The Narrow Path 11/11

Music Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for an hour each weekday afternoon. We have an open phone line. It's a live program you can call in and ask questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or Christian beliefs or practices. You can call if you disagree.

On any point, maybe you're a Christian and you have a different viewpoint on something than the host has or maybe you're not a Christian and you just disagree with the whole thing. Feel free to give me a call. I'll be glad to talk to you here. The number is 844-484-5737. Now, we have lines open right now.

That may not be true, let's say, five minutes from now. They may all fill up, but if you want to get through now, this is a good time. 844-484-5737. We have canceled the meeting that we had scheduled for November 28th in Buena Park because it is so close to Thanksgiving. Some of our monthly meetings we sometimes just cancel them if they're just too close to the holiday because we find that attendance suffers. If you are one of our Buena Park attendees, just know that we've changed it.

It should be reflected on the website that we're not having the 28th of November meeting in Buena Park. Of course, it's Veterans Day, so we want to thank all the veterans for the sacrifices they've made, including my dad, Darryl Gregg, who is a veteran also, and still living World War II veteran, 95 years old, as of a week ago. We want to just be thankful for what we've gained, even though we may be on the verge of losing much of it because of the recent election. We'll see. Hopefully, we will not, but we do remember that there were many people who died and many who did not die, but who put out the risk during the various wars to try to help us keep our freedoms, which we have kept. The communists said that we would not lose our freedoms to them in an open conflict, but through interior infiltration. That, of course, is what we have seen happen in our culture, but they haven't beat us completely yet. What the veterans have fought for has not been lost yet.

We hope it shall not be. All right, let's talk to Richard in Seal Beach, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path, Richard.

Thanks for calling. Yes, Steve, I was reading in Jeremiah 47, verse 4. The Philistines were actually Greeks from an island right off of Greece.

They were constantly attacking the Jews, and so my question is, why would the New Testament be written in Greece if they would hate the Philistines? And also, there's never really been a nation called Palestine or Philistines, but there's no such thing as a Palestinian. You cannot hear me. I understand you cannot hear me, right?

I need you to... I didn't hear any part of the second question because I was trying to stop you so you could clarify your first question, and then I'll hear your second. What was your first question about the Philistines? I couldn't quite make out your voice.

Your voice is kind of muffled. Okay, Jeremiah 47, verse 4. The Philistines were actually Greeks, and they were constantly attacking Israel, and so my question would be, you think the Jews would hate the Greeks, so why did they write the New Testament in Greece? Well, the Philistines actually came from, I think, the island of Crete, and it may be that Crete had association with Greece in those days.

I don't know if it did or not in those ancient times. Greece, as a civilization, rose much later than the arising of the Philistines. The Philistines were on the coastal regions of Israel before the Exodus, so we're talking about a long time before the rise of the Grecian civilization or Grecian race, but as far as the Jews hating Greeks, let's face it in the Bible, the Jews didn't like Gentiles much at all, but when it comes to modern Jews, I don't know why they should hate people who were not involved in any of these things that the Philistines did. The Philistines have become pretty much extinct as a race in Old Testament times, so it's been a couple thousand years since there's been any Philistines around. To say they are Greeks is not really the same thing. Modern Greeks are not the same as the Philistines, but true, they did come from the same region that the Greeks are. Anyway, why would anyone want to hate people for things their ancestors did?

I can't see any reason for that. I know some people do, but I think most Jews are more reasonable than that. The Egyptians, they were hard on the Jews, but the Jews have had peace treaties with the Egyptians and haven't necessarily hated them.

I don't really see that as a question that I could answer. I don't know why they would hate them because of things that happened thousands of years ago. Why do you think the New Testament was written in Greek? Is this predicted in one book of Daniel, for instance?

No, Daniel didn't... The Bible doesn't actually predict anything about the languages that things will be written in. The reason that the New Testament was written in Greek is because that was the language of the region of the whole Middle East and the whole Mediterranean world.

From the time of Alexander the Great, about 333 BC, Alexander conquered all that region and established Koine Greek as the lingua franca of the entire empire. So by the time that the New Testament writers came along, they were living in a Greek-speaking world, and that's why they would write it in Greek. I don't think there's any special spiritual significance to the language that the Old and the New Testament were written in.

