What the Football with Suzy Shuster and Amy Trask: 12 with Peter King

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Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. We tape this every Tuesday. As you all know, Frank Reich released from the Carolina Panthers, fancy way of saying fired by David Tepper on Monday. Amy Trask, another firing. Obviously, two weeks ago, we had Josh McDaniel's and now Frank Reich. And if I were to ask you over under, how many more do you think we'll have this season?

What would you give me? Wait, no, let me set the over under. Should I do that or do you want to just speculate? No, go. Okay, so two have already been terminated. I love that. We have relieved this coach of his duties. Apparently, that's French for we fired him. Yeah.

All right, two are ready. Will there be more than five? Do you think?

Yes. Interesting. And it is interesting only in that I feel like there's such a lack of patience right now with owners, specifically newer owners. And these coaches, I mean, let's face it, Jim Ritchie has been around since the dawn of time. So I guess that wouldn't count for Frank Reich last year.

But I just feel like there's so many people on the seat right now. And I hope to have a chance to talk about this with Peter, even if briefly, my theory has been that that is in part the result of the most recent CBA. And I'm not talking simply about the amendments and the modifications in the extension, but the substantive new CBA. Teams are now constrained by the cap from making certain changes they want to make at the player level because cutting players can have just extremely significant cap consequences. There are no cap consequences when you cut a coach.

Financial consequences, yes. But I've always posited that an owner who wants to make a change and David Tepper likes to make changes. If he can't make the changes at the player level, well, you turn to the coach level and make it there. So maybe we'll get a chance to talk about that with Peter. And Peter King will join us shortly the perfect person to pick this apart.

Amy, I want to give you some numbers because I think they're kind of fascinating. This is from the Charlotte Observer. Since David Tepper bought the team, and of course he owns the Charlotte FC as well, he has now fired four head coaches in the past 18 months between the two teams. Even further, since 2018 when he bought the team, he's had six head coaches, including interims, six head coaches, six in six years. Again, for a guy who made all this money waiting for distressed assets to rebound, there's no patience.

But those aren't independently related. The fact that he made the money that you referenced, the fact that he paid roughly 2 billion for this team, relate to his ability to terminate coaches. Look, it has been reported that Matt Ruhl was owed roughly 40 million when he was fired. It's been reported that Frank Reich is owed roughly 30 million. Let's say those numbers are even remotely accurate, and they probably are generally accurate. That's a lot of money, absolutely unequivocally a lot of money.

But now look at it on a relative basis. I'm not going to do the math while we sit here on this podcast because undoubtedly I would do it wrong. And you can count on your fingers.

Right. And I don't have enough fingers to count a billion. There's nine zeros in a billion. What percentage of 11 billion is 30 million?

What percentage of 2 billion is 30 million? Now look, 30 million is a lot of money, a lot of money, a lot of money. But when you are constrained from making some other changes, and you believe that this is going to be the answer, when you are worth the amount of money some of these new team owners are worth, you can make these changes. You know, another thing that pointed out to me or that stuck out in my head was per ESPN stats and info since the merger in 1970, because of course Reich is the first NFL head coach since the merger to be fired in back-to-back seasons. And that's not something, that's not a moniker I think he's going to be proud of.

That's not a t-shirt you want made up. But there have been only six NFL coaches who didn't finish their first season with their team, three in the last three seasons. And that's the part that I really want to talk about. We've got Frank, we've got Urban Meyer and Nathaniel Hackett last year with the Broncos. I wonder if we're seeing a trend of these owners being impatient, not letting a team percolate with a coach.

Well, it also goes to the money point. In the case of the Broncos with Nathaniel Hackett, a new ownership group that paid a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of money for that team. With respect to David Tepper, relatively new owner, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of money for that team.

What's interesting is that's not the background from which Tepper comes. He comes from the Steelers that are known for having among, if not the fewest head coaches over a period of time. But I don't think those two issues are unrelated, that you have people that are spending a lot of money on the team and thus may have less patience or stated differently, more resources to be able to fire a head coach. Suzy, during my years in the league, the gap between the highest revenue club and the lowest revenue club was over a quarter of a billion dollars annually.

