Dr. Brown Responds to Jeff Durbin and Apologia Radio About Israel and Jewish Identity

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome to the broadcast.

I want to say a few things up front. This is not a battle between good and evil here on the broadcast, and I'm the good guy, and Apologia Studios, they're the bad guys, or they're the good guys, and I'm the bad guy. No, this is brothers, and I'm the bad guy. No, this is brothers who love the same Lord, serve the same God, read the same Bible, want to bring glory and honor to Him, want to see Jews and Gentiles come to know Jesus, Yeshua, believe that there is no salvation for Jew or Gentile outside of Jesus, Yeshua, and that in Him we are one, that there's no caste system, there's no class system, we are one in the Messiah, equals in the Lord.

This is a discussion between brothers. There's tons of stuff every day online I could interact with, and tons of written material, and my goal is not to be going around critiquing everything, I am not the theologian in chief, I am not the critic in chief, that's not the role. When a question comes to me from enough people, and when it seems to be a valid question that people are asking, then I pray and think, all right, should I respond to this?

I feel this is one of those times, it's the right time to do it. I reached out to my dear friend James White, who's very, very close with Jeff, Jeff and I know each other, we've interacted in a very constructive, positive way, always, where we have theological differences, it's as brothers in the Lord, I reached out to James, reached out, just to let him know, reached out to Jeff, said, hey, can we talk privately, he's in the midst of some very intense situations that need a lot of prayer right now. So he's not able to interact a lot personally, so I said, hey, I just want you to know, I'm going to be talking about this on the air, so that's the goal. Bring things to the light in a healthy, constructive way, and we are all captive to the word of God. We're all captive to what God's word says, so it's not a matter of what's my perspective as a Jewish believer, or Jeff's perspective as a gentile believer, his colleague, no, the question is, Lord, what do you say? What's your heart, what's your mind, how can we grasp that together, so let me affirm once more, we are brothers in the Lord, the only way of salvation for Jew or gentile is through Jesus Yeshua, and I share Jeff's heart and the heart of the others in Apologia Studios, that the greatest thing that we want is for the Jewish people to know Jesus the Messiah, when it comes to Israel. That's the greatest desire that we have, and I also want to say that we cannot unequivocally stand with Israel, meaning whatever Israel does, we therefore sanction. I agree with them that we cannot unequivocally stand with Israel. I differ very, very strongly on a number of points that they've made that I'm going to interact with, hopefully as fairly as possible.

I'll be fair on my side, hopefully they'll feel that I'm being fair to their side as well. So, we're going to dig into this. If you're watching on YouTube, give us a thumbs up and share it, another important broadcast to get out to as many as possible.

Same on Facebook, hit like and share. Those who listen to my radio podcast, share this with a friend, we're doing our best to get urgent messages out for such a time as this. Alright, let us listen to clip number one from a recent broadcast on Apologia Studios. Alright, so it's just a really strange thing to say that evangelicals are like, I stand with Israel unequivocally. It's like, guys, they're sinful people. Well, what comes on the end of that typically is this next statement, which is because they're God's people.

Yes, and you hear things like that, and it just goes to show precisely what you landed on. Unequivocal support because they are God's chosen people. It's a theological commitment.

That's right. And so we need to ask the question, is somebody who is physically descended today from Israel by blood, physically descended from Israel, who rejects the Christian message, rejects Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior, hates the message of Jesus, spits on Christians in the streets of Israel, is that person God's chosen people? Are they truly Jewish? And look, it's an important question to ask because I, look, put it all on a table.

You're not hearing from people who just always opposed this idea. Luke was raised in this. Zach was raised in this.

My whole Christian education and Bible college education was right in line with that. Those are God's chosen people, God's chosen people, God's chosen people over there. And we're sort of like the stepchildren, you know, like, so that's God's chosen. And we're like the, we're like the stepchild. Like, you know, yeah, we get all these blessings and stuff, but they're really the apple of God's eye.

All right, so no stepchildren here, no stepchildren. So, yes, we agree, we are equal in the Messiah. But is Israel today, the Jewish people today, are they still, in some clear sense, God's chosen people? Absolutely, categorically, yes, and Paul states it emphatically.

What about those who are enemies of the Gospel? Yes, emphatically, still chosen. Not chosen to salvation, that is only in the Messiah. But still, God's chosen people, just like God chose Israel, the Old Testament said, B'ni b'chori Israel, Israel is my son, my firstborn. It didn't mean everyone within Israel was saved, but they were, they were God's chosen people.

