Ohio State stuff. This is a 23 year old, 22 year old binder with all my notes from my coaching football class. And you know, when my, so this is, this is a, this'll, this will resonate with you, Susie. Cause you got to know him a little bit. John Cooper was the coach my first three years. And when John Cooper was the coach, I had friends who took the coaching football class. And they said that he showed up for one class and the rest was taught by a graduate assistant, right? I took the coaching football class my senior year, which was Trestles first year. He sat in, he was in every class. He taught a bunch of them. And then the other ones were taught by his position coaches. And while his position coaches taught, he would sit in the front row and take notes. He's a good guy. And by the way, kids, that's who he is, right? He was a good, good old football coach. He was such a pleasure to work with.

I had so many games and he was, he was kind of great, but don't tell Rich I said that. And do you realize that kids that are listening to this are like, wait, you what? You took notes with a pen?

Wait, and a notebook? We did. This is, this is the other thing, you know, what his, his, his famous saying from that class, like if there was one thing he'd want you to take from that class and this'll, you know, make like this, this, this, this will make, you know, all the analytics people throw up in their mouths, right? He, his famous saying was end every series with a kick. Oh, I get that. End every series with a kick, whether it's a field goal or a punt, end every series with a kick.

Because then it would not be a turnover. Right. Fascinating. Albert, you're the greatest.

Thank you so much. And we really appreciate it. I didn't want against the bad guys too, by the record, but for the record. Well, you know, all right, kids. All right, kids.

Hey, Albert, it's been great. Hey, I mean, come on. I got to go home. You know what I mean?

Like you and I have this relationship like this, but I got to go live with the other guy. So we'll leave it at that. Albert, you're the best Albert. Looking forward to seeing you here in person. Take care.

He's just the very greatest. Um, I think playoffs wise, we're both interested in the same game. We're both interested in the chiefs and the dolphins. I'm interested in every single game. And I am interested in that game, Susie, for a lot of reasons, but I sort of feel like standing United with Al Michaels. And maybe I won't subscribe just in solidarity with Al, but it's going to be a great game.

Albert Breer mentioned Houston, Cleveland. That's going to be a great way. I can't wait for them all.

I actually, and we talked about this last week at length. I look forward to watching CJ Stroud now. I just look forward to seeing him advance and I can't help it. But D'Amico Ryan's is maybe the most likable coach in the national football league. And as we started the show talking about coaches that players want to play for, and those that they do not, I think it's really, really well done to, as I pat myself on the back to close by saying, there's no doubt that D'Amico is the coach that all of his players want to play for. You wrapped that around exquisitely. Oh God, the big bucks. They don't pay me to do that.

Guys. Thank you so much for taking in this edition of what the football again, many things to Albert Breer, Amy, I love you. And we'll see all of you on the other side of this weekend's playoff games.

Can't wait. How wrestling really works and how you get the ratings. Eric Bischoff and Conrad Thompson explain on 83 weeks. I mean, I dig Jay Uso because he's born out of great storytelling and he lived up to the opportunity and exceeded the LA night. He's way up on my list because here's a guy that's been around for almost ever should have probably quit a half a dozen times. And he just forced his way into their life. And now he's making money hand over fist. That is a story I love 83 weeks on YouTube or wherever you listen.