Responding to the Allegations Against Mike Bickle

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

So how do we respond to the very serious charges against Mike Bickel? It's time for the Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity.

Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the Line of Fire. And now here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on what is going to be a very important broadcast today. It's a broadcast I wish I didn't have to do, but it's essential that we address these things head on as honestly and candidly as we can. For those who are not aware of what's been happening, I'll catch you up with it. This is not a show about salacious details or some investigative reporting. Rather, it is how do we respond to charges of sexual misconduct and pastoral and prophetic abuse against Mike Bickel, pastor, leader for many years, highly respected in the charismatic movement and in many parts of the larger church, leader in prayer movement, International House of Prayer, birthed out of Kansas City, which has had over 20 plus years, well over 20 years of consecutive 24-7 worship prayer, going up to the throne of God and helped birth prayer houses around the world. How do we respond to these very serious allegations? Mike was an esteemed colleague with whom I spent many hours of fellowship and ministry together. For those of us close to Mike who know and love him, obviously, this is a very, very painful topic. I want to say right out of the gate that I am not speaking from some viewpoint of moral superiority or throwing stones.

I walk with a limp. I recognize, and I hope we all do on some level, there I go, but by the grace of God, if, if the charges are all true. So this is not a time for me to throw stones or to say, ah, look at that. God forbid any of us have that attitude.

It's a time to search our own lives. I am a recipient of the mercy of God. I've been corrected by the Lord and rebuked by the Lord many a time over the years. And I do walk with a limp. And yes, I seek to set an example of godliness, but I fully recognize that we point everyone to Jesus as the savior.

There are no human saviors and no human superstars. I want to say that up front. If you're watching on YouTube, Facebook, let's help get this broadcast out. So click like, and then share on Facebook, thumbs up and share on YouTube. Just take a moment to do it. If you're listening on radio, just call a friend, say, hey, tune in now.

If you've got the podcast, share it with a friend. It's essential that we get these things out today. So I woke up in the middle of the night, Saturday morning. I was just in Fort Worth, Texas for the day, and I saw a text to one of my colleagues saying, as soon as you get up, please call. It's about Mike Bickel. I thought, oh no, what could it be?

But immediately your heart sinks and you think the worst. So these were close friends who had heard from other close friends saying, we just want to give you a heads up of what's coming down. And then by later in the day, Saturday, this was all over the internet, and then Sunday morning, the leadership of IHOP KC had to address things. So this is a statement that was read by Stuart Greaves, whom I know not closely, but I've met.

We spent some time together, one of the senior leaders at IHOP. So listen to what he had to say, and then I'm going to weigh in as if the charges were true. We don't know yet. They're very credible charges and serious charges. We don't know the details, and there must be due process that's important. And my hope is that IHOP KC will bring in outside leaders or even a ministry that does official investigation so that this can be done above reproach. That's what I'm hoping will be done rather than just handled internally because it's very big, and the ministry is very big, and it's international, and many eyes are on it.

So this would just bring greater accountability. I'm going to respond, though, if the charges are true, then what do we do with this? How do we respond? But first, it's about a two-minute, 20-second statement that we'll hear from Stuart Greaves. This is a statement from the IHOP KC leadership team regarding allegations against Mike Bickel. We are heartbroken to share that we recently became aware of serious allegations of sexual immorality directed against Mike Bickel, the founder of IHOP KC. Our leadership team takes these allegations very seriously, and we are laboring for truth, light, redemption, and righteousness.

We are engaging with outside parties to assess and arbitrate these allegations. Our priority is to love and serve the IHOP KC community during this moment. This news is unsettling for our spiritual family as well as our entire leadership team. Please pray for all involved, including the ones who have come forward, those who have experienced trauma, and for the Bickel family. We are asking for your patience as we work through this complex and very difficult situation. Secondly, we ask our spiritual family to refrain from using prophetic spiritual language that can be interpreted as dismissive of the pain of those who are traumatized.

On October 26, the IHOP KC executive leadership team asked Mike Bickel and he agreed to not preach or teach from the IHOP KC platform. Attend our 24 hour prayer room or engage his social media channels while we work with others to assess this situation. As difficult as this is for many, we are trusting Jesus.

It's wise and good leadership to help and strengthen us as we anchor our hope in Him. So, an agonizing situation. I was on the phone with Nancy talking about this on Saturday, and I just had to get off the phone and weep.

First, I just said, Lord, I'm so sorry. We keep blowing it. We keep bringing reproach to your name. We keep hurting you. We keep hurting your people. That's the very first thing I wept over. This has happened so many times. And what happens in the body, that's us. That's us. And it grieves the Lord, and it hurts the Lord, and there's so much damage.

And then, specifically, the women involved who would be victims here, their pain and what they've gone through, and then the larger fallout for so many around the world who've been touched by IHOP KC and by Mike's ministry. It's just an agonizing thing, and I want to make an appeal, especially to my fellow leaders. We've got to watch ourselves. It's so easy to mess up. It's so easy to open a door.

It's so easy to take wrong steps. I'm aware of that. We all need to be aware of that. This could happen to any of us. You know, those who didn't like Mike or didn't like his ministry or don't like charismatics or whatever and kind of gloat, that's a bad move.

You should grieve also. Even if you say, well, this confirms that there are problems. You know, 1 Corinthians 10, 12 is a warning for all of us. Let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall. This is a time for introspection. This is a time to search our own lives. This is a time to get low.

When Jesus said to his disciples, one of you is going to betray me, you know what they said? Is it me? Is it me?

Is it me? That was their immediate response. I remember when news came of Jimmy Swigert's fall about 1987. First there had been Jim Baker and then Jimmy Swigert was mocking it, publicly mocking his fall and mocking the ministry. And I really liked Jimmy Swigert. And I'm not saying this to throw stones. I'm saying this so we learn.

I really liked Jimmy Swigert and his preaching and his emphasis on holiness and authority of scripture and all of that. And I just said, oh, it's not a good idea to do that. You set yourself up above everybody. You set yourself up for a fall. But I remember when news came of his fall, no, I couldn't believe it.

Not Jimmy Swigert. It's impossible. That's how I felt.

That's how I felt. But I said, Lord, we've sinned. Lord, we're guilty.

We've sinned. Even though it's an individual. Again, if the charges are true, everything has to come to light and has to be properly investigated. That's biblical process. That's due process.

Right? But I'm responding, the rest of the show, what if the charges are true? How then do we respond? Another major thing to remember is this at a time of major upheaval for many, especially in the charismatic movement. Let God be true, but every man a liar. Those are Paul's words in Romans 3, quoting from the Psalms. Let God be true, but every man a liar. Ultimately, there's only one Savior. Ultimately, there's only one who is sinless.

Yes, leaders should be above reproach. And when we fall short in minor ways, we fix that, where we disappoint the Lord in a certain way. You know, I could be testy talking to someone at an airport, you know, a gate agent where my ticket's messed up and I'm a little frustrated. And I'll apologize. I'll even say I'm a minister of the gospel. I should do better than I apologize. You know, or something's pointed out in your life.

Okay, you fix it. You get low before the Lord. Yes, we should live above reproach, but there are no superstar individuals. Every one of us has to deal with the flesh. Every one of us has to say no to the flesh.

Every one of us has to control our mind, our talk, and things like that. Let God be true, but every man a liar. People do fail. God doesn't fail.

That's reality. And for every one of you involved in a house of prayer, yes, it's tragic if these charges are true, but that doesn't take away your calling to lead a house to prayer. That doesn't take away our calling to pray. That doesn't mean that the worship that's gone up to the throne of God day and night for 20 plus years out of Kansas City and in other parts around the world, that the worship is in vain or the prayers are in vain. It's just another reminder that people fail and there's only one Savior. There's only one Savior.

And as Nancy and I talked about this, she's often made this point, but it's a profound point. We often over praise people, an amazing man of God, an incredible woman of God, a power, you know, and this amazing pastor, this one and that one, and Jesus never over praise people. Oh, one day we'll get our praise from God, and one day by His grace we'll hear, and we'll be done good and faithful servant if we've lived like that. But he didn't go around like, wow, you're amazing. He was amazed at great faith in a Gentile woman or in a Gentile man. He was amazed and unbelieved from his own people.

And, you know, he says about Nathaniel in Israel, with whom there's no God, but that's, he did not go around praising people. Wow, you are amazing. You are incredible.

You are just the best. He didn't do that because he knew human beings. He knew human beings. And there's only one that's exalted, and that's him. We can never forget that.

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As a new customer, 100% of your order proceeds from your first order will go to support the Line of Fire radio broadcast, 1-800-771-5584 or online at TriVita.com. This is how we rise up It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, James, for joining us today on the Line of Fire as we respond to the allegations against.

Mike Bickel, who for many years was an esteemed colleague of mine, and in all our interaction always affirmed holiness, always affirmed purity, always affirmed accountability. So, if these charges are true, of course they are very, very shocking. You say, well, if there are all these prophetic people around him, how come they didn't see it? I'm going to come to that question. Does this bring a larger indictment against the charismatic movement? I'm going to come to that question. I want to address all that.

Can we trust any leaders in the church at all? I'm going to come to all of that. But thank you for tuning in, and thank you for giving me your best year now. I want to say this again. We can never be too careful in watching our lives.

Yes, I trust God in his keeping power, but I also know it's really dangerous to play games. So, just think of this for a minute. Again, it's not to throw stones. But think of how highly regarded the name Ravi Zacharias was. Think of how many decades it took of ministry, of hard work, of labor, of walking and conducting himself a certain way before people, for decades and decades, to build up a worldwide apologetics ministry. When I would be overseas ministering, and someone would come and say, hey, there's someone that a leader in Ravi Zacharias' ministry would like to meet with you while you're here. That name was gold. Absolutely, by all means.

As books were best-selling books, and on and on it goes. Now you think of the name of Ravi, and you think bad stuff. It's a shame. Think of it. Pastors, leaders, friends in ministry, please, but everybody, moms, dads, those with families. It takes years and years and years to build a reputation of integrity. It takes years and years and years of hard work to grow a ministry or to grow a family. I mean, destroy it for a minute, for what?

For some emotional thrill, for some physical thrill, for what? You know, 1 Timothy 4, the exhortation, watch yourself and your doctrine carefully. It's an important exhortation for every one of us.

And then remember as far as our attitudes. Rather than throwing stones, we should get low. Absolutely, there needs to be accountability. Absolutely, things need to be dealt with properly.

Of course, if the charges are true, my pickle can't be in ministry. You say, what about restoration? Well, I mean, thinking about that. There's nothing being discussed right now. It's not even an issue. If the charges are true, let's first deal with that.

I mean, think about any restoration on any level. That's not even an issue, except personal restoration in God. But Matthew 7, 2, Jesus reminds us that the way we judge others is the way that we'll be judged. So, let us by all means hold to accountability and righteousness on every level, but let us also be people of mercy.

Galatians 6, 1, if someone's caught in a fault, you who are in the spirit of me, considering yourself, you should also be tempted. Alright, so, big question. Big question. You say, well, there were supposed to be all these prophets in Kansas City, all these prophetic leaders. What happened to them? How come they didn't see this? How come they didn't know it? First, I don't know the chronology. In other words, I don't know if the charges are true. When everything happened, I've heard that things go back to the 80s, in which case there would have been leading prophetic brothers there, most of them deceased now, but some still alive, leading prophetic figures that would have been there. If Mike was guilty of sin then, if he was in sexual immorality and covering it up then, why wasn't that known? That is a perfectly fair question to ask.

And I don't have a simple answer. Maybe he was warned. There was one leader, major evangelical leader, who was in sin for years, and I asked some of the folks in the church that were prophetic, I said, did any of you warn him? We knew something was wrong and we warned him, and then he just rejected prophetic ministry entirely. Several said, we warned him. I came to him and I pleaded with him.

I said, something's wrong, something's wrong. He rejected it and he rejected prophetic ministry entirely. So, we know Mike did not reject prophetic ministry, but we simply don't know the details. But it is a perfectly fair question to ask. How come, if you have these prophetic people around, that they're not getting a sense that something is wrong? It is a fair question to ask and I don't have a simple answer for it. I would only say this. It's not just a question for those who believe in prophetic ministry today.

It's a much bigger question. In fact, as Nancy and I were talking about this, I think on Saturday night when I arrived back home, she said, think of Judas with the other disciples. Not just the betrayal, but what do we learn later at the time of the betrayal that he was a thief and he used to steal money. But they had no idea, the other disciples had no idea. How is it that they hung out with Judas day and night for years? They did ministry together. They were with one another and with Jesus day and night. They were used by the Spirit driving out demons and healing the sick side by side for over three years and none of them knew that he was a thief. None of them were spiritual enough to see it.

Even though they were anointed by the Spirit and gifted by the Spirit, they didn't see it. It happens like that sometimes. What can I say? It is a reality. What about this? There are many, quote, discernment ministries, right? They may use that name for themselves. Others may use it about them.

And many times I have issues with them because I feel they're hypercritical. But the discernment ministries that, like Ravi Zacharias, why didn't you discern that something was wrong? Understanding that the charges against them have been validated as being true over a period of many years, all you who are in discernment ministry, why didn't you recognize that? What about all the Southern Baptists? You know how many major scandals there have been in the Southern Baptists in recent years, including allegations of major leaders covering up sexual sin that had taken place?

And there are other major non-evangelical, in fact, even, excuse me, non-charismatic, even anti-charismatic leaders. I mention names now because that's not my purpose here. But there are major allegations against them that they covered up sexual sin within the body.

So, that they didn't do it themselves, but that they knew about it and covered it up in some very ugly ways according to some of the charges. Well, how come others didn't see it? How come others didn't know it? I don't know.

It's a fair question. I can only say that sometimes when you just believe the best and you're expecting the best and thinking the best, you don't see certain things. And you're not praying every day, Lord, is there someone in sin here in the camp? I don't understand how the Spirit's gifts operate in terms of God is God. We're not God, He's God. They operate according to His will. I've been in services over the years where the Lord gave me a word about sin in the camp, about something going on in somebody's individual life, and we dealt with them and they repented afterwards, or something larger in a congregation and massive repentance broke out, confession from leaders and things like that. I've been there, seen it with my own eyes. And yet, there was someone else in leadership in sin.

We didn't even know it. It's God to reveal as He reveals. Look at this verse in 1 Timothy 5, 24 and 25. The sins of some are obvious, and it's right after the context of leadership sin. The sins of some are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them. The sins of others trail behind them.

In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not obvious cannot remain hidden forever. 2 Kings 4 37, when there's a death of a child, someone that had been close to Elisha the prophet, when this woman reached the man of God, speaking of Elisha, at the mountain, she fell at his feet, and his aide Gehazi came to him, and what does Elisha say? What does Elisha say? Leave her alone, she's in bitter distress, but the Lord has hidden it from and has not told me.

Why? I don't know. But we simply do not know everything. Remember, Paul was eager to get communication from different churches. Find out from Timothy, how are they doing? Sometimes he could see in the Spirit, and sometimes he had to rely on earthly report.

I can't explain why it happens like that. Pray for all of us to have greater discernment. At the same time, we don't walk around suspicious of everybody.

And that's a big question. How do we then look at people? We shouldn't over-exalt them, should we say, I don't trust anybody.

I can't trust anybody. We're going to take that up, and we come back just being as candid and forthright as I possibly can. And I want to be as redemptive as I can as well. We'll be right back.

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Download the app. So if either of the, well, any of the above or all three, let us minister to you. Let us be there to help you. Okay, so if the charges against Mike Bickel are true, how do we respond? Well, let's first address this from the viewpoint of being a charismatic. Mike was a well-known charismatic leader. I've served as a well-known charismatic leader and often am one that critics will come to and say, well, what about this?

What about that? What about all the scandals in your movement? So there is no question that there have been many abuses in the Pentecostal Charismatic Church and many abuses remain to this moment. There's no question about that. I don't deny it.

I don't downplay it. And for those that are familiar with me, beginning in 1989 is the first book I wrote addressing some of these issues called The End of the American Gospel Enterprise. My book How Saved Are We in 1990 addressed other issues pointing primarily within the larger Pentecostal Charismatic movement. 1991 book Whatever Happened to the Power of God asked the question, is the Charismatic Church slain in the spirit or down for the count? So this is as a Pentecostal Charismatic leader addressing these. My most recent book just focused on this was 2018 Playing with Holy Fire, a wake-up call to the Pentecostal Charismatic Church.

A few years before that, my book Hyper Grace dealt with an error primarily that I was emphasizing within the Pentecostal Charismatic Church. So I'm not downplaying abuses. I'm not downplaying abuses. And have we had a disproportionate number of moral failures? That can be debated.

And I'm going to come to that in a moment. But we've had way too many. Again, I don't say this to throw stones. I stand by the grace of God.

I'm a recipient of the mercy of God. I'm saying within our movement, we've had way too many scandals. And some of it is because of lack of accountability in our structures. Some of it is because of a superstar thing of like the power of God is on me, anointing is on me. Some of it comes with this arrogance when the Holy Spirit works through you and gifts are manifest through you. You can somehow think too highly of yourself. That can happen with anyone, but it can happen especially in our setting. There have been instances of abuse that are not just your average pastoral abuse.

That's bad enough. When pastors and leaders use their authority to manipulate other people. You don't speak against the anointing. You don't question me and then manipulate them and hurt them. But it can happen even more in our Pentecostal Charismatic services because the Holy Spirit is speaking through me and you can't touch me.

So there are other dangers there. Yes, I join with critics of the Charismatic Pentecostal movement in calling these things out. Many times I say their spirit is wrong. Many times I say they're throwing out their baby with the bathwater. But absolutely, where these things are there, I call them out. There's one well-known critic I've said to him, because I'm not watching Christian TV or seeing a lot of stuff that's out there, evangelical, charismatic, whatever. I said, if you see an abuse, a major thing, send it to me.

Send it, make me aware of it. So I'm not downplaying that at all. And sometimes we've just had this loosey-goosey spirituality.

Now I've never known that to be characteristic of Mike Bickel. So this is, if the charges are true, a shocker, a grievous shocker for someone that I esteemed in the Lord. A grievous, painful shock. And again, we said at the outset, we grieve over the damage this does to the name of the Lord, the hurt to the body, the specific women who would have been in particular victims here. Our hearts break and we pray for full restoration. Again, the implications of this are massive.

But, does this bring a larger indictment against the things of the Spirit? No, of course not. Of course not. Let me explain why.

Let me explain why. Again, go back to let God be true, but every man a liar. So, the fall of Ravi Zacharias gets exposed heavily after his death, tragically. So, did that discredit apologetics? No, because truth is truth. It does bring reproach and there are people just think you came to faith through Ravi and it's like, what a man, I can rely on him and so on. And then you hear of his fall, you question everything. Is any of it true?

I trusted him so much, how can I trust anybody? So you go through those kind of emotions, but hopefully you realize if he said what was true, it's still true. If he taught that two plus two is four, it's still true. That doesn't change. So, the fact that the Holy Spirit is working today, that doesn't change. The fact that there are, there's a counter after counter after counter of documented miracles. I mean, just read a book like Craig Keenan's Miracles today as an example.

The fact that I'll post on social media and say, hey, maybe we're on our Facebook page where it says a good-sized following. If there's a documented miracle in your own life or a supernatural word you received or given, I'd love to hear it and you get this endless flow of testimony. The Holy Spirit is moving.

I've been around the world in obscure places, outlying places, sometimes the first white person they've seen. And the Holy Spirit's moving there powerfully and sick of being healed and demons are being driven out and prophetic words are coming and people are coming to Jesus. That's happening.

That's reality. And think of this, the Corinthian church, think of this for a moment. The church in Corinth, they had sexual immorality in their midst that they were glorying and like, look at our liberty, look at our freedom. Paul addresses that in 1 Corinthians 5.

They were full of division and carnality. He addresses that in the first chapter and the third chapter and then in another way in the sixth chapter. They had serious doctrinal error. They were denying the future resurrection of the dead.

Not that Jesus rose from the dead but that there'd be a future physical resurrection of the dead. He addresses that in the 15th chapter. There were all kinds of abusive practices of the gifts, in particular tongues, just used in public delivering public messages that was creating a chaotic atmosphere when there was no interpretation. He addresses that in the 14th chapter. Then the 11th chapter, he talks about disorder in the Lord's Supper when they gather together.

That someone get there early and get drunk and eat all the food. The Lord suffered to the point that he said many are sick and some have died. And the Corinthian church at that point may have been 50 to 75 people. Many are sick, several have died, fallen asleep.

Whoa! But in the first chapter he says, he commends them for not falling behind in any spiritual gift. He never tells them the tongues wasn't real, he never tells them the prophecy wasn't real, he never tells them the healing wasn't real. In fact, he exhorts them to earnestly desire the gifts, especially prophecy.

It's a command actually he gives them. So, their sin does not deny the reality of the gifts. And again, that's what Paul says, let God be true to every man and lion. My sin confirms me as a sinner. It doesn't make God into a sinner. So, you flip it over and now if I just say, okay, let's look at Southern Baptist, the largest Protestant denomination in America, and largely non-charismatic.

I mean, if you're charismatic, it's kind of closeted because it would be against the doctrinal statements there. Shall we list the scandals? Shall we go to the websites that bring accusation after accusation after accusation? Should we throw the whole thing out? Because Southern Baptists were founded to break away from Northern Baptists, why? So that they could keep their slaves? That the four founders of the highly esteemed Southern Baptist Theological Seminary were all slave owners who justified slavery? So, therefore, throughout all Southern Baptists?

That's the problem. And if you say, oh, I'm glad I'm not a Protestant. Okay, so you're a Catholic? Where do we go with that? You know, a few years ago, the Catholic Church in France released a study, multi-year study, going back to the 50s, where they had documented on their records more than 330,000 documented examples of some type of sexual abuse with priests, clergy, and individuals, or nuns, individuals.

Over 330,000 from the 50s until around the 2020 thereabouts. Does that, if you're a Catholic, does that throw out all of Catholicism? You say, well, is there anybody I can trust?

So here's the reality, here's the reality. I remember sitting down with David Wilkerson many years ago when I was preaching regularly at Times Square Church, and we were having dinner together one night, and I'd just heard devastating news of someone very close to me, a man of God that I deeply esteemed, highly esteemed, that I'd known since I was first saved, and allegations, well, apparently confirmed that over a period of many years he'd been in adultery. After I was close with him, it was years after that that I heard it happen.

But it was utterly inconceivable to me that that man could do that. And when I said it to David Wilkerson, he said to me, for everyone that falls, three or four don't. Well, I wanted him to say three or four hundred don't, or thirty or forty don't. But, he said, for everyone that does fall, three or four don't. The fact is I've worked with many fine people for many, many, many, many, many years, and the ones who fall are the exception to the rule. So thank God for those kept by God's power and by God's grace. Don't throw out trust in the Church as a whole or think I can't trust any leader, but don't put too much trust ever in a person, and don't look to a person in any type of Savior figure way. And do not exalt a person in respect and honor, but we're all flesh and blood.

We stand by grace and by mercy. More to come. Are you experiencing fatigue, heart palpitations or tingling in your hands and feet? These may be signs that you are deficient in vitamin B12, which may increase your risk of serious cardiovascular conditions without you even knowing it. I'm Paul Burnett, a board-certified doctor of holistic health and director of wellness services at Trivita, and I have some exciting news for you. Introducing Trivita's HCYGART, the breakthrough sublingual B12 natural supplement, scientifically formulated to support maximum absorption and support healthy levels of homocysteine. What is homocysteine, you may ask? Well, it's an amino acid that when elevated can cause damage to the lining of your arteries, which over time increases your overall risk for a cardiovascular event. Trivita's HCYGART is highly absorbable because of its sublingual form and because of its methylated form of B12 which enhances its bioavailability, maximizing its crucial role in reducing unhealthy levels of homocysteine.

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These statements are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. This is how we rise up It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, folks, for joining us. All those who tuned in partway through the broadcast, be sure you catch the entire broadcast. If you have the Ask Dr. Brown Ministries app, just click shortly after the show's over. It'll be uploaded on our YouTube channel, Ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D or Brown.

And just share it with others if you find the content here helpful and I'm being as forthright candid as I possibly can. You know, Bill Heibel's famous with Willow Creek Church and the seeker-sensitive model. As he was getting ready to retire, accusations of sexual misconduct came out against him.

Some were retracted, some denied, others confirmed or confirmed by outside organizations looking at things. What does that say about seeker-sensitive? It really doesn't.

You have to evaluate it by itself. You know what I'm saying? Again, it's not to throw stones at Bill Heibel.

It's simply to say, whether it's a good model or a bad model, you have to evaluate it based on the model itself, not on what happens to a leader. You say, yeah, but there's so many scandals associated with IHOP. Actually, when you think of how many thousands of people around the world are involved with this, when you think of how many leaders have served there over the years, many of whom I know, it's actually the scandals have been quite rare, but one is more than enough, two is more than enough, three is more than enough. You say, what about accusations that there is cult-like behavior and things? I'm not closely left involved to know, but let everything be examined. Let everything be examined and brought to the light.

Let it be for all of us, Lord, for all of our lives, for all of our ministries. Let us be examined, let everything come to the light. You say, well, what if some of the stuff that was allegedly by the Spirit was counterfeit? There's always been counterfeit. Counterfeit is because there's real.

Just remember that. You have counterfeit healing and miracles because you have real healing and miracles. You have counterfeit prophets, false prophets because you have real prophets. That's just through the Bible.

That's just through the Bible. So, we have to look at each thing individually and not overreact. Though, you know, Jerry Wall, Falwell Jr., and that puts liberty in a bad light.

No, it doesn't put liberty in a bad light. It's an amazing school. My oldest granddaughter, Eliana, graduated there last May. Had an amazing time there. