Why God Hates Unequal Measures, and Answers to Your Questions

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And then we're going to go to the phones. Why does God hate unequal weights and measures? Why are they called in scripture a toiva, an abomination, something that is detestable?

Why is that the case? So what do you mean by unequal weights and measures? So in the ancient world, you would, let's say you're paying for something with your bartering, right? So you're going to give this amount of silver for this amount of grain. And so you're going to measure it out, right? So if you were dishonest, you'd use unequal weights and measures. So you would have it that when you're weighing out how much you're getting, it's short.

We need more there to balance it out. When you're weighing out how much you're giving, you're shorting the person. So it was dishonest, but it was dishonest in a deceptive way. You were claiming to be ethical. You were claiming to do the right thing. It's one thing to just steal. Someone breaks into your house, they're a thief. What they did is sinful and wrong. Don't steal. It's against the Ten Commandments.

But they weren't given the impression of honesty and ethics. And that's something that God hates. It's one reason that Jesus so strongly rebuked the religious leaders and said you strain out a gnat, but you swallow a camel. So you're going to have a drink, and you put that drink through a strainer. It's a little gnat.

You strain it out, and you swallow a camel. And I just produced a video that we'll get out as soon as we can where I flatly and openly rebuke American Gospel and Chris Rosebrough for putting out a video downplaying the severity of the sins of Martin Luther. And claim when I quoted him, I was misquoting him or taking him out of context. And these were not things he needed to repent of to be in right relationship with God and have eternal life, etc. It's utterly reprehensible.

Why do I bring it up? I bring it up because these very same people will blast a charismatic leader for a sin that is one hundredth the severity of Luther's. And has had one thousandth the effect of Luther's sin because the Nazis used those and put a lot of his strategies into practice.

And his words fueled, on a larger level, fueled a bunch of the German anti-Semitism because of the great influence of Luther over the centuries. So it is such a hypocritical thing. It is such a wrong thing. It is such an unethical thing. And God hates it.

Let us use the same standard across the board. There are people calling on me to call out evangelical leaders. I'm not going to mention their names right now. Well-known evangelical leaders.

Non-charismatic, anti-charismatic. They've been challenged on points before. Or you, pastor, you covered up for a pedophile that abused his own family, went to jail, and you still covered up for him. I say, Dr. Brown, you need to call this person. These are things that happened in years past. And they're saying, you need to revisit this. Call this out.

Right? And I'm still looking for a way for things to be dealt with justly in-house and rightly in-house because I'm not involved with the situation. There are people wanting me to call out some of the hypercritics as wolves. Dr. Brown, why don't you call them out? Well, wherever I can confront privately, I'm going to confront privately. It's the same thing with charismatic friends, I believe, in error. I'm going to try to be consistent.

The point is, you'll have the hypercritics. They will attack you. They will verbally maul you for claiming that the Holy Spirit spoke to you when they say the Holy Spirit doesn't speak or you drove a demon out of someone. We don't have authority to do that today and that's not real. Or you're flaky in this area.

Right? Or you're telling people if they give it to your ministry, God will bless them. They'll verbally maul them, mock them, call them all kinds of names. And then someone in their own... No, no.

Explain it. That's detestable. That's detestable in God's sight. And just like a lot of the flakiness and false prophecy and junk in our charismatic circles is ugly in God's sight, is wrong in God's sight, is inexcusable in God's sight, is unjustifiable in God's sight. So is it wrong and evil and unjustifiable when you bear false witness about people and when you use unequal weights and measures. May the Lord bring us all to righteousness. We will get that video out as soon as we can. 866-34-TRUTH.

We will start, let's see, in Illinois with Efren. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. First of all, I just want to say good Shabbos and you're an amazing teacher. Thank you. Good Shabbos.

With that being said, I want to say that I believe that you're guilty of unequal measures, which is a double standard. You have one standard for the natural seed of Israel and another standard for the spiritual seed of Israel. When the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt, it was Abraham's spiritual seed, or just Egyptians, and some were his physical seed. And that group of people was called, wait for it, the congregation. The congregation in German is called the church. The congregation in Israel are the same. That's wrong. That's wrong.

Gemeinde is congregation, church is kirch in German. So I know we'll go back and forth on this, but let's do this. Let's invite God into the conversation, because I know you believe in miracles. If I'm wrong about this, here's what I'm pledging.

