The Narrow Path 9/11

Music Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for an hour each weekday afternoon and we have our phone lines open for you to call if you have questions about the Bible or about Christianity, the Christian faith, Christian ethics, anything like that. Feel free to give me a call. We'll also talk to you if you'd like to call about anything you may disagree with the host about and you might want to support another view on anything. So the number, now our lines just filled up. So if you call right now you'll get a busy signal. Take this number down and later in the program lines will be opening up and if you call back a little later you may get through. The number is 844-484-5737.

That's 844, excuse me, 844-484-5737. Today is of course 9-11 and therefore the anniversary of the destruction of the Twin Towers but also happens to be the anniversary of my parents getting married 71 years ago. So this is their 71st anniversary today. So I know they're listening.

So happy anniversary mom and dad. All right, let's go to the phones and talk to Mike in Shelton, Washington. Mike, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hey Steve, thank you for taking my call.

Just wanted to first say my wife and I are growing in leaps and bounds listening to your lectures and happy anniversary Mr. and Mrs. Gregg. So my question is, so we were taught dispensationalism at every church that we attended and in fact didn't even know there was other views of eschatology. So we feel like it was never presented as such, you know, when you read the statement of faith you don't really see the word dispensationalism. So we almost feel not misled but just like it's just not talked about.

Maybe, I don't know, if it's just taken for granted. But we've changed our view since then and we're just looking for a little bit of direction because we feel like we live in a rural area. There's not a lot of churches to choose from. We feel like, you know, finding a home church might be unlikely. So what do we do?

We're just looking for a little advice. Well first of all, yeah, a lot of churches don't mention that they are dispensationalist because it's possible they don't even know it. I know that I was a dispensationalist from my upbringing for many years before I knew very much about what dispensationalism meant.

I didn't even know the title. My teachers didn't mention the word dispensationalism. They just said this is what the Bible teaches and so I just took it for granted when I was young that that was true. It took some study on my own to realize that it wasn't and that there was a name for this novel view that has captured so many of the evangelical American churches. As far as churches that aren't dispensational, they are out there and some of them will disagree with you on other issues.

That is, if you see things very much like I do. For example, Reformed churches are not usually dispensational but they are Calvinistic and I'm not a Calvinist. I don't know if you are or not but whether you are not, you'll find Amillennialism usually or Postmillennialism in churches like Reformed and Presbyterian churches. You can find Amillennial churches that are not Calvinistic, though there aren't very many groups like that. The Church of Christ is like that. They're neither dispensational nor Calvinistic. The Church of God, Anderson, Indiana, this denomination is, I like this group pretty much, although it's a small denomination and they don't have churches everywhere.

I first encountered them on the Oregon coast many years ago and I really liked it but they are not dispensational and they're not Calvinistic. There are others too out there but the main thing I would say is it doesn't matter so much whether a church is dispensationalist or even Calvinist as long as that's not their hobby horse. If they're only talking about those things all the time, then you're not going to get fed because your filter is going to be on and you're going to have to reject a large number of things they say every Sunday or whenever they speak. There are people who are dispensationalist and who are Calvinist who don't talk about it all the time. They talk about Jesus.

They talk about following the Lord. You may have a hard time finding a non-dispensational church and you might even have a hard time finding a good church but there are good churches that are dispensational and there are good churches where the pastors lean toward Calvinism. One of my favorite pastors in history was George Muller. He was both dispensationalist and Calvinist and yet those were not his issues.

His issue was serving God and helping orphans and things like that. You find a church like that and you found probably a good church. What makes a church good is not whether they agree or disagree with us on those kinds of things but whether they love each other, whether the leadership is humble and servant-minded as opposed to dictatorial, which some churches have leaders that are, whether the people love God and they love each other and you can tell that they love each other sincerely. You can find a church that's dispensationalist and has a loving pastor and a loving congregation and I'd say it's a great church to consider going to.

So I don't know what to suggest other than that. By the way, Anabaptist churches are usually not dispensationalist and they're certainly not Calvinistic. That would be things like Mennonites and such. So there are groups that don't embrace either of those doctrines but almost every denomination embraces either Calvinism or dispensationalism or both and so you may have to settle for something like that. There's a lot of different kinds of banisters.

Some of them are dispensational and some are not. What if my wife and I were just listening to one of your lectures or something. Is that church or is that more just being yourself? Well there's certainly nothing wrong with having worship and study in your own home with a very small group. I mean Jesus said where two or more are gathered there am I in the midst of them and my family for many years has been involved in a house church that's fairly small but I will say if it's very small you may get a little bit lonely. You may want to have more relationships and again I don't think there's anything wrong at all with Christians having good relationships with other Christians who don't hold their same theology and so again if you go to a church where you may not be on the same theological page with them but they're loving people you might make some very valuable friends. But I mean if you and your wife just listen to YouTube, Bible studies and worship and pray together and so forth it's not like you're doing something that's forbidden but like I said I think you'll feel that your fellowship circle is much smaller than you want it to be. You're going to want some larger sense of Christian community I think in your life. Yeah no you're right we already feel that way that's that's why what led me to call that. Thank you very much. Yeah I'm sorry. You really appreciate your ministry.

