Is House Speaker Mike Johnson Part of a NAR Conspiracy to Take Over America?

The following program is recorded content created by Truth Network. I'm not here to stir up controversy.

I'm not here to get people all worked up. We have told you for many months that many years that we will not get your blood boiling unless we also get your faith rising. But we are going to tackle the controversies together. We are going to look at the difficult issues we face as believers in America.

And as always, we'll do our best to separate fact from fiction. Michael Brown, welcome to the Line of Fire broadcast. I'm coming your way again from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, where I'm teaching this week at the Global Awakening Theological Seminary. I'm teaching three hours each night during the broadcast in the day. So we're audio only. Everyone listening on radio or podcast, same as always.

Those watching, just picture my smiling face. 866-34-TRUTH. If you'd like to weigh in on today's subject as we talk about House Speaker Mike Johnson and an alleged Christian attempt to take over the nation and the nefarious New Apostolic Reformation, we'll talk about that 866-34-TRUTH. If you'd like to discuss my talk yesterday about Israel, God's purposes for Israel, as real today fulfills biblical prophecy ties in with biblical prophecy, the war in Israel.

I'll take calls on that subject as well. If you're watching on YouTube, give it a thumbs up and click share to send it out to others. Excuse me, do the same on Facebook. Go ahead and click like and share so we can reach the maximum audience we can. So a couple of years back, well, I guess it was last year, within the last two years, Dr. Joe Matera and I drafted a statement on, quote, NAR, so New Apostolic Reformation, and Christian nationalism to say plainly what we did believe and what we did not believe, what was accurate, what was biblical, what was inaccurate, what was being falsely attributed, et cetera. We did it because we knew that this was going to be coming, that there were going to be accusations that there was this nefarious group called NAR that was trying to take over America and turn it into some type of fundamentalist religious state. We knew that would be coming. We knew there would be extreme forms of Christian nationalism and then hysteria over alleged Christian nationalism.

We knew that was coming. So we said, well, let's get ahead of it and let's issue a statement that makes clear what we believe. Hundreds of other leaders signed on, some with major denominations and things like that.

They signed on saying, yes, this reflects our beliefs as well. So if you want to know where I stand on so-called NAR, if you want to know where I stand on Christian nationalism, just go there. Go to NAR and Christian nationalism.com. NAR and Christian nationalism.com.

Just go there and you find out what I believe. Well, things have suddenly reached a fever pitch kind of out of nowhere with the unexpected rise to power of Representative Mike Johnson from Louisiana. So you remember with the tobacco, with the House Speaker and vote after vote after vote after vote to get Kevin McCarthy in as a House Speaker, Republican House Speaker in the House of Representatives, and then he gets kicked out. I mean, it's like, what in the world is going on? And then this one comes forward, that doesn't work. This one comes forward. It's like a tobacco. Just shameful.

What in the world is going on? And then lo and behold, Mike Johnson. Who's Mike Johnson?

That was my first thought. Who's Mike Johnson? I'd never heard of him.

Well, immediately I get a text from a colleague of mine who worked for many, many years in the Alliance Defending Freedom. So he was a leading Christian attorney working with the Alliance Defending Freedom, which was started by Bill Bright, James Dobson and others many years ago, with the idea of fighting for religious liberty in America and seeing which way the nation was going, this increasing secularism that was going to push out religious faith. So Mike Johnson worked as a colleague of my friend for many years. And my colleague said, don't mistake his soft-spokenness for lack of conviction. He is a strong, strong Christian believer.

A solid, mature Christian man. And then another colleague, Jim Garlow, weighed in. And Mike Johnson has reportedly said that Jim Garlow has had a tremendous impact on his life. And Jim said, yeah, I've worked with him very closely for many, many years.

He's a tremendous guy. Well, you know that there's going to be trouble when he makes statements like this. And this is a recent interview with Sean Hannity. He said, I am a Bible-believing Christian. Someone asked me today in the media, they said, it's curious.

