Forgiveness After Hours

This is the Truth Network. Coming to you from an entrenched barricade, deep in the heart of central North Carolina, Masculine Journey After Hours. A time to go deeper and be more transparent on the topic covered on this week's broadcast. So sit back and join us on this adventure. The Masculine Journey After Hours starts here now.

Welcome to Masculine Journey After Hours. We are very glad you're with us. We are visiting a topic from boot camp, but it's different than other topics that we've usually done because this is one that came from the prayer cards. We saw really consistently across the prayer cards from everybody was putting them in the prayer boxes just on the topic of forgiveness, either forgiving themselves for something, forgiving others, in some cases forgiving God.

They felt like God, you know, held out on them, abandoned them, took somebody away from them, something like that. Sometimes all three, you know, it's just there was a lot of forgiveness to be had. And so we said that's what we're going to use as a topic for this week. And so we're going through and we're playing clips around the topic of forgiveness and sharing some of our stories. And so where we pick up, Danny, it's time for your clip.

Yeah. My clip comes from a movie called October Baby. I have not seen the movie, so I can't give you reviews, but I've seen the sequel November Baby.

I don't know what that is either. Yeah, they got the prequel September, September, baby. But the storyline is that you've got a young lady who's found some stuff out about her life that she's not real crazy about. She found out that she was she's a survivor of an abortion. And, you know, her original parents didn't didn't want her. And then her adoptive parents had kept some stuff from her. So she went on this trip with her friend. She's really trying to find some closure in her life. Just feels like her whole life is a lie. She ends up at this scene and she's talking to a priest. They're sitting in a cathedral talking and they begin to talk about forgiveness. And I love you'll hear a little bit about what she's going through.

But but the the heart of this and what struck me is how the priest lays this out for her so we can play it. Talk about it on the other side. Just say what you feel. My parents aren't really my parents and my real parents tried to abort me. I'm angry at my real mom for not wanting me. Why didn't she want me?

What's so wrong with me? This cathedral was built in 1893. Named for St. Paul the Apostle. Magnificent. He wrote a letter to the church at Colossi and said, because we have been forgiven by God, we should forgive each other. In Christ you are forgiven. And because you are forgiven, you have the power to forgive. To choose to forgive.

Hatred is a burden you no longer need to carry. Only in forgiveness can you be free Anna. Forgiveness that is well beyond your grasp or mine. Forgiveness that you can't find on a trip.

Or even in this cathedral. But if the sun shall set you free, you will be free indeed. Yeah, there's so much in that that could be unpacked. But like it's already been shared by Andy and some of them, we all have our stories. There's a story behind every face you ever see. In my own life, I went through some traumatic stuff. Coming into adulthood at 18 and married, had a child on the way.

Not necessarily in that order. Life just kind of took a left hand turn. I love what Harold shared before the show. God said I know the plans I have for you said the Lord in Jeremiah 29 and 11. And they don't always equate to my plans. Or I may have been in his plan and then jumped out of the plan.

And so when life began to unravel and my wife, my ex-wife took my daughter to New York for four and a half years or whatever it was. And then my grandfather died. Being the kid that everybody picked on growing up, I just naturally assumed God joined the party.

Because we talk about it a lot. At certain ages, you don't know how to process things because you don't have that capability. And it wasn't until I came to a place in my life where just nothing else made sense. And I was just ready for a new way of walking that God put people in my life to follow me in different things. And everybody began to talk about, you've got to forgive people and anything. And I'm like, I don't want to.

And I think in Andy's clip in the first show, the God character talking to Mac says, it's not because you can't, it's because you won't. And that's where I found myself. And it wasn't until I let Jesus in and began to unravel this stuff over years.

And it's still unraveling. I think it's an eternal onion, I think. That layer after layer and you find this and that. And Sam, you and I had a conversation one time about you find these things and they're like kudzu roots.

Because they have these long, you start pulling things up and it runs over here and it runs over there and you uncover different things. But without the Master Gardener, Jesus, you're not going to be able to do any of this stuff. And that's kind of what I loved about this clip was that the priest just lovingly lays into her, look, you can't hold on to this stuff.

It's going to eat you alive. That's what's happening. And when you do let go, there's a wonderful, what is it in one of the clips we play, there can only be peace on the other side of war. And that's what you're entering into is the war of battling through these things that are misunderstood, that are taken on and getting to the other side of that. And then peace rules your heart.