Oh thank you for saying so. There's many of our listeners who call and have the same issue they don't know how to find a good church in their area and you know there are some good churches around but of course there's a lot of trends in churches that aren't very great. I guess if you go to Matthew713.com there's the opportunity to check for what home churches or something and there's lists of fellowships that some of the people who are listeners recommend that's Matthew713.com. Oh and by the way I got an email yesterday that said that somebody put that in wrong. They spelled Matthew with only one T. Of course Matthew has two T's. He said if you if you put it in wrong there's like some kind of a virus or something you may get so so make sure you spell Matthew correctly if you go to Matthew713.com.

There's two T's in Matthew. Okay well thank you Steve. Safe travels on your trip and looking forward to the debate with Chris Dade.

Yeah that's coming up soon. God bless you Mike. Thanks for your call. Okay you too. Bye bye. Okay David from Canterbury, New Hampshire. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling David.

Hey Steve. It's good to hear you in there. I really really admire what you're doing. It's so exciting to hear what the next question is going to be. I get all tingly just listening. You get all tingly, huh? Me too.

I'm over 80. I haven't been to church in over 30 going around 33 years so you know I'm not trying to preach or anything like that but I do study all the time and I try to stay close to God and I just don't understand how the Christian church can accept the Sunday Sabbath. There's just nothing in doctrine to support it. If you read Exodus 31, he sanctifies the Sabbath and he calls it a perpetual covenant between God and his people. And the church in the world in this were tested three days out. God tested them and he tested them on the Sabbath first. Now it seems to me like the test is going to be on a rapture. The people who refuse to keep the Saturday Sabbath are going to have to die in a great tribulation. People who are willing to be obedient, as the book of Hebrews says, salvation comes to those who obey. People who are willing to keep the Saturday Sabbath will be raptured to a place of final training with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. David, let me jump in here because you said you weren't going to preach and you've done nothing but preach since you got on here.

Let me jump in here. Why haven't you been to church for 30 years? Sounds like you're a seventh-day Adventist. I never was a seventh-day Adventist. I'm a retired lawyer. I live back in the woods all alone.

I'm a mile and a half from the nearest light bulb. Let me jump in here because you've said a lot, most of which, frankly, I don't agree with. I don't agree that the seventh-day Sabbath is an issue, but I agree with you in saying that there's no basis in the Scripture for having a Sunday Sabbath. That is, of course, true. In the Bible, whenever the Bible mentions the Sabbath, it's always talking about Saturday. It's always talking about the Jews' worship. Whenever you read of the Sabbath in the Bible, Old or New Testament, it's talking about the Jewish observance of the Sabbath and synagogue worship and things like that. Now, that isn't Christianity.

Of course, it's a different religion. The Jewish religion is based on a covenant that God made at Mount Sinai in the time of Moses. The Sabbath was commanded at that time.

It wasn't commanded after that or, excuse me, before that, but it was commanded at that time. We're not under that covenant anymore. That covenant was for Israel.

In fact, the passage you mentioned in Exodus chapter 31 specifically says that. It says that the children of Israel should keep the Sabbath. He said in verse 17, it's a sign between me and the children of Israel forever.

For in six days, the Lord made heavens and the earth, and in the seventh day, he rested and was refreshed. So he said it's a sign between Israel and God. Now, it does say forever, but this word forever is used of quite a few things like circumcision is demanded forever. Keeping the temple worship and God dwelling in Solomon's temple is said to be forever. God told Solomon, I'll dwell in your temple forever.

Of course, that temple has been destroyed for 2,500 years or more, and it doesn't exist. So what the Bible says is forever. We have to understand the word olam in the Hebrew is what's translated forever. It just means for a very, very long time or for the foreseeable future, or if there's an end to it, it's beyond the horizon where you can't see it.

That's what the word olam means. It doesn't always mean endlessly, and of course, God, you know, did say he was going to make a new covenant in Jeremiah 31, and he said it'll be not like the old covenant that he made at Mount Sinai. So it's not going to be the same covenant.

It's going to be a different one, and Jesus entered into that new covenant with his disciples in the upper room when he said this cup is the new covenant in my blood, and the Bible says that where there's a new covenant, the old covenant is obsolete. So Jesus never commanded anyone to keep a Sabbath day. Paul never did. Peter never did. John never did. James never did. The book of Revelation never did. There's actually no one in the New Testament ever recommended or commanded keeping the Sabbath day, although virtually every command of value that's moral is, in fact, repeated in the New Testament. So anyway, I just disagree with you about the Sabbath keeping.