People are curious. What does Mike Johnson think about any issue under the sun? I said, well, go pick up a Bible off your shelf and read it. That's my worldview. How dare fundamentalist Christian fanatic? How dare he say such a thing?

Read the Bible if you want to find out my worldview. What? No. Terrible. Dangerous.

Horrible. That was the expected reaction. Now, here's what's interesting. If you go back in history, Abraham Lincoln, 1864, was presented with a Bible. It was quoted from loyal colored people in Baltimore. And this is what he said when he was presented with the Bible in 1864. In regard to this great book, I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book, but for it, we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare here and thereafter are to be found portrayed in it. To you I return my most sincere thanks for the very elegant copy of the great book of God which you present. That was 1864.

How about 1983? President Ronald Reagan, quote, of the many influences that have shaped the United States of America into a distinct nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the Bible. These shared beliefs help forge a sense of common purpose among the widely dispersed colonies, a sense of community, which laid the foundation for the spirit of nationhood that was to develop in later decades.

The Bible and its teaching helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers abiding belief and the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible's teaching of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. But when Mike Johnson says it, uh-oh, danger. One website called him the most Christian nationalist speaker in history and a false prophet. According to a major article in Rolling Stone magazine, quote, the newly elected House Speaker has ties to the far-right New Apostolic Reformation, which is hell-bent on turning America into a religious state. And they say there is a flag hanging outside his office that leads into a universe of right-wing religious extremism as unknown to most Americans as Johnson was before he ascended to the speakership. They are referring to the Appeal to Heaven flag, which Johnson flies outside his office.

Rolling Stone says this, historically, this flag was a Revolutionary War banner commissioned by George Washington as a naval flag for the colony turned state of Massachusetts. The quote, an Appeal to Heaven, was a slogan from that war taken from a treatise by the philosopher John Locke. But in the past decade, it has come to symbolize a die-hard version of a hegemonotically Christian America.

I mispronounce that hegemonotically. So Christians are going to take over. That's what this flag symbolizes. And Johnson flies it outside of his office, along with the American flag and the Louisiana flag, this Christian takeover flag. I want to read a little bit more from Rolling Stone to understand the contemporary meaning of the Appeal to Heaven flag. This is an article by Brad Nianishi and Matthew Taylor. It's necessary to enter a world of Christian extremism, animated by modern-day apostles, prophets, and apocalyptic visions of Christian triumph that was central to the chaos and violence of January 6th.

Earlier this year, we released an audio documentary series rooted in deep historical research and ethnographic interviews on this sector of Christianity, which is known as the New Apostolic Reformation. The flag hanging outside Johnson's office is a key part of its symbology. And they say this. Johnson's spokesman said it was given to him by another member of Congress. He's got it outside his historical flag. He's got it hanging outside his door with these other flags. No, no, no, no, no.

Rolling Stone says this. It is simply untenable to think that Johnson is unaware of what the Appeal to Heaven flag signals today. It represents an aggressive spiritual warfare style of Christian nationalism, and Johnson is a legal insurrectionist who has deeply tied himself into networks of Christian extremists whose rhetoric, leadership, and warfare theology fuel the literal insurrection. You talk about fear-mongering. You talk about alarmism. You talk about exaggeration. You talk about missing the point. You talk about mixing truth with falsehood.

That's exactly what happened, but that's the way men on the left see it. And there are even some Christians who see it like that because they believe this myth of this boogeyman NAR that's trying to take over, etc. I'll come back to NAR once more.

We've done it endlessly, but I'll come back once more for those that are listening for the first time and for those that are still confused about what NAR is and isn't. But this is no surprise, friends, that there's this kind of rhetoric. Whenever you have a conservative Christian who really believes in the Bible, really believes in God's Word, coming into any type of political power, there is hand-wringing and, oh no, it's going to be a fundamentalist religious state. They're trying to force us to follow their God and their values, etc. Whereas the reality is the great majority of Christian conservatives are working within the system just like atheists, just like left-leaning Christians, just like people from all different sectors. They try to get their candidates elected. They advocate for their values. They pray for God to make America better by turning hearts to Him. They seek to make an impact in the educational system. Here, if you're a member of a community where your school board was radically left and bringing in destructive policies into your school and you voted them out and got involved, maybe one was a Muslim, maybe two were conservative Christians, maybe another was non-religious, but you didn't like where things were going, okay, that's what's happening. People are saying, we don't like this direction, we're going in another direction.

