The Narrow Path Sept/02

It's time for Good afternoon, and welcome to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we are live for an hour each week of the afternoon, taking your calls. If you have questions that you'd like to ask on the air about the Bible or the Christian faith, or if you'd like to bring up something, a point where perhaps you disagree with the host and would like to balance a comment, you may call me here during this hour.

The number to call is 844-484-5737. I have an announcement about this Saturday in Temecula. If you live in Southern California, you may be interested in knowing that about once a month we hold a meeting on a Saturday night in Temecula, and we open that to the public. We have a Q&A session, and so this is what we'll be doing. This Saturday night, if you're interested in joining us this Saturday night in Temecula, you can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and look under Announcements, and you'll find the information about that meeting, time and place, and all of that. That's at thenarrowpath.com under Announcements. All right, we're going to talk, first of all, to Jim from Spokane, Washington.

Jim, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hi. Thanks, Steve, for taking my question. I sure appreciate you. My question—I have written down this on my phone, so this might be a little awkward. Hopefully not. But let me get to it real fast.

Okay. Outside of his sinlessness, was the atoning work of Jesus satisfied simply by his death on the cross, or his suffering the wrath of God in some supernatural means, or some amalgamation? Do we have insight on the nature of the precise penalty Jesus had to pay with clear passages in the Bible regarding this?

I'm not sure that we do have clear passages on the Bible. Of course, evangelical Christianity has always taught that when Jesus died, it wasn't just a matter of dying, but that he bore the wrath of God for us. Now, the Bible does talk about him bearing our sins in his body, which is not maybe exactly the same thing as saying bore the wrath of God. But we do understand that that was the nature of a sacrifice in the Old Testament. And they all pointed forward to Jesus, that the animal took on the guilt of the sinner and died in its place. But again, dying was the entirety of the wrath.

There's generally understood by Christians the idea that when Jesus was on the cross, because the sins of the world were laid upon him, that the intensity of the wrath was much greater than just that of a man dying. The fact that our sins were laid on him is certainly clear in the Bible. It says in Isaiah 53, 6, all we like sheep have gone astray, we've turned everyone to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. And so all our iniquities were laid upon him. It says in 1 Peter 2, verse 24, he says, who himself bore our sins in his own body on the tree that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness.

Of course, over in 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, it says that he who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him. Now, all those places suggest that Jesus took our sin upon himself and the punishment for our sin. And I think maybe it's generally assumed that because the sin of the world is a great amount of sin, that there was something especially intense about it. The fact that Jesus sweat, as it were, great drops of blood when he was anticipating the cross and was under great stress has suggested to many that he was not just simply facing death of a crucified man.

Not that that wouldn't be a terrifying thing in itself. Crucifixion was the worst imaginable torturous way to die, but we do know that there were many other Jews, many other people who suffered crucifixion, and we don't know that any of them didn't take it in a more stoic manner than that. It's almost always assumed that what Jesus saw as the cup that he was going to take was not simply the sins, but the wrath of God for the sins of the world. And this idea of, like I said, I don't know that we have any clear verses that answer your question, but there is a theme in the Old Testament of this cup of wrath that is spoken of many times in the Old Testament of the symbolism of a wine cup where a nation like Babylon or Edom or another nation says that their sins are filling up this cup, and then when it's full, it's the cup of God's wrath that is poured out upon them. Now there's actually that imagery in Revelation chapter 14 that says the cup of the wrath of the fury of God, which is poured into the wine cup of his indignation or something like that, and it's poured out on those who worship the beast.

Now it's the cup of the wrath of God, and wrath is certainly anger. So there are themes which I wouldn't be surprised if preachers have embellished them a little beyond what the Bible actually says, but which are sensible. They may not prove everything that the preachers say about it, but they tend to weave together to give that general picture, I think.

Thanks, I appreciate that. The reason I ask is, just still kind of looking into the three views of hell and what might have the most witness towards it, and it seems like if it's not clear that the suffering was the atoning work, then why would possibly, if it was true, that people would be sent to hell and suffer eternity for their sins when it seems to be clear it's the death. But you know, I'm just kind of in there, just... Well you are right about that. You are right about that the punishment for sin everywhere in scripture is said to be death, and Jesus, it was his death, his shedding his blood, that is said to have atoned for us. So whatever other factors may have been involved of a weight of guilt and wrath and so forth that he suffered in that time, yeah, those are not said to be the things about it that atoned for us, but rather death. He died in our place, like an animal sacrificed in the Old Testament. So you know, when people say, well, you know, if someone isn't saved, then there's this eternal burden of wrath of God upon them, which takes all eternity for it to be expended upon them, and it never finishes.