I don't think it's an obligation in the New Testament, but I appreciate your call. Let's talk to Jeff from Waddell, Arizona. Jeff, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Hi, Steve. I have a question about 2 Timothy 3, 1 through 9. And Paul is talking about the last days and how they're going to be terrible. And then he talks about people who doing those terrible things, he says, have nothing to do with them. So we know from that statement that he believes the last days are then. And then he goes on to talk about Jannies and Jamborees opposing Moses in verses 6 through 9. And so he's referring to, you know, an Old Testament time. But my question is, the last days, what was the first church's mindset about the last days? Was it the messianic era beginning with a time of Christ?

Or haven't people always been wicked? I mean, since the time of the fall, it seems like all those terrible things that people are going to be in the last days have been something that people have always been. So could he have been referring to, it's kind of a two part question, I guess, the last days of all time, or the last days starting with Christ coming to earth? Or was he even talking about the last days of Jerusalem? Because did they have that in mind too, AD 70, when they spoke about the last days, because their world for many of them would have ended with, you know, an AD 70.

And Christ had clearly spoken about that. Yeah. Well, yes. Okay. Yeah.

You're right. The last days have been understood three different ways. Some popular preachers take it to mean the end of the world days. And they believe we're living in the last days in that sense. There are many scholars who believe the last days refers to the whole age that was inaugurated by Christ and continues till the end of the world like 2000 years long. And the third view is that it's the last days of the third temple, excuse me, the first second temple, second temple Judaism.

And that's it's the end of the Jewish nation and the end of the Jewish religion. And a lot of the prophets in the Old Testament spoke about the latter times and the last days. And they spoke about the destruction of the corrupt system of the temple, which had become corrupted by the corrupt priests and so forth, and talks about the Messiah coming and bringing an order of justice and righteousness. And that's, I believe that's how the apostles understood the last days. Because Peter, of course, on the day of Pentecost said, this is that which was spoken of by Joel, when he said, in the last days, I'll pour out my spirit on our flesh. Now, he said that the last days was when the spirits being poured out, which is when he was living there at Pentecost. But we don't know whether he just saw it beginning then and going on till the end of the world, or going on to the end of Jerusalem. But it strikes me that he's probably thinking about the last days of Jerusalem and the Jewish order, because he goes on to quote from Joel about how there'd be this, this destruction that did occur in 7 David. He quotes from Joel chapter two, which begins by mentioning this pouring out of the Holy Spirit and proceeds to talk about the destruction of Jerusalem and the blood and the fire and the smoke and the sky and so forth. And Peter quotes that whole passage. And so I think he's seen the last days being the last days before the destruction of Jerusalem, during which the prophet said the Messiah would set up a new order before he destroys the old order.

So I'm thinking that way. Now, when Paul talks about the last days, he may be thinking in those terms, or he may have had some idea more of a further out last days, but here it could be that when he talks about how evil these people will be in the last days, he may be talking about the Jews in the last days of their order, especially at the time when Jerusalem was under siege, they became more wicked than virtually ever before in their history. And even Josephus who was there and wrote about it, he said there never was such a corrupt race as this ever since the world began. And I mean, he may have been using hyperbole, but it was, if you read what Josephus wrote, all these horrible crimes and misdeeds that Paul says will happen in the last days did occur in Israel. He may not be talking about the pagans.

You're right. Pagans always behave that way. The Jews didn't always behave that way, but they certainly did at the end of their temple order there before they were destroyed.

So I'm, I lean toward, I lean toward that view. They start with the last days of the Jewish order. Yeah, especially because, you know, this is apparently one of the last letters he ever wrote, dated around 67, which is right before the destruction began, the siege began. And it might've, you know, I'm sure that they saw the writing on the wall by this time and maybe the troops are even marching there.

And I have read Josephus and yeah, it's abominable stuff and, and actions and, and, uh, you know, the way that the, the Jews fought each other in Jerusalem while they even being besieged, even before that, how they had gone into different camps and they were cutting off each hands and just unbelievable stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Hey Jeff, I need to take another call, but that's my, that'd be my answer. Thank you for your call.

God bless you. All right. Bye now. All right. Steven from Wilmington, Ohio.

Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hey Steve, how's it going? Good. Great to hear from you. Good.

Yeah, it's good to talk to you. Uh, yeah, I just wanted to get your opinion on something. So a couple of TV shows on PBS kids, they're like throwing full support behind black lives matter, you know, and like encouraging kids to make a sign and protest and like, uh, what was the other thing? Uh, they said, like, it's not enough to say that you're not racist. You have to actively oppose racism. And like, I'm just thinking of the, you know, when Jesus said, whoever causes, you know, the children distant and I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

Okay. Well, uh, every Christian who is follower of Jesus does oppose racism because Christianity is characterized by love for your brother. And if you love your brother, it's not just the persons of your same race.

It's all all races. So, I mean, racism, uh, just doesn't occur when you love your neighbors, you love yourself. In fact, when Jesus quoted to the Jewish lawyer, that passage that said, you shall love your neighbors yourself.

