Dr. Brown Tackles Your Charismatic-Related Questions

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. You've got questions, we've got answers. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Hey friends, welcome to The Line of Fire broadcast. You notice I didn't say the phone lines are open because I'm not taking calls today, but I've got a bunch of excellent questions that I'm going to answer. I think you'll find this edifying, helpful. Friends, my goal is to help equip you to be strong. It's not just to answer abstract questions so we can have more information. And for the most part, that's not why you're asking. You're asking because you're students of the Word, because you're living out your lives before the Lord, because real questions come up in life, in ministry, in study, and you want answers to those. So we want to do our best to provide you with answers. Now, some are questions for me. What's my perspective on a particular issue?

What have I taught in a particular issue? And I'll do my best to explain that. In other cases, the questions are more like, Dr. Brown, I've heard this, I've heard this.

What does the Word say? And of course, we do our best to lay that out plainly and clearly for you. You can always write to us at AskDrBrown.org. You can write with further questions. We do our best to answer as well.

Okay, here's a question from Clyde. I'm not sure, Doc, but I think you may be into endorsing corporate praying and singing in tongues during leadership. Please share your biblical thoughts.

God bless. All right, for sure, for sure, the New Testament through the writings of Paul makes plain that we are not to deliver messages in tongues without an interpreter, right? So someone speaks a message, they feel the Holy Spirit comes in, they believe they're inspired to speak, they deliver a message in tongues, and there's silence. It's a house group with 10 people, it's a congregation with 300 people. And they deliver the message, they don't have the interpretation, no one has the interpretation, there's no one there with the gift of interpretation, then be silent. That's it.

Don't speak again. Now, if it's that same group, that same assembly that's gathered together, you know the people, the same circumstances, and you realize there's no one with the gift of interpretation, next time around, don't deliver a message in tongues. So that's pretty simple, that's pretty straightforward. What about the practice of, you're in a service with several thousand people, you've got the worship music playing, and they'll say, let's sing a new song to the Lord. So everyone just begins, now in some circles that may be very odd for you, and in other circles very common, everyone begins to worship together, right? And Lord, I praise you, Lord, you're wonderful, Jesus, I love you, et cetera. Everybody's singing, but it's kind of a harmony, right? You're somehow in key, but different words and thousands of voices together, so what you generally hear is, brrr. In other words, it's this voice, it's like one voice coming up together. And in a setting like that, what if the person next to you was singing in German, what if your native language was Spanish, you're singing in Spanish, and the person next to you is singing in Russian, the person next to them in Arabic, the person next to them in Hebrew, the person next to them in English, and you're all singing together a new song.

Hodu ladonai ki tov, ki lo lom chas do, give thanks to the Lord he's good, his love endures forever. You're all singing in these different languages. Is that confusion? No, I don't think so. Is that contrary to New Testament order? No, I don't think so, because what you're hearing is one voice going up together in that setting. In that same situation, could you just as well sing in tongues or pray in tongues?

I don't see why not. I don't see how that's a violation of New Testament order or principle. To me, it's really simple. Instead of thinking of tongues here, as it is biblically, a language of the Spirit that only God understands, that our own human minds don't understand. It's not a regular earthly language for the most part.

It could be, but for the most part it's not, the way Paul describes it in 1 Corinthians 14. So it's clear that it's analogous to someone speaking in any foreign language that we don't understand. That's Paul's whole thing. He said, I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you.

So Paul was a tongue speaker. And he said the one that prays in the Spirit edifies himself. So you are getting built up and he says you're praying mysteries in the Spirit to God. There'd be no reason to be praying in Dutch or Chinese or some other language you don't know to pray mysteries in the Spirit. You're praying in a spiritual language given by God.

No one understands it. Paul's clear on that. There needs to be the gift of interpretation, not a native speaker, but the gift of interpretation.

Again, Paul is very clear on all of that. But it's analogous to someone getting up and I've got a great message and I'm going to now speak it in German, but there are no German speakers there and there's no German interpreter. Well, be quiet.

It does no good. But if there are hundreds of us worshipping together, one in German, one in this language, one in that, and it's all one voice going up to God, I don't see that as in violation of what Paul says. When he says if you all speak in tongues, someone comes in and thinks you're mad, you're in a house group with 15, 20 people. To me, again, that's a very different setting from corporate worship with thousands of people together with one voice going up to God and instruments playing. The key thing is don't say anything, deliver any message publicly that cannot be understood.