That is definitely saying things that go beyond anything the scripture says. I appreciate that. Thank you so much, Steve. Okay. Thank you for your call.

God bless you. Ron from West Hills, California. Hey, Ron. Good to hear from you again. You haven't called for a while. That's true.

Okay. Steve, I have a question about Romans, and I'm looking at the section chapter 8 verses 31 through 38, I guess 39, I'm sorry, that whole last section, which in all Bible translations is a section that they're called God's Everlasting Love. And all the translations and the commentaries that I've seen seem to indicate that this shows how God will never stop loving us, is the way we interpret it.

But when I look at this, I see almost a break, and this is why I'm calling up, maybe in how what's really happening here. So when we read verses 31 through 34, it talks about that who can be against this, if God is for us, who can be against us. And then it says, Who shall separate his own sons, how shall he not with him also free to give us all things?

I'm kind of going through the, who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God that justifies, so we see that here God is for us. This verse, who is he who condemns?

It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, and makes intercession for us at the right hand of God. You see, so in all of these, we see that God is on our side, and Jesus is on our side, and that's what I think he's establishing in these verses. But then I come to this next section, which causes me a little bit of problem, because it starts out by saying, who shall separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus? You see, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, from the love of God, Christ, no tribulation or distress in the names of bunching persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, sword, verse 36, as is written for your sake, we are killed all the day long, we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. Yet in all these things, we are more than conquerors to him who loved us.

And then I'm going to skip the last couple verses for right now, I want to bring them in. But when I look at this section, I'm saying, okay, now when we're talking about the love of Christ, and I look at these things that are spoken of here, Steve, how could the fact that we're going through tribulation, or we're going through distress, or we're in a concentration camp and we're being persecuted, and we're suffering famine, nakedness, and peril, sword, so what you're suggesting is the love of Christ means our love for Christ, right? Yes, because it seems that, and then it goes down to verse 37, we are more than conquerors. Now I know this sounds like, well, do we have a love for God?

Well, we know that before we became Christians, we were probably God-fearers at best. And then when we became united with him, the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts in Romans 5, through the Holy Spirit. So I'm looking here and saying, is it saying that we're going to go through these things because of our love for him? And then I look back at Romans 8, 17, and 18, where it says we're heirs, join heirs with Christ, and we will be glorified with him if we also suffer with him. And so I'm saying, I don't see how God could love us simply because we're going through it, as if God's love could be lost in the things we're going through.

I understand. So in other words, the things that Paul lists as things that will not separate us from the love of Christ, what you're saying is, who would have thought that any of those things would prevent God from loving us? If anything, he would pity us the more. And if we go through tribulations of what there's no fault in us, that would cause him to love us less.

So why would Paul argue that way? But he may be arguing that our love for Christ is capable of surviving those things. Our love for him, nothing can separate us from this love we have for him, even going through tribulation and so forth, because we're more than conquerors.

So I see your argument there. And could I just bring in verses 38 and 39 and then he takes it to a much higher realm because other than the things he describes there, he says, for I am persuaded that neither death, life, angels, prince, power, his powers, things present or things to come, nor height nor depth nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. And again, the way everybody interprets it, including myself, and I always share it this way, is that God will never separate himself from us or stop loving us in spite of whatever is out there, but I'm thinking that it's our love of God which is in Christ Jesus. If we are in Christ, then we will have a love of God that comes through him.

Because he does. And so these things then, again following on the earlier verses, would perhaps be saying that instead of us trying to make a case for God continuing to love us, it's saying that we can go through these things because of the love of God that we have in Christ because we are in Christ and that's my point. I'm asking about that. Yeah, I think it's a good point. I think it's a good point. I think it makes perfectly good sense, especially the first point you made. Certainly looks like you're correct about that.

So yeah, I think that's a good observation. Okay. Thank you.

That's it. Thanks. Okay, Ron. God bless you. Bye now. Victor from Denver, Colorado is next.

Victor, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hi.

Thanks a lot, Steve. I just have a quick question. It's sort of like the first question you had. So did Christ's suffering on the cross, did that sort of like occur in a way like out of time, meaning like if a sin that I commit in a week, did he feel that suffering even though it happened 2,000 years ago?

You know what I mean? People often talk about how Jesus died for all sin, past, present, and future. And I can agree with that statement if it means simply this, that the death of Christ is adequate for our forgiveness of all the sins we've committed in the past or the present or will commit in the future. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that the sins I've committed in the future are things that have actually happened or I've already been forgiven for, in my opinion. I mean, some people say it that way, but the Bible certainly doesn't say that. The Bible doesn't say anything about my future sins, you know. Don't worry about those that have been covered. I believe what it says is that the death of Christ is a sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

That would be mine, too. And the sins of the world were all—well, a lot of them were in the past when he did it, but a lot of them were still in the future when he did it. But though he died for the sins of the world, that simply means he made a blanket—God's given a blanket pardon.

But people, if they don't receive the pardon or they don't believe in it or don't act on it, they'll still live and die in the bondage they were in before. So I don't know about—I don't think Jesus was doing something outside the realm of time. I mean, he might have been, but the Bible doesn't tell us that he was, and I would have no way of knowing if he was. I understand it simply to be that God knew that Jesus was going to die from the foundation of the world. He's the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, and on the basis of that fact that there'd be a point in time when Jesus would do this, God forgave people like David in the Old Testament and other sinners in the Old Testament who repented based on what Christ was going to do—not because Christ had done it in some timeless area, but because God was willing to forgive them, as it were, on credit, knowing that Jesus was going to come and die, and likewise knowing that the death of Jesus would be covering sins of many people who would live later, too. But I don't know, I don't see a need to place it in some timeless realm, necessarily. We are told it happened on a particular day in his resurrection, another particular day three days later and so forth, but we're not ever told that these things happened in eternity. I think the one thing that would make people maybe support that idea would be the statement that Jesus is the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, when in fact he didn't get slain at the foundation of the world. But I think most Christians understand that to mean that from the foundation of the world, from the mind of God, it was as good as done, that he had already determined and promised and could not fail to send Jesus to die for our sins, and therefore it was a done deal from the foundation of the world, though he hadn't really done it yet.

So apart from that, I don't know the answer. The Bible doesn't really address that question in terminology that would give you a yes or no on the point you asked, as you asked it. I see, so then, did the suffering that he experienced, like, is it, was it worse, say, if there was 20,000, this is obviously not an accurate number, but 20,000 sins that were committed over the history of humanity versus, say, four? You know, that's what we were discussing with the previous caller today, and I don't know that anything in the Bible would suggest that.

Some people say that Jesus suffered infinitely because he had this infinite number of sins on him, and maybe in his mind or his heart or his something, there may have been an increased amount of suffering, but as far as the physical suffering of death, I don't know that there's anything more to it than that is in terms of his subjective experience of it, than if anyone else suffered death. Now it could be, we just don't have, we have preachers saying all kinds of things about this kind of stuff that doesn't have a, you know, specific biblical reference to support it. They may be right, I don't know if they're right or wrong, but, and the reason I don't is because the Bible doesn't tell me whether they're right or wrong. So to me, it's not one of the things I feel like I have to know, but, you know, I will say this, that if the wages of sin is death, then the wages of sin is death whether a person has sinned for 20 years before they die or sinned for 100 years before they die, a lot different amount of sin, but, you know, death is the same experience in a sense. I mean, everyone who dies, dies because of the sin they committed and the person who sinned 100 years doesn't necessarily suffer a worse death than the person who sinned for 20.

So to suffer death for sin doesn't in itself, you know, connect to the number of sins. I think that Jesus, there's a mystery in what God did with Jesus. Jesus is, in God's mind, a corporate humanity. Jesus the head and we are the members of the body of him. He's one man and when we are in him, we share in his, in his benefits and his status and so forth and therefore by being in him, we have experienced his death, but I don't know if his death was subjectively different for him because there were, you know, a million people who are benefiting from it than if it had been 100 million people.

I honestly don't know. There's no, again, these are questions that sometimes preachers make assertions about things for impact, but they just don't have the Bible on their side. They may not have the Bible against them. The Bible might not say one thing or another about it. So preachers sometimes ad-lib a little bit more than they should probably. I was just thinking like, gee, man, that sin and I'm like, ah gee, man, I just, maybe just a little worse for Christ on the cross right there after that, maybe not a little worse for him on the cross, but I think it hurts anyone who loves you if you sin against them. I mean, if you have a wife or a parent who every time you betray them, injure them, they suffer for it and anytime we sin, I believe that it, I think that Christ suffers in the sense that, you know, anyone who loves you, who is betrayed by you is going to feel hurt by that.

Not hurt enough to be angry and judge you for it, but it's not going to feel good. Okay, thanks a lot. That's a great answer. All right.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I don't think that, I don't think it's wrong to think, you know, wow, every time I sin it hurts Christ. I think it does, but it might or might, I don't know if it has anything to do with how much he suffered on the cross, you know, but you know, there's still an ongoing relationship here and so if I hurt my wife, it hurts her.

