Updating the IHOPKC Controversy

The following program is recorded content created by Truth Network. Welcome, welcome to The Line of Fire.

This is Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. I'm opening the phones to all questions on all subjects. All right, 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. Anything you want to talk to me about, ask me about on any subject.

I haven't done that as much as I've wanted recently. We've had some just programming things, things we want to get across, a whole broadcast where we just poured in and didn't take any calls or only calls on specific subjects. So, I'm opening the phones. A little later in the show, I'll get your calls on a wide range of subjects. But first and foremost, if you have specific questions, not behind-the-scenes secret things, but specific questions regarding what's happened at IHOP, KC&N allegations against Mike Bickel, I'll take calls. But again, it's not for accusations about either side to be raised. It's not behind-the-scenes details. It's rather just general questions you may have.

Phone lines are open 866-34-TRUTH. Okay, I discussed this publicly because this is something very major that has been before the body for a few weeks now that exploded publicly and has been public ever since. And my goal has been to get us to step back from attacking one another publicly, to step back from speculating publicly, to step back from just weighing in with opinions which, after all, are often based on misinformation or partial information or just our own particular biased perceptions.

I say our. All of us can do that. And to stand together against the devil who wants to divide and destroy, stand together against the devil who wants to discourage, stand against the devil who wants to cover over sin, stand against him together as children of light, and work to bring a God-glorifying outcome to a very painful situation. So, I have been involved. I was called in as an advisor to the leadership team at IHOPKC. I was called in as an advisor, as well as to speak to Forerunner Church and the larger IHOPKC community. And I did that a few weeks ago and brought a message that I feel is a very important message. If you haven't watched it, just go to IHOPKC on YouTube and you'll find it there.

We've got it on our social media pages as well. I believe it was an important message. I believe if that's all God sent me to do, then I delivered what he wanted me to in that context. And I began reading from John 3, 16 to 21. We all know John 3 is 16. For God so loved the world, he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

You go down to the end of it. It says that whoever lives by the truth comes into the light that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God. So my goal from the start has been for everything to come to the light. Now look, every one of us in our lives has done something where we have to ask God forgiveness, right? And it's just between us and God, right? So for example, you're driving in your car, you have a wrong thought, you've got your family there, you just have a passing wrong thought, Lord, wash me cleanse me. You don't have to tell your whole family, I just had this thought. Now, let's say you're driving in your car with your family and you get short with your spouse. You're a little nasty and grouchy.

It's like, oh honey, I'm so sorry. That was wrong. And kids, the way I just acted was wrong. So you just fixed that there, right?

Maybe there's something on another level and this requires you to sit down with some other peers and say, hey, I blew it here and I need to make this right. But that's the scope of it. That's the extent of it. There are other things that cross yet another line and now they'll come even further and some have to be disclosed publicly, right? For example, let's say you had committed a crime and now you came to faith and you've been hiding from the police and law authorities for years. Now you come to faith, okay, well you committed that crime before you knew the Lord, but it's actual crime.

You need to go to the police and say, hey, I'm turning myself in. So you can be free on the inside even if you go to jail. So there are all different levels of things. There are allegations against Mike Bickel and what's true or not, God knows. God knows. Even with all my involvement, God knows.

I don't know. And I was not part of the investigation. I've never been part of the investigation. I served as an advisor, but I've had to step back even from that because I spent many, many hours, if you're going to Kansas City, on the phone, interacting with different leaders on quote all sides. So those who've been working with others who say that they were victims and those who've been working with others that have been close with Mike Bickel on the leadership team. So I've done my best. I mean, even as over this weekend, last Friday, reaching out to talk to people on different sides saying, I want to hear your perspective.

I want you to tell me what you feel is being handled rightly, wrongly, et cetera. But because it's been massively time consuming, because I'm about to go on vacation, yes, vacation, a few amazing days with the family, and then some overseas travel and amidst a very intense schedule, I cannot devote the time that needs to be devoted. And because of that, I've stepped back from the official capacity. So I am not officially involved. Now I'm available anytime leaders can reach out to me, any on either side can reach out at any time. And if it's a matter of gathering everyone together, I can be part of that and be a blessing in it.