The lawyer said, well, who's my neighbor? And as he was hoping to limit it, that he doesn't have to love everybody's let's, let's see how limited I can make this definition of neighbor. And Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan and the Samaritan, of course, and the Jew that he helped a Jewish man. Uh, they were not of the same race. They were not of the same religion.

In fact, they were of hostile religions and nations to each other. So Jesus made it very clear, love your neighbors. You love yourself includes a Samaritan loving a Jew and a Jew loving a Samaritan, which is of course basically saying you can't really be a racist and love your neighbors.

You love yourself. So we do oppose it if we love our neighbors, but if what they mean is you can't just not be a racist, you have to support the organization, black lives matter. I would say, well, then why doesn't black lives matter?

Oppose racism. Uh, they actually, uh, they actually, the very name of their, their organization, black lives matter, emphasizes one race over another. And if you say, yeah, I agree, I agree with you black lives matter, but I think all lives matter. They say, no, that's racist to say that. So in other words, they're just taking the word racist and making it mean whatever they want it to mean that racism is when you treat one group of people with special deference or special contempt because of their race. And for no other reason, but when you say black lives matter and you object to the correction, yeah, all lives matter, black, white, yellow, blue, whatever, all lives matter.

And they object to that. It shows that no, we only want the black lives to matter. Uh, well then I'd have to say they are a racist organization. And so why should I support black lives matter if I'm supposed to be opposed to racism? Uh, you see, nobody ever doubted that black lives matter.

This is the thing. Before the organization came up, there was no, and I'd never met a person who didn't think that black lives matter except maybe for abortion doctors, abortion doctors, black lives matter. And I guess there are some blacks, uh, black gangs in Chicago that don't believe that black lives matter cause they kill a lot of black people. But, um, for example, there, there are no doubt racist police because there's racist people in the population, but I don't think that they would say that black lives, I don't think very many of them would say that black lives don't matter. I think they recognize it was human beings these days. It's a long time since slavery in the times of slavery, there were bigots who believe that black lives were less than human.

I don't know if anyone believes that anymore. Even racist, I don't think believe that anymore. But, but there are times there are people who probably have treated blacks, uh, more roughly or less fairly because they didn't like them. And that's racist.

It's not the same thing as saying their lives don't matter. It's just, it's, you know, lots of people are racist who would never kill anyone, never take somebody's life from them. But, um, there are, there are some racist police, but not very many that, I mean, percentage wise, there's not very many whose racism shows up in their behavior toward, uh, toward criminal, uh, you know, suspects. Um, the, the number of innocent black people who were not committing crimes that were killed by police, I think it was last year, it was 14 nationwide.

Um, that's not very many. And there's 600,000 police, uh, you know, employed in this country. So that's over half a million police and 14 of them killed somebody, uh, who was black and was not armed, but not, but even if they're not, uh, armed, that doesn't mean they were harmless. I mean, a lot of times these guys have, uh, you know, big, big fists and they're fighting with the police. So I, I, I'm not in favor of any innocent person being killed by anybody, black, white, or any other color. But, uh, there's no, there's no statistical evidence of systemic, uh, systemic racism among the police against blacks.

In fact, that that has been examined, uh, and statistically analyzed a number of times and found out if anything, uh, the police are much more prone to shoot a white criminal than a black criminal, uh, just on, on, in terms of, uh, per capita in the population. Hey, I need to, I need to take a break here, but, uh, yeah, I think if your children are watching those TV shows, you better take them off them because it's propaganda. You're listening to the narrow path radio broadcast. We're not done. We have another half hour coming up, so don't go away. At this point, I want to let you know that the narrow path is a listener supported ministry and we, uh, we pay for the time that we use on the radio costs tens of thousands of dollars a month actually, and we don't have any sponsors.

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Everything at our website is free, but you can also donate from there. It's the narrow path.com. I'll be back in 30 seconds. Don't go away. Small is the gate and narrow is the path that leads to life. Welcome to the narrow path with Steve. Greg, Steve has nothing to sell you today, but everything to give you when the radio show is over, go to the narrow path.com where you can study, learn and enjoy with free topical audio teachings, blog articles, verse by verse teachings and archives of all the narrow path radio shows. We thank you for supporting the listeners supported narrow path with Steve. Greg, see you at the narrow path.com.

Welcome back to the narrow path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Greg and we're live for another half hour taking your calls. Once again, our lines are full, which means you can't call through right now and get on, but you can call in a few minutes and get on cause lines open up.

One of them just opened just now. See, as I was talking, I must have scared somebody off. So there's one line open at eight four four four eight four 57 37.

That's eight four four four eight four 57 37. If you'd like to be on the program, our next caller is Alex from Honolulu, Hawaii. Alex, welcome to the narrow path. Thanks for calling. Hi Steve. Good to talk to you again.