Language is just language. Well, you'd think it would be Latin because the Roman Empire controlled that region. Well, the Roman Empire, the region that was controlled was Greek-speaking. Now, it's true that in Rome and parts of Italy, some of the people spoke Latin because that was the Roman language, but the Romans had to learn Greek just like everybody else did. So Latin was used, I think, in Roman courts and in Roman business or at least governmental situations, but Greek was the language that people on the street spoke. Even if people on the street in Rome could speak Latin, I'm not sure they all did, but if they could, that would not make it really advantageous to write to people throughout the empire that spoke only Greek or at least did not necessarily speak Latin. But again, I don't think there's any spiritual significance in the languages that were used in the writing of Scripture.

Some people think Hebrew, well, that was a really spiritual or holy language, but I don't see the Bible necessarily teaching anything about the value of a particular language. I appreciate your call, though. Let's see, Michael from Northern California.

Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Steve, hello there.

This is Michael here. Yeah. All right. So, yeah, your gentleman was speaking last time. I think that's a reference to the democracy because the Greeks were the ones that created the democracy in Athens in, what was it, 540 D.C. Wait a minute, what was referring to the democracy?

Some prior thing that was said by the earlier caller? Yeah, by your last caller, he was speaking of the piracy of the Roman Empire and the Greeks, and who really owned it was the democracy, and the Greeks came in and conquered the Romans in 280 D.C., and it's always been a Greek democracy as spoken of in Daniel, that the Greeks would rule for so long, and then there would be the kingdom that would be set up forever and ever. It would rule from the clouds.

Man from the clouds would come down. Okay. It's also spoken of in Revelation. Okay. Well, whatever, I don't understand the significance of that, but is that all you had to say, or did you have a question? No, see, what I wanted to bring up was a very vital point here in Revelations that I've come across, and I wanted to know how you felt about these verses 6 through 8 on Revelations chapter 17.

Okay. Well, that's about the great harlot, so what are your thoughts about that? Well, it speaks of a woman, you know, and then it speaks of those that would marvel after it, that they would slay the saints, they would drink, they would be drunk with the blood of the saints and with the mortarings of Jesus. So that sounds a lot like today's new age church that is of the democracy of the Greeks when they went through and conquered the world, and they set up a Bible that was based off democracy rather than what was off the original context.

It's that paleo-Hebrew, it's a paleo-Israel, and it's also the esteem of Israelites. Okay, I just have to say, I can't make any sense of what you're saying, so I'm going to have to move along. But, you know, I wouldn't agree with new age church. The new age movement is quite a deviation from Christianity, but I don't really see that I could slap the new age movement with the guilt of being blood of those saints and martyrs of Jesus. I don't really know any new age churches that have slain martyrs for Christ. What you're saying really doesn't seem to make an awful lot of sense to me, I have to say.

Well, thanks anyway, I appreciate it. Daniel from, wow, Pennsylvania, somewhere in Pennsylvania, the name of the town I can't pronounce. Alquippa? Alquippa? Yeah, Alquippa. Algonquin Native American.

I see. I told your, I'm sorry, your screen, Mike Ditka, Pistol Pete Marovitch, he went to my church, Doc Madich, he threw for the Yankees, Henry Mancini. Oh, hang on, wait, are you familiar with this radio program? I'm sorry?

Are you familiar with this radio program? Sure. Okay, this is a question of a- I know, I know, I was just trying to, well, I went to seminary 50 years ago, and I did not grow up like you, my dad died when I was a year old, I was an addict in high school, and I was super naturally healed.

Okay, but what is your question then? Okay, hold on. Anyway, I didn't get ordained when I came home in the 70s, Steve, because I couldn't quite get into praying to dead people, which the Bible condemns in Deuteronomy for sure, maybe in Leviticus, of trying to even contact a supposed spirit of a dead human being. And the one- Okay, Daniel, okay, go ahead. If we get to a scripture now, go ahead.

Yeah. And the other verse, I can't remember, my eyes are almost gone, so I have to listen to the Bible audio, but what really got me on top of that was in Revelation, it says, and this is what people have come back at me with, and it's so obscure, it says, and the saints brought bowls of prayers to the Lord, and they used that as the prayers of dead, quote, saints, unquote. And I'm sure you know that verse, I can't think what chapter it's in. It's Revelation chapter eight, when the elders brought bowls of incense to offer up to the Lord, and it says the incense they offered was the prayers of the saints. Now apparently your frame of reference is, I imagine, Roman Catholic, is that correct? Eastern Orthodox.