That remains. That's never changed. And we're going to look at Scripture, which is explicit and clear and definite. And yes, they are Jews. To say they're not Jewish is wrong, dangerous, misleading, and feeds into a lot of anti-Semitic tropes.

I am very sure that was not the intent. Even the frequent reference to Jews who spit at Christians, that comes up several times in these clips. That was disturbing to me. In all candor, I say, as a father and elder, it was passionately unwise, because there was so much anti-Semitism. The fact that the nation of Israel reacted with abhorrence to several small groups of ultra-orthodox Jews who spat at Christians earlier, well, last month. It got a statement from the prime minister. It got a statement from the chief rabbi of Israel, chief Hashanah rabbi.

It got statements from leading ultra-orthodox rabbis denouncing it. So to constantly make reference, I mean, I'm hearing it all the day, well, what about the Jews who spit on Christians? Yeah, so Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager spit on Christians, right? And the Jews and Christians that work together for welfare of other people, they're not spitting on Christians, okay?

So let's not exaggerate the stereotype. But let's go to the Word. What does Paul say explicitly? We're going to start here in Romans chapter 11, verses 28 and 29. Romans chapter 11, verses 28 and 29. Paul says this, as far as the gospel is concerned, they, meaning the people of Israel, the Jewish people that do not believe in the Messiah, as far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake. So through their rejection of the gospel, it now went to the Gentile world. They are enemies for your sake, who the Jews who do not believe. But as far as election is concerned, they are loved, on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.

He called Israel as His chosen people. He doesn't take it back. That remains the same. Whether it's for judgment or for blessing, that remains the same.

He's explicit. Paul answers the question straight out of the gate. Yes, they are still chosen. Yes, they are still elect. They are still loved because of the fathers, even when they are enemies of the gospel. Even the ones, the few, who are spitting at Christians and who hate the message of Jesus. Yes, they are still elect and they are still loved because God's gifts and His call are irrevocable.

Now, let's just dig into this a little bit deeper. And what I want to do is show you other verses in the New Testament. Other verses in the New Testament that also have the same word used in Greek, which is ecloces. So let's look in Acts 9-15, this word for election. Acts 9-15, this is slide number 1. The Lord said to Ananias, go this man as my chosen instrument.

So speaking of Saul, he is a chosen instrument. The same word, ecloces. Romans 9-11, yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in election might stand. The same word is being used there. Romans 11-5, so too at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. That word chosen, the same word in Greek.

Romans 11-7, what then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain the elect among them. So there are the elect within the elect. There are the elect individuals within the elect nation.

It's the same word used. Romans 11-28, which we saw. As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake, but as far as election is concerned, they are still loved on account of the patriarchs. God still has a particular special love on Israel because his gifts and call are irrevocable.

Let's keep going. 1 Thessalonians 1-4, for we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you. The same word used there. And then 2 Peter 1-10, therefore my brothers and sisters make every effort to confirm your calling and election. So this is a standard New Testament word used for God's election. All my Reformed friends, all my Calvinist friends should appreciate this word.

A standard word used for election choosing and the Jewish people as a people are still the elect nation. It does not mean that they are saved. It does not mean that they are forgiven. In fact, they are held to greater accountability by God. But yes, yes, yes, to answer the question that was put out forthrightly, absolutely, categorically, without question, yes. They remain elect because God chose and he does not go back on his word. For much of our history, that has meant more judgment than it has meant blessing. But that is the reality. As to being Jewish, we'll come back to that.

But let me point this out. The Greek word eudaios, which can mean Jew or Judean or Jewish leader in the New Testament, occurs almost 200 times. Virtually every single one, with the exception of maybe two or three possible spiritual application verses. Every single time it says Jew, it means Jew. Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew. To say the people of Israel today are not Jewish, very wrong. Very wrong, very unbiblical, and a real misuse of the word of God because we pull out one verse and don't look at hundreds of verses on either side of it. You can't do that.

You can't do that. It's been as candid and open as I can with my brothers with whom I have a difference, but it's a serious difference and it's a consequential difference as you'll see as we come back. This is Michael Ellison, founder of TriVita Wellness. I want to introduce our TriVita, Alfred Libby, original patented sublingual B12, B6, and folate formula. I had the wonderful opportunity of meeting Alfred Libby, a pioneer in vitamin research. I also had the opportunity to obtain the patented formula and the rest is history, with over 50 million tablets being taken by our TriVita members through the years. The amazing testimonies of mental clarity, mood enhancement, and more energy have been thrilling to me as a founder of TriVita Wellness. Not only is it an amazing B12 product, but it is loaded with the essential B6 vitamin. I call it the workhorse vitamin. It is vital for strong immune function and every body system. Here's what the National Center for Biotechnology Information says, and I quote, it plays a key role and is crucial to immune function.