Now look, I get it. Every single team makes a lot of money. The revenues to every single team are very, very, very substantial. But when you have a revenue gap between high revenue clubs and low revenue clubs that, as noted during my years, was over a quarter of a billion a year, some teams are more able to fire head coaches than others. But this seems, even with that, and again, sometimes I struggle to understand the numbers, which makes you the perfect person for me to be sitting next to, I have trouble absorbing this, the enormity of these numbers. And we were talking earlier, I was just saying, even with Jimbo Fisher, with Texas A&M, with the amount of money that he's owned in the 70 millions. And there's just such an egregious amount of money, Amy.

I guess I don't understand, and that's why I'd love you to explain, how does this work financially? I mean, you just threw out some stuff. And that's what I call your number stuff. I don't get it. I don't get it. I mean, how does this make sense? And who the hell would want to walk in and take a job like this when there's so little security?

Well, I'll tell you who would. But let me let you finish because I just interrupted you because you got me all excited. You got me all excited. There's 32 of these jobs. 32. And there's a lot more than 32 people who want these jobs. Supply and demand. There's always going to be more demand for these jobs than there is supply. Now, supply and demand works both ways. If you are the hottest coaching commodity, if you have your choice of jobs, supply and demand will work differently. Because if there are a number of teams looking for coaches after this season, or even before the end of the season, you can be picky and you can rule out teams you want. But if you are not in demand, you're going to take a job. There are 32 of these jobs. That's not a lot.

There's more people that want them. And by the way, someone is always going to think, well, I know, I know, but I can handle this. I know, I know he fired Frank. I know, I know he fired Matt.

I'm going to get this right. There's a lot of confidence in the coaching world. No kidding.

That's part of the, I think part of the job requirement when they put it out there. On Tuesday, David Tepper did speak to the media about firing his head coach. Here's what he had to say. I do have patience. I'm just not, my reputation away from this game is one for extreme patience. You know, there's no reason why that doesn't, you know, come here too.

It does. Now, that patience comes with good performance and things that you want to see progress be made on different aspects. And as, you know, as I said, you know, I would like to have somebody here for 20, 30 years. I'd like to have somebody that would say eulogy at my funeral in 30 years. Okay. Maybe it's 40 years, I hope, but that's what I'd like to have. Yeah. I don't think he's going to be having any of his recent head coaches there at the end of the run.

Well, you know, if you're getting 30, $40 million for not working, maybe it would go. No joke. But I have to say, like you brought it up earlier as a former owner of the Steelers and a partial owner from a guy who was born and bred in Pittsburgh. He's talking about having patience, but I mean, I just thought that quote was so bizarre. How do you, yes, your reputation is about, and you know more about hedge funds than I do because of Rob, but it just seems to me that we heard him swearing coming out of the locker room, having a fit. And yes, again, you're used to having an owner with a big personality.

What's your perspective on this? I'm laughing when people made so much of him dropping an F bomb coming out of the locker room. If they could have heard Al and I sitting together watching games, they would have been stunned. You know, the F bomb is like the word the in football. At least it was where I worked.

You said that work, it was in every sentence and it was used like the word the. So I was not put off by his swearing. But yes, I did work for a team owner who went through quite a few head coaches. And you know, one head coach that Al fired, see, I say it fired, not relieved of his duties, said something really, really wise to me.

It was Joe Bugle, a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. And it was the day that Al was going to be firing him. And I talked to Joe ahead of time and told him how sorry I was and that I really just I felt terribly and I wanted Joe to succeed and I was sorry that this was happening. And Joe looked at me and said, Al's doing the right thing, Amy. He said, I'm a really, really, really good assistant coach.

I am not a good head coach. And that was from Joe on the day that Al fired him, which Al did later in the day after that conversation. My point being, not all good assistants make good head coaches.

And Joe was wise enough to realize that. And there's so many other names that are going to pop up, too. And I think about what I guess my head is going from assistants to coaching trees. We're talking about a lot of the Belichick coaching tree guys who have not had that much success.

Let's face it, right. But we're talking about the openings that are going to make themselves apparent after the season. And, you know, people are loving the gambling numbers about how many coaches, how many vacancies are they going to be? Will it be Belichick?