Thanks for taking my call. So my question today is, so I heard a song recently and it got me wondering, I was hoping you could clarify some things on this. It was about the, um, the anointing of the Holy Spirit and, um, the connection of that with like oil or the meaning of oil in the Bible and the song lyrics, I'll give you a brief excerpt. It's a fill my lamp with Holy Spirit oil so that I can testify of you. And then the bridge goes, I want more of your fresh oil.

You give more of your power. And then it repeats on my lamp with Holy Spirit oil. Um, the song's called fresh oil. So is there a connection between the Holy Spirit and oil or is it actually the case that this song is just conflating two things that shouldn't be? Well, you know, some, but if, even if the Holy, even if the Bible said nothing about the Holy Spirit and oil together, it's not wrong for a song to use a metaphor.

I mean, if, if the songwriter had just made it up and said, I'm going to compare, uh, the Holy Spirit to oil in a lamp and I need for my light to shine, I need, I need to be filled with that oil. There'd be nothing, nothing heretical or wrong, but actually there are precedents in the, in the Bible to compare, uh, oil and the Holy Spirit, uh, principally in Zechariah chapter four, where, uh, Zechariah sees a vision of two olive trees. Now, olive oil is what they used in lamps and in the lamp of the temple, the seven, uh, branched candlestick. And so they got their oil from olives, olive trees. And in the vision, there were two olive trees and the lamp standing in the middle and pipes running directly from the trees to the lamp.

As if you get olive oil from an olive tree, like you get a maple from a, you know, a maple tree. Um, it's obviously symbolic, but the idea is that there's olive oil flowing to this lamp to keep burning. And, and then God, uh, interpreted it and said, this is the word of the Lord is, uh, is a rubbable, uh, not by might nor by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord. He's talking about his spirit representing the oil or the oil representing the Holy Spirit there. Also, of course, uh, when Kings were installed in Israel, especially Saul and David, uh, they were anointed with oil. And when they were anointed with oil, uh, the Holy Spirit came upon them at that time. So apparently the oil was an emblem of that anointing. Um, so there are cases in the Bible where oil, uh, is a metaphor for the, for the Holy Spirit. Uh, it may not be, it's not the only metaphor for the Holy Spirit, but it is sometimes used. Okay. Right.

Yeah. I was, uh, you know, you have any thoughts on why it might be kind of a metaphor for the Holy Spirit is what I was actually getting at. Oh, well, I mean, there's lots of metaphors for the Holy Spirit. Uh, he, he came down the form of a dove, for example, uh, some symbolized in the Holy Spirit, a water is, uh, is a common, uh, metaphor for the Holy Spirit and oil. Also, uh, when in Isaiah talks about how God's going to break out with streams in the desert, when he pours out his spirit upon Israel, it's going to be like, uh, he's pouring out his spirit as waters from heaven to bring forth spiritual fruit in the wilderness. Uh, you know, Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit as, um, living water in John seven versus 37 through 39. He said, anyone thirst, let him come to me and drink.

And, uh, you know, out of my belly will flow rivers of living water. And John says, he spoke this about the Holy Spirit. So water, oil, uh, wind is also, uh, uh, an emblem of the spirit. In fact, the word wind in the Greek and the Hebrew is the same word as spirit.

Uh, so there's a lot of different ways to, but I think using oil, um, uh, you know, I, I, well, again, to light lamps, the oil lamps, uh, they burned on from oil. That's, I guess one reason one could use that metaphor. Um, there may be other reasons. I'm not really sure. Okay. Yeah. And so, and one more quick question if I have time, uh, it's, uh, I was wondering if you knew of any good, uh, books, um, or even some primary sources that I can like access today, either online, or maybe if I go to a library on church history or some early church historian, um, either books about that subject or primary sources on it.

Well, the primary sources on the earliest church history would be what we call the church fathers. There's like what, 34 or 36 volumes of that available. It's a big set.

It's bigger than a set of encyclopedias. I happen to have it because my wonderful wife bought it for me for Christmas or for my birthday once at some point, but, uh, it's a, it's a lifetime of reading. I mean, it'll take, it'll take years to read it all, but you're welcome to it. And I've, I've read, of course, some of it myself. Um, uh, that, that's a primary source. Uh, I guess other primary sources of different times in church history would be reading the letters and the writings of people like Luther and Calvin and, and Wesley and the people from the period you're studying. There's almost an infinite amount of, you know, sources depending who you want to study and reading their writings would be, uh, would be the primary sources. Now, uh, when we talk about secondary sources, this would be people who have studied primary sources and, and summarize, uh, either one period of church history or maybe the whole, whole of church history.

And there's lots of books about that too. Uh, Phillip Schaff spelled S C H A F F is a noted church historian. He's got, I think eight volumes, if I'm not mistaken on church history, um, covering up to the reformation, uh, pretty much. Um, there's, there's a lot of people who've written very exhaustive church histories. Uh, Laura, Laura, I mean, uh, I know of one, uh, one author who wrote, I think it was five, four, five volumes, I think on the book of acts alone, which is a very short period of history.