Oh, Eastern Orthodox, okay. So this has to do with praying to saints, at least that is your question has to do with praying to saints. Well, it's like, what is your take on that verse in Revelation that, I mean- My view of it is that it's about to describe a judgment that is coming down on inhabitants of the earth, in my opinion, it happens to be Jerusalem, but regardless of that, that there's a judgment that's being poured out, which will be described as coals of fire from the altar being cast down on the earth. But precipitating this is the offering up of incense from those coals to God, which are the prayers of the saints. Now I think the imagery there is trying to tell us that the reason that this judgment is coming is because it's in response to the prayers of the saints. Now the Roman Catholic Church sometimes indicates that these prayers of the saints are offered to or through the saints, you know, the saints on earth have prayed and they're being offered up through the saints in heaven. I think that's reading too much into the passage, it is probably, one of the elders probably does represent a redeemed person who's offering this, but it's a priestly duty that's being offered up incense like they did in the temple in Jerusalem, but this is in heaven. And the offering up the prayers, I think, are not necessarily prayers that are prayed to dead people, but prayers that are prayed to God. And they're just being conveyed as coming up to God like incense offered on an altar. And because of their prayers, God is vindicating them by pouring out the coals of fire on the earth. And I don't see that as any reference to praying to saints or praying to the dead. So I would agree with you in your concern about that. I don't believe the Bible at all supports the idea of praying to people who have died.

And I don't think that passage would support that. All right, let's talk to Gary from Niguel or Niguel, I'm not sure, California, somewhere in the California. Welcome.

Hey Steve, how are you doing today? Good, thanks. Good. I was wondering if there's a, I guess the word difference or dichotomy between Genesis 127, which is, you know, God made us an image and made male and female. And then in 222, and that was before he was born, and then in 222 says, you know, whatever, he put Adam to sleep and took the rib out and then he became. Is there, am I missing something there or is that, I'll hang up and let you explain it, sir. Okay.

I appreciate your call, Gary. I think perhaps the problem is that you're taking Genesis 2 as if it is chronologically subsequent to Genesis 1. Now if you're reading through a history book, normally you would expect the events of chapter 1 to precede the events recorded in chapter 2, because you're moving forward through history.

This is written a little different than ordinary history. Genesis 1 is simply a summary of the creation of the entire heavens and earth and all life forms in them. In one chapter, going through six days of creation. On the sixth day, it does say that God created man and woman.

And so, and then God sees everything that he made and it's very good. When you get into chapter 2, you see another story of creation that talks about God creating the heavens and the earth and other things, but it focuses on the creation of humans. Now the creation of humans was summarized in Genesis 1.27 as God made male and female. Now in chapter 2, it's like a sidebar talking about that very fact that God made male and female. It's like a focused in account on what happened and how God did that. So in chapter 1, it just mentions that God made male and female. Chapter 2 is like a second account that focuses only on that one thing, the making of male and female. And so it talks about God making man from the dust of the earth and it talks about him taking a rib out and making the woman and so forth.

Now this is not, this is not supposed to replace or be in conflict with or even speak of things subsequent to the creation of man and woman in chapter 1. It's simply going over that verse and expanding on that verse. Just like in, we used to have things called magazines before there was the internet. People used to get magazines, they were like made up of pages and stuff and they had stories in them. And sometimes the story in a magazine would be several pages long, but on one page they'd have a box with an insert, we called it a sidebar, that would give more details about one little element in the whole story.

So the story that's several pages long might cover a lot of points, but it might say something at one point that the magazine feels there should be more information given on that, so they have a separate box with further information about that one point. And that's what Genesis 2 is, it's a sidebar. It's basically, we've already read that God created male and female, but we've been given no detail about how that happened. And so having summarized the whole story of creation in chapter 1, he goes back to that one event, the creation of man and woman, and he details it more. So Genesis 2 is simply telling the same story of God making man and woman, but he's expanding on it because it was so compressed into so few words in the first chapter, so that's the purpose of chapter 2. We're not supposed to understand that in chapter 1 God made male and female, and then in chapter 2 he made another man and another woman. And that's how some people think of it, they don't realize that this is just an expansion on the first reference to it.

God only made one man and one woman, the Bible teaches, and that was Adam and Eve. All right, let's talk next to Tom from Denver, Colorado. Tom, welcome to The Narrow Path, thanks for calling. Hey Steve, can you hear me? The reception wasn't that great.