Even if it doesn't condemn me or lead to a divorce or something like that, it's just, it's just not what you want in a relationship. All right, let's talk to Nathaniel in Everett, Washington. Nathaniel, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Hi, Steve. I had a question related to, I don't want to say predestination, but I was having a conversation with a coworker earlier today who I think at best might be in the category of like an infant in their faith, but yeah, it was just there. We had a lot of conversations about, yeah, just Christian-related topics and one thing he was asking me today, and I just, I didn't know how to respond as sufficient as I wanted to, but he asked basically if God knows my future, he knows all things, and I guess if you're saying that if God already knows where I'm going to end up, which is in his perspective, heaven or hell, how am I accountable for, you know, the life I live if God already knows where I'm going to end up? Well, God knowing about where you're going to end up doesn't have any impact on your accountability unless he makes you do the things that will cause you to end up in those places.

If God knows that you're going to make the decisions in life that will lead you to live forever with him on the one hand, or he knows that you're going to make the decisions in life that will cause you to not live forever with him, well, then he knows it. But it's you that make the decisions. I mean, so for example, I know there are people who have fallen away after they become Christians, and you know, and God knows if I'm going to fall away or not, but I know I'm not, and so God knows I'm not too, because I've just, that's a determination I have, and I've had it for 60 something years, and you know, it's just, it's my choice. It's my choice to fall away or not fall away.

And I, and that's something I've determined not to do. I think a lot of people think that if God knows I'm going to fall away, what's the point of trying to not fall away? Well, God only knows what it is you're actually going to do.

You're actually doing it. If you do it and he knows you're going to do it, well then of course he knows it, but he didn't make you do it. If you, if you choose not to follow Christ, in my opinion, I think God knew that you'd make that choice, but he didn't make it for you. But see, it's not determined. It's not determined by him. It's determined by us. It's determined by our actions, and if God somehow has prior knowledge of what's going to happen, that's only, I think he only knows it as a viewer, as somebody, you know, who sees it and knows it, but he's not the one making the choice.

So if you don't choose to reject Christ, if you choose to follow him, then God knows you're going to be saved, and that's your choice, not his. Okay. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you very much, Steve.

All right. Now, I would say one more thing before you're gone, Nathaniel. You may be aware that there are Christians who believe that God doesn't know who's going to be saved and who's not.

Are you aware of that? There's a, there's a theological, theological camp, and a lot of my friends are in it, called Openness Theology, and they believe that God doesn't know who's going to be saved and, and who is. Now, it's a very elaborate argument from scripture that they use. I can't go into it right now, and I can't really go into the reasons that I don't follow that argument, but it's, you know, there is, there is a case for Openness Theology, too.

I just don't think it's airtight. I believe, I believe a more standard historical view of God's omniscience, but, you know, there are some people who think that because it isn't determined, God doesn't know. But that's not the point. That's not really our concern, what God knows or doesn't know about the end, if, if the choice I'm making today is going to be that which determines those things. If God knows what I'm determining, then that's his business to know it.

I can only know it by doing it. It's what I do that will make that choice. Listen, I need to take a break, but I appreciate your call. We have calls waiting for the next half hour. We do have another half hour, but we take a break at this point to let you know that the Narrow Path is listener supported, and that we, there are actually some stations that I was looking at that we may have to drop them at the end of December if, if we don't get more support from them.

I'm not, I'm just giving you that information. Maybe I'll post those stations so people will know who live in those areas if they want to know. But the Narrow Path pays for time on the radio and we're on a lot of stations and it's expensive. So if you'd like to help us stay on the air, you can write to the Narrow Path, P.O.

Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593, or go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and I'll be back in 30 seconds. Small is the gate and narrow is the path that leads to life. Welcome to The Narrow Path with Steve Gregg.

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Remember thenarrowpath.com. Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg, and we're live for another half hour.

If you want to call us with your questions about the Bible, you can call this number 844-484-5737, and if the lines are not all full, you'll get in line and we'll get to your call. A couple of things to announce. One is that this Saturday night, we have a meeting in Temecula, California.

If you live in Southern California, you may be interested this Saturday night. You can go to our website, thenarrowpath.com, and look under Announcements to get the details about that. Another thing that I don't think I've ever announced here is that in about a month, a little less than a month from now, I'm embarking on a road trip across the United States.

Not all the way across. We're not going all the way to the East Coast this time, but I'm scheduled to speak in quite a number of places between where I live in California and Indiana, actually. We've got stops along the way. I guess the reason I'm letting you know is that we'll be posting on our website those places that I'll be speaking in October in various parts of the country. Also to let you know, because it's early enough, it may be that you would want to arrange a meeting in your area. If we happen to be coming through your area, we might be able to set something up. If you do want to try to do something like that, feel free to email me about that possibility. We can let you know if we're going to be anywhere near where you are. You can email me at steveatthenarrowpath.com. That's steveatthenarrowpath.com. We're going back to the phone lines now to talk to John from Gilbert, Arizona.

We are going to be in Arizona among the places we're going. Hi, John. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Thank you very much for taking my call, and I just want to thank you for being so brave to be on the radio five days a week and fighting for God against the evil one. I appreciate that.

Thank you. I didn't know I was brave. Well, I think you are very brave. I enjoy it. Go ahead. I admire you. Although I'm not a Christian, I'm not a Jew, and I'm not a Muslim, I still admire you for sticking up for God.

And loving it. Very good. Well, I was kind of reading the Bible at one point in my life, and it said, the whole world marveled after the beast. I don't know what verse this is or anything. I think it's in the... Chapter 13 of Revelation. Yeah. Revelation 13.

Yeah. But I had an idea on this, and I thought, well, you know, you see all these people, and you turn on the TV any time, and they're on their cell phones and stuff, and I had this thing, and I just thought what you thought about it. The beast would be the internet, the false prophet would be the corporation, whether national or international, with the worship of mammon, which is just accumulated wealth, and the anti-Christ I put down, that would be the law, because at one point the law would be, you know, you really don't have redemption, or there's no forgiveness in the law.

You know, if you commit a crime, it kind of stays on your record forever, even if you do the time in a prison or a jail, and there's really no forgiveness, you know. So I just thought, what you thought about that beast being the internet, because I think, you know, people always, you know, you turn on the TV, and it shows some of these people on TV, you know, like that Erwin Baxter and people like that, and they show these pictures of these weird leopards with seven heads and stuff, and I just think, you know, and then like Hal Lindsey with Lake Great Planet Earth, and I wish I never would have, you know, I'm in my 60s, and I wish I never would have read that book, because, you know, I thought, you know, Jesus was coming back, you know, right away, because he talked about a generation that's 40 years, and the generation that sees the return of the Messiah, you know, after Israel became a nation at 48, so 88 and 7 years tribulation, so he'll be back by 1981, you better believe that, buddy, you know. Yeah, Hal Lindsey was quite wrong in almost all of his interpretations. I see almost everything differently. And I didn't really understand, you know, you use these words dispensationalism and Calvinism, and I really don't, kind of don't know, you know, what they mean.

I guess I don't want to waste your time looking, I can look them up myself, but. So what do you think about the beast being the internet, you know, I know people can get on the internet to, you know, access, you know, good things or that, but it seems to me the whole world's basically walking around with this, basically a portable computer, and it's almost as if they want their mind plugged into it incessantly to understand reality, and they can't even just stop and just look at the world the way it is, where, you know, God intended them to see it without this machine, you know, interpreting the world for them, you know? Yeah. Well, let me say that, let me say that they, I've heard that suggestion before, and dozens of other suggestions, by the way, and I personally think that, I think that I have an idea of the beast and the false prophet that would be perhaps better supported from the book of Revelation itself than that particular option, but I think most people believe the beast refers to a future individual, I don't necessarily believe so, I don't necessarily believe so, but the thing is, I mean, the most I can do is to say, you get a chance to put the idea out there, I can't really go into a complete critique without explaining what I think about the book of Revelation, but you can get that for free, you know, my website, everything's free, and we have lectures through Revelation, and I do talk about the beast and all that. I'm curious, to ask you a question, you read Hal Lindsey's book back in the 70s, I assume.

Yeah, Lake Lake, Planet Earth, Live on Welland, Planet Earth. Yeah, I read it too, I read those too, and also you watch some Christian TV apparently, but why are you not a Christian, did you, were you formerly a Christian, and you're not now? Well, you know, I was basically what they call a cradle Catholic, and you know, I was brought up in that, and I remember one time when I was 16, we were going to go to the church, and my mom didn't have us ready to go, and you know, and my dad was going to work that day, whatever, and I said, oh, she says, no, she says, look, I brought you up in that thing so you could make your own decision, whether you believed in the Catholic Church or not, I just don't believe in it, you know, if you want to go, I'll take you down there, but I gave you the chance to go through basically the, what they call the sacraments, like penance and communion, and... Sure, and so you just decided that you didn't believe it. Well, yeah, I didn't believe it, and then I kind of, when I was in college, I kind of got wrapped up with a bunch of people called Catholic Crusade for Christ, and had that little booklet, had like the little throne, and you put Jesus on the throne.