If you talk to the AOCs of the world, the so-called squad, they have a very different vision for America. Everybody advocates and they work within the system. That's what Mike Johnson is doing. There's a system. You work within the system. You do your best to get things to be bipartisan. You work across the aisle as much as you can. There are areas where you have convictions.

You live by those convictions. Did Mike Johnson have great loyalty to Donald Trump? Yes. Did he seek to overturn the elections?

Yes. He believed that things were done fraudulently. There were concerns raised. The process took its course.

The process did not find evidence accordingly or wouldn't even review evidence and Mike Johnson went on with life. That's it. You have a system. You work within the system. You have your views. Did he say that he didn't recognize the legitimacy of same-sex unions and God's side as a – yeah, those would be his views.

Of course they'd be. But once the Supreme Court overturns it, then that's the legal reality. You can work against it. You can say you differ with it. You can have your own religious convictions. But that's the legal reality. The idea that there's this attempt to impose Christianity on America, some type of takeover, some type of theocracy is a myth. There may be a handful of people with those values, but no major Christian leaders that I work with have that mentality, have that mindset. So what's the truth then? What's really what's really going on here?

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You can go to triveda.com. Remember to use the code BROWN25. Okay, was there dangerous rhetoric leading up to the events of January 6 by a number of Christian leaders in America? Absolutely.

Absolutely. Deeply concerning. And rhetoric, some of it that sounded militaristic. Deeply concerning. And some of which was exalting Trump to ridiculous proportions as if that's where our loyalty lay. Almost more than to the Lord or that equal, loyal to the Lord, equal loyalty to Trump.

I document all that in my book, The Political Seduction of the Church. No question. Grave concerns.

Are there some leaders that I know, not close friends, but leaders that I know that really pushed with post-election to overturn the results and this has to happen and we have to pray that and predictions of what's going to happen. Yes, some folks that I know, colleagues, not close colleagues that were involved in that. I differ. Absolutely. I definitely have some differences with the way things that were done. And I have some differences on views of what some would call Christian nationalism. A lot of the term is what you mean by it. How do you define it? What do you mean by it? And that's where it gets a little ambiguous, right? That one person means it this way, another person means it that way, but we're using the same words.

So we have to define what we actually mean by it. But these attempts to somehow make America into a Christian nation, not just meaning that we're majority Christian, which we've been through our history, not just meaning that we recognize that we have beautiful Judeo-Christian roots that we haven't always followed, but to the extent we follow them, that's been good and healthy and we'd love to see more Americans follow them. I'm all for that. But the idea that somehow that we take power and impose Christianity in the nation, no, I categorically reject that. But honestly, the leaders that I know, some colleagues from a distance, some a little closer, the leaders that I know that really are advocating for Christian change in America want to do it through the political system, want to do it from the ground up in terms of changing hearts and changing minds through the Gospel and for advocating for our views being the best views through voting, through getting people involved in the schools, through, hey, why not have a godly leader of Harvard or Yale like we did in centuries past? Why not have a God-fearing person that's going to be shaping economic reform in America or things like that? You know, why not have someone who embraces biblical values and the dignity of each human being working for justice in America and things like that? That would be good.

That would be good. But it's all as people vote and embrace things, and we never impose religion. That's one of the foundations of our nation, that there is not a state religion that gets imposed on everybody. So the thing gets so exaggerated, so muddled, so confused, and then the hysteria that comes with it is so unhelpful. So what does Mike Johnson actually believe? Jerry Newcomb has a helpful article about Mike Johnson and his own words. This is from interviews he did in the past. I want to read a few of these quotes, and then let me just see here. Yeah, if you want to weigh in on this, if you have a question about anything I'm saying, if you think I'm wrong, and again I'll revisit the quote NAR issue in a moment. But feel free to call in, or if you had a question that ties in with what we talked about with Israel and the war against Hamas yesterday and Israel's role in end-time prophecy, by all means give me a call 866-3-4-TRUTH.