Yeah, that was First Night, Sean Connery. Yeah, because he talks about there's a peace that you can only know on the other side of war. You have to have something that is that devastating to appreciate. And we've been in a war our whole life. It's been a war for our heart. The enemy's been battling for it.

God's been fighting for it. Right. And at times it really appears that the enemy's going to win. And at times we do let him win. Right.

And one of those places we let him win is holding on to things that we should forgive. Right. Not because the person deserves it. I mean, God says they deserve it. And I believe God don't. But it's not about them.

It's about being obedient to God because of what he's wanting to do either with them, through you or in your heart for sure. Right. What he's trying to accomplish because he can multitask like no one's business. And so even though I can't, he can't.

And so he wrote the book on multitasking, I think it is. Anyway, I was not planning to say that. Harold, you had some stuff you would add on this topic.

Yeah. Forgiveness is not something that's a part of my vocabulary. I mean, since I created the world, why should I forgive anybody?

Just because you were there when it was created, Harold. Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

I didn't. Forgiveness is, I think, a very tough thing for most people. Pride has been mentioned already in the program. And I think that's a huge issue for us. But to me, unforgiveness is like a flesh-eating bacteria. You don't want it or need it, but you can get it. And so forgiveness is, to me, the only way to get rid of that flesh-eating bacteria. Yeah.

That's a good point. So forgiveness is something that gets you on the other side of the pain you're suffering. For years, I carried around a lot of unforgiveness for my dad and his drinking problem. And it was only after I became an adult and began to realize that he wasn't as in control as I thought he was, that he was actually suffering, and I forgave him.

And our relationship took a whole different turn. So for me, forgiveness is something that I try to keep in mind that nobody owes me a debt. I owe God a debt. Thank you, Harold.

Michael, is there something you'd like to add on this? Well, forgiveness was definitely one of the things heavy on my mind and my heart when at boot camp and even now. Everything you guys are talking about, I just relate wholeheartedly to. And I'm still going through that battle. But through you guys just reminding me and bringing me back into the Lord, I think that's what I've been missing.

I've been trying to forgive, but without Jesus, without the Lord. And I'm just very thankful that Harold was brought into my life, which brought you guys into my life, because now I feel like I can head towards that healing process. That's awesome. We're very glad to have you with us.

It's great. Thank you for sharing. Terry, anything in your heart? I had mentioned something about pride earlier, and Harold brought that blight again. But after thinking about it, I remember it was twice when I had to forgive myself about something, because I felt like I had failed with the life of my family, and that I was doing something and other things slipped away from me, and I just kind of shrunk in myself. And in order for me to move forward with what God called me to do, I had to get over that thing. I had to forgive that thing that bothered me.

And it was nobody but me in the circle, so it was my fault, is the way I saw it. But I could not go any further what God wanted me to do with this. And both times, it was dealing with a men's ministry, and it was my kids' circumstance with my two boys, where I thought I was doing this, and I forgot about them.

I felt this small, but until God spoke to me, and he said these words twice in my life, and they never altered. He said, if you do what I'll have you to do, I will do for you what you can't do. And I had to forgive myself to do what he asked me to do, because he was dealing with the things that I could do nothing about, but I had to keep the line told in his direction, and trust him to deal with the other things that was totally out of my hand.

So forgiving myself that's twice was the only way I could get further into what God wanted me to do. For those who can't see the video, the small he indicated was his fingers about a half inch apart. Yeah. Well, thank you guys. I appreciate that.

I'm going to go to a clip now. It's a snippet from a song from, gosh, the late 80s, early 90s. It's from Don Henley, back before the Eagles got back together. And it's a song called Heart of the Matter. And in the song, he's singing about a breakup of a marriage, a relationship, a relationship with a woman that he was very intimate and close to, and he's trying to make sense of it.

And so where we kind of picked this up, it was instrumental for me when it was happening, when the song came out, and I'll talk about that in a minute. But I want to play this for you, and then I'll come back and read what the lyrics said, but then I'll talk about why I chose this. More I know, the less I understand All the things I thought I knew I'm running again I've been trying to get down Through the heart of the matter But my will gets weak And my thoughts seem to scatter But I fake it to cry Forgetness, forgiveness Even if, even if You don't love me anymore So what he's singing there, and he sings pretty clear, but it's sometimes hard to pick up in lyrics, but he says, The more I know, the less I understand All the things I thought I knew I'm learning again I've been trying to get down To the heart of the matter But my will gets weak And my thoughts seem to scatter But I think it's about forgiveness Forgiveness Even if, even if You don't love me anymore And as he's singing that, and the reason it was so instrumental for me at the time is I was going through a divorce with my first wife, and there had been some things done on her side that were quite painful to me, and I really could sit there and be justified in feeling anger, justified in feeling like I had an ax to grind against her, you know, all these things, all these things that happened to me. I'm sure I did some horrible things to her as well, you know, relationship-wise. But this song just kept always reminding me, regardless of what I'm feeling, all this anger, all this, it really gets down to forgiveness. And you have to be able to get to that place of forgiveness so you'll never move from it, right?