If there is no interpreter, be quiet. So I see those as distinct categories. All right. Alan, do you share any of the good faith concerns that critics of the NAR have, New Apostolic Reformation? Given that you've made claims that NAR critics are conspiratorial, I would ask whether you find any legitimacy in any of our concerns or whether you feel all of our theological objections are imagined and without substance.

Alan, thank you for the question. To be clear, I don't believe that NAR critics are conspiratorial. I believe that they largely paint a conspiratorial picture of NAR.

Okay? Now, if you missed my interview with Professor Matthew Taylor from Tuesday, you'll find that very interesting as we interact on these things as well. He is a staunch critic of Peter Wagner's New Apostolic Reformation. At the same time, he agrees with me that the NAR of many of the critics is overblown, exaggerated, conspiratorial, and largely nonexistent in that regard. When I spent four plus hours with Doug Yvette and Holly Pivik earlier this year, face-to-face interacting, I appealed to them. Now, they said no to my appeal. But I appealed to them, drop the NAR terminology, which means a million different things to a million different people, and has now become the boogeyman for every error and extreme in the charismatic movement, and let us work together on addressing the very real issues and concerns that do exist.

So Alan, without question, there are real concerns that do exist. This is why, with all respect to Dr. Wagner and the good that he did, I never joined his organization of apostles because I differed with some of his views of apostles. It seemed like everybody became an apostle.

You come into an area and just appoint the chief executive apostle over an area, or if you're in business and gifted a circuit where you're a marketplace apostle and so on and so forth. I differed with the definitions. I differed with some of the aspects of teaching on spiritual warfare, etc.

So I never became part of it. I worked with plenty of people that were friends with Dr. Wagner. I worked with people all over the body.

I worked with people who are Reformed, who are cessationists, etc. So I worked with a wide range of people. But I've shared many of these concerns. I've written about them.

I've written about prophetic abuses. So my appeal to Doug and Holly, again, my appeal was rejected, is if you drop some of this terminology and we can focus on the real issues, then we can work together in many, many ways. Not that they're longing to work with me. They're plenty busy doing what they're doing. But that was my thing. I tried to come 90 percent over to where they were, sharing many, many, many concerns. Now, at the same time, I believe many things that are called NAR are not NAR.

That's one of my big issues, right? Many things that are called NAR are not actually NAR. In other words, they're unrelated. If you say NAR is XYZ, well, then it's not ABC and it's not 123.

If it's XYZ, then it's not ABC, it's not 123. So I'm seeing all different groups, people put together, all allegedly NAR. And in many cases, there is no real connection.

So I want to summarize where I had issues. We'll use Doug and Holly's work as the most serious of the critics of NAR that I would differ with. There are plenty of websites and everybody's there. It's like, everybody's NAR. What is it anymore?

Right? It's like Italian food is also Chinese, is also Mexican, is also German, is also Middle Eastern. It's not Italian anymore. It's lost its meaning. That's one of my issues, that everything becomes NAR.

I've gone through one website where it gives the quote, six characteristics of a NAR church, four of which I completely repudiate, two of which I have a different approach to, and yet I'm allegedly a leader in NAR. It's like I have a Chinese restaurant that cooks Chinese and therefore I'm an Italian cook because I'm part of this food conspiracy. It's like, what is this? That's my issue. Where there are real concerns, let's address, let us address the real concerns. Alan, for sure there are concerns that, that critics have that I share, that I've spoken about, that I've spoken against, that I've written about, that I've written against.

But here's my summary statement. While seeking, and this is about Doug and Holly's work, while seeking to be Irenic, fair and balanced, Doug and Holly's material is highly alarmist. And I'd say these are the best of the NAR critics, which can be seen by the reaction to NAR in the wider body. They paint with too broad of a brush, grouping together a large and diverse group of leaders and movements, then taking the most extreme elements taught by specific leaders, as if these were the beliefs and practices of the whole, also making misleading generalizations such as speaking of a NAR translation of the Bible, the Passion translation.

That's the NAR translation. As if there was a formal NAR movement, and this was the recognized Bible version that the movement used. They also put the worst construction on various so-called NAR practices, which for the most part are not practiced and lived out as presented in their research.