Clearly. Ron Rivera? Will it be Brandon Staley? Will it be Iberfluss? Will it be Rabel?

Bolzerdable? That sounds like that sounds like we could have a poem after this, actually. You know, we should write one.

Yeah. You know what? After all the firings, I will write a poem. I just gave you a good idea.

You did. You just gave me a great idea. And you're right. You know, we talked about how many might be gone. It may be a lot of coaches gone. And then the best candidates will have the ability to be picky and choosy.

Whereas those who aren't getting a lot of interest are going to take one if it's offered to them. Would you want the job with David Tepper and a five foot ten rookie quarterback coming off of his first season where he is having a really rough time? Would you want that to be your position? Tell me what my other options are. Tell me.

And look, I'm not trying to be coy. I'm telling you what my analysis would be. If I wanted to be a head coach, if I were working my way up through the coaching pipeline and I wanted to be a head coach, if that was my only opportunity, yeah, I would take it. See, I'd sit there thinking this coach, I'd say this owner is nuts.

And I'm starting to jump in, then you go. But if I am a coach out there and I'm looking for my first opportunity or maybe my sixth or seventh, unless I'm Bill Belichick and I'm thinking to myself, I can fix this, but I don't, that's the thing. We're looking at two different things here.

Sorry. This is how my brain's working today. Maybe if it's my first job, I'm thinking no way in hell, because I'm not going to follow these two guys at the door. Maybe if I'm Belichick or Rivera, I'm thinking, God, I've got like decades of experience behind me and I can fix this. But part of me is thinking, I'm not sure that this five foot 10 quarterback is who I want to be attached to.

I think all of the points you raised are good ones. Do you have another opportunity? Do you want to be a head coach right now? If you are a hot, hot assistant, or you think you are, but you only have one opportunity, do you take that opportunity now or do you wait?

Because you don't know when the next opportunity will come along. What do you build into your deal with him? If he wants you as the head coach and you're a little bit skeptical or a lot skeptical, do you build in full roster control?

Do you build in any number of guard rails that you think can help you succeed? At the end of the day, I simply believe that the supply of jobs is far less than the demand. Certainly, if you have your option to go to any number of spots, that may be the last on your list. But if you don't have another choice and you want to be a head coach and you want to be a head coach now, and that's your one opportunity, I think you're taking it. Here's what's going to be fascinating. And Tepper hasn't said that he's going to stick with his GM either. What's going to be fascinating is who takes this job? Is it going to be somebody who insists on shopping for the groceries and cooking? Will it be somebody who says like, if you want me to come here and fix this, I want it all.

Because you say that to a billionaire like Tepper, that type tends to be pretty controlling because they always think that they're the smartest person in the room. And then remember, and by the way, nice Bill Parcells reference with the groceries. Thank you. Remember also, that money's yours if you're fired. And so if you're fired, if you're Matt Ruhl, if you're Frank Reich, if you're anyone who's fired this year, if you decide, you know, I'm done working, I'm going to the beach, that money's pouring in. Now, if you get another job, there are offset provisions.

And we've talked about that on past podcasts, we won't go into hanky panky, although there's hanky panky. But, you know, Suze, it's a lot of money you're earning. Even if you're not working anymore, and you're not earning it, you've earned it because you're getting it. That made no sense.

But you know what I'm saying? Would you want to be somebody taking in up to 30 million a year and have your moniker or your sweatshirt say, I got fired because I stunk at my job, but I made a ton of money? Well, what if your shirt said instead, I got fired because the owner of the business fired me without giving me the patience he indicated he would initially to build this and repair this? I mean, you can write whatever you want on the shirt, you can put your narrative however you want.

I got fired because the owner was impatient, even though he promised me patience. Also, how much is it going to piss off David Tepper to know that Frank Reich is sitting there, basically fanning himself with the money that he made, flushing it down the toilet? Or does he not care at all because he has so much money? Well, I don't know if he cares or not. But I am very, very confident he factored that into his decision. You don't fire someone to whom you owe that amount of money without at least thinking, how am I going to feel about paying him that amount of money? You got to weigh that into your decision. If he had all that money, he could spend it on game time, Amy. I'm just saying he could spend it on game time. Because before we get to Peter King, I want to tell you about game time.