Yeah. I don't know if you're aware, I have a series on church history on my website where I teach through the whole period in 30 lectures. And of course that's free, like everything at the website, you just listen to it. But, um, I've got books and books on church history that I use when I'm studying and teaching it. So I, I don't know if any I could recommend above others. I do know that, uh, lots of people like Bruce Shelley's book, church history and plain language. Uh, it's, it's a good one. It's, uh, you know, it's not necessarily, it doesn't stand out as better than all the others that I've seen, but it's, it's a good one and lots of people like it.

It's written for, uh, the layman, I think for the most, it's called church history and plain language by, I think it's Bruce Shelley. Um, so those are some suggestions for you. Okay. Well I appreciate all of that, Steve. Um, thank you and God bless. Okay.

Alex, God bless you too. Thanks for the call. Uh, George from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania or Pittsburgh, California, which is it? Uh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania, because there's a Pittsburgh in Northern California too. I didn't know. Go ahead. Uh, the question I have, I hope I don't screw this up. Uh, it's a question about masturbation and what I want to know is how does that compare with adultery and fermentation and where does it fall?

In other words, rather than to keep you on the phone too long. Uh, is this a problem that people have that because of the chemical makeup, the body, it is not possible to, uh, control it to a hundred percent. Uh, no one ever, when I was in Catholic school, they never talked about this stuff. They don't talk about it.

They don't talk about it in churches very often. Uh, and frankly, I wouldn't mind if it never came up on the program either because it's a rather, um, it's an issue that a lot of people are uncomfortable hearing about or talking about. And, uh, but I, I mean, it's a, it is a subject that people need to think about because a lot of people do, uh, succumb to that temptation. Now, do I believe that there's something in our chemistry that makes it impossible for us to resist such temptation? No, I think that, uh, I mean, there is something in our chemistry that tempts us.

Of course, sexual desire, uh, of any kind comes about because of hormones and chemicals in our body that we didn't put there. So we can't help the fact that there are desires, but we are supposed to help, uh, you know, control our behavior. It's just like, we can't always, we can't control whether we're hungry or not if we haven't eaten, but, uh, we shouldn't steal food that isn't ours. Uh, we shouldn't eat if we should be fasting. So there's, I mean, there are chemical systems in our body that make us crave things. And, uh, these chemical systems are not bad because they are needed for the times when those things are appropriate.

Uh, if you never got hungry, you'd probably never eat and then you'd die. If no one ever had sexual drive, then probably no one would ever reproduce. So, I mean, there is a right use for these and a wrong use. Now the question is, is masturbation, is that a wrong use? Um, and that is something that is, uh, a very difficult question for the simple reason that the Bible doesn't mention the practice. And this is interesting that it doesn't because sometimes Paul gives long lists of sins in his writings, uh, which often have, you know, lists, you know, three or four or five sexual sins. Um, but he never really mentions masturbation, at least not by that name.

And therefore it's hard, hard to know, uh, how he thought about it. Now, I think most Christians feel that it's, it's, it's wrong and I can see why, because first of all, it's better to be self controlled. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is self control. So, uh, it's almost never the case that people would masturbate without any kind of visual images in their head. Uh, of course, if a man says, well, the only visual image I have is my wife, then I, it gets a little more difficult to call that sin. Uh, if you're visualizing somebody else who's not your wife, then of course that would, that would be as what Jesus said. If you look at a woman to lust after, uh, you've committed adultery in your heart.

It's, it's a hard call because some Christian pastors that I have known have answered one way and some have answered the opposite way. I mean, some say, listen, we need to have self control. We shouldn't do that.

Uh, so don't do it. I just, and, and they would even maybe considered to be a form of fornication. Other pastors have said, well, the Bible says nothing about it. It must not be, I mean, of all the times the Bible talks about sins and lists sins. It doesn't say that maybe it's not sin in itself.

Maybe that maybe it's possible to sin in association with it like your thought life or whatever. But but, uh, some pastor I've known have suggested that God just allows it, uh, for people who don't have a, uh, you know, a spouse or something. But I, I have never felt comfortable with it and I don't want to be legalistic because when you add rules to the Christian life that are not rules of the Bible gives, um, well then you become legalistic. But I'll just say I've never felt very comfortable with the idea of masturbation. I never thought that that'd be something that a Christian ought to do when they're walking in the spirit. They should be controlling that kind of behavior.

But that's, that's my opinion. I find a lot of pastors and spiritual men who wouldn't necessarily feel exactly the same way. Now, is it as bad as adultery? Um, well, there's very few things that are quite as bad as adultery. Now, some people say all sins are equal and that's simply not true. The Bible does not ever say that all sins are equal, but it does in the law affix, uh, various penalties to different sins.

Some of them have the death penalty, some of them have lesser penalties, some have a financial penalty. So it's obvious that since God's law is perfect and assigns just the proper penalty for sins and not all the penalties are equal, that the sins are not really equal. But that doesn't mean even any sins are good.