Also majoring on definitional nuances, such as the difference between office and ministry function, making mountains out of molehills. In the end, as much as I agree with many of their concerns and with much of their exegesis of scripture, I find their work to be divisive, confusing and fear producing, similar to what would happen if I told young mothers, while not all white men are child predators, quite a few are, especially the ones who are fairly tall. These mothers would now suspect every white man they met of being a predator, especially the taller ones. This is similar to the Left's characterization of evangelical Trump voters as white supremacists and insurrectionists. Even things like training children or publishing books becomes a nefarious activity. In the same way, quote, NAR has become a weapon with which to attack, demonize and dismiss fine ministries and leaders in the body, working against unity and hurting the body overall, while also hindering believers from embracing true apostolic and prophetic ministry. And as a personal friend of a number of people quoted in their research, I can honestly say that I've never heard a single one of these men or women espouse all the tenets of Doug and Holly's book, with the rarest possible exception. I've heard quite a few of them categorically differ with the major so-called NAR tenets, while in practice, I've rarely, if ever, seen any of these teachings or practices fleshed out in the way Doug and Holly describe.

That's why I say that the NAR of the critics does not exist. That's as clearly as I can state and lay things out. So by all means, let's address specific issues that remains my request.

Let's talk about specific issues. I can tell you plainly and in a straightforward way, I agree with this. I don't agree with it. I think it's biblical.

I don't think it's biblical. I've encountered this a good many times. So let's focus on those issues where we do share concern. Is brain health important to you or someone you love? Then please take a few moments and let me present a most amazing product formulated by leading physicians from Mayo Clinic and Johns Hopkins Medical.

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Okay, this is from Zach. I don't differ from you very much with charismatic points, other than theology, but I'd like to hear you expand on the, why wasn't tongues more common in the early church? If it was more common than I'm aware of, and we have some ground to stand on historical tongues gifts, does that mean the Zuzah Street and early Protestant Pentecostal movements were a revival of that vein of church history? I see people criticize Pentecostal tongues and modern gifts as a recent phenomenon. I know that's not entirely true, but I'd appreciate you helping me understand the key points in this argument and how to defend the integrity of tongues and other gifts as being a historical part of the church in some capacity. Thanks for the question, Zach. So, number one, we start with the Word.

What does the Word say? And we have promises of the gift of the Holy Spirit to all. We have promises that the manifestation of the Spirit is given to all for the common good, one gift to one, one gift to another. We have clear teaching in the New Testament not to forbid tongues, just to use tongues properly. We have clear teaching to earnestly seek the gifts, especially prophecy. So, that's the New Testament witness. The New Testament does not say that the practice of tongues or prophecy will cease until Jesus returns. At that point, our imperfect knowledge will be replaced, our imperfect faith will be replaced with that which is perfect. That's when Jesus returns. Any argument tried to say it's the canonization of the Scripture, the canonization of the New Testament is completely bogus and is one of the worst eisegetical errors in modern interpretive history that became popular for a while.

It's dying out again, and it didn't even exist in any wide-scale way before, what, late 1800s to early 1900s. We want to talk about something that's a historical aberration. It's not tongues. It's the idea that when the perfect comes, it was speaking of the canonization of Scripture. So, put that aside.

It's just a little bit of a sidetrack. But we do have it clearly taught, clearly welcomed, and clearly not a foreign language that others understand. It happened like that in Acts 2, but there's no evidence that was the case elsewhere in the book of Acts, and it's certainly not the case as Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians 14. To me, that's just a straightforward reading of the text. Even if he said it wasn't for today, it's pretty straightforward that it wasn't just foreign languages in New Testament times. So, at a certain point in church history, these gifts, they never disappear. You can read explicit accounts of prophecy, of raising the dead, of driving out demons, of healing the sick for centuries. Second, third, fourth, fifth century, you keep reading about them.

In fact, there's a book on 20 centuries of charismatic history where you keep going through history and seeing the gifts there. And then even the modern outpouring with tongues being largely restored, that wasn't Azusa Street. That was before then.

It wasn't Charles Parham in Topeka, Kansas. It was before then. You have examples from it 30, 40, 50 years earlier in India as the Holy Spirit was moving. So, and that's just to paint one picture there.