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Use the code BROWN25. So, thanks to TriVita for your sponsorship. We appreciate it. All right, let's now challenge what I said about, yes, absolutely, people in Israel today, Jewish people around the world are Jews, and God calls them Jews and considers them Jews, and to say they're not Jewish is not a right thing to say, especially at this time with so much anti-Semitism, Jew hatred around the world, so much irrational Jew hatred around the world.

There are things that play into it. This idea that Jews are really not Jews, or as others would say, well, they're the synagogue of Satan, and et cetera, and then to caricature as if they're all spitting and so on and so forth, it's just not a good time to do it. But the question is, what does the word say?

So, we go back, clip number 2 with Jeff and the team at Apologia Studios. Verse 27 of Romans chapter 2. Paul's having a discussion about the uncircumcised and circumcised, who keeps the law, who doesn't keep the law. He says, Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical, but a Jew is one inwardly. And circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

His praise is not from man but from God. Can you get more explicit than that, than the Apostle Paul, a Jew himself, saying, this isn't the real thing. This isn't where it's at outwardly.

It's inwardly. And so the Apostle Paul makes it explicit there, is that you're not even truly Jewish because you are outwardly or physically Jewish. You have to be inwardly Jewish.

It's a matter of the heart. And you could be Gentile, physical, physical Gentile, and you could have the Spirit of God indwelling you and circumcision to the heart. And that's Paul saying, that's a true Jew. But he's not actually physically Jewish. No, but he's truly a child of Abraham.

He's a descendant. That's true Israel right there. That's a true Jew.

All right. It sounds persuasive except all you have to do is just keep reading, and you see it's absolutely not what Paul was saying. In context, and as most translations render it, you're not a Jew if you're merely one outwardly. You also have to be one inwardly, to be a Jew in the truest, highest sense of the word. That's what he's saying, between two Jews. But even if you said, okay, Noah, he's talking about a Gentile that's like the real Jew, if they're circumcised in the heart, and the Jew who's not circumcised in heart, they're not a real Jew. That's what he's saying. Well, of course, as you read through Romans, Paul addresses Gentile believers in Rome as Gentiles.

He never calls them Jews. Just keep reading through and you'll see it. But here's what's interesting.

Guys, let's put up slide number two for those who are watching. I did a show on this the other day where I actually read through every relevant verse. So, look up these verses, representing every reference to Jew, Greek Eudias, in Romans.

Romans 1, 16, Romans 2, 9, and 10, Romans 2, 17, Romans 2, 28 to 31, chapter 3, verse 9, verse 29, chapter 9, verse 24, and chapter 10, verse 12. In every single case, you'll see that when he says Jew, he means Jew. So, if you look, in other words, before 2, 28, and 29, every time he says Jew, he's talking about a Jew. Contrasting judgment coming to Jews first and then Gentiles, blessing coming to Jews first and then Gentiles. Or Romans 1, 16, the Gospels, the power of God, salvation for everyone who believes, first the Jew, then the Greek. And then in Romans 3, 9, is the God of the Jews only? No, not only God of the Jews. So, he's talking about Jews who are not believers, Jews, the Gospels to the Jew first, right? Judgment coming on the Jews who do evil, coming on them. Telling them, referring to them as Jews, Jews, Jews, Jews.

And then he makes a spiritual point. The real Jew, the Jew in the ultimate sense of the word, is the one circumcised in heart, not just in body. And now, what's the very next verse? What does Paul say in chapter 3, verse 1? Then what's the advantage of being a Jew or being circumcised? He's going back to talking about Jews as Jews.

Now, put up slide number 3. Look up these verses, which represent every reference to circumcision in Greek peritome in Romans. So, chapter 2, verses 25, up to chapter 3, verse 1, Romans 3, 30, Romans 4, 9 through 12, and Romans 15, 8. So, once again, outside of the spiritual point Paul is making in 2 28 and 29, every single time that he refers to people of the circumcision, he's referring to physical Jewish people, every single time. Then when you expand from that, when you expand from that and look at all references to Jew in the New Testament, you find that, with the exception of a couple places, maybe where he's making a spiritual point about the real Jew, the ideal Jew in God's sight, the true Jew in God's sight, he keeps talking about Jews, Jews, Jews, Jews, Jews. Are the people living in Israel today who reject the Messiah Jews? Are they Jewish?

Yes! The whole New Testament, dozens and dozens, scores and scores of times, refers to them like that. And Paul, through the rest of Romans, does. The whole book of Acts does.

I mean, it's so explicit, it's overwhelmingly so. Let me read to you from my book, Our Hands Are Stained with Blood, where I wrote this. It's one thing to argue that once or twice, Paul used the word Israel or Jew in a special sense, referring to the whole church as the Israel of God and all believers as Jews. Although I personally disagree with this, I certainly wouldn't call this position dangerous, but it is another thing entirely to turn around and ignore the remaining 268 New Testament references to Israel and Jew and claim that Israel is no longer Israel and Jews are no longer Jews.

That most certainly is dangerous. It's one thing to say Paul used the word circumcision in a special sense, Philippians 3, 3, to refer to all believers. It is another thing to say those who are physically circumcised on the eighth day are no longer counted as Jews. Even in the book of Deuteronomy, even the book of Deuteronomy recognized two circumcisions, circumcision of the flesh and circumcision of the heart, but one did not negate the other. In the words of the internationally acclaimed Romans commentator C.E.B. Cranfield, Paul's statement in Romans 2, 28, 29, quote, should not be taken as implying that those who are Jews only outwardly are excluded from the promises.

Absolutely not. This is serious misinterpretation of Scripture, and Scripture's got to interpret Scripture, so if all the verses before Romans 2, 28, and 29 are referring to physical circumcised Jews as Jews, and throughout the New Testament up to then, and all the references to Jews thereafter, in Paul's own writing, beginning in chapter 3, verse 1, the very next verse, referring to Jews as Jews, and circumcised as circumcised, physically outwardly. That, to now say, well, they're not really Jews, no, no, no, Jews say they're not really Jews, or an unsaved Jew is not really a Jew, or transgender activist Jew is not really a Jew, or an ultra-orthodox rabbi who despises the message of Jesus is not really a Jew, no, that's contrary to the entire witness of the entire New Testament, and we're talking several hundred verses or references. Do these Jewish people need Jesus? Yes. Does the nation of Israel need Jesus? Yes. Do the Jews who are on the wrong side of moral and cultural and theological issues need to repent?

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times over. But they are Jews in God's sight, and Gentile Christians throughout the New Testament are not referred to as Jews. That's why later in Romans, Paul says, I'm writing to you Gentiles, not to you spiritual Jews, I'm writing to you Gentiles as much as I'm the apostle to the Gentiles, because I want you to arouse my people, Israel, to envy. He doesn't call the Gentile Christians Israel, he calls his people, Israel, natural people that need the Messiah calls them Israel. And that's what he does, and we're going to go through verses in Romans 9 in a little while. I want to come back, though, and address this issue of taking time on the broadcast to play clips, several different clips, of instances of ultra-orthodox Jews spitting at Christians in Israel. Again, it's abhorrent, it's despicable, and it's been rejected on a national level, both religious and secular leadership, speaking against it, rejecting it.

I don't think it's wise or good to play all those clips today as if that's the spirit of the Jewish people in Israel, especially in the climate of so much world anti-Semitism. But there's another side to the story that you need to hear. It's uncomfortable, but you need to hear it. Stay right here.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, when I came to faith in late 1971 as a heroin shooting LSD using Jewish hippie rock drummer at the age of 16, I knew nothing of church history. A Jewish kid not raised in a religious home. I didn't have animosity towards Christians. I went to school with Christians. They were nominal Christians. I don't think any of them really knew the Lord. But we hung out together, we played together, went to school together.

That was normal life, right? After I got saved, my dad wanted me to meet the local rabbi. He said, Michael, I'm glad you're off drugs, but we're Jews.

We don't believe in this. So, he brought me to meet the local rabbi, and he and I began to interact and have interacted on and off for over 50 years. And one of the first things he gave me was a book on anti-Semitism and church history. It was kind of a shocker to read so much of this, but look, I got saved in a little Italian Pentecostal church, and there was us, and we went right back to the Bible.

You know what I'm saying? We knew there was church history, but we didn't talk about it a lot. It sounded like I came from a Catholic background or a Greek Orthodox background or even a Presbyterian background or a Lutheran background where there would be more reference to church history or church leaders. So, I just kind of brushed it off, whatever, it's weird, and understood why certain Jewish people had animosity towards Christians based on church history. And remember, when there are Muslims beheading Christians shouting Allahu Akbar, and other Muslims say, well, they're not real Muslims. Hey, those are the Muslims that they knew. Those are the Muslims that beheaded them. Those were the Muslims that were in their community.