Oh good. Well it's not over yet, Tom Piteo said that there was a lot of fraud, well he didn't say that in words, but so we still have a chance, I don't know how to update you, but my question was regarding people who have been in religions and faiths that maybe have oppressed them, and even Christian faiths that have oppressed them and traumatized them to such a degree that they're almost allergic to hearing anything about God or reading the Bible, it almost triggers that fear back into them, and they just want nothing to do with religion anymore. What advice would you give people that have been through that type of situation? Well what I would suggest is that we're not interested in talking about religion, we're interested in talking about reality. Religion can be more or less in accord with reality, but the reality is not religion, the reality is a person, and that's Jesus. God is a real God. If people have had bad experiences with religious institutions or religious people, those are not the same thing as having problems with God himself, because God is not those people, and people who misrepresent God can definitely drive people away from God, and they bear a lot of responsibility for that. I think the degree to which any religious institution has put a bad taste in anyone's mouth toward God is a very serious offense, and Jesus said it's better to have a millstone put around your neck and be thrown into the sea than to be guilty of doing that. So many churches, many religious people who have misrepresented Christ and driven people away from Christ really have a lot to answer for. But if somebody has had that experience of being alienated from religious people, and there's a strange sound, I'm going to have to put you on hold here so I can't hear that. Many people who have had that experience are, well I'm hearing it anyway, let's see here, okay my problem is my computer's frozen up.

So studio, would you mind hanging that call up so I won't be hearing those noises? Getting back to you Tom, the person who has had a bad experience with religion needs to consider that religion may not be something that they should get near, but they should draw near to God. God is the ultimate, the creator, the lover of humanity, and the redeemer of humanity. And everyone who's been created and exists belongs to God. But we have all drifted from God. Different religions of the world try to kind of give different ways of getting back in touch with the divine. But we don't get in touch with God through religion.

We get in touch with God through Christ, there's no one but Christ through whom people can approach the Father. So we're not talking religion, we're talking about a person here. Jesus, the historical person, was the son of God, and he came down to earth because God loves people. Religious people sometimes are not very loving, like the religious people who crucified Jesus, the Pharisees and the chief priests, they were the most religious people in Israel, they killed Jesus because they hated him. Jesus was not so religious. It was the religious people that hated him, it was the sinners that loved him. Not because he was a sinner, he was far from it. He was pure, but he was loving towards sinners. He saw himself as a doctor going to sick people when he went to sinners. He has a very compassionate role that a doctor plays towards sinners. That's how Jesus was toward sinful people. Jesus saw people as sick and broken and in need of help, as sheep that have gone astray and don't have a shepherd, he called them. This is a compassionate view. Jesus was very unlike sinners in the sense that he didn't sin, but his attitude toward sinners was one of tremendous compassion, and that's why he died for sinners.

He died for us. And that's because God, who loves us, sent Jesus to do that. Now that's a very different thing than religion. We're talking about people coming into a relationship with this God, who loved us enough to send his son to die for us. And it's this relationship with God that transforms us out of the kingdom of Satan, and that's where all the abuse and evil takes place, into the kingdom of God, which is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. So obviously you can't confuse the kingdom of God with religion, because people in virtually every religion often do not seem to be righteous or peaceful or joyful. But the kingdom of God is righteous and peaceful and joyful. So to be in the kingdom means you actually come under Christ. You come and receive Christ in the role that God sent him to be, which is our King and our Lord. And when you have come to Christ as your Lord, then you are forgiven of all your sins.

You become a child of God, and you receive eternal life, and you become a follower and companion of Christ. And this is a very different thing than religion. So if somebody has been burned by religion, or by God, talk, no one has been burned by God, because God is good, and God doesn't betray people. God never breaks his word, for example. God is never cruel. Well, it wasn't God.

It may be people who talk about God that have burned you. But you can do an end run around those people and just go directly to God himself. And that's your hope.

That's everybody's hope, is to go to God through Christ. Listen, I can't go further on this at the moment, because we have a break coming up. We do have a half hour still ahead, so don't go away. We'll be taking calls. Our lines are full, and we'll be taking those calls.

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And that's how we stay on the air. You can help us out by going to our website, thenarrowpath.com. There's a donation tab there, or you can just take what's there for free at thenarrowpath.com. I'll be back in 30 seconds. Don't go away. Tell your family.

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Welcome back to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we're live for another half hour, taking your phone calls. Right now the lines are full, but if you want to take this number down and call in a few minutes, you might find a line has opened up. The number to reach me here is 844-484-5737. And you can call if you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, or if you have a different viewpoint from the host, we'll be glad to talk to you about that. Let's go to the phones and talk to Ken from Whittier, California.

Ken, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Yes. Hello? Hi.

Oh, okay, good, hold on. Okay, I have two quick questions. Number one, doesn't this verse back up a regional Genesis flood? Second Peter 3.6, the world that then existed perished being flooded with water. Number two, how much did Christ know about the Father? It seems that he was, Christ was aware that all things were created by him, but not the complete science behind it. For instance, he still as a child had to study the scriptures.