Four spiritual laws, yeah. Yeah, and then, yeah, that didn't work out, and I thought, you know, that's really silly, you know, and now, you know, the older I get, I've been reading a little bit of stuff, and I kind of like this one theologically called the Sanatana Dharma, the eternal religion, I think it's basically Hinduism, you know, and then I kind of... But what do you think about Jesus himself? What are your thoughts about who he is, or was? Well, you know, that's such a conundrum in my life, I just, you know, you read some religions where, you know, the Jewish people don't believe that, they believe he was, you know, the son of a Roman soldier in a harlot, and then you read about the Muslims believe that, you know, he was a, he was the miracle worker, but he was substituted when he, before he was put on a cross for the torture's sake, like... Right, right, they believe those, they believe those things, but what does the evidence from history tell us about him, do you know? Well, you know, I've been watching that show on TV about the Christians where it shows all the evidence on PBS, basically, you know, and I, you know, and they have written down in the history of the Roman emperor, like Pliny the Younger, and Josephus, and all these people they wrote about, you know, I'm sure it happened, you know, something happened back then, but I really honestly don't know exactly what to believe, because, you know, there's so many people, you know?

Yeah, but before I have to move along, let me just say that there's, you know, everyone in the world has an opinion about Jesus, but only one of the opinions could possibly be correct because he was only one historical character, and he wasn't a whole bunch of different things, he was not an avatar, he was not the greatest prophet, you know, before Mohammed, he was not, you know, he was not the son of a harlot, or the son of a Roman soldier, so, I mean, history doesn't suggest any of those things to be true, it's the Talmud that says he was the, you know, the son of a Marian Roman soldier, but, but the, I guess I would just say there is historical data about Jesus, and it all agrees with what the Bible says, actually, and the Bible, the gospels were written by people who knew him, unlike any of the other sources, Mohammed didn't know him, and, you know, the Hindus didn't know him, but the people who wrote the gospels did know him, and have you recently read the gospels through to see what you think about Jesus? You know, I started reading the Bible once, and I went through pretty much all the Old Testament, you know, and I really liked that better, and then I tried to read into the New Testament, and I just found it really confusing, and I just kind of understand it, you know, I just, I tried, but I just, you know, I just didn't really... Well, I'll tell you what, is Gilbert near Phoenix? Yeah, it is. Okay, well, I'll be speaking in Phoenix in a meeting on the 29th of this month, and it'll be listed on the website, and I'll be mentioning it again between now and then, but if you are able to come out to that meeting, I would love to meet you, and maybe we could talk more. Oh, well, thank you very much, it's very kind of you. All right, I have a lot of people waiting, I need to try to get their calls in, but I'd love to have more conversations with you. All right, well, thank you very much, and have a nice day, and God bless you.

Thank you, John. Thanks for your call. Okay. Bye. Bye now. All right, let's talk to Donny from Detroit.

Donny, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Yes, hello, Steve, God bless.

Thank you. I'd like to talk and get your opinion about salvation, salvation and principalities, putting those two words together to get an understanding of the things that must be done through faith, through the fruits of the Spirit, that gives us the salvation, and I'll say that Jesus, I listened to the last caller, but I want to, you know, tell in on that, and I'll say, Jesus is a Savior, God is the Creator, He leads Jesus, the Holy Spirit. Okay, so Donny, can you tell me what your question is, specifically, because we have a lot of people waiting, and not very much time. My question is the opinion that you have of one of the things that I have said. About the principalities and salvation, well, salvation is the restoration of a sinner into a right relationship with the Creator, again, through Christ. In other words, a sinner is a rebel and a deserter from the king. God has made Jesus the king, and anyone who's not serving Jesus is a rebel against the king, and you know, that can't go well for anybody when the king comes and judges everything. So a sinner who's smart will want to get on good terms with the king, but this requires coming back into a proper relationship, and the only kind of proper relationship between a king and his subjects is for the subject to be totally loyal, totally submitted, totally obedient to the king. Anything less than that is not a right relationship, and there's a lot of Christians who actually do not even pretend to be in that kind of relationship with Jesus. They say, I'm saved because I have a relationship with Jesus.

They don't seem to understand Jesus is a king, and you can't have a relationship with a king that means anything of value or is anything else than rebellion unless it's a relationship of obedience. So coming into obedience and a right relationship with Christ and God is what salvation is. Now the principalities and powers, I don't see them having anything directly to do with that, except for principalities and powers is a term that is used two different ways in the scripture—well, actually three different ways in the scripture. In Titus chapter 3, Paul says that we should be subject to the principalities and powers.

Titus chapter 3, verse 1. But there the term principalities and powers refers to the earthly rulers, because that's what the term means. However, the term is also used in a spiritual sense of angels and of demons.

And I'm not sure which principalities and powers you're thinking of. I don't think the angels have an awful lot to do with our salvation. They may have more than I know. The Bible does say about the angels in Hebrews 1.14 that they are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who are the heirs of salvation. I don't know exactly what they do before we're saved toward us, but who knows, maybe they protect people who are on their way to Christ, and God knows they're on their way to Christ. But you may be thinking of the demons, because in Ephesians 6, probably the most often quoted verse about the principalities and powers, it talks about the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places and the principalities and powers, so it's talking about demonic forces. Now, I don't think the demons have anything to do with salvation except that they don't like it, and therefore they would oppose it, they would prevent it if they can, they are deceptive, and they resist people coming to the knowledge of the truth. So if you're wondering what the salvation and the principalities and powers have in common, I don't know what they have in common, but I do know that the principalities and powers of the fallen ones apparently would resist people being saved. But if a person wants to follow Christ, then Christ will be able to give them the ability to break through.