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That's audible.com or text EISEN to 500-500 to try Audible free for 30 days. And Peter King has promised joins us here on What the Football. Peter, Amy and I are just busy talking about the news out of Carolina. What are your thoughts on the firing? Oh, yeah, I'm not too impressed with David Tepper. You know, he's owned the team for five years now. And in the last 48 months, he's had three head coaches and now three interim coaches. And if that weren't bad enough, he owns the pro soccer team in Charlotte, and he's fired the coach each of the first two years. I believe there's a pattern developing. And I mean, truly, what's crazy about this, absolutely crazy, is that David Tepper for nine years prior to buying the Panthers owned 5% of the Pittsburgh Steelers. He was a huge Steeler fan, and probably still is, but he's a huge Steeler fan. Are you telling me that the franchise that has had three coaches in 50 years, that something didn't rub off on him? I think it's insane what he's doing. I just do. I think he's making some huge mistakes. And look, maybe Frank Reich is not the guy.

OK, that's fine. OK, but how do you go from falling in love with a guy and then whacking them 10 months later? Maybe you shouldn't have fallen in love with him then. That's the thing. Same thing with Matt Ruhl. I mean, the Matt Ruhl thing is really crazy, because not only did he pay him a ridiculous amount of money to get out of Baylor, but he was sitting in Matt Ruhl's driveway with his PR guy and his GM at like 10 o'clock at night when they got home from a vacation, because he was determined to get Matt Ruhl before the Giants and anybody else could get in the Derby. So he's a little bit, I don't know, I just think he's a little bit overboard.

And I never thought we would see a Steinbrenner type guy in the NFL, but this guy is George Steinbrenner without the wins. Peter, is it your sense or understanding that he is listening perhaps to the wrong people, that he has the wrong people in his ear, or that he's not listening to anyone, that he's not listening to the right people? Is he getting any input or is he making these decisions absolutely on his own?

You know, Amy, I really don't know who his kitchen cabinet is, if he's got one. I think that he really doesn't have that kind of advisory board with him. I think he feels like he wants to do something and he does it. He owns the team.

And he's got some really smart people in that organization. And to me, I just think, and look, you know, you were in this game for a long time and you know that sometimes you were going to have really bad days and you're going to have bad years. But if you trust the people who you hire to do the job, you've got to, you know, look, I was telling somebody today, you know, how do you think Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones felt in 1989 when he went one in 15? You think Jerry was all confident and happy and gleeful and thinking that he had the right guy in Jimmy Johnson? Maybe he was saying that publicly, but you can't tell me he wasn't questioning himself after the great Jimmy Johnson goes one in 15 his first year. And, you know, if you pick a head coach, you better know that there are going to be lean days or else you wouldn't be having to hire a new head coach. So that's my problem right now with David Tepper.

See, Peter, I was just thinking that for a guy who made his billions being patient on distressed assets, right, and waiting for them to rebound, he's doing the counter opposite. And in a way, it makes me wonder, bring up Jerry, if we're setting up kind of like a showdown of the old owners versus the new owners. I don't know that there is a real trend to see here necessarily like, okay, well, all right, last year, the Denver Broncos, the Walton Penner group comes in, they own the team, and it's an absolute debacle. And they think that basically they hired a coach, Nathaniel Hackett, who was ill suited to be a head coach in the NFL.

They made that decision. And so they went out and fired him and hired Sean Payton. There's a reason why you pay Sean Payton $19 or $20 million a year. And the reason is because he's got a resume where he succeeded.

And his team gives up 70 points in the third game. And I asked a few questions early in the season. How's it going?

Oh, it's fine. It'll take a while. Sean's going to have to make a couple of moves probably, and then whatever. And so the moves he made, the two moves he made is he basically fired two veteran defensive players who weren't giving him what he wanted.

And so after he did that, all of a sudden, morale improved seemingly, and things started to go on the up and up. Here's my problem really. My biggest problem with Carolina is that I think, look, I've covered the league for a long time. And I think the biggest mistake that teams make is being impatient with young quarterbacks.