No sins or Christians should not be making excuses for any sin in their life. But there are sins worse than others. Jesus said there are weightier matters of the law than others. Uh, to, if the Jews didn't pay their tithes, that was a sin, but it wasn't as big a sin, Jesus said, as if they practice injustice or unfaithfulness.

Those are, he said, those are weightier matters of the law. So you know, whoever says all sin is the same, uh, uh, I don't know why they say that, but the Bible doesn't support it. So would masturbation be as bad as adultery? Like I said, there's very few things that are as bad as adultery. Um, even fornication is not treated the same as adultery in the Bible, but fornication is not a light thing. I mean, if an unmarried couple have sex, that's, that's not okay.

But the penalty for that was not as great as the penalty for adultery, which is the death penalty. I think instead of think, thinking, you know, uh, can I do this? How bad is it if I do it or whatever? I think we should just, um, I believe we should, if there's anything we have questions about, if we, I'm not sure if that's morally right or not, we should avoid it. Now, if we, if we stumble and I know a lot of men do, uh, then, you know, Jesus doesn't want us to be condemned, but I think that if we stumble and do something that we don't think is right, we need to repent and we need to try to walk in the spirit more consistently. But you know, I'm not going to condemn any man for, uh, doing something that I might think they shouldn't do, uh, but which the Bible doesn't say not to do. So I'm just gonna leave it between them and God. That's all that really, that's all I can honestly do with something like that.

Are you there? Yeah. What, what'd you say? Oh, uh, well, it seems like the medical field, uh, some people in the medical field say that, uh, if a man does not masturbate, eventually you will have a problem with his prostate later on that he almost has to. And I don't, I don't know anything.

Yeah. I don't know anything about those studies. I know that, I know that if a man has wet dreams, uh, that he can't be held responsible for that because what happens when you're sleeping is not your choice. But, and I know that maybe some, maybe that's something that's a release valve, but I, yeah, I'm not going to, I'm afraid I can't speak authoritatively on something that the Bible doesn't mention.

So whatever the medical people say, I can't, you know, I mean, I'm beyond that right now, but I do, and I'll just throw this in real quick. I have a niece and she's shacked up with her boyfriend and I told my daughter, she's, uh, she's committing sin, but everything's so free anymore. And uh, I was just wondering, uh, is that as serious as, uh, adultery? Well, somebody having a fornication. Well, like I said, the penalty was greater for adultery than for fornication in the Bible. Uh, but fornication was not a light thing.

It was still a sin. In fact, Paul said fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God. He said that in first Corinthians chapter six verses nine and 10. So also he said it in Galatians chapter five verses 19 through 21, I guess it is. And so Paul twice at least said fornicators will have no place in the kingdom of God.

Um, that doesn't sound good. And adulterers are mentioned in that list too. And a lot of other things are mentioned in that list. But, um, yeah, I would say it's a sin. Uh, I don't, I wouldn't worry about whether it's as bad as adultery or not. I just say neither, neither fornication or adultery are okay because both of them will keep you from inheriting the kingdom of God. Now the penalty for fornication in the Bible, uh, is that if a man slept with a woman who was a virgin and they were not married, uh, they, they had to get married.

So, and that's instead of the death penalty, some people might consider that like a life sentence. But, uh, but the truth is it is, uh, people should leave, uh, men should leave girls alone unless they're married to them. Well, I'm glad you explained that because I'm sure a lot of people struggle with that masturbation problem. I know a lot of people do.

In fact, I've heard that almost, almost all men at one time or not have. It's just human nature and there's nothing you can do about it because it's a part of being what it is. Lots of, lots of things are human nature that we have to be careful not to do. But you don't do it like anything else. You don't overdo it.

Personally, at my age, I'm working. Okay. Hey, George, I really need to go along. I can't hear about you. All right.

God bless you. Thanks for your call. Yeah, I've got my lines full. I don't think we can chat all day long. Let's talk to John from Garden Grove, California.

John, welcome to the narrow path. Hi. Hello, Greg. Yeah, I'm here. I'm well, thanks. I don't want to talk about the Sabbath with you.

Oh, no, no, no. I understand. I just want to say that. And I want to share with you great. Honestly, I've been praying for you and all the audience.

Okay. Jeremiah 31 31. God said he made the covenant with the House of Israel and House of Judah.

And Hebrew 8 11, I know, I mean 8 10. Paul, Paul from Jeremiah 31 31, he say this, for this is the covenant which I will make with the House of Israel and in the after those days, say Adonai, I will put my Torah in their mind and I will write in their heart and I will be their God and they will be my people. So it doesn't matter where you're from, or what denomination you are, if you're a Catholic, Muslim, Baptist, I mean, Protestant, Buddhist, if you want to be saved, all of us, including me, have to be grabbed into that House of Israel and the House of Judah in order to be saved because the covenant is made with them. It doesn't matter if it's made with Carlson or made with Catholics, okay? Muslim or Buddhist or anybody.