Some people aren't that interested in being saved, and therefore the principalities and powers are able probably to distract them sufficiently to keep them from being saved, but that's because they didn't have the kind of determination that's required to come to Christ in the first place. Let's talk to Eddie from New Haven, Connecticut. Eddie, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Thanks, Steve.

How are you today? Good, thanks. Steve, my question is from 2 Chronicles 7, pretty famous, if my people, which are called by my name, would humble themselves and pray, turn from their wicked ways, that is still valid today, correct? That's not a temporary promise of God? Well, when he says, my people, he's of course referring to Israel, or Judah, because Judah was his people, and then when he says, I will heal their land, of course that was the land of Israel. So it's not entirely clear that he intended this to be a promise to anybody other than Israel. On the other hand, it does tell us a great deal about God's character and the conditions for favor with him that people would seek. So I think that even though it really is just a statement about Israel, and in that sense it's not relevant anymore because Israel, the nation, is no longer God's people, because Jesus has called all of the remnant of Israel to be his followers, and they are now Christians. But does it apply to Christians? Well, the problem with this is that Christians don't have a land.

Christians are all over the world. Israel had a land that was their own. Christians don't have a land that is their own, and therefore to say, I will heal their land, we'd have to extrapolate from that that maybe he means the land that we live in, even though it's not ours. It belongs to a mixed multitude of believers and unbelievers, and maybe he would apply to our land in that sense, but it's not a direct connection.

Well, the point I was going to make, Steve, I was talking to a Jewish friend of mine, and he said, if you read the Torah, and you see right there, it says, it's my people. Now the Jewish people were God's chosen people, the righteous remnant, and he says, look what it says there. It says, if we turn from our wicked ways and humble ourselves, it says he will hear from heaven. He will hear us, and at the end it says he will be our God and we will be his children. So he said, Ed, show me Jesus there, we'll have to go through him to get to him. He says, God's promising me right there that he will be my God and I will be his child.

And he said, you could cut that up any way you want, you're not going to get through that. Well, I would ask him. I would ask him, in the days of Elijah and Elisha, when Israel was worshiping Baal, let's just say, would this promise apply to them?

Probably. Yeah, if they would turn to God and repent of their wicked ways, but what would that have to say about the relationship with Elijah and Elisha? They'd be followers of Elijah and Elisha, because they were the spokesmen for God.

If they were among those that were persecuting Elijah and Elisha, well, they can't be right with God and still be persecuting his prophets, much less that could they be right with God and be persecuting his Messiah. At any given time, the Jews who turn to God must certainly turn to him on the conditions that his spokespersons, his prophets and so forth, have required. And if they reject the prophets, then they're not accepting God. And Jesus said, whoever rejects me, rejects him that sent me.

So if they turn to God, but they don't turn to Christ, well, then they're not really turning to God, because Christ was sent to them as the Messiah. He told them, God wants you to listen to me. In fact, Moses told them that. In Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 15 through 18, God says that he's going to send another prophet like Moses, and he says, and you shall listen to him, and whoever doesn't listen to him will be destroyed from among the people, God said. So here's the prophet Jesus, the one like Moses that was sent, and whoever doesn't listen to him, Moses said, will be cut off from the people. So the Jews don't have any special avenue to God that doesn't include the Messiah any more than the Gentiles do. Messiah is the savior of Jews and Gentiles. And yeah, if the Jews would turn to him and follow him, follow Christ, and love God and love the Messiah that he sent, then they would be certainly accepted as his sons and daughters.

That's exactly what the Bible says. But as far as healing their land, it's a little late for that, because the land is no longer the habitation of God's people anymore. I mean, God's people are those who follow Christ, and most of them don't live in a particular country.

They live all over the world. Some live in Israel, actually, but some live in America, some live in Russia, some in China, some in Nigeria, and so forth. So God's people don't have a land anymore, except the heavenly city that Abraham looked for, it says in Hebrews 11. So I think the Jewish guy you're talking to is thinking that he can go to God while neglecting the Messiah. And I don't think that at any time in Israel's history, people could turn to God and still be rejecting his prophets. And Jesus is the prophet that Moses said should come, and those who don't follow him will be destroyed from among the people.

So I think he's got a very false hope there. I appreciate your call. BJ from Round Rock, Texas.

Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Yes. Hi, Steve. Hi. I've got a question about 2 Corinthians chapter 1, verse 19. I've actually got two questions, but I'll just ask one today. No, okay.

Go ahead. Okay, so yeah, 2 Corinthians 1, 19. The synod structure, I was looking in the ESV and the NET, some of the more literal translations and the synod structure is very strange. It is. It is a very strange sentence.

Yeah, yeah. The Son of God Jesus proclaimed among you by all of us was not yes or no in him. It is always yes. And I was like, what does the it refer to? Does it refer to Jesus Christ? Does it refer to who was proclaimed among you? Other versions I read that weren't so literal would say, but in him was yes. And other versions would take liberties and say the message was yes or Jesus has always been yes. Well, if you look at that verse, it says all the promises of God in him are yes.

And I think the context is that Paul is saying, Paul is telling them that he had told them he will come and visit them at an earlier point. And he failed to do so. He failed to come. He was put off by certain unforeseeable crisis.

And now there were some people in the church of Corinth saying, Paul's not reliable. He said he was going to come and he didn't come. And so he's saying, you know, therefore, when I was planning this in verse 17, he says, did I do it lightly or the things that I planned, did I plan according to the flesh that with me there should be a yes, yes and no, no. Now that's a very strange way of speaking a yes and a no that way. But what he seems to be saying is, do I say yes when I mean no? Is that what he's saying?

I say I'm going to do something. Do you think I didn't mean it? Do you think I really meant I'm not going to do it?

That's what he's saying. He says, no, with God in Jesus, everything is yes. That is everything God says, he means it. It's not, he doesn't say yes and mean no. And then he says, yeah, all the promises of God in Christ are yes. And so in a sense, he's saying yes means more or less confirmed, you know, the things I said are confirmed and I don't mean no when I say them. And God doesn't mean no when he says things either. His promises are confirmed as true by Jesus. And I believe that's what Paul is saying, though I agree with you. The grammar is very strange that he would, all three of those verses, actually that whole section where he talks about the yes and no, he's talking differently than most of us would. But you can tell from the context he's saying, he's saying I'm not untrustworthy and neither is God.

In Christ, God has confirmed and proven his yeses or real yeses or not noes. Okay, yeah. That is pretty much what I got from it.

And from you saying the grammar is a little strange, I read some other commentaries and they seem to say that too. So I feel better about not being able just to pin it down exactly. Yeah, yeah, you can feel about normal, yeah, feel about normal about that. You're fine.

Yeah. I need to move along. I only have a couple minutes left. Let's talk to Deborah from Dallas, Texas. Deborah, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling. Hi, Steve. Hi. Thank you very much for your teaching. I learned a lot from you.

Thank you. Anyway, yesterday you were talking about the dinosaurs and whether the earth was millions of years or 6,000 years and all of that. I was taught that where it says the earth became void, not that the earth was void when he created it, it became void is what it says in the Hebrew. And so that tells me that he didn't create it that way, not the earth anyway, but anyway.

That's what they call the gap theory, yeah, and they believe that God created the heavens and the earth, Genesis 1, 1, billions of years ago. And then there was this big gap and in verse 2 it says, they say, it says the earth became formless and void. Now the word became is the word was. It's the simple word for was in Hebrew, and it's found about 4,000 times in the Old Testament and almost always means was, but there are some times that it has the sense of became. And so some people think that Genesis 1, 2 is one of those very rare times when that Hebrew word means became, when it usually means was. The translators… Okay. Yeah, the translators… Also, there's three earth ages and three heaven ages. No, no. I'm sorry. I don't go with that. I know who you've been watching.

His name escapes me, but people ask me about him all the time. No, the Bible doesn't talk about all these ages. That's called the gap theory, and some people do believe it, but the Bible doesn't teach it.

It would be wrong to say the Bible teaches it because it's something they read into the Bible that most people wouldn't find. I don't find it when I read it. Let's see here. I'm just about out of time here. Cheryl from Phoenix, I don't suppose we could do you any good in about a minute's time. Hi. Oh, hi. Hi.

Oh, you can hear me? Okay. I just wanted to… I felt like the Lord was nudging me when I heard you talking to that guy a few calls back where he said… Okay, we have 30 seconds. 30 seconds, please. Okay.

Well, I just want to let him know, keep seeking because it sounds like he's searching, and if he just keeps seeking, he will find, because the Bible tells you, seek and you will find, and it only takes the faith of a mustard seed, that's what I wanted to tell him, just don't give up, keep seeking. All right. You just got it in just in time. Thanks for your call. You've been listening to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. We're on Monday through Friday at this time, and we're on many radio stations across the country. If you'd like to help us stay on the station you're listening to, you may want to help us pay the bills.

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