That's the Islam that they knew. So, the Christianity that many Jews have known through history has been horrific Christianity, and that's where this idea arose in some cases of spitting at Christians. But I just want you to know what many Jews, especially religious Jews, know about church history. Remember that Germany, Nazi Germany, was pretty much equally divided between, or large numbers, excuse me, it was predominantly Lutheran, but with large numbers of Catholics. Austria was largely divided, Poland overwhelmingly Catholic, so where three out of three point million Jews died in the Holocaust, that was a Catholic nation. So, you can talk to many religious Jews, and in their mind, there's a straight line from the New Testament to the Holocaust, and that's what they're spitting at. Just to give you context, and remember, the spitting actions have been renounced by chief rabbis, leading ultra-orthodox rabbis, the prime minister himself.

It's despicable, ugly, inexcusable. I just want you to understand, though, it's not just out of the blue that this happened. So, let's go back to the year 387. I'm just going to read a few excerpts from my book, Christian Anti-Semitism. I would love for all of you to read my book, Our Hands Are Staying with Blood. It will be one of the most eye-opening and painful things you've ever read. And by God's grace, it's been used to shift many hearts and many minds since we first came out in 1992, and that we updated it, expanded it in 2019. But listen to what John Chrysostom said, one of the great leaders in the early church, 4th century church, given the name Chrysostom, golden-mouthed posthumously, because he was such an eloquent speaker from his seven sermons against the Jews in the year 387.

I'll start here. When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check. They endure in neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer, just so the Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil. They kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Although such beasts aren't fit for work, they're fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews.

While they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said that, as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them. Just so you know this, this is what many Jews know about church history, and Hitler and the Nazis reprinted Chrysostom's sermons. Or here's author Susan Jacoby telling us the story of what happened during the Crusades.

Pope Urban II. Now remember, these are people marching with crosses emblazoned on their uniforms. This is what Jews thought Christians do. Susan Jacoby tells the story, Pope Urban II did not tell crusaders to murder Jews. That is what happened when at least 100,000 knights, vassals, and serfs unmoored from ordinary social restraints, but bearing the standards of the cross set off to crush what they considered a perfidious Muslim enemy in a faraway land.

Why not practice on that older group accused of perfidy? The Jews. Albert of Aix, a Christian born in the late 11th century, describes atrocities in Mainz, another stop of the Crusaders' rampage through the Rhineland, by a band headed by one Count Emico. Again, there is a bishop who initially promises the Jews protection for what Albert describes as an incredible amount of money, but Emico and his Christian soldiers broke into the hall where the Jews were held.

Breaking the bolts and doors, they killed the Jews, about 700 in number, who in vain resisted the force and attack of so many thousands, they killed the women also with their swords pierced tender children of whatever age and sex. That's when the custom of spitting at Christians arose, in response to things like that. So yes, these misguided hateful zealots today think that's what they're spitting against, as opposed to spitting at Christians who love Israel and pray for Israel and stand with Israel. So it's ignorant, it's wrong spirit. I've read articles by rabbis renouncing this saying, this is not the people you're spitting at. You're not spitting at people who are out to behead you and kill you or chop you to pieces or burn you alive at the stake. They're not doing that. These are different people.

But I'm just giving you context and background. And remember, here, let me read it, unless you've never heard the words of Martin Luther, 1543, in his book On the Jews and Their Lives, where he reversed his earlier position of reaching out with gentleness and grace towards the Jewish people in 1523. It doesn't matter how old and sick he was and what literature he'd be exposed to, this is sick and despicable and shameful for one of the great leaders in church history.

This is Luther's counsel to the German princes, and this is not disputed, everyone knows this was written by him. He said this, here's the counsel, here's how you deal with this unbearable devilish burden of the Jews. First set fire to their synagogues or schools. Second, I advise that their house also be razed and destroyed.

Instead, they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn like the gypsies. Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings in which such idolatry lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss and life and limb. Fifth, I advise that safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.

Sixth, I advise that usury, charging interest be prohibited to them, that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping. Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an axe, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewishs and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow. I'm not going to go on reading more, but there were German Lutheran leaders who celebrated Luther's words as the synagogues were set on fire and Jews attacked and beaten and killed November 8th of 1938, 1939. Kristallnacht, in many ways the real beginning of the Holocaust, and the next day happened to be Luther's birthday. There were German Lutheran leaders rejoicing and saying the synagogues in Germany are burning on the occasion of Luther's birthday. That's Christianity that many religious Jews and Eastern European Jews know. The Christianity of the pogroms in Russia where they dreaded Easter Sunday a hundred plus years ago because after Easter Sunday the enraged crowds would go out into the Jewish communities to kill the Christ killers. As the Catholic scholar Edward Flannery said, the pages of history that Jews have memorized, Christians have torn out of their books. And I've taught at leading seminaries in America and asked them, when you teach church history, when do you teach this?