I'll give all my money, all my time, to Dr. Brown's ministry. But if you're wrong, you can give all your... What am I guilty of? Help me. Help me understand. What am I guilty of? Where am I using unequal measures?

Please help me. You have a different, a double standard, Dr. Brown, for the spiritual seed of Israel and for the physical seed of Israel. And people have tried to make it clear to you, but you refuse to see it. So all I'm saying is, let's let God come into the conversation. Father, we welcome you. We welcome your truth. Father, open our eyes. Uncover my eyes so I can behold wonders from your teaching.

We welcome you, God. What am I doing wrong? Where am I guilty of unequal weights and measures? Please explain. I have the slightest clue what you're saying.

Honestly, I have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Well, so I got a degree in Jewish studies. I can tell you that throughout history there were conversions.

Correct. People converted and became lawkeepers. You yourself might be a descendant of one of those people that converted.

Of course. Well, some converted somewhere, otherwise they wouldn't have white skin. People can't come into Israel. People can't be part of Israel. And they can only be part of spiritual Israel. And that doesn't give them the right to live in the land. And that's unjust. It's unjust in God's eyes. If you convert, let's say you're a Gentile, you convert to Judaism, right? You have a right to live in the land.

Go for it. Great. It doesn't make you say you're not saved. It doesn't make you born again. The only way I could live in the land is if I deny Yeshua as my Lord and Savior.

And this is a sin upon Israel to be saved. That's wrong. That's wrong.

I've been working against that for decades. That's wrong. I did a conversion.

Dr. Brown, I've done two conversions. I went before the Jewish board and they asked me to deny Yeshua three times. So don't tell me that's not right. I didn't say it's right. I never said it's right. OK, listen here. We got a bunch of people on hold here. I don't have the slightest clue what your issue is with me.

Honestly, if I knew, I'd respond. I don't have the slightest clue what your issue is. No, I. I think it's 100 percent wrong. I am dogmatically 100 percent against the policy in Israel that says that.

If you are a Jew, born Jew, parents, grandparents, Jewish, you become a follower of Jesus, that you are now no longer a Jew and cannot get citizenship in Israel. That is 100 percent wrong. I've always fought against it. All my messianic Jews have fought against it. Some of my colleagues over the years have been the very ones whose cases went up to the Supreme Court and they were denied citizenship. It's 100 percent wrong.

The Nazis would have killed us as Jews. 100 percent wrong. As for Israel not recognizing your conversion, if if you say I'm converted to Judaism, but I don't renounce Jesus, well, then you haven't converted to traditional Judaism. So it's not a true conversion in that regard.

But should a Jew who believes in Jesus be granted citizenship in the country? Yeah, of course. 100 percent. All right. Anyway, let me get on with the callers. Friends, if you think I'm wrong, tell me. Tell me where.

Tell me where. Lord, help. Help Ephraim there sort these things out. We welcome God in the conversation, right? All right. Let's start fresh here.

Carl in East Tennessee. I imagine this call is going to be a little a little easier to follow. Go for it, sir. Well, there's a lot to be said. A lot to be said. I think I would like to start with I think I would like to start with some scripture here in First John, chapter two. Verses 21 and 22. The scripture reads in the Authorized Version, the King James Bible. I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it and that know lies of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the Antichrist that denies the Father and the Son. Now, Luther, in his book on the Jews and their lives, was coming against the spirit of Antichrist and the satanic religion of Judaism, not against someone's race. So, just hang on.

So it was against the practice of Judaism. Hang on. And you sir, defend the spirit of Antichrist.

Was it right for him? You are an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what you are. All right. So.

Wow. Thank you, Carl. May the Lord bring you to repentance and salvation. You just heard from an anti-Semite who says Martin Luther was justified. Martin Luther was justified in calling for the death of rabbis if they would teach Judaism. Martin Luther was justified in calling for the burning of Saigon and the destroying of Jewish homes. Martin Luther was justified in being the John the Baptist.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. One reason we're shouting on the front lines about the rise and tide of anti-Semitism is because of junk like that. Because it's rising more and more in the church.