There are other examples as well. Eddie Hyatt's book on 20 centuries of charismatic history gives a good summary and overview of how the Spirit's been moving through history, but as the church became larger, more and more hierarchical, as it became more and more led by a bishop rather than a body expression, then there was less and less ministry through the body, and you had the distinction between clergy and laity. And one of the results of that was a lessening of the working of the Spirit through the average believer.

So that's a lot of what happened. But the New Testament makes it clear that these will be here until Jesus returns. The New Testament makes clear we should not forbid speaking in tongues. We should earnestly seek all the gifts. There is benefit to tongues.

The fact that some of these things waned, not disappeared, but waned at times in church history is easily explicable, just like it's self-evident that they have come back powerfully over the last century plus. All right, David has no question, just agreement and appreciation. Ben, I'm not sure we differ here, but I've never heard you address whether or not you believe that healing is in the atonement on this side of the second coming. Obviously it could be thought of as our new body being the ultimate fulfillment at our healing, but then the new body aside, do you pray for healing based on it being in the atonement or as a work of the kingdom that may or may not happen or some other belief system?

I pray for healing based on healing being part of the atonement and based on healing being a manifestation of the advancing kingdom and based on healing be an expression of the goodness and love of God. However, I also understand that in this world we don't receive everything that was promised. We have 100% everything we need to overcome sin through the cross. Would you agree that the power to overcome sin was purchased at the cross, that when Jesus died for our sins that he died for them completely and that through baptism, this is the public identification, Paul says we die to sin and we rise in newness of life in Messiah, the body of sin may be destroyed and he says to consider ourselves dead to sin. That's 100% paid for in the atonement, yet in this world we don't see the full revelation of that. We don't see the full realization of that in this world.

Agreed? Okay, I see it the same with healing. When I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the Hebrew word Rafah in the Hebrew Scriptures in the ancient Near East and I really opened that up, I saw that you couldn't separate healing from the atonement in that. It would be like saying, do you believe there is restoration and salvation?

There is so much overlap. Clearly, I do not believe that it was just as Jesus was whipped, that the beating was where the healing was purchased and when he died that's when sin was forgiven. I see it all as one, his whipping, his death on the cross, all as one, all of his suffering and dying on our behalf. Look at it like this. When he came into the world, he came into our sinful fallen world and he began to endure suffering on our behalf before he ever went to the cross.

Right? So, he began to take our sicknesses, our pains on his shoulders. He set the captives free. He came into the muck and filth of our world. If you've ever ministered to sick person after sick person, this is not glorious, this is, this is, you're exposed to the suffering and pain of the world. Dealing with demons, dealing with the criticism, the hatred. He comes into our world until he descends to the very bottom, the death on the cross where he deals once and for all with the cause of our suffering, namely sin. And then as a result of that, first we receive forgiveness of sins, then we often receive peace of mind, we often receive healing of body. In other words, now as the outflow of the atonement works its way out in this world, we receive many of these benefits. So, forgiveness of sins, that is the foundation of it all, that is received by all through confession and faith. 100% we turn to him, we ask for forgiveness and mercy, we receive it as a gift from God.

Now the other benefits of the atonement work their way out in this world until forever we experience the full results of the atonement. So, do I believe healing is in the atonement? Yes. Do I believe that we always receive healing in this world?

No. Just like other benefits of the cross, we don't fully receive in this world even though they are available. And we're all going to die. So, forgiveness, that's forever. But we're going to die physically and our bodies wear out. So, healing is partial in this world and forever and ever it is full and complete. So, it's one of those examples of a ready and not yet. We have, but we don't have the fullness in this world.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome back to the Line of Fire. We're glad to be answering your questions today.

Not taking calls. Mention questions that have been sent in. Jonathan, hey Dr. Mike, no questions just to encourage you. You are always fair and balanced and promote the gifts as they should be done. Bless you. Well, thank you, Jonathan. Brad, One Man Show Ministries. Well, we all have our part.

Let's do our part well for the glory of God. Melissa, I'd like to hear about what you think about Perry Stone. He has all these visions and prophecies all the time. I don't follow Perry Stone's ministry. I've never watched a message of his.