I didn't get to any calls yesterday because there was so much content to cover, but I hope to get to some today. So Mike Johnson and his own words. What does he believe about our God-given rights? We are endowed by our creator with these certain inalienable rights. America's founders put that in their writings. It's reflected in all of their documents, their personal letters, and that's what it's really about. What about religious liberty?

He said, my background before I got to Congress is in constitutional law. I work for the Alliance Defending Freedom, and we defended religious freedom and the right of conscience in courts all around the country. We've seen an increasing assault on that most fundamental freedom that we have. We call religious liberty our first freedom, for a reason of course, because it's listed first. And that's because the founders understood your right to be believed and to act upon that belief is essential to who you are as an American.

But even more fundamental than that, who you are as a human being. And so it's critically important to protect it. What about threats to religious freedom? Johnson said this, we've seen this increasing assault over the last several decades. Really, it's been growing. And right now it's just at a critical point. You have an empowered kind of radicalized left who is trying to steamroll over this idea of religious freedom. And they've had some success in recent decades. So we're trying to roll back some of that to defend what's left of that ground and even take some back.

And we're gratified that we're seeing some strides in that result. What about the growing hostility to America's Judeo-Christian heritage? Johnson said, instead of seeing a tolerance for people of all ideologies and all faiths, what we've seen is a growing hostility, an outright hostility towards one particular faith. And that's the Christian faith in all of their faith.

And that's the Christian faith in almost every case. The Judeo-Christian heritage that we all revere and those who live in accordance with those principles are under assault. What about the present moment in which we live? Johnson said, I say all the time, it's a great time to be alive if you have the answers. We know we're in difficult times, but it's never been more important to be able to give voice and a witness to the truth. We live in a postmodern era as we know, and we live in a nation sadly of biblical and constitutional illiterates.

It's easy to take freedoms away from the people if they don't even know what those freedoms are. So it's never been more important to be a bold voice. And then are called to be winsome warriors. How do we fight this battle?

Johnson said, we're called to be winsome warriors. We're called to be gentle with those who disagree. We demolish their arguments, but we recognize they're not the enemy. The enemy is the principalities, right?

Speaking of spiritual principalities. And I find that you can get a long way with being winsome about that. We don't have any reason to be angry at anybody.

I think Mike Huckabee said one time, I'm conservative, but I'm not mad at anybody about it. That's kind of my philosophy. And I think that we can approach those even with whom we vehemently disagree.

Just talk with them reasonably. Reason together. We can make some headway. And we're beginning to see some of that even in the Congress, believe it or not. In fact, Johnson became somewhat known in Congress when he submitted something saying, we've got to drop the attacking rhetoric. We've got to drop this beating each over the head. We have differences, but let's have them in the right spirit.

So that's what he sought to emulate. And yet he's being viewed as this monster who wants to make America into a religious state. Why? That's the fear-mongering. That is what is going to happen when someone actually says, yeah, I believe the Bible. I'm a Christian. I believe the Bible.

I'm not ashamed of it. And if you want to know where I stand on issues, go to the Bible. Those are my views. What is so fanatical, extreme, and crazy about that? That's the day and age in which we live. And then of course, we knew, Dr. Matera and I, others knew, it's all going to be attached to NAR and this Christian takeover. And here's what happens. You take an element here, unrelated to an element there, unrelated to another element there.

You bring them all together, mix them all together, take the most extreme quotes and positions from each of them, put the worst possible interpretation of all of them and multiply it together. And that's what you get as NAR. The NAR of the Christian critics, the NAR of the people on the left like Rolling Stone. And it simply doesn't exist.

And what troubles me is it's become the boogeyman for everything. Now it's for Christian nationalism, the takeover of America. NAR was behind January 6th.