And you've already heard the B word, bust, thrown around with Bryce Young. Well, I've watched a lot of Carolina this year. Most of the weeks, I have red zone on. So I'm watching 30 of their offensive snaps probably every week.

And I've watched a couple of their games in full. And what's happened to him happened with Daniel Jones this year. How can you tell whether a guy is going to play well or be any good when he never, ever, ever has time to throw or to make a good decision?

Because he is always under the gun. I'm not sitting here and saying, well, maybe he will be better than CJ Stroud. I doubt he will be because CJ Stroud, a year from now, we might be talking about him in the Mahomes, Jalen Hurts, Burrow category.

So I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is, I have no idea how you judge a quarterback, no matter whether he's 5'5 or 7'5. I don't know how you judge a quarterback based on the lack of protection that Bryce Young has had.

I will revert to my law school education and say, your honor, let us submit as exhibit A Jim Plunkett. Yeah, that's a really good point. And Jim Plunkett, when he finally had a good supporting cast around him, was significantly better and was playing in the Super Bowl.

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Savings accounts by Goldman Sachs Bank USA member FDIC terms apply. So if you are a name out there like let's throw out Ben Johnson and say that David Tepper says, do you want to come here and coach Carolina? Do you want to coach my 5 foot 10 quarterback coming off of his rookie season? Do you take the job?

It depends on what my options are. You know, I've only talked to Ben Johnson once in my life. I don't think of him as a climber. You know what I mean? I don't think of him as a guy who on his way home from practice every night calls his friends in the business say, hey, if I get interviewed at the end of the year, will you come with me? And we, you know, I'm going to build a staff.

I'm going to do this. Ben Johnson is a football coach. And I think if he has other opportunities, I would think those other opportunities would be more attractive. Maybe it'll come down to money.

Maybe it won't. But I think you saw last year that Ben Johnson withdrew from the Carolina coaching search. I don't know why he did that, but he did.

And so when he withdrew your eyebrows raise a little bit and you just wonder, why did he do that? I mean, maybe he would have gotten that job. Well, maybe he didn't want that job.

So I don't know. But if that's the only job opportunity he has, and because you don't stay the hot coordinator forever, you just don't. So if he only has one opportunity, maybe take it. But I would be, if I worked in this business, I would view that job right now anyway as quicksand. Well, and you raise a great point, Peter, which is what are your other options? At the end of the day, there's only 32 of these jobs, and there are more than 32 people who want them. So it's a supply and demand issue.

And you know, look, Peter, you hit on a number of points that had me smiling ear to ear. We're talking about Tepper. You referenced the Penner Group. And of course, there's new ownership in Washington. And these ownership groups are spending billions of dollars on these teams. And I'll say this with a smile on my face. I know you know this.

I know Susie knows this. But there are nine zeros in a billion. That's a lot of money. And under the new collective bargaining agreement, which isn't so new anymore, you can't sometimes make wholesale changes at players. So I think and wonder if you think this is why some of the owners are making quick changes at Coach, because they are constrained by the CBA by making changes at players. Well, that could be Amy.

But the way I look at this is, you know, there aren't a lot of people who are pure gold out there. Okay. And, you know, I don't know if, for instance, Tepper might say, let's offer next year's one to Tennessee for Mike Vrabel. I like him. He projects the image of a coach.

And he blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, I have no idea. I'm just simply raising that as a possibility. There aren't a lot of people right now who are the miracle workers at Head Coach. Maybe McVeigh, certainly Andy Reid, but Andy Reid's not leaving Patrick Mahomes. But I guess I look at it and think to myself, if I wanted to hire a good head coach right now, the one thing I would do is whether it be with a search firm or whether it's somebody I really, really trust, I want you to look everywhere. I want you to look under every rock. If you tell me right now that I need to interview, no matter what his record has been, that I need to interview Matt Campbell at Iowa State.

Okay. He's on the list. I'm going to spend the day with Matt Campbell. I want to get to know Matt Campbell.

And then, you know, if he gets down the road, then he gets down the road with us. But whoever it is, I want college coaches. I might want a retired coach. I won't dismiss Bill Belichick out of hand if he's on the market, but I'm not really looking for a two-year window for a guy who I don't know how long he's going I don't know how long he's going to be around, but probably not longer than say three years.

So I want to find a quality field of candidates. I don't want to fixate. He fixated on Matt Ruhl. I, you know, and I'm not blaming Matt Ruhl. He's a good football coach. I don't know how the Frank Wright thing happened, but if you have so little belief in a coach and that you'd fire him after 10 months on a five-year contract, you know, get out of here. Really.

It's a joke. I know we don't have much time with you, but let's talk about the other names you're hearing floating around there out there for coaches that'll be available next year. Who are the big names? Well, I would think if Bill Belichick and Robert Kraft part ways, which I think is probably likely I think people will be interested in talking to him. If I were Washington, I definitely want to talk to him. If I were Dean Spanos with the Chargers, if they make a change, I'd want to talk to him. But I think I don't mean that, you know, you round up the usual suspects, but somebody should interview Brian Flores. He's done a good job in Minnesota. You have to ask Brian Flores if he might be able to be a softer version of himself so that in every interview that his star quarterback does after he left, he very quietly and sort of conservatively throws darts at him.

But he seems like a really good smart guy. Then I think you have to look at the Shanahan-McVeigh-LaFleur retreat because there have been some really good success stories that have come out of there with a modern offense. Mike McDaniel has got the most interesting offense in the NFL. So interesting, in fact, that I had a good conversation with him in Germany when I was covering the Dolphins game over there. Mike McDaniel is not one of these guys who shuts himself up in his office and watches everybody else's tape.

He has enough confidence in his ability that he invents stuff because he's confident that he knows how to do it and how to get his guys open and free. So I want somebody as my coach who I can trust is going to be on the cutting edge of schemes and is going to be able to control his team. What about Rich's coach, Jim Harbaugh? What about him? I mean, Suzy, I'm not the biggest Harbaugh guy. He left a trail in San Francisco. Whatever they might say now, I know they were glad that he left. He's hard to work with.

But he's got a success story almost everywhere he goes. So I don't dismiss him, but I do think that he's definitely an acquired taste and you better have patience and you better be willing to grit your teeth sometimes and walk away. Peter, thanks again for your time. As always, we love having you on What the Football. Peter, thank you. You're welcome, guys. Great to be on with you. Thank you for joining us.

Thanks very much, Peter. One name that he didn't mention, Amy, was John Gruden's name. And his name has been back in the media recently as connected to Indiana University. And I know you've got some strong feelings on that.

I do. But I will note with respect to the dangling of his name in the Indiana University context, it has now been reported by some that was simply an effort by those in his circle to get his name back into the mix and that it really isn't something being considered by the university. And I think that's a good thing. There were emails that were leaked in association with that which was going on between the commanders and the league. And a number of those emails were John Gruden's emails to Bruce Allen and to others.

And I think the focus has become entirely misplaced. The focus is on why were they leaked and who leaked them. When the focus should be on what was in those emails, those emails contained horrific, racist, homophobic, misogynistic statements. And you don't put something like that in an email if those aren't your beliefs.

And you don't send those emails to someone unless you know that person either agrees with you or at a minimum is not going to be bothered by you sending them. So when I read that his name was floated in association with Indiana, my immediate thought was, whoa, whoa, whoa, you do not bring someone in to a university setting in particular that has espoused those racist and homophobic and misogynistic views. I think that's the case with an NFL team as well. I thought it was wrong for the Saints to bring him in as a consultant, but I was glad that Peter didn't mention John's name.

And I don't think that the focus should be on who leaked the emails as much as what was in the emails. Yeah. I think it sounds to me, if I were just surmised, like you said, it sounds like a fishing expedition, but you said something so interesting to me earlier about what parent would want to send their kid to play for a coach with this kind of misogynistic background. And the sad thing is my first reaction is the ones that want to win sometimes, you know, sometimes people are willing to overlook these things for their kid's future or for winning or for tradition or for a program.