I only saw one snippet of comments one day. I think he's strongly pre-Trib rapture. We could have an interesting discussion on that, but I haven't read any of his books. I haven't watched any of his messages.

So, I can't comment beyond that. I'll just say this, that for anyone that claims to have lots of visions, prophecies, test them out. Test them out. In other words, jot them down, journal it, and see, okay, he said this and that is going to happen this year or these things are going to transpire in the next six months or watch and see what happens in the next five years or this is going to happen with President Trump or President Biden. Watch and see.

Watch and see. And if this person is accurate time after time after time and their teaching overall in scripture is sound, praise God. If they're accurate but their teaching in scripture is unsound, I would stay far away from them. If their teaching in scripture is sound but then are accurate with the prophetic stuff, well then they need to be urged to shut up with the prophetic stuff and stay with the word. But plenty of ministries I haven't followed, listened to, it's a big church out there.

So, if I had, I would give you my opinion, but I haven't. Let's see. Natalie, I've watched your debate on the pre- and post-tribulation rapture stuff and I agree with you, it makes sense. I read Daniel chapter 7 verse 21 today, also concreting my decision to believe we'll be here for most or some of it. The deliverance stuff I'm uncertain of because I see with my own eyes Christians being delivered of stuff, even manifesting, mind-blowing, so I am confused about that one.

Okay, so the question is, the question is simply this. Can a Christian have a demon? Can a Christian be demonized? Can a Christian be demon possessed? Can a Christian be demon oppressed? Do Christians need deliverance?

These subjects should be answered a hundred different ways. What do you mean, have a demon? What do you mean by possessed? Is possessed the same as demonized? Is possessed similar to oppressed, etc.? My view is that Christians can come under demonic power and need deliverance.

If they open their hearts and their minds to lies, if they open their hearts and minds to the deception of the enemy, if they give themselves over to sin, they could find themselves in a place where having been bound by lies and deception and the power of sin, they don't know their way out and they need deliverance. Does that mean they are possessed? No, I do not believe a Christian can be possessed by a demon.

I don't believe that. As if that demon controlled that person's life in full. No, if that's the case, then Jesus is not their Lord and they're not a child of God. Do I believe they can come under demonic power?

Yes. Do I believe that in some way, some aspect of their lives, demons can enter in? Yes, we are multifaceted human beings. And just like the daughter of Abraham, a Jewish woman in Luke 13, that Satan had bound her 18 years and she was crippled over by a demonic spirit, by Satan, that can happen to a believer today. Or Satan can enter into the soulless realm of a believer. But I do not believe Satan demonic spirits can dwell in the human spirit along with the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that personally as I understand scripture.

Are there deliverance ministries that go too far? Of course. Are there things where people just get worked up emotionally? Of course.

Are there mass events of psychological frenzy? Sure. Are there real deliverances taking place today?

Sure. So I believe that deliverance is never to be our focus in terms of that's just what we were deliverance ministry. That's part, I was talking to one brother, very well known for deliverance. He goes, no, no, no, we are a discipleship ministry. We are a church that makes disciples. That's our emphasis. And once a month we have deliverance service. So he wanted to be clear what their emphasis is. So when it comes to demons, there's always a lot of flaky stuff, a lot of weird stuff.

And there's also very real stuff. And scripture speaks to this as well. This is our best to be biblical, put our focus on Jesus, not demons. And where there is demonic activity and people need deliverance, be it people in the world who don't know the Lord or people in the Lord that need to be set free, let's minister it in the power of Jesus name.

Let's see. Mark, my question is, do you believe Todd Bentley's profession of faith? As to whether Todd Bentley is a believer or not, I don't know. I do not believe he should be in ministry. That's been my position for 13 years now, 14 years. That's been my view publicly and clearly without equivocation.

And it was the view of a group of five that I work with that oversaw an investigation where a private investigator was hired to look at many, many, many, many, many allegations against Todd, actually going to different locations and traveling out of state to meet face to face and tracking down many people and asking questions. It is the conclusion of those five leaders that were involved. I could not be involved in making the decision because I had already said I did not believe he should be in ministry. But their decision was, under no circumstances should he ever lead his own ministry. If he served in another ministry after proper repentance and restoration, that would have been something else. But he should never lead his own ministry.