If schedule permits, I'm in, I'm there, but I'm not an official advisor. And what I can say is this, everything remains tremendously muddled right now and tremendously unclear. On the one hand, the leadership team, before they reached out to me in Kansas City, before they reached out to me, reached out to another third party with a lot of experience in settling disputes and trying to separate truth from error or fact from fiction. And he immediately recommended that they bring in a top legal firm because of the nature of some of the allegations and to investigate. And this legal firm had specialized, one of the leading legal firms in America, specialized in helping victims of sexual abuse, especially clergy abuse. They had many cases among those who alleged that they had been sexually abused by Catholic clergy. So, they had a great track record representing those victims. That's one reason they were chosen. Many were very uneasy with that saying, you don't bring in a legal firm, that's intimidating or do we have to get lawyers to meet with them? But the intent was they'll do a really good job and they'll have no church bias. There'll be no bias in any way in terms of we stand with this group or that group or we have this spiritual perception or that spiritual perception. So, that's where they were brought in. I had recommended, so once I got involved, I recommended an outside Christian organization. There's a famous one called Grace, but there'd be a conflict of interest because the founder of Grace is still a board member and came on as the attorney for one of the alleged victims in the case here.

So, there'd be a conflict of interest with Grace. So, there's another one called Guideposts that was highly recommended. So, I recommended Guideposts. So, the Kansas City leadership said, hey, we're not averse to that, we may still do that, but let's see what we can find out through our investigation first. So, many were not happy with that. Many said it shouldn't go through a law firm. So, the leadership said, okay, tell you what, if that law firm is intimidating, we'll get a local attorney, a woman who herself is Christian and fights against human trafficking, this will be less intimidating.

This way people will be more willing to speak with her. And then they issued a report and say that we can't find substance to most of the allegations. And some of the alleged accusers have said, no, no, I'm not bringing any accusation, I'm being misrepresented here. So, that happened on the one hand, and then feeling, hey, let's just put out, be forthright, tell everybody where we're at. And we're willing to bring in a group like Guideposts, they were saying, but first we're trying to find out which allegations are real or not. Others have now responded, very, very upset with that, saying, no, that's why you bring in the outside organization, that's why you bring in a Christian group like Guideposts.

And they'll determine which allegations are real or not, not through a lawyer, that's the wrong way to do it. So, the controversy continues. And of course, as it would be, I've been accused of trying to defend Mike Bickel, I've been accused of accusing Mike Bickel.

I'm doing neither. I'm saying I'm a long-term friend of Mike's. I've thought very highly of Mike through the years.

I've spoken of him as an example to my non-charismatic friends, even to critics, as an example of a man that I understood lived a godly, devoted life. And if Mike's guilty of these things, it's shattering and painful, he's still my friend. But it's shattering, painful, grievous to hear that, but God knows. The last thing I would ever countenance in a situation like this is trying to incriminate or intimidate those who are coming forth as victims. I don't know their stories, and it's not my place to investigate. I've not been charged with that, God has not called me to do that, I've not been asked to do that, nor can I do that.

And there are others far better equipped to do it. My position from the beginning remains the same, let the truth come to light. And if that would best happen through an external Christian organization like Guideposts, if that would give people the greatest sense of confidence, then let's go in that direction.

That's what I continue to encourage, that continues to be my posture. I've said it would be ideal to get the different leaders on, quote, either side in the same room together to just talk and pray and say, okay, there's a lot of mistrust here, what can we do to fix that and try to bring things to the surface. Again, there are things that happen in all of our lives that we deal with before God, man, we repent, and they stay, that's where they stay. They stay hidden because we haven't crossed certain lines. Other lines get crossed, especially if there hasn't been repentance, then things will come out.

So that's all, these are all things that God sees and that we see. But that's what I continue to opt for and advocate for, and hopefully that's what will ultimately happen through external third-party investigation that everyone agrees on these are fair people called to do this, the truth comes to light. Now in the meantime, there are many, many hundreds of those who used to be involved with IHOP, Casey and Mulmer and other, because thousands have passed through the ministry there and the prayer rooms and things like that and many have served different capacities that say the whole culture needs to investigate it. That's, I've got no connection to that whatsoever. I don't know what's true, what's not true.

I've never been part of the inside culture. I know many that have passed through that have been blessed. I'm friends with leaders that would be now considered on all sides of this. So all I want is for the truth to come to light. If there are people who are real victims, may they get the healing and help that they need. May there be repentance, confession where needed. If things are exaggerated or misunderstood, let the truth come to life.