As soon as this revival came to Asbury, NAR was trying to take over Asbury. And I just tell you, someone who knows leaders, who knows people on the inside, in fact, I'm an alleged leader of NAR, even though I don't hold to the tenets of NAR. In any case, in any case, the alleged tenets of NAR, those keep changing depending on whose website you go to. But bottom line is this, the fear mongering helps nothing. The exaggerations help nothing.

Putting forth this narrative of extremism, it helps nothing. Let's be sober. Let's look at things truthfully, accurately, fairly.

Is that so hard? Let's get away from the emotion on all sides. Let's see where the evidence leads.

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And you can search for all the subjects you're looking for. Ask Dr. Brown Ministries. Okay, I want to say one more thing when it comes to NAR. I'll give you Truth 1, Truth 1, Fiction 1.

First truth. There is an organization that Peter Wagner led, a movement that he spearheaded called the New Apostolic Reformation. You could say his successor is Cheon, a long-time colleague of mine. And if you want to know what that group believes, you can read Peter Wagner's books.

You can read Che's books. So they would believe in five-fold ministry today that there are apostles today, not the same as the twelve apostles, not writing scripture like the twelve apostles. But there are apostles today and they have minutes. They could be church planters. They could be denominational leaders.

They could be movement pioneers, things like that. That there are prophets today not adding to scripture, not adding to the Bible, but bringing prophetic messages to the church and the world, etc. And there are other distinctives with that. Many of them I would agree with. Some of them I differ with.

And it is a big church, a big body. We don't have to agree on everything. But I was never part of Peter Wagner's organization because I had too many differences. And then once the organization changed in terms of someone else leading it, not talking about the movement that Peter Wagner helped spearhead, or an organization, I joined that organization with other leaders because I agreed with the leaders and the vision, etc. And that we lay out in our document, narancristiannationalism.com. So I was never part of Peter Wagner's organization. As for the New Apostolic Reformation movement, I agree with parts of it and disagree with other parts of it.

Very simple. And I would say the things that you would find the most concerning are the things that I don't agree with either. That's one. Two, Peter Wagner described a phenomenon that had been taking place for well over 100 years in church movements all around the world which were not part of a normal denominational structure. They were happening with these large movements that would be spearheaded by others and would be networks of churches and things. And he saw the greatest growth in the church worldwide happening outside of the denominations. So as I read the story, he was going to call this post-denominational Christianity. But then that was deemed offensive to people that were part of denominations where God was working and blessing, etc., colleagues of his that were denominational leaders. So instead, the name New Apostolic Reformation was agreed on. So this is distinct from a movement that Peter Wagner himself helped spearhead. This is a larger description of church movements that most of you would look at and say, okay, great, what's so nefarious about that? Nothing. It's just outside of a normal denominational structure, church groups, church movements growing in leaps and bounds around the world.

All right. So those two things exist. Then there is this gnar of the critics, this worldwide conspiracy, hundreds of millions of Christians working together whether they know it or not.

Basically with this desire of taking over the world and imposing Christian values and that these apostles are like the twelve apostles and the prophets have this special authority, etc., that every church must be under these apostles and prophets. Then you mix in with it the worst of the word of faith movement. You mix in with it the worst extremes of Charismania. You mix all that in.

You put it in a blender and that's gnar. That doesn't exist. That only exists in the mind of the critics. So I'm not denying what does exist. I'm not denying that I have differences with certain aspects of what does exist. But I am denying that the gnar of the critics and the gnar of Rolling Stone exists.

That is a myth. And one of the most fascinating things, it's a joke we have that you know you're a leader in gnar when you have no idea what gnar is. That's one of the proofs that you are a real leader in gnar. Yeah, I'm joking because I've talked to key leaders, some of the alleged key leaders of gnar and they said to me, Mike or Dr. Brown, what is gnar?

What is this thing? I said, oh, you're one of the leaders in it. And then when I tell them what it is, they go, what are you talking about? I'm not a leader in any such thing.