That was their conclusion. Whether he is a believer or not, God knows. God knows. You say, well how can he be a believer and live in deception? Believers can do all kinds of things. So, I have critics that are furious with me because I won't say he is clearly not a Christian. God knows.

God knows. Alright? And I feel very safe saying that, just as I feel very safe saying I do not believe he should be in ministry, certainly he should not be leading a ministry. I absolutely agree with that conclusion and I felt this way publicly, openly for over thirteen years. Nick, it is not your charismatic views that cause me concern. I think your Pentecostal Arminian view of salvation is forced and could lead people toward legalism, but I know you recognize the amazingness of God's grace so we can agree to disagree. Yeah, obviously within the body we are going to agree to disagree.

Right? You know, I have friends of mine that say about themselves, I don't agree with everything I have preached or taught about themselves over the decades. You know, sometimes our own views grow and evolve.

Within your own household, husband and wife, you may have fundamental agreements, I hope you do, but then some areas where you differ. There is no question that the Pentecostal Arminian view of salvation could lead, if wrongly heard or taught or preached, could lead to either legalism or it could lead to despair, I am saved or not saved, I am lost today, I am saved tomorrow, kind of thing. At the same time, once saved, always saved can lead to license and false assurance and perseverance of the saints, the Reformed doctrine, could lead to lack of assurance because you can't really know for sure that you are one of the chosen until the day you are with the Lord.

So, I have seen abuses in each, so I do my best to teach practically. Namely, if you want to follow Jesus, he has promised to keep you. If Jesus is your Lord, lean on him. He has promised to keep you. You may struggle, but if you want him, he has given you promises. Nobody can pluck you out of his hand. Nobody. Nothing can separate you from his love.

Nothing. The one who began a good work in you will bring it to completion. Absolute rest in that. That is why I never ever ever ever worry about losing my salvation. It doesn't dawn on me. God has promised to keep me. It doesn't dawn on me. Any more than when I am flying in a plane, I worry about I am going to jump up, try to pull the emergency door open and jump out of the plane at 30,000 feet. It doesn't dawn on me.

Right? Any more than dawns on me that I want to walk away from the Lord. That being said, if your heart is set on sin and rebellion, if you think, well I can do whatever I want because I am saved.

No, you can't. There are strong warnings. There are strong warnings. So, you give assurance to those that want the Lord in the midst of their weakness and you give warnings to those who think they can brazenly sin. And to me scripture clearly supports both sides of that equation. Let's see. Marianne, I didn't realize you think the Church will go through tribulation. I have to look up your debate on this. I appreciate you.

Thanks Marianne. I would encourage you to read the book that Professor Craig Keener and I wrote on the subject Not Afraid of the Antichrist. We don't bash other views. I've worked with people around the world for decades who hold to a pre-trib rapture. And in fact some of my closest friends that I've worked with around the world, I don't know where they stand on it. It's never come up. I preach for them hundreds and hundreds of times and we've ministered together and it's never come up. It's between us.

So, I don't divide over this for sure. And some say, well it's not going through tribulation. It's the tribulation. It's the great tribulation. It's the wrath of God. Yeah, my view on this is that God protects his people from his wrath.

So, we both believe in that. Pre-trib says we're taken out before these things happen. I say that the word Pliny teaches that we're kept in the midst of and that God enables us to flee for refuge. That his wrath is poured out on the wicked and the real outpouring of wrath tends to happen very close to the end. That's why there's some who believe in a pre-wrath rapture that right before that we're taken out. But either way, we both agree that the wrath of God is not poured out on us believers.

It's poured out on a sinning, rebellious world. We believe that God protects us from his wrath. But as Jesus prayed in John 17.15 for his disciples, his apostles, he said, Father, I don't pray that you take them out. I do not pray that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. In Isaiah 26, God says to his people in the midst of an end time prophecy about outpouring of wrath, come into the inner chamber and hide yourself until the wrath passes by. Just as God put out his wrath on Egypt and kept the Israelites safe, he'll do the same with his people at the end of the age. However, yes, we will suffer tribulation. Of course, we will suffer the wrath of man. We will suffer the wrath of Satan. We will suffer the wrath of the antichrist for the people.

That's our privilege and honor. Just like it's been through church history to this day. People being killed for their faith, arrested for their faith, tortured for their faith, suffering terribly for their faith, being separated from friends and family for their faith, suffering things right now that would be beyond our comprehension. May God strengthen them in the midst of it.