And I was just, we had a break coming up and I was going to respond, but I was not going to give air time to an anti-Semite in that way. But it's a shame, friends. It's going to get uglier. And those that really don't have a solid relationship with the Lord, really grounded in the word, they're going to fall prey to this. We're going to see it in front of our eyes. And I tell you what, as it unfolds, as you see it more and more, you'll see circles that hold to replacement theology in different ways. Modernism today is not fulfillment of prophecy.

Okay, we can differ on that, but you'll see blatant anti-Semitism rise among many of them. Just watch. Just watch. 866-34-TRUTH. Let's go over to Jim in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Oh, hey, Dr. Brown, great to talk to you. I saw the American Gospel conversation. You showed a lot of poise there.

That was awesome. So this is what I'm wondering about Joel and the whale, a story I've heard from my youth. But, you know, I've heard that the whale basically, you know, he was in Joppa, he was heading to Tarshish, then the whale grabbed him for three days, then it sped him up on dry land. So what I've been told, and I actually read it even in some commentaries, I'm not going to mention which ones, but that the whale sped him up, and that presumably he was like in Assyria, the people saw it, and it was this great sign because God was the fish god.

But when I looked at it on the map, I mean, Nineveh is a crank in long ways from the shore. And the other thing is, I can't imagine that he would be in the best position to go straight to Nineveh after being three days, three nights on a whale. So what I'm curious is, I mean, could it have been, because the Bible says after the whale sped him up on dry ground, it doesn't determine where it is.

It says then the word of the Lord came to him the second time. Could it be that he didn't like just go straight from the whale's belly to Nineveh? That's my question. Yeah, so first we don't know it was a whale, right? Well, right, whatever it was. Yeah, exactly. Right, right, large fish. Right, but it doesn't say, I mean, there are some that will say, you know, that Jonah was still, looked like he had just been in the belly of a fish. Right. You know, and he's like, oh, like who is this guy, like walking zombie and, oh, arba im yom ben Nineveh nech pach, yet forty days Nineveh will be destroyed.

They're like, okay. But we don't know that. So there is no information. We don't know where the dry land was. You're a hundred percent right in saying that we don't know where the dry land was. And could it be that he was, that, again, Tarshish, there's debate about exactly where it was, but what's clear is it's the opposite way from Nineveh.

You know, whichever way he's supposed to go, he's going the opposite way. So where is the dry land? Did he have to travel back, et cetera? You know, are we thinking that the fish swam for three days? You know, how, what's the nearest dry land to Nineveh?

Right. So for sure, it's not like the fish just plops, like flies out, lands in the city of Nineveh. I'm like, well, there goes Jonah. So now Jonah has to, however he gets there, it doesn't tell us. It's not part of the story.

So you're a hundred percent right in raising questions about that. Thank you, sir. Appreciate that. Yeah, and the roundtable, Sam, Jim, Justin, and me, I think everyone was gracious and cordial with each other.

I did too. Yeah, and hopefully people can benefit by hearing this interaction. Okay, God bless you. Thank you. Thank you, bye. 866-34-TRUTH. Let us go over to David in California.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hello, Dr. Brown, how are you today? Very well, thank you.

I listened to the four-hour conversation you had and thought it was fantastic. But I wanted to talk about the gift of discernment or discerning of spirits because of the Mike Bickel thing. I've seen a lot of comments on other sites about how you guys didn't pick up on this and blah, blah, blah, you know.

And, of course, it was filmed before all the allegations came out. And I was just wondering, I don't know how much you worked with Mike, whether Sam was on staff there for seven years, how do you miss something like this? In my experience, being a Christian, I've come across people that my spirit would immediately say, uh-uh, there's something not quite right about them.

And later on, it's been proven out. And I'm just wondering how, if, I don't know how much, again, I said I don't know how much you were involved with Mike Bickel. I've heard him speak several times.

I've never, you know, I just was never really impressed with him, you know, positive or negatively about him. So I'm just kind of wondering, I'm seeing that, you know, how do people miss people living in sin? I don't know the extent of Mike Bickel's, the allegations or what they're saying has gone on. So that's my question. How could you have missed it if you were even into that position to have been able to discern it? Yeah, let me try to respond.

It's a great question. I knew Mike. We spent hours together in different settings. I did some ministry for him.

We hung out here and there. But I was not really close to Mike as Sam was, considering I'm a best friend, spending thousands of hours in prayer together with him. So it was even more devastating and shocking for him.

And of course, we both regret that we spoke so well of Mike in that video. But that's reality. That's the fact.