Okay, those are the two questions. Now tell me in what way you're getting a regional flood from Second Peter 3.6. It doesn't sound like it's talking about a regional flood. It says the world that then, T-H-E-N, existed. So that would mean, for instance, in Christ's time, the world that then existed would be the Roman Empire. So in the days of Noah, the world that then existed would even be a much smaller area. Well, the world that then existed, I just think that means the world as it was before the flood, as opposed to the world since the flood, because he goes on to say, but the world that now is, is kept in store for a judgment of fire, you know, that'll happen at the day of the Lord.

So I think that there's a world before the flood and there's the world since the flood. I don't think he's talking about necessarily a region. It is true that the word world in some contexts can refer to a region like the Roman Empire. Sometimes the New Testament calls the region of the world empire the world.

But it doesn't mean that the word world only and always means that. I think the evidence from Genesis is that the world that was flooded was the whole planet because it says the waters rose above the highest mountains. Now how would you contain a flood within a certain region if the water level was above the highest mountains?

And then it took a year to go down. I mean, in a regional flood, sometimes water comes quite deep into an area, but when the rain stops, it drains off in a relatively short time. But the rain of the flood of Noah ended after 40 days, but it was another year before the water was low and that's because it had to evaporate rather than run off somewhere.

It would easily have run off in less than a year if there were places that had not been flooded that the water could run off to. So it doesn't strike me from the description of the flood that it was regional. Some people think that it was. I think the language would suggest otherwise. And your other... Oh, can I add a little input? Okay. Oh, yeah.

Yes, I understand there would have to be some hyperbole involved if it's above the highest mountain. I see that alternate way of wording that you pointed out to then existed, but yeah, it does read a little awkward, but I'll have to think it over. Okay. Okay, that's enough. And what was your other question?

Your father? It was how much did Christ know about the father? Oh, yeah.

Right. Did he know how he created the world or did he just know that he created the world? Remember, there's... Well, he knew more than that. He knew more than that. He knew that the father had sent him and he knew what the father's plan was, but he didn't know it from birth. As a baby, he was just a baby. He didn't know anything.

Babies don't know anything, but... And you're right. He had to learn how to read. He had to learn stuff and the Bible says he did. When it speaks of Christ growing up as a child in Luke chapter 2, it says he increased in wisdom and in stature and in knowledge of God and man.

So... Or favor with God and man, excuse me. But he did increase in wisdom as he grew up, which means he didn't have all wisdom when he was little. He had to learn things. Now, I don't know when Jesus came to understand his special relationship with the father. He certainly knew as much about the father as the Old Testament taught because even the Jews knew things about the father from there, but Jesus knew more than they did. For example, by the time he was 12, he knew that he was God's son. I don't know what that all meant to him at age 12, but he speaks of God as his father, which the Jews did not generally speak of God as their father. When he spoke to Mary and Joseph, he said, why did you seek me?

You should have known I was about my father's business. Or another translation is in my father's house, meaning God is his father. So we know that by age 12, he knew that he and his father had a special relationship. He also had a connection with God where he received revelation. And even God spoke to him out loud from heaven at times. And we don't know exactly, you know, the depth of his knowledge of the father, but he certainly knew more about God the father than anybody else did, obviously. I mean, is there some reason you're wondering about the particular perimeters of his knowledge of God the father?

Oh, no. I guess it just causes me to wonder. He doesn't say that much in regards to Genesis, for instance, the very few references he uses. And I don't know whether he's just using it as a point of reference, that's something that the audience can understand, or if this is through, or a piece, I don't know. Okay, so you're wondering, so what you're wondering is whether Genesis can be trusted in stories on the occasions when Jesus speaks of it favorably, did he really know what he was talking about?

Is that what you're suggesting? Well, in a way, I'm trying to think how much did Christ, if he didn't have full knowledge of everything as it relates to creation, to the flood, or trouble, or everything else. Let me answer this way if I could. I believe that Jesus, when he was on earth, took on himself limits to his knowledge about certain things, and he said that he had limited knowledge, and yet he never affirmed anything that he didn't know to be true. For example, when the disciples asked him when his return would be, he said, I don't know that.

The father only knows that. Okay, so he admitted that's one of the things he didn't know, that the father did know, but he didn't speculate either. In other words, he didn't affirm something that he didn't know. He said that because he didn't know it, he couldn't affirm it.