That's a lot in this world and will be so until the end and Jesus will always be more than enough. Are you or a cherished loved one finding it harder to remember names, stay focused or maintain a positive outlook on life? Well, you're not alone. I'm Dr. Paul and I have a critical health alert. Did you know that approximately two out of three Americans aged 50 and older experience some level of cognitive impairment affecting their daily lives?

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, our last segment here for the day on the Line of Fire, just an encouragement. You know, as we get to the end of the year, partying, fun and all that, but you know, you can't live in that mentality all the time, especially with diet. And as God changed my life nine and a half years ago, that's literally, that's why I'm here today. Someone would say, well, Mike, don't you prefer all these other foods? No, I prefer being alive. I prefer being alive so I can be here for the Lord, for Nancy, for kids, for grandkids and for all of you.

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If it's over the weekend, they will get back to you. Alright, let's see. Brett, people drawn to the Pentecostal movement are seeking an experience, a feeling. It's often conjured up with music and movement. People seeking an experience are often left feeling empty.

They can never replicate that feeling. You spend too much time focused on Pentecostal theology. Remember, consistency is more important than intensity in our walk with God. Just preach the gospel, time is short, not a judgment. I love you in the Lord.

Hey Brett, thanks for the love and for sharing your views candidly. I candidly differ, 100% differ with, quote, people drawn to the Pentecostal movement are seeking an experience, a feeling. No, they're seeking God. They're seeking what's written in the Word.

They're seeking God to be glorified and to touch lives. And it's Scripture. It's in the Bible. It's the way God's described.

It's what He promises. So that's what we're seeking Him and what He's promised. And it's not a feeling or experience, just walking with God. To me, being Pentecostal is the foundation of being consistent. In other words, walking in the Spirit, living in the Spirit, communing with the Spirit, being moved on by the Spirit.

Now, many non-Pentecostals share some of those things, but not all of them in the fullness that we could scripturally. So, to me, it's just being scriptural. And we are told that we're to burn bright, right, to stay on fire for God. It's literally boiling the way Paul describes it, to stay fervent in Spirit in Romans 12. So, it's consistency but with intensity. To me, it's both and.

It's not either or. Are there people that are Pentecostal who go from experience to experience? Sure, of course there are. Are there churches that try to work things up?

Sure there are. And are there non-Pentecostals that are into intellectual pride? Sure. And are many of their services characterized by theologizing that's impractical?

Sure. And do many people leave their first love in non-Pentecostal? That's what happened to me when I went from Pentecostal to Reformed.

It was part of me leaving my first love. I'm not saying it's the case with others. I'm saying it was the case with me. So, every side has potential weaknesses. To generalize, though, all who are Reformed or seeking intellectual prideful answers, or all who are whatever the group is within the church or doing it for this reason or that reason, that is when we fall into error and maybe project our own experiences that we've had in those circles that were negative. But again, thanks for expressing differences. And to me, the reason that Pentecostal and Charismatic things come up a lot is because I'm asked about it a lot and because there's controversy and there's flaky stuff that has to be addressed that I have addressed regularly for decades in writing and in preaching.

And there are attacks that are false attacks and wrong attacks that we respond to. And the biggest thing is the Holy Spirit's been poured out around the world. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions are experiencing new life through the power of the Spirit and have a Pentecostal-Charismatic theology based on the Word which was confirmed by experience. Or that experience drew them to the Word where they really came to know God.

So, it's both and. But it's what the Spirit's doing around the world. And I don't know how you could just teach and preach through all the New Testament without a strong Holy Spirit emphasis as well. All right, hey, this is a candid interaction, right? Let's see here.

Okay, no, that's the same one from Marianne again. Susan, what about people who say they are ascending, those who say they can travel in the Spirit? Okay, I fundamentally and deeply question the legitimacy of accounts of anyone who says at will they can go into the third heaven. I don't mean that they can spiritually picture themselves there or that they can spiritually meditate on the reality that we are seated in heavenly places with Christ and that's a spiritual reality and we take hold of it and we can envision that. I'm not disputing that. It's a New Testament reality that we are seated in him, with him in heavenly places.

Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Colossians 3. That's a spiritual reality. And we can take hold, okay, what does that mean? What does that imply?

How does that work itself out in my own life? That's one thing totally separate from the idea that I can literally be translated, my spirit, to the presence of God in heaven, right? The third heaven. That's the way Paul describes it. The third heaven, where he heard things that it's not lawful for a man to utter.

He couldn't even repeat the things he heard and learned there. Just at will I could do that. Or several times a day or every single week I'm going back and forth. No, I don't believe that for a split second. And when people claim to have those accounts day and night, I fundamentally question them.

I fundamentally question, I reject that this is happening. In my book Playing with Holy Fire I have a whole chapter on to the third heaven and back in a flash. One of my colleagues, a grad from our school, asked many years ago, why is it that people who claim to spend 75% of their time in the third heaven with the Lord are some of those carnal people I know?

That's a fair question. Do I believe people have had out of body experiences? Your death experiences where they were in the presence of the Lord could well be true.

In other words, scripturally, I have no reason to reject that. And if the fruit of their lives reflects this radical change, for example, one brother, I don't get to see him much, but we're friends and colleagues, and half his face is severely burned when he reaches at a hand to shake. It's a disfigured hand. He was in a plane crash, severely injured, and burned in the plane crash, and basically woke up in hell. He was not right with God. In his physical body he was in agony, and he was told, you can come back in your physical body in this agony and get right with God, or die and burn.

And he accepted God's gracious offer. I have no problem saying something like that is real, or someone that has a near-death experience has caught up in the presence of God and meets with the Lord. Those things could well happen. Many people have dreams. Dreams? That's a whole different category. It's not actually happening.

It's a dream. But those who, yeah, I went to heaven today and it's back and forth and back and forth, no, I don't believe it, I don't believe it, I don't believe it's accessible like that. And you say, well, where does the Bible address it?

Well, Paul's writings in 2 Corinthians 12 are the indication to me that it was quite exceptional and so life-changing and profound that he can't even talk about what happened. Not to say that no one can talk about what happened, but it's not just this constant casual chatter thing. So I have real questions with that. And if you're going to be taught, I'm going to teach you how to ascend into the heavenlies, forget about it.

Forget about it. That's my view. I was asked, that is my view. Josh, I'm not sure you've fallen on this, but as a charismatic, I don't adhere to the initial evidence doctrine.

I find it divisive and elitist. What's your stance on what the initial physical evidence that someone is filled with the Spirit? Okay, the word physical can be a little misleading because we're not talking about feeling something, but rather what is the outward sign? So do I believe that speaking in tongues is always the initial outward sign that someone has been immersed in the Spirit, baptized in the Spirit? No, I don't. Do I believe it is the most common sign? Yes. Do I believe there's a reason for that?

Yes. In other words, when someone is filled with the Spirit, they speak, right? The Spirit of the Lord is on me to preach.

I mean, this is just a paradigm. The prophets, the Spirit came on them, they spoke. So it's not a surprise that when someone is immersed in the Spirit, this is separate from being indwelt by the Spirit at salvation, which is for all of us. Our bodies become the temple of the Holy Spirit at salvation. And by the Spirit, we are baptized into the body of Christ at salvation. But this immersion in power, what many refer to as the baptism in the Holy Spirit or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit empowering us to be stronger witnesses in a bolder, more powerful capacity.

So yes, yes, I do believe there is initial outward evidence. And in most cases, it seems that there is speaking involved. Acts 8 doesn't mention anything but Acts 2, Acts 10, and Acts 19, all evidence speaking. Three of those four evidence speaking in tongues in Acts 2 foreign languages, clearly. Acts 19 also speaks of prophecy. So it could be the Holy Spirit comes on someone, they prophesy. It could be the Holy Spirit comes on someone, and they don't speak at all. But that would be the exception to the rule. The rule would be there is utterance. Acts 4, they were filled with the Spirit and spoke the word boldly. So again, that's not this exact same context, but the same principle.

You're filled, you speak. So I do believe that there generally is initial evidence. Sometimes someone's immersed within the Spirit and doesn't come into the fullness of that expression for a while. But generally speaking, there will be an outward sign, that outward sign normally associated with speaking, most commonly speaking in tongues, but not always for sure. So that is my own view. May the Lord bless you and keep you where you want folks to go.