You know, just put it out. That's that's reality. What's interesting is that Justin Peters and Jim Osmond never said a syllable about Mike being guilty of sexual sin. It was more questioning the alleged prophetic revelations and other things and some of his teachings. So it's not like they discerned the sexual sin any more than any of us did. No one was accusing him of that.

He seemed to be exemplary from what we knew. I've had plenty of times over the years, plenty of times, where I sensed something was wrong with someone or Nancy sensed something was wrong or said just don't work with this person. Plenty of times I've been preaching and sin is revealed and I call people out or how to sit with a leader and confront them privately. I mean, this happened over the decades. So why we didn't pick things up with Mike, I can't tell you. I don't know.

It's a valid question. But I said on the air the other day that if you serve the Lord long enough over the decades, you will find that there was someone that you were tricked by. There are husbands and wives live in the same home and the husband is a serial killer and nobody in the family knows it. Or the wife's been having an affair for ten years and nobody in the home knows it and it's a Christian family. And think the disciples were side by side with Judas.

Yeah, that's correct. Eating with him, with him, going on missions with him, healing the sick, driving out demons together. They didn't get that it was Judas. They had no clue. They were shocked as anybody. So all I can say is that we're human beings and God does not reveal everything to us. I wish it would look a couple dear, dear friends probably listen to this broadcast today.

Dear, dear friends, their community on the 21st day of corporate prayer and fasting, very close friend, the daughter committed suicide. And they know. Yeah, I mean, utter tragedy.

And, you know, they're in agony over it, as you would understand. And, you know, why didn't we have warnings? And I said, you know, God doesn't show us everything.

I wish I wish I wish. Well, I don't wish I trust God. I trust God. We can't handle everything.

But look, I wish I had known better about Mike. There are plenty of people I don't work with. I don't announce it, but I just don't work with them. Tons of people I don't work with because I don't like their morals or I find their teaching suspect or I won't accept an invitation to do something with them. Lots of them.

That's the case. But Mike, I really looked at as an exemplary guy. And if you read his books about Jesus or listen to his teaching on Romans, you find it rich.

If you hung out with him, he'd welcome you preaching on repentance and holiness and spend hours and hours in prayer and worship. So wish we'd seen it. We didn't. What can I say? I'm just being honest, not trying to make an excuse.

That's reality. The Holy Spirit does not reveal everything to us. And I had no scriptural indication that he was in heresy.

A scriptural indication that he was living a double life from everything that we understand. It's a fair question. That's my honest answer. We'll be right back. Hey, friends, Michael Brown here. My delight to serve as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. We are living in such urgent times today, friends, that all of us are in the line of fire. There's a target on your back.

There's a target on my back. If you simply seek to live by biblical values or just conservative moral values, you could be canceled. You could be cast out. You could be put down.

You could be silenced. I'm here to say, friends, that I am not about to be silenced, and I don't believe you are either. It is time for us to stand up. It is time for us to say enough is enough. It is time for us to push back in Jesus name, not fighting the way the world fights.

No, overcoming evil with good, overcoming hatred with love, overcoming the flesh with the power of the Spirit, overcoming lies with truth. And that's what we're here to do on the line of fire broadcast. And, friends, it's not just a broadcast. It is a movement of people around the world. God's people standing up saying enough is enough and saying, Lord, here we are. Send us. Use us. I want to urge you today to join our support team because we are on the front lines together and we are literally touching people around the world in America, in the nations, in Israel. And together with your help, we're going to amplify this voice and spread this movement around the globe. So I encourage you go right now to thelineoffire.org. Thelineoffire.org. Click donate monthly support.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Dear friends, I encourage you to hold our hands up so we can reach others, we can help others, we can equip others. We are actively at the top of our lungs pushing back against anti-Semitism and against wrong theologies that paved the way for anti-Semitism. At the same time, we are reaching the Jewish people with the good news of the Messiah and we do it with your help. It's a sacred investment.

It's a sacred partnership. So join together with us. Go to thelineoffire.org. Click donate monthly support. Join our support team. Together, friends, we are making a difference. All right. With that, let's go over to Henry in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Not far from me right now. Welcome to The Line of Fire. Hey, how are you doing, brother? First of all, I want to thank you for having a chutzpah for standing up for what is right. I mean, you have taken the bull by the horns and moved forward. Now, this whole thing about false balance is abomination unto God. You're right. You know, if you those two those two individuals that called her that were pretty rough on the air, they were not balanced before God. That's why God wants a balance, because we they would say where they wouldn't be acting like that.

And second of all, I mean, it's true. God wants us to have the whole thing is I'm leading to a question. God wants us to have a balance for it's like a rowboat here. If you if your left hand is nothing but faith and your right hand is nothing but works, you'd be going in circles all the time.

Yeah. But Paul says, I'll show you my faith by my works. And that is what we have to have. You, sir, are showing your faith by your works and doing what the Great Commission says to do. And for you. Yes, you're going to be attacked.

That's a prime example of what we just saw. And just keep moving forward in Jesus name, doing the great work that you're doing, because it's going to happen. God has put you there to do a great work. And I am proud of you. God is God loves you. He's doing great work in your life.

I thank you so much for what you're doing. That's why I called to tell you that don't be discouraged in any way, shape or form, because we're living in the last days. This is post tribulation. We're living in the last days and that's going to happen. But it was I was doing something God just pulled on my heart to call you and tell you this because you are the prophet in this area.

And just stand. You're like Elijah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Henry, listen, I I appreciate you taking time to call Chutzpah. That's a good Yiddish word.

It's kind of a boldness and audacity. And, you know, we're all we're all servants. Right. We're all just servants. Nobody is anybody.

There are no superstars in the kingdom. We're all just servants seeking to honor him and be obedient. And look, once you understand as well, you just do it right. To me, it's not like I have courage.

No, it's what you understand as well. What you do, but do it. The lion is roared. Who can but fear the Lord God has spoken and prophesied.

So it's the name is three. So for any of us, once you know what's right, you have to stand. You have to do it. You have to honor the Lord. And that's our goal. And yes, Jacob James said, I'll show you my faith by my works. So let us be true disciples in in word. And indeed, thank you, though, for being gracious and calling. I appreciate it. Eight, six, six, three, four, eight, seven, eight, eight, four.

Let's go to Andrew in New Hampshire. Welcome to the line of fire. Yeah. Hello, Dr. Brown Shalom. I presently belong to a seventh day Adventist church, and I totally agree with their, you know, their positions on the law and the dietary restrictions, but troubled by their attitude or their position on replacement theology, where they believe that the Jewish people were cut off when Christ was crucified. And Steve was stoned and they were cut off and that the gospel was then given to the Christians and that the fulfillment of prophecy will be through the Christians, not through the Jewish holy people in the end times. So I almost take that as a little anti-Semitic. They also they they almost venerate Luther, who, from what I understand, was his writings were anti-Semitic as well. What is your what are your thoughts on that?

Right. Well, at the end of his life, Luther was blatantly anti-Semitic with horrific writings. We'll have a whole video coming out renouncing American gospel and Chris Roseboro for downplaying the sins of Luther, trying to not give him a pass, but put him in a certain context as if they could be better understood in that way. But most Lutherans follow Luther's earlier teachings, which were not anti-Semitic. I won't get into a whole discussion about seventh day Adventism with you.

I'll just say this, Sarah. I find it bizarre that the Sabbath, which was given as a sign to Israel, specifically to Israel, is is is that remains. But Israel doesn't remain as a people in God's sight. You know, according to this theology, it's quite bizarre when you think about it, because that was the sign between God and Israel. So I basically say, well, the church is now displaces Israel. The problem, of course, is that God is against the theology.

The word is against it. God has promised Jeremiah 31 versus 35 to 37, that no matter what Israel does, he will preserve Israel as a people. Speaking of the physical seed of Israel, you said in Psalm 105 that it's an oath, it's a covenant, it's something God swore.

It's forever. It's for a thousand generations that the land belongs to the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Speaking of the physical seed, the word is quite clear that if God scatters, no one can regather. So the only reason the Jewish people are back in the land is because God has regathered.

And there are purposes that remain for Israel. Jewish people need Jesus to be saved like everyone else. There is no salvation outside of the cross. There is no salvation outside of the blood for Jew or for Gentile. So that we must preach plainly. And I hope you have that understanding that salvation comes through the blood of the Messiah, not through our good works, but through his sacrifice.