And with embarrassment they've said, we don't. So, I'm not excusing the spitting, I'm saying there's a context to it, there's a history to it. And to not even bring that in and recognize it and then to characterize it as if this is like widespread in Israel, so you have a very, very false impression and then to be completely insensitive to the, quote, Christian sins, the church sins.

And among these church leaders, not just Crusaders, but church leaders who engage in horrific ugly rhetoric against the Jewish people. So, there's context. It's really important we understand that, friends. Really important. All right, let's go back to Apology Radio, another clip where they speak about the identity of real Israel.

Let's go. Nothing is being said here in any way whatsoever to have you thinking derogatory thoughts towards people in Israel today. Of course. This is to suggest that actually we should see those who are physically Israel today as not true Jews and needing to be true Jews, needing to come to the Jewish Messiah. What I'm saying is that we should see the state of Israel today as a mission field. We shouldn't be saying to you, you're the chosen people of God, you're good to go. We should be saying, no, nobody is the chosen person of God who rejects Jesus Christ as Savior.

Because that's what they were relying on in the passage that you quoted. We have Abraham as our father. We have Abraham as our father. God can raise up from these stones heirs of Abraham. Oh, so rocks can be Jews. Rocks can be Jews.

You see the point? I mean, how much of Scripture needs to be brought to bear on this before we're finally corrected as Evangelical Christians in the West? Stop calling somebody who rejects with rabid hostility the message of Jesus. Stop calling them the chosen person of God.

Stop doing it. Scripture doesn't do that. Scripture does do that. We saw, we started to show, if you missed it, we started to show with Paul explicitly saying in Romans 11, 28, 29, yes, they're still elect, they're still chosen. But they're not individually chosen to salvation.

That only comes through faith in Jesus. And also, why the constant reference to the Jews who are rabidly against the Messiah? Why not talk about the ultra-orthodox rabbi that gets up early in the morning and spends 14, 15, 16 hours a day in prayer and study, has a massive family.

If you wanted people whose neighbors and people who were trustworthy, you wouldn't find better neighbors that were trustworthy and ethical and honest. Yes, needing the Messiah. Yes, needing the Messiah.

But, no one is saying, in my camp, you're good to go. I'm engaged in Jewish outreach day and night, day and night, as Jeff knows I am, in areas where we stand together. Absolutely.

Absolutely. So, those who are saying, I stand with Jeff and Apologia Studios, standing against Christian Zionists who say, well, Israel's already somehow chosen or saved in a, no, no, together, as one. Jeff, Apologia Studios, we stand together and say, no, that's a deception. Do not tell the Jewish person you are good to go without Jesus the Messiah. Do not say that under any circumstance.

And yes, there's a clip, I won't get to it, but it's just a short clip, Romans 9, 1-5, Paul's broken heart for Israel's salvation. Jeff says, that's the heart I want you to have. Yes, yes, yes, please, that's the biggest thing. We agree. We agree.

Please take away that. But don't say the people aren't Jews. And don't paint a picture as if they're all rabidly hostile to the Gospel. That's not the case. Some are. Just like in every faith and non-faith, some are. But the bottom line is, everyone outside of Jesus the Messiah needs Him.

We come back, here's what I want to look at, and this is really big. Why should we have a perspective on Israel? Why should we recognize that it is important to stand with Israel in many ways?

Why should we understand that God still has purposes for Israel and the Jewish people to this day? We'll come back to that on the other side of the break. Are you experiencing fatigue, heart palpitations or tingling in your hands and feet? These may be signs that you are deficient in vitamin B12, which may increase your risk of serious cardiovascular conditions without you even knowing it. I'm Paul Burnett, a board-certified doctor of holistic health and director of wellness services at Trivita, and I have some exciting news for you. Introducing Trivita's HCYGART, the breakthrough sublingual B12 natural supplement scientifically formulated to support maximum absorption and support healthy levels of homocysteine. What is homocysteine, you may ask?

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These statements are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This is how we rise up. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again, it's Dr. Michael Brown. All right, so I've got a ton more verses to go through. I want to prayerfully encourage everyone, step back and look up verses. Step back and go through Scripture.