People, if they're careful in their speech, can avoid saying things that they're not sure are true. Although Jesus may have had limits to his knowledge, we don't have any reason to believe that he had, what should we say, misconceptions, and certainly not that he spoke any misconceptions. If anything Jesus said was untrue, then I'm afraid we're stuck without him, because we can't trust him. If he could be wrong in what he affirms, then he might be wrong in anything he affirms, and we wouldn't know anything for sure about him. But if we know that he always spoke the truth, and that's what he said to Pilate, he said, for this purpose I was sent into the world that I'm to bear witness of the truth. He even said, I am the truth. I would say this, that although Jesus didn't speak about every subject, when he did speak, I believe he spoke the truth. If that's not so, then he's not who the Bible claims him to be and who he himself claimed to be.

When Jesus did affirm the story of Adam and Eve, for example, in Matthew chapter 19, or the story of the flood in Matthew 24, or the story of Cain and Abel, which he affirmed in Luke chapter 11, I think it is, or he also did so in Matthew 23, when he affirmed these things from Genesis, I believe we have to trust him on that. If we say, well, he didn't know everything, well, neither do we. If he believed in those things and we don't, what in the world would make us think that we know more than he did about it?

Yes I agree. He certainly knew everything the father felt he should know. So in other words, my point is, if you're wondering if his limited knowledge in his incarnation could disqualify some of the things he said, I'd say, well, no. Because if he thinks he didn't know, he wouldn't affirm.

No honest person will affirm things they don't know to be true, and especially not Jesus. I appreciate your call. I hope that answers the question. Ray from Henderson, Nevada.

Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hello. Hi. Hi Ray.

Yes. I've got basically a two part type of a question scenario is that I moved from the Midwest to basically get away from the weather there because I've got this condition that weather dynamic changes and weather create an exacerbation of my continuous headache. And so I've prayed about this for, I actually had a headache condition before the continuous headache, and I have prayed about it.

I've had people lay hands on me and you know, on and on and on the whole gamut. And so the first question is, at what point is my complaining and anger about my pain a sin? Well I don't think we should ever be angry, well, who are we angry at? You know, I mean, yeah, the condition, the condition, I actually have to be angry at myself because it's probably something that I did.

Well it may not be something you did. Righteous people suffer. Job is a proof of that, Joseph and the Old Testament is another proof of that, and David too, and Jesus, you know, and the apostles, you know, righteous people suffer. So as far as being angry about it, I just think it's, you know, if people are angry, I always wonder who are they angry at? If they're angry at God, then I think that is a sin. Now if they're angry at the disease, I'm not sure what good that does. I mean, the disease is not a personality that you would, you know, be angry at. You might be angry that the disease is there, but kind of in a vague way.

I just don't think it's productive to be angry at something that you can't change. I think that we have to trust God that if this was something that he wanted to have healed at this time, he would have done so, especially since you said you've had hands laid on you that have been prayed for and so forth. And the fact that that hasn't resulted in healing must mean either that someone didn't have faith, but I'm not going to lay that on them, or that God didn't want to heal. And that I could accept because God doesn't always want to heal. He does often want us to endure trials of various kinds for a number of reasons.

I would suggest maybe my lecture series, which of course everything on our website is free. I have a lecture, it's called making sense out of suffering. And I think that would explain why sometimes God does not heal, I believe. But to be angry that God didn't heal, eventually it becomes a matter of you're missing your chance to pass a test here. I mean, Job had horrible suffering, including physical pain.

And he said, you know, well, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord. Yeah, but that wasn't for decades. Well, no, it was not.

It was not, but it would have still been the right thing for him to say if it did last for decades. We don't know how long it lasted. Obviously he was being tested and his test may have lasted only a few weeks or months. We don't know. But if the test lasts for 10 years or a whole lifetime, it's still a test and still the response to it is going to be the right, the same thing in every case. And that is that we recognize that we have asked God to remove the suffering and he has not chosen to do it.

So it must not be as well. Remember Paul said in second Corinthians 12, he had this thorn in the flesh, which was tormenting him. And he said, he prayed three times that God would take it away. And God, instead, Jesus spoke to him and said, my grace is sufficient for you. My strength is made perfect in your weakness. Now, Paul was very much tormented by this sickness, but he said, well, okay, so I'll then I'll, I'll rejoice in my, in my, uh, in my sickness and my weaknesses and so forth.

So that is, uh, that seems to be the, the godly way to respond. Jesus of course suffered horribly on the cross. And as he anticipated, he prayed that God would spare him of it and, uh, God didn't. And when, when it was clear to Jesus that he was going to be arrested and die and God didn't answer as he wished, uh, he said, well, the cup that my father has given me, shall he not drink it? You know, it was actually the devil and the bad people that are bringing the suffering to him. But he saw it as the cup his father gave him because his father had the power to relieve him of it.