We put our trust in God and receive forgiveness and then lead new lives as a result of that. But that theology always, excuse me, often opens the door to anti-Semitism. It does not recognize God's purposes for Israel, the God who preserved Israel, the God who brought the Jewish people back to the land, the God who was waiting for a Jewish Jerusalem to welcome back the Messiah. When people reject that, they often come to anti-Semitic conclusions.

Many times it's very, very ugly. Have you read my book, Our Hands Are Staying with Blood? No, no, I haven't. Yeah, if you're able, Andrew, if you're able to get it, Our Hands Are Staying with Blood, get the 2019 edition.

It came out in 92, never went out of print. The 2019 edition, Our Hands Are Staying with Blood, I believe it will answer a lot of your questions and impact you as you read it. Thank you for calling. God bless. Great.

Thank you very much, Doctor. All right. There's another time we can discuss Seventh-day Adventist distinctives in areas where I have strong differences, but not the time for that right now, and that's not what the caller was calling for. Let us go over to Elijah in Newport, Virginia.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. Forgive me, my voice is a little shaky.

I've never called into a radio program, so I'm a little nervous. Hey, I'm a senior in college right now. Yeah, by the way, it's just just the two of us chatting. So be at peace, man. Be relaxed. Oh, you're all good.

My phone's a little quiet, so I couldn't hear you for a second. But anyway, my question, I watched the four hour roundtable discussion with you and Sam Storms and Jim Osmond and Justin Peters, and I saw you guys wrestling with this tension of this question of what do we do with people that seem to truly believe the gospel, yet build their ministries in a way that doesn't seem to be built on the gospel, and that teach some probably false or dangerous things. How do we categorize those people? And I was wondering your thoughts on First Corinthians chapter three, if that can maybe add a helpful category to that discussion. In First Corinthians chapter three, Paul talks about how, you know, like some people say I follow Apollo, some people say I follow Paul, doesn't really matter. But he talks about on Judgment Day, each person's work for how they built on the foundation of Christ will be revealed for what it is. It'll be revealed with fire, just the quality of each person's work. And it says that if what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If what is burned up, the builder will suffer loss, but yet will still be saved, even though is one only escaping through flames. My interpretation of that is that people can build their ministries on something other than Christ, even while still believing in Christ, still technically be saved, but they won't receive a reward in heaven because their work and their ministry will be burnt and exposed for being false, in a sense.

I was wondering if you share that interpretation and could that be a helpful category to apply in those conversations, maybe talking about people like Benny Hinn or even some of the weirder guests that your friend Sid Roth brings on that you talked about in the discussion. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. That's referencing Benny or Sid, they stand before God and will give account to God as well as Justin and Jim and John MacArthur and me and all of us and you. But that category, 100%.

Absolutely. That's why I don't use the term false teacher, false prophet, false apostle unless I'm convinced that person is not a believer. Because a false apostle, according to 2nd Corinthians 11, 13 through 15, is a servant of Satan. And a false prophet, according to Matthew 7, 15 through 20, is a wolf in sheep's clothing. And a false teacher, according to 2nd Peter chapter 2 verse 1, is someone who introduces damnable heresies. So if the person is a true believer and their emphasis is off, their message is off, there's error, but they're still a true believer, yeah, for sure.

Or it could be different. It could be you built your whole ministry on pride, right? Or you built your ministry on self-aggrandizement. Or you built your ministry on attacking and tearing down others with unequal weights and measures. And on and on it goes.

I mean, the story cuts all these different directions. 100%. That would apply that that is a saved person, but what they did, their efforts, their works, their ministries will go up in flames because they were not built rightly on the truth of the gospel or on true Christian morality or on true godly motivation, etc.

And that when everything is tested, go up in smoke. Yeah, that's 100%. I think that's okay.

Yeah, because when I was listening to that conversation, I just kept thinking about that verse. Like, I think that could be a helpful category in this nuanced discussion. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm with you on it totally.

Like I said, it explains my position. And then all of us, you know, someone said to me, called in very respectfully on Tuesday, Dr. Brown, I love you, but you're going to have some straw mixed in with your gold. It's like you tell me anybody that's only going to have perfect gold, silver, precious.

No, I haven't met that person yet. But let's get low. Let's look to the finest firework in our lives. Let's be teachable, humble, correctable so that Jesus can be glorified. Thank you for the call. It's 634 truth.