There have been false accusations. Let it all come to life. My stand is 100% neutral. I stand before the Lord just wanting to see what is good and best come out of that. If you have any question of any kind, I'm being fully transparent with you. Give me a call 866-34-TRUTH. The most important thing I feel though is the message that I brought to remind us if God called you to prayer or got you closer to Jesus through Mike Bickel, God did that. God did that. Continue to run with it.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Yes, so I just got this idea over the weekend and I'll be sharing with you all this week, but bless a family member if you celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah, give out gifts then. Bless a family member with some great wellness products from TriVita, especially if you've been blessed by them. Don't get it like instead, oh, I really was hoping you're going to buy me a car, but thanks for the TriVita product. Go ahead and buy them a car too, right? Or the pet dog or the puppy, whatever, or the toy. I'm talking about older folks, it's not the toy, right?

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100% of your first order goes to the line of fire, or you can go to TriVita.com, T-R-I-V-I-T-A.com and use the code BROWN25, you get the maximum 25% discount and on top of that, you get to bless us on the line of fire. Okay, so I just want to say a couple of things and then we'll go to the phones. 866-3-4-TRUTH. On Wednesday's broadcast, I'm going to address the question, can Christians really live holy lives?

Can Christians really live holy lives? Because again, we don't know the truth of charges, allegations against my friend Mike Bickel, we don't know the details. I'm not saying charges aren't true, I'm saying everything must come to life fully, that's what I'm saying.

Everything must come to life fully so that we can stand with those that need to be stood with and help as help needs to come and clarify what's true and what's not true. In that sense, everyone deserves their day in court, right? So those who are bringing complaints and serious allegations, they deserve their day in court. I don't mean going before a justice of the peace here, I don't mean going before an earthly court, I mean spiritually speaking.

And those who have been accused, in this case of Mike Bickel, of various aspects of sexual misconduct, he deserves his day in court. Let everything come to light so that we can deal with this righteously. But sometimes you just wonder, you hear so many bad reports, can we really live lives overcoming sin? Yes we can. Yes we can.

We're not perfect, we receive cleansing on a daily basis through the blood of Jesus, and yet we can live lives that are different. So Wednesday's broadcast is really going to encourage you. Tomorrow, man it's another urgent show, we're in a real dangerous time worldwide with Rising Tighter Jew Hatred. You say that again, oh trust me when you listen, you'll know you need to hear this. And I'm also going to give a little insight and some big blow up between Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens having to do with anti-Semitic tropes and things like that.

We'll talk about that on the air tomorrow as well. Then on the Wednesday broadcast, day before Thanksgiving, can Christians really live holy lives? But be encouraged, there are plenty of godly leaders, there are plenty of leaders who are not hypocrites, not perfect people, but people who have not had some major scandal, decades of life in ministry. There are colleagues, friends of mine that have been exemplary, oh flawed human beings like everybody else, but they're not hypocrites, they practice what they preach. And I encourage you again, to the extent you know your leaders, you can trust them, but don't put them on a pedestal.

Don't think of them as like, well they never sin, they never think. No, no, everybody falls short, but by God's grace we can and should live lives as leaders that are above reproach and have good reputation with outsiders. And in those areas that are small, that can be dealt with behind the scenes or between you and God, you deal with them, but our lives should be in terms of our public testimony of life without reproach. So by God's grace, that's the calling, that's what we are called to stand for and live for. 866-3-4-TRUTH. Okay, we're now shifting subjects, and we're going to go into a whole bunch of different things, so let's start in Mount Airy, North Carolina. Daniel, welcome to the line of fire. Hey, thanks Dr. Brown, I appreciate you having me on.

Sure. So, a dear friend of mine and I are, so kind of a, I'm a reformed Presbyterian, but I also have a background in Judaism, so you and I have a mutual friend, Mark, the late Mark, as well as Donya Greenberg of Tree of Life as well. But a friend of mine and I are working on a short YouTube documentary dealing with the lies of Rabbi Tovia Singer, and he often picks my, he's a pastor, and he often picks my brain on Jewish questions, and there's so many angles you could tackle with Tovia, I don't even know where to start, because, I mean, you could attack it so many different ways.

What would, I just wanted to get your thoughts here. Yes, so Tovia and I have a history going back over 30 years. He's refused to interact with me ever, for not long after the debate I did publicly with him on Sid Roth's New York City broadcast in the early 1990s. Folks can still listen to that, they can listen to that on the, on the Ask Dr. Brown, excuse me, on the Real Messiah website, realmessiah.com, just look for Jewish debates, you can listen to that. My 22-hour series, Countering the Counter-Missionaries, focuses on a lot of counter-missionary material, but I really focus on his in particular to demolish the misinformation and lies. That's a 22-hour series for everyone, Countering the Counter-Missionaries, you can order that at the Real Messiah website, and you can watch for free a series of videos, I think we've got 11 or 12 so far, where I take one video of his after another, because he's been very aggressive online, and doesn't just try to pull Jews away from Jesus, he attacks the faith of Gentile Christians, and that's where he's gotten more prominence.

So, Daniel, our series of Answering the Rabbis focuses in particular on Tovias stuff, and it really is bad and misleading, so here's what I would encourage you to do, sir. Again, we've done many, many, many hours refuting his misinformation. I would encourage you to pull out the very worst, most egregious misinterpretations, misrepresentations, and in short form, one after another, say, hey, many of you have been influenced by this Internet Rabbi, but he's not reliable, here's why, and then, boom, boom, boom, in the simplest form.

Find the most egregious examples, find where he doesn't tell you, where he doesn't tell you the rest of the story. I mean, I can do it because of my set of rabbinics, where, why did he, and he says, this is a Christian misinterpretation, it's completely wrong, it's like, why didn't he tell you that leading rabbis also hold to the same interpretation, or the same understanding of the Hebrew, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's terribly misleading material, and what I would do is I would get the most inflammatory stuff that he says, you know, the threats and the fear tactics with Christians, maybe make a little compilation of those, you know, fair usage, whatever you can do, and then just have in short form, because I've got the long form rebuttals, in short form, take the very, very worst stuff, the most egregious, the most, and almost every one of his videos, he's got hundreds, I've only looked at dozens, I guess, over the years, or scores, whatever, but I've listened to the whole tape series many years ago, and I remember driving in my car listening to his tape series when it was cassette tapes, thinking, I refuse this as I'm driving in my car, I'm leaving the Bible in front of me. But, many are not aware, so he's hurt the faith of people, thankfully we hear from folks on a regular basis saying they came back to the Lord, they fell away because they came back to the Lord through our material, so, you could really help a lot of people.

So, got a break coming up, I'll sum it up here again, get the most egregious, the most obvious examples of blatant misinterpretation, get those in just short form, here's what he says, here's what the Bible says, here's what he says, here's what the rabbis say, here's what he says, here's what the New Testament really says, and expose it, and if you just do enough, then one video, people say, oh, you can't trust it. Keep people's interest by keeping it lively, and may God use you to help set people free from error and deception by presenting the truth. Hey, God bless you, I appreciate you calling in. Hey, friends, Dr. Michael Brown here. Do you remember when people thought I was crazy, when I said it's not too late for America, that God can still do something in our country, that there is going to be a pushback, a gospel-based moral and cultural revolution, and do you remember when people thought that you were crazy because you felt the same way, because you believed what I was saying and already felt it in your heart? Well, friends, that pushback is here. The gospel-based moral and cultural revolution we've been talking about for 25 years is unfolding, and we are right in the thick of it, and the line of fire broadcast is divinely positioned for such a time as this. Friends, you would be so gratified and blessed as I hear, if you could hear what I hear, testimony after testimony as leaders, young people, old people, moms, dads, students, people from all backgrounds come up to me and say, Dr. Brown, you're providing a template for us, you're providing a blueprint for us, you're showing us how to do this, how to have hearts of compassion, backbones of steel, but friends, it's a joint effort.

We do this together, and with your support, we can amplify this broadcast around the nation and amplify this voice to shake the nation. Join our support team today, become a torchbearer with a dollar or more per day. Here's the number to call to sign up, 800-538-5275, that's 800-538-5275, or go to askdrbrown.org, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org, and become a monthly supporter. Click on donate monthly support.

I want to immediately give you two classic books, Compassionate Father, or Consuming Fire, Who is the God of the Old Testament, and Revolution, which will really show you what it means to be a Jesus follower today, plus you get free access to our online classes and so much more. Sign up today, askdrbrown.org. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for standing with us on the Line of Fire, 866-34-TRUTH, taking calls on a wide range of subjects today as we're giving you an update as best as we can on things happening at IHOPKC and praying for God's best for all involved. I'll take a question directly on that. Michael in San Diego, thanks for calling the Line of Fire.