And he had prayed for it, but God had decided to say no to that one. And so God, I'm, uh, I'm quite up on all that, uh, kind of studied it to death. Uh, so, uh, to move on to the second part, uh, of course, uh, I know you're familiar with, uh, first Corinthians, uh, six 19 to 21, do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy spirit within you whom you have from God, you're not your own for your bought with a price of glorified God in your pocket and your body. So to what extent is, uh, and I've been, uh, because I'm having gotten relief for this and, uh, I kind of question, uh, my, my needs to be on this earth, although, uh, I, uh, I am do, I'm very, uh, uh, you know, um, active in trying to persuade people like, uh, regarding the deep state and things like that, uh, I've even tried evangelism, things like that.

I've been pretty active, but not, not successful at it. And so, uh, it kind of makes me wonder, or, you know, why I'm on the earth. So, uh, I can't justify myself for being on the earth and suffering. So I've been praying for an early death. And so, uh, and, and actually, um, uh, for my, for my age, uh, I, uh, take great care of my body, but I'm kind of wondering if, you know, if I'm, uh, uh, uh, number one, am I extending my life and number two, at what point, uh, does one have to take care of the temple? Uh, you know, I'm, uh, basically religious about it, but then I'm wondering, well, you know, maybe I'm, uh, spending too much time on it. And maybe if I let myself go, should have, so to speak, like a lot of Christians are they're fat and, uh, just kind of let myself go, well, I die early and then get relief from my pain.

What's your thinking on that? Well, you kind of rambled around to a lot of points there, but I guess among the points you're wondering about is, uh, since you're in pain and you actually find it more relieving to die young. And of course, anyone who's in chronic pain must sometimes feel that way, unless they're terrified of death, which Christians are not. Um, I would just say this, when it says your body's the temple of the Holy Spirit, it's not referring in first Corinthians six to your obligation to keep it healthy. It's not even talking about the health of it. He's talking about the obligation to keep it pure, uh, sexually pure. He's talking about how you don't want to sleep with a prostitute because you become one flesh with her and you'll involve Christ in that and, and you're, you're defiling the temple. So, uh, the, the reference to the body being the temple is, uh, to encourage us to treat it like a holy thing. And it's not, it's, uh, you know, the health of the body is not the main issue. Like I said, Paul was unhealthy, but he had, uh, he kept his body pure. The temple was not compromised by his ill health, uh, because the health of the body is not what's even the concern here, uh, in, in, in the description of it as a temple, but you certainly don't want to destroy it. You don't want to commit suicide.

Obviously. I mean, a Christian would never want to do that, uh, or they might want to at times, but they would not, that would not be recognized as an option. Um, if you say, well, maybe I shouldn't take such good care of my body because then I could die earlier. Uh, yeah, you might or you might not. I mean, if you just let yourself go and like you said, get fat and unhealthy and so forth, uh, you still might live a long time, but just be more miserable because you'll be fat and unhealthy. Uh, at least at this point you have pain, but in other ways you have health. Uh, you don't know how much you might compromise your health without dying.

You might live as long as the next person, um, whether, whether you take care of yourself or not, that's God's decision, but we have to leave that decision with God. I, I don't want to seem callous cause I know how horrible it must be to have constant pain. I don't get headaches very often, but when I do, I'm such a wimp, I can hardly function with a headache. Uh, but I have people close to me who have headaches very frequently or in chronic pain a lot and I just don't know, uh, how, how that must be.

It must be horrible. And I do sympathize, but I'm not in a position to help. Unfortunately there's, I can't make the headache go away. I can't make suffering go away. None of us can make suffering go away completely.

And in some cases nobody can, uh, because of the kind of sickness it is or the kind of problem it is. I don't know what the cause is of your pain, but so I can't do anything about it, but I can tell you what the Bible teaches. And uh, the truth may help, although it may not make you less pain in pain, I would say that God allows us to experience pain so that we are driven closer to him so that we can learn to trust him so we can learn to resign our wills to his will, uh, and to, uh, and to be shaped by our suffering into people who are more like Jesus, more loving, more trusting, more humble. These things, uh, the Bible says are brought about by suffering in our lives. So that would be, I can't say much more than that. I mean, I realized that you're kind of rambling all over looking for some kind of relief and some kind of answers and I wish I had the kind of answers that would bring physical relief.