You said I've already done that, I differ with you, Dr. Brown. Fair enough, fair enough. Many times we have emotional reactions on either side, but we all do, we all do. So step back, look at the Word. Jeff and the team read from Romans 9, 6, following that not all Israel is Israel, neither because you're the descendant of Abraham or you're Abraham's children. And they said, well, that settles it right there. Except it doesn't.

It doesn't. Let me just point this out, okay? Romans chapter 9, Romans chapter 9, this is the last slide if we want to put this up, guys. Romans 9, 6, it's not as though God's Word has failed for not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

So he says that. Israel in the truest sense, the Israel of God which is Jewish believers within the nation. It's not the church as a whole, it's Jewish believers within the nation.

So the remnant. But then, just you check these verses after. I've done many broadcasts doing this, but just check these verses after. Romans 9, 27, Romans 9, 31, Romans 10, 19, Romans 10, 21, Romans 11, 2, Romans 11, 7, Romans 11, 25, and 26. In every single one of these cases, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, every single one of these cases, when he refers to Israel, he is referring to the nation as a whole. The nation as a whole, the nation as a whole, the nation as a whole. Let's get into some other verses.

And I want to give you this perspective. So again, there's an Israel within Israel. There is the believing remnant within the nation as a whole, but the nation as a whole is still called Israel. The same way, the children of Abraham are still the physical children of Abraham. And in Luke 13, when Jesus heals a woman who's been under demonic physical assault for 18 years, he says, she should be healed on the Sabbath, she's the daughter of Abraham.

And then in Luke 19, when Zacchaeus repents, the corrupt tax collector, Jesus says, salvation has come to his house for Jesus, son of Abraham. And Peter, Peter, in Acts 3, preaching to the people that he says, you rejected the Messiah, you crucified the Messiah, so to Jewish leaders and others in Jerusalem, to the Jewish crowd, he calls them children of Abraham. They're still children of Abraham. Doesn't mean they're not children of Abraham, it means they haven't received the fullness of the blessing promised to the children of Abraham. But Messiah comes, what's it say in Romans 15, verses 7 and 8, the following.

Romans, let's look at Romans 15 and 8, that the Messiah comes to the circumcised to confirm the promises to the patriarchs. He doesn't cancel the promises to the patriarchs, he confirms the promises to the patriarchs. Alright, what's the foundational promise to the patriarchs or one of them? Well, through their seed, the whole world will be blessed, that is the seed, that seed, the Messiah.

But it's not just that, there are promises given to the corporate seed. Hundreds, hundreds of verses in the Old Testament say this. Let me read to you from Psalm 105, okay? You tell me if God makes himself clear here or not. Remember what Paul says, Romans 11, 28 and 29, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

What does it say? Psalm 105 beginning in verse 7, he is the Lord our God. His judgments are on all the earth. He remembers his covenant forever. The promise he made for a thousand generations. The covenant he made with Abraham. The oath he swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.

To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit. How could he have made it any more clear that it's forever and ever and ever and ever? And it is his promise, and Paul writes in Galatians 3, 17 that the law, which comes 430 years after the promise, cannot annul the promise.

This is part of the promise. God says it emphatically. The one who scattered Israel will regather. Here, I mean, Jeremiah 31, 10. Jeremiah 31 verses 35 and 37. Jeremiah 32, 37. Ezekiel 36, 16 through 26, and many other verses.

He said, I will scatter you in my anger, I will regather you in my mercy. You say, well, he scattered Israel in his anger, that's the Jewish people, he regathers them in his mercy, that's the church. No, that's butchering the Bible. That's butchering the Bible. That's making God guilty of double talk and doublespeak. You say, no, he scattered them in his anger, he will regather them spiritually.

That's also doublespeak. Because when you read the whole passages, it's about a physical scattering and a physical regathering. And Ezekiel 36, which first applies to the Babylonian exile and finds its fulfillment at the end of the age, and we're living in some of the fulfillment of that now. He says, I'm not bringing you back because of your obedience. If they repented as a nation, if my people repented as a nation, he guarantees to bring us back. But he said, you haven't repented, but my name is being blasphemed, so I'm doing this for my namesake. I'm doing this for my namesake and bringing my people back to the land in unbelief, and there in the land, I'll sprinkle clean water on you. It's no surprise that the number of Jewish believers in Jesus in Israel since the founding of the nation in 1948, with maybe a dozen or so Jewish believers that we know certainly less than 20 at that time, they're now about 30,000. God is pouring out his spirit.