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Call 1-800-771-5584, 1-800-771-5584 or online at T-R-I-V-I-T-A, TriVita.com. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again, it's Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us. So I'm looking at my screen and there's a caller on my screen as Christ, spelled by Christ, Christ, a person someone's talking about.

So I had no idea what that meant. I just got a text from Brandon Kimber of American Gospel saying this is Chris Roseborough that I very specifically spoke against earlier in the broadcast. If I knew it was him, it would have brought him on earlier.

I just recorded a video earlier that we'll release as soon as we can where I take a tremendously strong issue with Chris. But in any case, sir, your name was not clear to me on the board. If I knew it was you, I would have brought you on the moment I saw it. What's on your mind, sir? Well, let me start by saying I'm definitely not the Messiah or an anointed one in that sense. So I apologize for whoever put the typo there, but I'm not Christ.

Same here. I wanted to clear some things up. Number one, I've read your book, Christian Antisemitism, Confronting the Lies in Today's Church, and I find it to be a very important work. And I do recommend it for people in combating antisemitism within the church. And I've been an outspoken critic of the antisemitic forms of white Christian nationalism. And in no way do I undermine the absolute truth that Luther in his antisemitic rants legitimately sinned against the Jewish people. His antisemitism is actually simple.

In no way do I deny that fact. So I want to make it clear that we are on the same page when we agree that Martin Luther's statements, his antisemitism were simple. What I disagree with was how you were using that information, particularly in your roundtable conversation, and pushing for a demand that Osman and Justin Peters say that Luther was a false teacher. I would note you just said that a false teacher is a term you don't use, which basically makes me ask the question, do you believe Luther is in hell today because of his antisemitism? I don't know. I don't know how a converted person could say what he said.

But let me ask you some questions first. God is his judge. So everything in that video, you downplayed what he said. You said, I quoted him out of context. I did not quote a syllable out of context in his writing against the Jews. You never mentioned that he called for death penalty of rabbis. You downplayed how the Nazis used this literature. I've got quote after quote after quote from Holocaust historians, Lutheran historians, talking about how Luther's thought helped shape Nazi ideology.

Kristallnacht, they did exactly put exactly into practice November 9th exactly what Luther said to set the synagogues on fire, to destroy Jewish places of business. And you said he crossed the line into sinfulness. And I took the things out of context. And as long as you praise the Lord's Prayer, you know, he doesn't have to repent of those things. I find that reprehensible, sir. Utterly reprehensible. And to the way you've attacked me and attacked others. And then it's like downplaying Luther. I find it to be just being totally candid with you.

I don't want to jump on you when you're calling so graciously, but totally candid with you. The perfect example of straining out a net and swallowing a camel. Perfect example of religious hypocrisy and a double standard. I find it reprehensible. And I disagree with your conclusion.

And if I can explain why. I've already said that what Luther did was sinful. And this is where the issue of anti-Semitism gets a little bit more complicated than the way it's presented. And as somebody who has debated publicly people who are anti-Semitic today and claiming Luther as their champion in doing so, over and again I find that there's a false dichotomy that is made.

The Nazis were overtly anti-Semitic on a racial level. Luther's condemnation of the Jews historically, when you read it out, had to do primarily with theology. And his conclusions that he drew in calling for the burning of synagogues and the killing of rabbis, that's the part that's absolutely sinful. And the Nazis picked up Luther's writings without making the distinction that Luther was making a theological distinction.

And the belief that the prince and the king of the Holy Roman Empire was to protect the church from heresy and from threats to the Christians. And so he had that same similar rhetoric against Islam and the Turks. But you don't make that distinction. And so as a result of it, we're not talking about the same kind of anti-Semitism. I absolutely reject anybody who would say that a Jew is somehow less than a human being or that he deserves death by simply being a child of Abraham.

That is reprehensible, and no Christian can make that claim. At the same time, we must note that Judaism absolutely in its current form is the direct theological descendant of the Pharisaical religion that had played an important part in crucifying Christ. It is an aberrant form of Judaism. It is not the Judaism of the Scriptures.

That being the case, we have to see it as a photo that it is. Judaism, as Paul refers to it, is Judaism. When he speaks of Judaism, that's what it's speaking of, the time the term is used in the New Testament. You said on the video that Jews today, you know, are implacably against the gospel.