Just like if somebody moved to America. The covenant was made with the remnant of Israel in the upper room when Jesus was having the last supper with them. He made the new covenant with them. They were Israelites. They were of the faithful remnant. They were not the whole nation because the whole nation has never been the faithful remnant. And like Paul said, they are not all Israel who are of Israel. Only the faithful remnant are the true Israel. And yes, when you become a follower of Christ, you become part of that Israel and you receive a part in that covenant.

And as Jeremiah said, it's not like the covenant he made with the Jews at Mount Sinai. So I know you want us to keep the Sabbath, but yeah, we've talked about this. And frankly, John, I just, I don't want to be too critical.

I don't think you listen very carefully when I answer you. And that kind of makes me not want to have so many calls from you, but go ahead. Uh, call again in the future when we have more time. Lisa from Hillsborough, Oregon.

Welcome to the narrow path. Thanks for calling. Hi.

Hi. Um, I, this morning my son was doing his, uh, Bible reading and he read this, uh, verse to me from Proverbs. It says lazy people sleep soundly, but I don't missleads them hungry.

And I was trying to, I guess I had never thought of it. Of course, when, when my son is reading me something that we're both like, Hey, there's all these other verses and that sounds like it's saying if you're lazy, you're sleeping well, but there's all these other verses that talk about lazy. You don't sleep well.

Could you talk about that for a second? Tell me the verse number. I don't believe that's in Proverbs. The Proverbs says the labor, he says the sleep of the laboring man is sweet, but I don't know.

That's the one that I remembered. So when my son read me this, well, what did he read you? Tell me the verse number. Okay. I don't have the verse number.

I asked him what it was. I'm actually away from home right now, but I don't believe that's in there. Okay.

I've, I've taught through Proverbs dozens of times. I've never seen a verse that says lazy man sleeps well. Yeah.

Lazy people sleep soundly. Okay. Well, it might just be the, I don't know, maybe it's the, um, the translation he's using. Um, no, he must have just read it wrong.

Oh, he must've read it wrong. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

The Proverbs does not say anything positive about lazy people, but it does say that the sleep of a laboring man, I mean a diligent man is sweet and that he wouldn't say the same thing. All right. Yeah.

That's all we thought. Um, I was also reading, um, about when David took the census and I'm kind of confused about how, why was that so wrong and why was all of Israel punished? Why was it a sin for him to take the census? And then once he did, why was all of Israel punished instead of just him?

All right. Well, uh, Israel, uh, was punished because God was angry at Israel and it was God was angry at Israel before David took the census. It says that in second Samuel 24 one, second Samuel 24 one says, again, the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and he moved David against them to say, go number the Israel and Judah. Now, so God was already, uh, angry at them for some, you know, it doesn't say what he's angry at them for. I mean, the Bible's very sparse in some of its recording of some historical events, but there are plenty of times in Israel's history when God had plenty to be angry with them about.

But on this occasion he was angry. And so, uh, he actually moved David to number the people. Now Chronicles says Satan, uh, tempted David to do that. And I think both Satan and God were involved just like in Job's situation.

I think God allowed Satan to tempt him, but the, but why it would be wrong to number the people. I don't know, but both David and Joab knew that it was, and we don't, we don't know everything that was involved to this, a very sparse account. It doesn't tell us what the situation was that made David want to do it.

A lot of scholars think maybe David had a very bad motive for wanting to do it. Maybe he was just proud and wanted to congratulate himself over, you know, how big a kingdom he had. Sort of like Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel chapter four was proud of himself for having built up big Babylon. He said, Oh, I've done this by my great might. And then God struck him with madness for seven years.

Um, God doesn't like people taking credit for what he has done, but man's ego sometimes does. So that might've been what David was up to. It may have been that he is numbering them in order to see how much larger an army he could field. Uh, and, and thus because he was trying to increase military might rather than trusting in the Lord.

Uh, we don't really know. We, we're not told these are only guesses and, and scholars and commentaries can only guess or else they just have to say, we don't know. Um, so it's not a sin to take a census in Israel because God told Moses to take censuses twice and he did in the book of Numbers, but it was apparently wrong for David to do it. And probably because of something in David's own motivations, which we're not told about. So the story is told without explanation, which is a shame because it's not self evident to us why it would be wrong for David to take a census. But it did bring judgment on the nation, but that's because God had already seen Israel as worthy of judgment for some of their crimes.

Uh, we don't even know which ones those were. So this, this story does perplex almost all readers because it leaves so many of these questions unanswered and we can't answer them from the Bible. The Bible just leaves that a big question mark. But God knew and David knew and Joab, Joab knew, Joab tried to dissuade David. Why would you sit against the Lord like this? You know?

So anyway, I'm sorry I can't help you because that's just a subject the Bible doesn't answer for us. I wish it did. We're out of time. You've been listening to The Narrow Path. We are listener supported. You can write to us at The Narrow Path, PO Box 1730 Temecula, California 92593 or go to our website then narrow path.com. Thanks for joining us.