And so that really helped me in that relationship and other relationships since then. But beyond just a male-female intimate relationship, boyfriend-girlfriend, that kind of thing, I'm talking about relationships, because every relationship, typically when they break up, whether it's a friendship or something, there's going to be some type of anger there. There's going to be some type of betrayal. There's going to be some type of this place where you feel wronged. Otherwise, you wouldn't be breaking that off, right, or whether it's an employer or whether it's whatever. But it's always the same kind of scenario. But regardless of how I feel, and the feelings matter.

I'm not discounting that. It's going to get down to the question, will I forgive? Because if I don't forgive, I'll never move past that place. Yeah, and if you're waiting for your feelings to change before you ask for forgiveness, or forgive, rather forgive, it ain't going to happen. The feelings never – I don't know that they ever come first. I think they're always a byproduct of you stepping out and forgiving.

They're after your action. Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of – I don't know if you've ever heard Nikita Koloff talk about when his dad quit smoking, right? That he kept asking God, help me quit, help me quit, help me quit. And after about 15 years of that, he said, well, when you quit, I'll help you. And it's the same way with forgiveness, in my opinion. When you forgive, I'll help you. It's like it said in your clip, I think it was Andy, where he says, I'm right here with you.

Right, yeah. He's going to help you when you step into it. But until you step into it – It's like everything. Faith without action – faith without works is dead.

Forgiveness without the act of forgiving is dead. It's not going to happen until you bring it in. I mean, God, again, that's just like the first step into crossing the Jordan. It's all those things. He wants us to take action. That step of faith, it's like raising your hand and saying, I'm here.

I hear you. Now it's your time, but I did the first thing. Sometimes he does require us to make that first move, or I guess he always does, really. That's what was so instrumental, and I know there's mixed emotions about things sometimes, but being in a 12-step program brought me to a place where, because the first five steps are kind of what we were talking about. Number one, you admit you're powerless.

Apart from me, you can do nothing. And then the second one is acknowledging there is somebody who can help me, and I'm not him. And then you go into asking him, help me.

And then he says, okay, I will as soon as you do. And you move into recognizing things and then the act of acknowledging and forgiving and that kind of thing. One thing I wanted to make a point to is I think some of these wounds and things that we've done wrong, life doesn't seem fair to some or greater than others. Some are easier to forgive. Some of them are like, well, that was like just throwing a grenade in my life. I can't forgive that.

You blew up my life. But this quote, I think I've used it on here before my phone died, but basically it's like unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. And we get hung up on that, but there's something within our will. It's that spiritual pride. I think you're talking about, Terry, is that it's hard to let go. It's hard to let that and humble ourselves. I think the first act of forgiveness is humbling ourselves. It's pride that keeps us from that. And I think that it's pride, but it's also this feeling of I want to have control over something. I want to be able to control something in this scenario, especially if you've been really unjustly wrong and you really didn't do much in that. At least it feels like you're doing something about it because you're holding on to the anger.

But it doesn't do anything but just poison your own heart, to your point, Andy, and it's not healthy to be there. And the other thing that is fascinating is you threw, that was a great line about throwing, you threw a grenade in my life. As soon as you said that, I couldn't help but think that from my standpoint, the Justice Department threw a grenade in my life based on when the dealership collapsed and they came collecting. Oh, my goodness, you don't ever want to face the IRS three times before you want to face the Justice Department.

But you really don't have a face or a person that you can't forgive. It's just like it's the Justice Department. Or maybe it's the armed services or whatever. You really have up against it but this is where you are and they threw a grenade in your life. But then fascinatingly, God won't let, he disrupts you with other things that remind you of that wound. Like just this morning, seriously, and as you're saying, all of a sudden unraveling right before my very eyes. But anyway, just this morning – I saw my life flash before me. There was an adjustment to my bank account that didn't make any sense and I thought, that's them. They're in there again. They're doing stuff because – and just riled me all up. Like I was all fired up and like right this minute I'm going, oh, you got me, didn't you?

You got me. They were still – and I'm sitting there going, yeah, how do you forgive a faceless entity? But, hey, let it go, man.

I don't know. They were doing what they thought was their job and I got to let it go and God showed me how to do it. I got to step into that or he's not going to be in it.

But it's real because believe me, this morning I was dealing with a major grenade. And I think that that's the enemy's ploy is to either say it's pointless, right, or you're giving in, you're giving up or whatever the case is or it's too late, right, in the case of somebody that's passed away that you're called to have some forgiveness for. He'll let you try to believe, well, it's too late. You can't talk to that person. Or if it's a faceless situation, right, who do I even try to forgive there, God?

I mean, the country? I mean, what do I do? And so I think it's part of the enemy's ploy is just to try to keep us in a way to where we won't forgive. Jesus says it pretty clearly when he's asked how to pray right in the middle of that, you know, forgive others, right, as whatever you know from the Lord's Prayer. So anyway, go ahead, Danny. Well, the illusion or the lie that he portrays, and I just kind of like Robby, real time unraveling here, is that the illusion is that God gave me a memory. But Satan uses it because if he can keep you focused on it, he gives you the illusion you can do something about it. But the hard reality of this is that anything that happened beyond right now, I can do nothing about. You can't change it.

You can't unexplode the grenade. You know, it's done. And the reality of it is that what God wants to teach you a lesson from it so you don't repeat it. But the enemy wants you to live there because if I relive all those bad relationships over and over and over again, I'm not focused on the here and now.

And I can't get to forgiveness until I'm moved to the here and now. And that's kind of the delusion that we live under and, you know, it'll probably happen to me tomorrow. But that, you know, something happened, you know, because we talk about it a lot. This feels a lot like this. Right.

And it's not. Yeah, I think for me a lot of times the enemy gives me the memory or the poke at something. And as long as I take that and I turn that to God and say, God, okay, what do I do with this?

Then all things are possible. But if I just let his poke continue to make me mad, continue to take me down rabbit trails, you know, wherever it's going to take me, right, then the enemy wins in that scenario, you know. And so as we talked about at boot camp, we talked about on the air a lot, you know, always checking under the hood. You know, something puts me in an emotional place, sad, angry, you know. Quickly it's like, okay, first place you should turn is, God, what's that about?

Right. Because the enemy's got a plan for it just as well. He's wanting to take you derailed down a really dark road. Just one more thought, too. It came to me, all this real-time stuff, because I got to thinking, you know, we know Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Well, how did he do it? Well, he was the first one to get booted out of heaven. Where is the origin of unforgiveness? The enemy had to – that has to be it, that he got kicked out of heaven. Yeah, I'm sure he's not forgiving God on that one. Exactly. I mean, I don't – there really isn't any evidence of it even happening in the garden other than him passing it through original sin. But you think about that, it's like unforgiveness is this simple. Do I want to be like – and you can make this for any sin, but do I want to be like God or do I want to be like Satan?

Do I want to forgive or do I want to hold the grudge? Yeah. Speaking of real-time stuff, and I may not have time to get into this, but, you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, forgiving ourselves, forgiving others, forgiving God. And the enemy keeps coming after that.

You know, I've had a situation where my grandson has been given some medical results that's not favorable, you know, for him having to be on oxygen the rest of his life, and he's seven. And the enemy has been trying to pull me to be mad at God, right? You know, God didn't create COVID, you know, that caused the long-term COVID, which is what they think it is. You know, God didn't do any of that, but the pull is still there.

God, why didn't you do anything, right? And so I'm fighting that fight well knowing that that's not the answer, but it doesn't stop the enemy. And the closer that is to your inner circle, the harder that fight is to have, because, you know, God can do things. And God is probably doing things in the midst of this.

I have every confidence he is. In my heart, my grandson's heart, my daughter's heart, he's doing stuff, but it's things we can't see. Dr. Carson gave me some unbelievable wisdom on that, that we have this theology that God is in control, but actually God is in charge. And, you know, he set certain things into motion, and that's the way that the thing works, like gravity. You jump out of the plane, it's going down. And somebody jumps out of the plane, as far as COVID's concerned, and off it went. He's still in charge. But it's a fascinating thing to think about when you let that roll around in your brain, like, oh, I do think he's totally in control, but actually he's in charge.

I like that, isn't it? Again, it's trying to put words to something you can't really describe. Well, thank you for listening. That's it for this week. We will talk with you next week. Go to masculinejourney.org.