The average Jew doesn't even think about Jesus, doesn't even think about the gospel, and probably has Christian friends and probably thinks Jesus is probably a decent guy, whatever. There's this mischaracterization, but you're saying that a Christian could not say that a Jew should die simply because they're a Jew. However, a Christian could say a Jew should die for teaching Judaism on a theological basis. A Christian could say that.

No, I don't agree with that. That's where I think Luther crossed the line, because you've got to remember, Luther's a man of his time. No, no, he was not a man of his time. Paul Johnson, another historian, said he went way beyond his time in what he said and did.

Way beyond his time. Again, I come back to the historical context. This is in the context of the Holy Roman Empire where there is no distinction between church and state. And this is where I say that Luther sinned. Now, as far as did he need to repent of it, I don't think Luther was aware that what he was saying was sinful. I think he was incited by what I consider to be really bad anti-Semitic literature of the day that mischaracterized what the Talmud and the mission is and other things were saying. That same awful, really gross anti-Semitic literature exists today and incites a lot of people against Judaism.

One of the things I loved about your book is that you took the time to unpack and give us a different perspective on how to understand and to interpret the Talmuds in a way that doesn't make them into the demonic view that people are putting forward in anti-Semitic literature. I think Luther came across that and I think you posit that theory in your book and I agree. But the reality is this, is that none of us are capable of repenting of all of our sins and many of our sins remain blind to us. That's the point that I was making. It's not that he shouldn't have repented, it's that he didn't repent because I don't think he saw that what he was doing was wrong.

He was legitimately incensed and basically bashing... We could do the same thing if you were raised in a racist home and thought it was fine to own slaves. Sin is still sin, the fact that we don't see it or recognize it. People are seduced.

God told me to divorce my wife and marry this lady that I fell in love with and it's just adultery and demonic deception. Chris, I want to make an appeal to you. I don't watch your stuff, but I saw you debating on a position where I agreed with you. I don't know how the link came up.

And I thought, OK, I need to see that because everything I know about Chris is negative. And he mocks me. You call me Sergeant Schultz or whatever.

I've got like, I don't know, 10 million words in print. I'm answering questions for decades trying to be as explicitly clear as what the apostle obfuscation, whatever name. I think it's stupid. I think it's petty. I think it's divisive. I think it's even slanderous and unhelpful. So I now I hear you call and you're speaking against anti-Semitism and all this like, all right, I'm trying to figure out who you are. I mean, I gladly sit meet with you face to face and just talk off off camera, off anything, not to try to prove anything, just to get to know who you are.

I just want to tell you this. Your video is going to be used for destructive purposes. It will, in the eyes of people, downplay the severity of the sins of Martin Luther. God is his judge. I don't know what what he said and did is far more severe to me than anything anybody's brought to me about Benihan or Kenneth Copeland or anybody in terms of the weight, the magnitude, the ugliness, the horror of it. And if he could do that as a Christian, God knows. I don't judge his soul.

God knows. I think God used him in amazing, incredible and extraordinary ways. And I think his crucified flesh brought destruction. And Luther's anti-Semitism, you have to remember, helped shape a larger mindset which played into the racial anti-Semitism.

They were they were hand in hand. I would just encourage you to think about this and Brandon as well. And we'll monitor the comments. Your video will encourage anti-Semites and will encourage like the caller earlier, the anti-Semite, the pro Luther guy by downplaying the severity of sins, the language you use, the way you described it, the way you characterized Judaism today. I'm just telling you, as someone that's been monitoring this for decades, is actually going to give fuel to the fire of anti-Semites.

Just encourage you to weigh that before the Lord, sir. I would note that the anti-Semites that I've debated in the past are already upset with the video that I put out and accused accuse me publicly of being a betrayer of Luther's faith. So I would note that I've already upset the anti-Semites with this response.

So I think the right people are angry about what I said. But I'm thankful for the opportunity to have an actual conversation with you. And I'll take you up on your offer if you want to follow up on it, that you and I can have a conversation, no cameras, no recordings, just to get to know each other. Let's do this, Chris. How about I'm sure Brandon's listening right now. Brandon, connect us. Brandon, you have the permission to give Chris my cell phone.

Does Brandon have permission, Chris, to give me your cell phone? Absolutely. All right. I will call you as soon as I get it in the next 24 hours and we'll find a time to talk further.

Fair enough? Sounds good. All right. God bless you. Thank you.