Hi, Dr. Brown. My question is this. You said that you recommend bringing in Guideposts to do the third-party unbiased investigation, and IHOP has already indicated that they think some of the or many of the allegations don't have credibility. At this point, isn't the best thing for them to call in Guideposts because if they don't have credibility, then it will completely vindicate their position. So why not wait six months, not wait two years, just call them now and say, hey, now's the time to not dance around it and bring in Guideposts? Yeah, hopefully that'll happen.

I've never heard them talk about six months or two years. From day one when I got there, they said, hey, if it's helpful to bring in a third-party beyond this, then we'll do it. So I'm still encouraging them to.

Again, I stepped away because of schedule and an inability to be involved as needed. But have you called them and said, hey, now's the time, don't wait to do it now? I've encouraged them, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I strongly encourage that.

It's still the best way to go. And even if what your lawyer is finding out is true, many people won't believe it or feel it wasn't right coming through a law firm, so let's bring in someone like that. But I've stepped away from, I can't give you a follow-up on what they're doing, but 100%, sir, I did that in the last conversation. But why won't they listen to you then?

Excuse me? Why won't they listen to your advice then? Oh, they may. Just because they're in the midst of a process and because right now they're getting told by 20 different people from 20 different sides what they must do, what they have to do, public petitions being presented.

So they're just trying to step back and get God's mind and do things in the right way. But here's the thing. The big accusation is from those that would be critical. It's not for you to determine which allegations are real and then to present those to guideposts. It's up to guideposts or some other group to determine what's real or not. And like I said, no matter how sincere they are in it, that's the way it's going to play out historically. So that's my strong encouragement. They may be in the process of doing that right now.

I don't know. But I strongly encourage that. I feel it's the best, cleanest way.

It's the way that everybody steps back. There's so many eyes on this, Michael. The ministry touched so many people around the world. It's so much bigger than any one local group or name that it really is important to do that. If not for certain history with grace or conflict of interest, then grace would have been the one.

So guideposts, again, I don't know the groups that do this. But even grace, grace said that they never even received any contact from IHOPs, so that IHOPs said they couldn't receive any contact. I was told the opposite.

I was told they, I was given the day when they called and left an email, sent an email. But either way, either way, Michael, see, here's the thing. There's two sides on every story. Every time I talk to each one from each side, what they say is very convincing. Each time.

Each time. So that's why you're repeating things you've heard, okay? You're repeating grace said they were never contacted. Well, I was told the day, I was told we placed a call to grace today and we sent an email today and we didn't hear back. Then we learned there's a conflict of interest, so they can't be involved anyway. And I said, you know, I knew that. I was told that going in there was a conflict of interest.

That's why I recommended guideposts. But in point of fact, they told me, here's the day we called, here's the day we sent the email, and we didn't hear back from them. So if it goes longer and longer, you know, weeks and months, and they still never bring in a third party, at what point will you say, okay, enough is enough? Well, hang on, Michael, here's the question for you. Who am I? What's my role? Who appointed me to do anything here? Well, they called you in. As an advisor, but I'm no longer an advisor. I stepped away. I gave them my strong advice to do the very thing you're suggesting.

As a faithful saint to the body of Christ, is there a point in time, let's say, I don't know, weeks, months, years, at what point in time will you say, is it enough? I just, hang on, hang on. Why do you have the tone you have towards me? It's antagonistic. You sound antagonistic. I don't think I'm antagonistic, I'm just saying. Are you sure you don't mean anything, because it feels like you're kind of coming against me and challenging me? Whereas I've been advocating in the strongest ways I know to do the very thing that you said from day one. Yes, you have. My question now is about the timing, because you seem to be okay that they haven't done it yet. So my question is, at what point?

Let me try to help you here. I'm not involved in the investigation. I can't tell you right now whether every allegation is proven false, or whether there are a hundred more allegations to come, so it's all up in the air right now. It's too soon to say anything. My call is to bring in guideposts now, or a group like that, to do it already. So that's my call.

I'm not waiting. That has been my call. I can't say anything beyond that. Here's what I would say. Here's what I can tell you in advance, okay?