And it's kind of sick and twisted. Well, you're a hundred percent right. But I misinterpreted the look on your face then, because when I said, if I'm a parent of a student, I do not want someone who's espoused those views coaching or interacting with or acting as a leader for my child. And when we had that discussion, I thought the point you were making is there's a lot of parents who may agree with the views he shared, but you're right also that there are other parents who may not agree with him who are going to say, but if we can win, we can win, we can win.

But there may also, not may, there are people in the world who agree with the horrific comments he included in those emails. Amy, you worked with him in your first, in his first stint with the Raiders. What was that like? I'm smiling and, and, and about to giggle because, you know, I'm, I'm thinking of reverting to law school, Amy, and, and being podcasting podcasting. You know, she keeps telling me, Amy, you know, you're not making a presentation to a bank. You're not in court, you know, just let it rip.

So I will. Of all the coaches in the almost 30 years I was at the Raiders, John was the only coach who made it very clear that he didn't want to interact with me. And, you know, I didn't have to interact with him to do my job. My only point in sharing that was he, I don't even, and I'm not trying to sugarcoat this. I just don't know exactly how to express what I'm trying to express. John was just a very different coach than any of the other coaches in, in the years I was there. But how did he, how did he make it clear to you? And it doesn't have to be, he walked up to you and put a sign on the wall that said, I don't want to deal with you.

But how do you figure that? And it wasn't unique to me. I was not the only one. John wanted to interact only with Bruce. Bruce wanted to be the intermediary between John and Al.

So let me make clear, I'm not making this personal. This was me. It was the CFO. It was the general counsel. It wasn't uniquely that he refused to deal with me.

He didn't want to interact with any of us. He wanted to interact with Bruce and Bruce wanted to be the intermediary between John and Al. It was a very, it's, it's not the way I believe a business should run. I believe the four most important words in business. And I know I've said them before, and I'm going to keep saying them, communicate, cooperate, collaborate, coordinate.

And that's not the leadership style he or Bruce showed. So what was your reaction when you saw the content of those emails? Were you at all surprised?

No. What were your thoughts when you saw them? Well, they're horrific. I wasn't surprised, but I wasn't surprised that he sent them.

I wasn't, I also wasn't surprised to whom he addressed them. Again, you don't send emails like that. If you're not comfortable interacting with the person to whom you're sending them as to topics like that.

I'm just curious. By the way, I'll share with you something I've never shared with anyone else. I bet if you went through that whole treasure trove of emails, there's something there about me too. A good size complaint.

Maybe. What was Al's reaction when he was being so strange with you? Because as we all know, you were Al's conciliary.

Well, again, I want to make clear, it wasn't just with me. He wouldn't interact with our CFO, certainly with our general counsel. Al saw all this, but Al was a lot more patient of different personality styles than many people would believe he would be. John was a good coach. John was good at X's and O's. He's not a personnel guy.

He's not a talent evaluator, but he was good at X's and O's. But ultimately, Al decided to trade him. So fascinating. See, we started this podcast with patience. We're ending it with patience.

We started with lack thereof, and we end it with a lot of patience. Okay. I brought that full circle. You did. You did. You did that well. You did that very well. That's why they pay me the big bucks, but not the Frank Wright big bucks. Someday, all I want in life is for somebody to pay me just boatloads of money to not be good at something. Well, now that's well put, or to not do anything. Now here's, and I'm going to talk finance a little bit because now we're in my happy spot.

Okay. When a team terminates a coach, that's a fancy way of saying fires. I love when they, you know, we've relieved this coach of his duties. What you're really saying is you fire the coach. You owe him money remaining on the contract unless that coach is hired by someone else, and then there's offset rules. But remember one thing, and we talked about this with Peter, the new owners are paying billions with a B of dollars for these teams. And while 30 million, 40 million is a lot of money in and of itself, think of it on a relative scale. My head is spinning.

That's just too many numbers and too many Bs. Thank you all for taking in this edition of What the Football. We will see you here each and every Tuesday. Thanks for taking it in.

Have a great, great week. Undertaker or Becky Lynch, or I don't care what their birth certificate says. They're going to draw a younger demo because they're fun to watch. And they're great entertainers. 83 weeks on YouTube or wherever you listen.