I said, exactly, exactly. But to the critics, I'm just living in denial. To the critics, I'm just not telling the truth. Hey, what can you do? I do my best to help. I do my best to take time to reach out, to interact, to build bridges.

But what can I say? Read our statement gnarandchristiannationalism.com. I believe in fivefold ministry that apostles, prophets still exist, not like the twelve apostles, not like an Old Testament prophet, but they still exist because to me the Bible clearly says they do. And because you clearly have evidence of this through church history and to this day that many people who started movements, started networks of churches, became denominational leaders, they're really apostolic men. They were founders. They were fathers. They were pioneers.

They just didn't have that title. And there are many who we recognize really understand the mind and will of God. They seem to have a now word. They seem to understand what's happening in the world and be able to speak into it prophetically. And those are prophetic voices. So we've had that. We just haven't recognized it.

When we recognize it, it gives more space and value to these things. Just like if you're really called to be an evangelist. That's your calling.

You are called to be a soul winner. And people don't recognize that calling. You're either a pastor or a teacher.

Where are you going to be all bottled up? Because you don't want to be sitting there with a group of other Christians all day exegeting the nuances of the Greek text, which if you were a teacher you'd probably love doing that. You want to be taking that group of Christians out to share the Gospel with the lost. So the same way if you have an apostolic calling and everything is bottled up within one church and ministry and that's the boundary of it and you can't expand beyond that and you can't send out new workers and you can't multiply the work, there will be frustration. But when there's the recognition of what the calling is, it flows better. Just like if your real calling is to be a pastor or shepherd and you're put in full-time evangelistic ministry because you're a powerful preacher and you're spending all day winning the loss like, okay I want to win the loss but I want to shepherd the flock. I want to shepherd the flock even more.

I want to shepherd the saved. So it's simply a recognition of people's calling, anointing, the grace that's on their lives. You know what people refer to me quote as a prophetic voice. I often hear that Dr. Brown, you're a real prophetic voice in our times. What I understand that to mean is that God gives me insight of what's happening in the world and how we are to respond.

But I don't think that's something that should be so unique. I think that's something that should come out of our walk with God. Like the sons of Issachar in 1 Chronicles 12 32, they understood the times and knew what Israel should do. With the outpouring of the Spirit on the church, there's a sense in which we should all be prophetic. Not that we're all having dreams and visions. I don't have prophetic dreams or visions. I hear the voice of God internally and I believe in the truth of that voice as God speaks to me.

And I've had God's witness in the Spirit or just knowing certain things or seeing certain things. But that has nothing to do with adding to the Bible. If in 2004 I began to speak about gay activism as the principal threat to freedom of religion, speech, and conscience and said this is the one battle everyone in America is going to have to face, was that prophetic? Yeah, it seems that it was. It seems that was a prophetic insight. But shouldn't we have that? Did that add to the Bible? Did that change doctrine? No, not at all. So sometimes we use words in certain ways and we have wrong meaning and understanding of those words and it gets, it's scandalous.

But there's really nothing scandalous here. All right, with that we are going to change topics and go to the phones. Let's start with Jesse, our buddy in Minnesota. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hey Dr. Braun, how you doing? I'm doing great, thanks sir. So I first wanted to start out by saying just an encouragement to you because you've really proven yourself to me over time. So first with your engagements with me where I felt like you really, if you wanted to, you really could have hammered me with something, but you didn't, you were gentle and doing a teaching thing. Then I saw your engagement with the Palestinians and how you have compassion for them even though you're a Jew and you think the Palestinian blood is just as valuable as Jewish blood and that really, I took note of that as well. And then I saw how you have engaged with Mike Bickel about the allegations and things like that and coming at it from a very biblical base way you would handle that and just the idea that you want the truth to come out even though he's your friend and all that.

So these are things that I've seen in you that you've really proven yourself to me over time. Now as to my question, this is a kind of fringe view and I don't think that I really hold it myself but I've heard it so I want to hear your take on it. It's that Israel could be scattered again and this may not be the final gathering of Israel.