I don't have those answers. Um, but I do know that Christians around the world throughout history have suffered and suffering is a very normal human condition, but Christians have God, they have his grace. If they're trusting in him, they have his grace to help them through suffering. And I don't know, I can't, I can't guarantee that your life won't be very, very painful for the rest of your life.

I hope it isn't, but I don't know. But it's not our, it's not in our power or it's not our right, I should say, to end our lives prematurely. I think we need to do what we can to be good stewards of our bodies, as you say you are, and that's good. And you know, to draw near to God and try to help other people draw near to God. And when God feels that we have no more functionality in this world, when he thinks he can get nothing more from us of value, then he'll release us from this, this veil of tears and take us to be with him where there's no suffering or pain of any kind.

So that's all I can really say to your situation. And I wish, I mean, whenever I hear about people like yourself in chronic pain of obviously I, my heart breaks, I wish I could do something to, to make it go away. But that's not in my power and apparently not in yours and possibly not in anyone's power except God's. And if he wants us to continue to suffer for a while, that's, that can be good for us.

That's what the Bible says. It says in first Peter chapter four and verse 19, therefore, let those who suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in doing well and doing good as unto a faithful creator. So there are people who suffer. We all suffer sometimes according to the will of God says, let those who suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him.

That's first Peter four 19 by doing good. He also says in first chapter five verse 10, he says, may the God of all grace who called us to his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen and settled you. So Peter says, you're gonna suffer a while, but the God of all grace obviously will give us grace. And he's called us to his glory and he's going to perfect us after we've suffered a while. We'd rather be perfected without suffering, but we don't really make the calls about that. God does. That's why Paul, when he prayed three times that his sickness would go away.

God said, well, that's not what's going to happen. My grace is sufficient for you. My strength is made perfect in your weakness. Paul said in the same book in second Corinthians chapter four, he said in verse 16, therefore we do not lose heart, even though our outward man, he means our physical bodies is perishing. Yet the inward man is being renewed day by day for our light affliction, which is but for a moment. And he means a lifetime as a moment compared to eternity is working for us. This affliction is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen for the things that are seen are temporary, but the things that are not seen are eternal. So we, he says, we keep our focus on the things that are not seen rather than the temporary things. Sickness is a temporary thing.

Pain is a temporary thing. We don't focus on that. We obviously we can't be unaware of it as we're suffering. We're not unaware of it, but we keep our eyes looking at the things that are eternal.

The prize, God himself, his faithfulness, his goodness, and so forth. And that's how we respond to suffering. Everyone has suffering, but not everyone responds to it in a way that's going to be helpful to themselves or to the glory of God. My, uh, my sympathies for you in your condition, it sounds terrible and I'm sure many will pray for you here.

John from Dallas, Texas. Welcome to the narrow path. Thanks for calling. Can you hear me? Yeah, but I'll hear better if your radio is not turned on. Okay.

I'll turn it off. You know, I appreciate all you do. I had a question for you, but the last guy you talked to, you basically had me in tears. I really appreciate that.

This guy we just talked to? Yes. I mean, I had a question of my own, but I mean, you answered it in the scriptures that you said and it brought me to tears and I can't remember the last time I cried. Wow. Wow.

Thank you for that. Um, I, I feel for the guy and I pray for him because we all struggle with something and I don't know, it's just, I know it's so sad when you see the suffering that many people go through and especially, you know, when you don't, do you remember, do you remember talking to me? I don't remember what we talked about. Sexual sin and living the gay lifestyle and trying to come out of it. Well, I'm not sure if I'm remembering your call specifically because we've talked to a number of people in those conditions, but what was it you shared with us before?

Just bring me up to speed. I'm just trying to come out of it and a guy called in and said he felt for me and tried to give me a couple of resources of addiction and all that other stuff. Um, I mean, I'm actually at a loss for words after he spoke with that guy and he said what she said, I mean, I feel for him, I would just say, I, I'm not worried about my problem at the moment.

I just, my thoughts are on him and they don't give up. Don't let yourself go. You know, the version of you gave him, like I've never heard those and it was, and it was so heartfelt that I really appreciated it. Well, thank you, John. I sure appreciate your call. I wish we could talk longer. The music plane tells me that I have to get off the air in about 30 seconds. So I'm sorry that we can't go longer, but I appreciate your kind words and I'm sure people will be praying for you with your struggles, uh, just as they will be for that brother Tom who has pain or Ray who has pain. You've been listening to The Narrow Path.

My name is Steve Gregg. We are listener supported. If you'd like to help us stay on the air, you can write to The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730 Temecula, California 92593 or go to our website, thenarrowpath.com. Let's talk again tomorrow. God bless you.