He is sprinkling clean water. And to not recognize it's God who brought the Jewish people back to me is a very serious error. Theologically, spiritually, and practically. If we agree that when God smites, no one can heal. When he heals, no one can smite. When he opens the door, no one can close it.

When he closes the door, no one can open it. When he scatters, no one can regather. When he regathers, no one can scatter. If he scattered the Jewish people in his wrath, which we agree that he did, we rejected Moses, we rejected the prophets, we rejected the Messiah. He scattered us in his wrath. The other way we're back in the land is that he regathered us. That's the only way it happened.

He did it. And if you're Calvinist Reformed, you say, well, of course we did it. He's sovereign. Well, for what purpose? For what purpose did he do it? I want you to consider a few other truths here and some other passages that we'll look at. Even when Israel was in sin in the Old Testament, God still had an affectionate love for them. Look these verses up. Jeremiah chapter 31, verse 20. Jeremiah chapter 31, verse 20, where God's rebuking Ephraim, he says, As many times as I spoke against you, my heart still yearned for you. Look for yourself in Zechariah chapter 1, verses 14 and 15.

Zechariah chapter 1, verses 14 and 15. After God had sent his people into exile and they had suffered among the nations. And bear in mind, these passages about returning from the nations are from all the places where God scattered our people. That never happened in Old Testament times. And the return from Babylonian exile was very small.

Most of the people stayed in Babylon, from what we can tell. So, all the promises of the return, which the prophets spoke of over and over and over, either they were false prophets and it never happened, and throw the Bible out, the critics accepted it, or it's still happening. And God's going to fulfill everything he spoke and he wrote.

Because he's faithful, he does that. So, in Zechariah 1, verses 14 and 15, God says, I'm angry with the nations among which I scattered my people. I was only angry with them a little, but you overdid the punishment, you overdid the punishment.

And you went too far. Yeah, in Hebrew it's very concise. You help the calamity.

But even then, he says, I'm intensely jealous for my people, even in sin and in exile. And Zechariah 12 and Zechariah 14, which have not yet happened, no matter what construction you put on it, they have not yet come to pass. Just please read them, friends, if you don't believe me, read them. They have not yet come to pass. All nations have not yet come up against Jerusalem. There has not been national mourning among the people and turning to the Messiah en masse. Not just 3,000 acts saved, you're talking about the whole nation turning.

That hasn't happened yet. Acts 1, his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives when he returns. And in Zechariah 14, when he returns, he will come in flaming fire and his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. A Jewish Jerusalem will welcome the Messiah back. That's what Yeshua indicates at the end of Matthew 23. That's what Peter preaches in Acts 3, repent and turn to God and he'll send the Messiah.

Jewish repentance remains essential. It's important as believers that we recognize that it's God who brought the Jewish people back and Satan who wants to exterminate them. That it's God who put Jerusalem back in Jewish hands and it's Satan who wants to get them out. And it's the same God who will bring about Jewish repentance that will then welcome in the Messiah.

Luke 21, 24. That you'll be scattered from Jerusalem. You'll be taken captive in the nations until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

That until means there will be a return we're witnessing in our day. To not recognize the larger spiritual picture if Satan wanted to wipe out Israel and God's standing with Israel. And worldwide anti-Semitism to not recognize the spiritual battle is to miss something important here. So number one, Jews need Jesus like everybody else. Number two, Jews and Gentiles and Jesus are equals, equally loved. Number three, Israel remains God's chosen people even in disobedience and under judgment.

Number four, we do not sanction everything Israel does as if Israel was perfect. We recognize the sin in Israel, the secular sin, the religious sin. We grieve over it, I grieve over it as a Jew. We pray for Israel's salvation.

At the same time we recognize there is an existential battle taking place. The God who scattered the Jewish people has brought them back. May God give us eyes to see that and understand that.

The world hostility against Israel and the Jewish people is not just natural, it is supernatural. We should therefore stand with God, stand against Satan and the enemies of Israel while calling on the Jewish people and the Muslim people to turn to Jesus for salvation and by praying for Israel to use restraint in its battle to eradicate murderous terror. Do your best to take this to the Lord, to step back from wanting to debate me, stand with me, stand with Jeff. We stand together in Jesus for truth. May truth triumph. Let's step back, get on our faces, get on our knees, open the word and say, Lord, I just want to honor you and be faithful to your word. That's why I hold to these positions. I threw them out many years ago, but I came back to them because I'm too convinced of what scripture says and what I see spiritually with my own eyes. May the Lord bless you. That's how we rise up. It's all resistance. You can't resist us. Another program powered by the Truth Network.