I want to know what you think of that and I also want to know what you think of that in relation to two other things. So first the Euphrates River drying up and then secondly in Revelation 7, I think this is a really interesting thing. It says in in verse revelation 7-3 it says don't harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we see all the servants of our God on their foreheads. And then in verse 9 it says which no one could number.

And then it finally says these are the ones coming out of the great tribulation which seems to combat something. All right so we'll pick this up on the other side of the break. Thanks for the kind words. Thanks for the question.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome back friends to the broadcast. One more reminder, we are going to launch our frontline newsletter in January of next year. You want to get it. You will be edified, blessed, encouraged by it.

It will connect you more deeply with our ministry and give you a vision of what God is doing around the world and speak to you directly to inspire and help you. So get it. It's going to be absolutely free.

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If you're ready to get our emails, it is automatic for you. Okay, so back to Jesse. I just want to say one thing because of your kind words. 99.9% of the people who call, I don't know who they are. I don't connect them with someone in social media.

It's not someone that I know personally as I'm teaching at Global Awakening Theological Seminary last night where the students came up to me and said, hey Dr. Brown, I'm so-and-so from such-and-such a state. I called your show once to get advice on a doctoral dissertation topic. So I remembered the call but obviously met him for the first time. But Jesse, because of a lot of your interaction on Twitter and some other places, I associate it with the name with the calls over these last years. So just to say this, there was one time when you called some theological question and I thought that you really weren't trying to digest what I had to say and you really were. I just thought you were kind of pushing back. So you've been patient also.

Because I do my best to meet everyone where they are but I just happen to remember some of the social media interactions so I appreciate the kind words. Okay, number one, I do not believe that there will be another national dispersion of the Jewish people from the land. There may be some limited driving out of some people just like there's a tragic taking of over 200 hostages now by Hamas. So that's based on Zechariah 14 that there will be attack on the city and suffering in the city and then some of the people taken into exile. But that just seems to be something very limited in the final war within the land. And I say that because in Isaiah the 11th chapter it speaks of God raising his hand a second time to bring the children of Israel from all the nations of the world. So you could say the first time he brought them back to the land was the exodus and then there's the final regathering or you could say the first time was Babylonian exile, return from the Babylonian exile and then the final return. But I don't see any way that you could possibly come up with another return, another final return, another scattering of the Jewish people all around the world. So there may be some limited judgment. It seems that there will be as the whole world is shaking. There will be some that are pushed out of Jerusalem.

But this seems to be something temporary and not a national exiling. I don't see that scripturally. Again, certain things are very clear to me and I'm dogmatic on them.

Others we have to be more tentative. But the best I understand it, that is not the case. As far as the questions in Revelation, the drawing of the Euphrates, I honestly don't know what that refers to. In other words, is it a spiritual reference to something that happened in the past? Is it a literal prediction of something that will happen in the future? Is it something symbolic that happened in the past and will happen in the future?

I don't know. I read Revelation and I'm edified by it, but I don't try to apply all the parts of it because I'm simply not sure of the best interpretation of the passages. And to me, because the various views, I'm sure you're aware, some say it's historical. Everything in Revelation is speaking of a cosmic battle in the first century between good and evil and the evil empire, Nero and others fighting against the Christians and God's ultimate deliverance and judgment on the world. And then the future establishing of a new heavens and a new earth. And then others just see it as all spiritual, that it has symbolic meaning for every generation. And then others see it as all futurist, that after the messages to the churches in the first two chapters, that the rest of the book is futurist. So that's the most common interpretation today because of dispensationalism and other things. But I believe there is future fulfillment, but I believe there had to be first century relevance as well. And what I'm looking for, the unfolding of things prophetically, same as doctrinally, theologically, I try to establish those points outside of Revelation and then find how Revelation fits in with that.

I'll just give you one example. I don't know the exact count and it's debatable. But I heard once that 278 out of 404 verses in the book of Revelation are borrowed from Old Testament images. There's only one verse that's cited and that's Psalm 2, that the Messiah will rule with a rod of iron and crush his enemies.