Because it's all speculation at this point. Here's what I can tell you in advance. If, in fact, there continue to be a group of people saying they have serious allegations, and IHOP Casey says, we've looked into them, and we dismissed them based on our own findings, and we're not bringing in someone else, I would say that's a mistake, right up front. I can tell you that up front.

I don't need to wait six months, okay? If they discover the allegations are false or exaggerated, we've met with people privately, and there are no more accusations, okay? And everyone on all sides says, okay, we move forward, then you move forward. But if you have a situation, sir, which is what you're saying, that there will be five, ten, however many allegations saying we still bring these, we still have accusation, and IHOP Casey says, hey, our lawyers say there's nothing to it, or the external law firm says there's nothing to it, we're going to let it out of there, I think that's a mistake.

As long as you have this thing open and this big, and it's not resolved privately, then by all means, they made a mistake if they don't bring in guideposts. So I didn't say that now, I don't need to wait another day, but right now, it's speculation. What I want you to know, and I want everyone to know, was that was my very, very strong advice, the last conversation we had, when I just said, hey, I do need to step away, I can't be involved the way I need to, and may the truth come to light. So I hope that's clear to you, all right?

Okay, you're calling for them now. Good, I agree with you. But like I said, I called, that was, I did that, I've been trying to say that with all respects there, that is exactly what I said when I came in, and then they said, hey, if we need to bring in a third party, we're not against it, that's what they've said throughout, okay? And then, here's what I can tell you, having dealt with people on all sides, everyone has sounded sincere to me. Everyone has said, we want the truth to come to light. Everyone has said, we don't want to see anybody hurt, but we've got to deal with this. Everyone together, without fail, has said that repeatedly to me.

The process by which they've done it through an attorney, I don't think it's the best process, but I understand why, I just don't think it was the best process. So that was my advice coming in, but my last strong advice was, no matter what your attorney finds, you still need to bring in guideposts to say, hey, externally, here's our investigation, and everyone having a setting that feels completely safe or they don't have to worry, I'm talking to an attorney, et cetera. So that's been my counsel, remains my counsel. Hey, thank you for the call. And I did feel like you were pressing me a bit. If you didn't need anything antagonistic, we're clear. All right, let's go over to Terry in somewhere, unknown location.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Michael. I just want to keep my question very quick. My question is, is about the manuscripts, just manuscripts in general. Is Jesus' name written in any of the manuscripts?

What do you mean? Ancient Greek manuscripts? Yeah, just manuscripts in general. Yes, Jesus.

It's written all the time, Jesus. Absolutely. That's the Greek version of Yeshua.

Yeah. Do you know what manuscript I can go find it at? Any. Any Ancient Greek manuscript. Any Ancient Greek manuscript of the New Testament, any part that mentions His name, you'll find it always, Jesus in Greek, without fail. Okay, thank you so much. You are very welcome. All right.

That was easy. Yeah, that's how it's written in any Ancient Greek manuscript, Yeshua. Just like in English, in King James it's always Jesus, because that's how you say it in English. If it was Italian, it would be Jesu, right? So Hebrew original, Hebrew Aramaic original, Yeshua.

And then that comes into Greek, because Greek doesn't have a sh sound, it comes in as a suh. And then the case ending at it, yes, so, Jesu, that's normal there. All right, let's go to Greg in Cary, North Carolina. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hello, Dr. Brown, how are you doing? Doing great. Can I just ask you one real quick question, if you know somebody? Do you know G.J.

Graham by chance? No, I don't think so. Okay, I was just curious. Now, the question I had was about number six. The number of the beast is 666, but it's the number of fallen man, they said, the Bible talks about. And I was just wondering, do you see any correlation between the number six of the man, of fallen man, and that God made, that created man on the sixth day?

Do you see any correlation in that? Well, it's not impossible, sir. It's not impossible. I mean, normally the understanding is that seven is the number of perfection, therefore the number of God, and six is one below that, so 666, of course having the symbolic meaning that would have pointed to Nero in his day, etc., to Nero Caesar. But, yeah, for sure, you can make the case, okay, 666, so that's the counterfeit that's short of perfection, God's perfection, 777. But, is it possible that it ties in with man being created on the sixth day? Even though in that context it's the culmination of creation, it's a good thing, it's a positive thing, created on the sixth day, therefore the culmination of creation, you could make that argument. It's not a standard argument to be raised, but it's certainly possible. You know, again, in Genesis 1, it's a positive, it's the culmination of creation.

Now, I said, Dom, but some men are keeping tender, let us make man in our image and likeness. Yeah, so, it's culminating, it's a high point, but it's still short of God's seven imperfections. So, it's possible it ties in.

Not likely, but possible, is an argument you could make. All right, I appreciate the call, we're getting some more calls. I've got a couple of neat testimonies I want to share with you on the other side of the break. Let's go take your calls, 866-3-4, truth is number to call.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I want to share a word of encouragement with you, those of you who are monthly supporters, occasional donors, prayer words for a ministry. Most of what we do, or much of what we do is behind the scenes.

Much of what we do is not something that you see on the airwaves or here on the airwaves. And that's pouring into the next generation of leaders, pouring into students in the various ministry schools we've led and that I teach at to this day, serving as a mentor to other leaders. And we want to encourage you to let you know what's happening. And we have plans, by God's grace, to do this even more systematically and to really help pour into and mentor upcoming leaders and be a blessing as we join together in generations. I was just looking at this note from one of my spiritual sons, Joe, a powerful evangelist and his own right man of prayer, together with his wife Trish, serving God on the front lines. I just wrote the foreword for a great book that he wrote coming out next year on prayer and revival. But Joe said this, posted this on our Facebook page, as one of Dr. Brown's spiritual sons, who always takes time to mentor and serve.

His schedule is very busy but he slows down to lift up the next wave of leadership. Its value is priceless. And I could go on with testimony after testimony after testimony. I'm blessed to read it. But I want you to know that you're part of that. And I want to invite you to help me mentor and pour into more leaders.

We have strategies that we want to set in motion, but so much of what we do, we can do with your help and your support. So help us multiply our influence. Help us exponentially multiply because as we touch these younger men and women of God, and some of them are older, younger, and some of them are younger, younger, but they are multiplying.

Between them, they touch their thousands and their millions and their individuals as well. So this is how we get that reverse domino effect. The dominoes have been falling in so many ways spiritually, morally, culturally by God's grace. Push, push, push, push, push, push.

They go in the opposite direction as light is shining in darkness and revival hitting many churches and ministries. So I want to invite you, join our support team today. It's the best dollar a day or more that you can invest, and you will get eternal reward from it and great encouragement in this world when you see how many lives we're touching together. Go to AskDr.Brown.org. AskDr.Brown.org. Click on monthly support, donate. Join our team.

We are touching more lives than you can imagine with fewer supporters than you can imagine, but it's time for us to take that next step and you're going to help us do it. Or you can call this number if you'd like, 800-538-5275. Say, hey, I want to be one of your monthly supporters.

800-538-5275 or AskDr.Brown.org. Click donate monthly support. I say it over and over, together we're making a difference. Before you join our team, look at all the benefits, all the ways we pour back into you, and then just think of all the lives we're touching together. Yes, I'll say it for the thousandth time, together we're making a difference. All right, let us go over to Fort Worth, Texas. Ethan, welcome to the line of fire.

Hey, Dr. Michael Brown. First of all, thank you so much for your ministry. You have blessed my whole life with being a man of the word of God, so first of all, thank you so much.

Thank you. So my question, I have a question in terms of the corporate gathering of the body of Christ with tongues, for instance. So I'm a charismatic, I pray in tongues in my own time, but sometimes I've seen churches do this thing and they will say, like, let's all begin to pray in the spirit or let's all begin to speak in tongues, and I've just been a little confused about it and I've heard arguments, but I haven't really heard anything strong against their need, because their needs, from my understanding, at least when it's like, you know, in the corporate gathering, there needs to be interpretation from 1 Corinthians 14, otherwise they need to keep quiet, and so I just was wondering what that, like, your, you know, your stance on that or just stuff like that, yeah.

Yeah, Ethan, this comes up all the time as a fair question. So many who are non-charismatic or formerly charismatic will say, absolutely, this is an abuse. It happens all the time, it's abusive, it's a misuse of the word, it's a misuse of the gift, it's what Paul warned against in 1 Corinthians 14, and someone comes in, a non-believer or someone who doesn't understand from the outside, they'll think you're all crazy. So for some, it's black and white, case closed, end of subject. Let me give you another perspective. Without question, without question, if you deliver a message in public, if it's quiet and you speak out in tongues, or you're leading the service and you speak in tongues for a minute or something like that, if there is no interpretation, if God doesn't give you the interpretation or someone in the body, then you have to zip it. That is not to be spoken publicly.

That's definitely an abuse, that's definitely out of order. When someone says, let's worship in the Spirit together, well, you can sing in the Spirit in English, you can sing in the Spirit in tongues. And when we're worshiping together, you just kind of have a common sound that goes up to God.

In other words, let's say you have people from 100 nations, right? And you say, let's all worship God in our native tongue. You just hear a song going up together. You hear volume, you don't hear individuals, you just hear a corporate sound. That's what often happens with praying in the Spirit, singing, let's all pray, let's worship to God together in the Spirit. It's no different than if people are doing it in their native languages. However, if someone should get up and start to speak in their native language, forget tongues, just say German, Italian, Chinese, whatever, and there's no one there to interpret it, then we tell them, just need to be quiet. So, that's why some would feel it's justifiable based on that, that you're not delivering a message that this is a corporate expression to God, that you don't even hear any individuals, you just hear a joint sound.

The musicians are playing, you hear a joint sound. That would be the argument that some would give who feel it's right to do that publicly. And that's why you often see it in our circles.

So, there's no question there are things of order and that are an abuse of the gift. Other things, you could say, no, that makes sense. I just look at it, make believe it wasn't tongues, but just another earthly language.

How would we handle that, right? So, you know, here's someone visiting from Iraq with an incredible testimony, a former Muslim, but they only speak Arabic. And they're pouring their heart out and sharing their crime, but we don't understand a word of it, it doesn't help us, right? In that case, better to say, I no longer a Muslim, I love Jesus. And that's all you say, everyone claps, rather than a thousand words in Arabic if we don't understand it. Same with tongues, but if you had, like I said, people from many, many nations, and I've been in services like that, let's all just worship God through their native language and hear this beautiful, oh, this sound of praise going up to God, it can be the same with tongues.

And that's why some would feel it's fine, okay? Thank you so much. I appreciate it. You are very, very welcome.

And folks may agree or disagree with my point there, but just answer me as best as I can. All right, let's go over to Raleigh, North Carolina. Spence, welcome to the line of fire.

Yes, thank you for having me, doctor. I have a question that I was in conversation with some of the brothers of mine, and it was pertaining a church as a pastor or minister. And the question kind of went towards the direction that if the female, if the woman pastor was to ordain a individual, a male individual, how authentic is that ordination if he wants to be ordained into the ministry through her being a female? All right, so first, on a legal basis, if this person had the legal authority to do it, in other words, as a pastor that can ordain someone or part of a denomination, so if they had the legal authority before the state so that the state will recognize, okay, you have been ordained by this church or by this ministry, then legally it stands whether we like the church or the ministry or not. If you feel that under all circumstances it is out of order for a woman to be a pastor, that God will never use a female pastor, that is always a blatant violation of the word, then you would say this person was wrongly ordained even if it's legally binding because that person was out of God's order and therefore did not have authority to do it.

Someone else would counter with this, not only has God raised up women through history in the Old Testament and many women noted as leaders in the New Testament, but someone would also say this, what about you differ with the doctrine of the church? What if you're a Pentecostal charismatic and the man that ordained someone is hostile to the gifts of the Spirit and says they're not for today? Or turn it around, you don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today but someone who is Pentecostal or charismatic ordained that person to ministry? Or you're a Calvinist, a staunch Calvinist and the person that ordained this one to ministry was non-Calvinist or reverse, in other words at what point do we draw the line? So, legally it stands that the state recognizes it, that that's number one. Number two, if you're 100% convinced that under all circumstances it is illegitimate for a woman to be a pastor and therefore any authority that she takes is usurped, then you would say that she does not have authority to ordain someone and that they should be ordained in a different way to be recognized by God.

However, if you recognize that throughout the Bible, right through the New Testament, God raises up women as leaders in many capacities and that no ministry is perfect, no church is perfect, we're not going to agree with everyone on everything, then you can say, hey, you can be ordained through over and may not be the best or ideal or it may be the best and ideal. So, that's how you would sort it out. And with that, we're out of time. We've got some special broadcasts coming your way this week. You don't want to miss one of them.