So Psalm 2 is cited, but everything else is an illusion, a reference to, borrowing a picture or an image from the Old Testament and bringing it into Revelation. So in Revelation 20, after the Millennial Kingdom, it speaks about the final war of Gog Magog, the final rebellion, and then Satan and his cohorts vanquished. Now if that is a historical reference, then it's telling us the war of Gog Magog in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is not the final war of this world, is not the final Armageddon as I understand it, but rather something that is after the Millennium, hence Israel dwelling in peace and safety and then this final rebellion and attack. Or the book of Revelation is simply borrowing the image of this massive war conflict and the enemies of God rising up against him and applying it in a different historical context or a different prophetic context. So even in Revelation 7, for example, the 12 tribes of Israel and 12,000 from each tribe, that to me represents the fullness of Israel's salvation, not a literal 144,000 Jewish evangelists, but rather the fullness of Israel's salvation, all Israel being saved at the end of the age. I don't see how we can be that dogmatic on it because of the nature, the apocalyptic visionary nature of the book. So that's my view on it. I'd love to be as clear and decisive as I can, but in some passages I have to step back a little bit. Okay, thanks so much. What do you make of Revelation 7, 9 and 14 where it says, which no one could number and then finally these are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation? Got it.

I failed to address those points specifically. I do believe that these passages indicate first that we will be protected in the time of final tribulation, that God will put a mark on us, just like in Ezekiel 9 where God put a mark like an X on each person that was mourning and groaning over the sins of Israel so when the destroying angel came through, it didn't touch them. So God's people will be protected from His wrath in the final tribulation, the final upheaval. I absolutely believe that clearly and those verses support it. As to the multitude that no one could number, there will be a great end time harvest just as we've seen in the last 50 years more people come into the kingdom than in the previous 1500 years before that or 1900 years before that.

It's been extraordinary. At least in the last 75 years that's been more than all converted and come to faith in the centuries before. There will be a great harvest at the end of the age. Jesus speaks of the harvest as the end of the age and it's going to be good and bad. Paul speaks of the fullness of the Gentiles coming in in Romans 11 and 25. So I believe that's part of the picture and then the salvation of Israel, the 12,000 times 12 represented the fullness of Israel.

That's what I understand those pictures to speak of. On the other hand, some could read it that throughout church history we've been in great tribulation and that this is the gathering to the Lord of all believers through all the centuries. So I tend to read Revelation in many futuristic ways but I'm not dogmatic about it.

But that's how I would understand those verses and thanks again for the call. Friends, let me say this last thing to you. We are really living in critical times and like it or not we are all in the line of fire. That is the reality. You know when I started the broadcast in 2008 and just praying and came up with the name Line of Fire then I realized that William Buckley used to have the firing line but it wasn't in that order.

The first concept came to me, Line of Fire, and then I liked it and shared it with my team and they liked it and my family liked it so we went with it and that's been our identity, Line of Fire, ever since. But a colleague of mine brought up to me, Dr. Brown, we are all in the Line of Fire today and that's the reality. America is under spiritual, moral attack in ways that we never have been before. When Franklin Graham was asked why he talked about politics more than his father did, whether you like his politics or not, it's not the issue. When he was asked why he talked about political and social issues more than his father did, he said in my father's day they would read the Bible in school.

In other words, it was a different world in which his kids grew up and which his father grew up and now compared to the world in which his kids or grandkids are growing up. We are all in the Line of Fire but it is our goal, it is our mission to infuse you with faith and truth and courage. We are here to equip you and to empower you so you can engage the world in which you live. So take advantage of the resources we have and together let's push back against the darkness. Together let's lift up Jesus and when we have some theological differences, let's not demonize each other. Let's do our best to understand each other. Let's not mock and ridicule each other. Let's do our best to understand each other, lay out where we have differences and then move forward. Let's give the devil a black eye rather than each other.

May the Lord himself be with you. Remember, sign up for the Frontline's newsletter. It will be coming your way in January. Go to AskDrBrown.org. Sign up now.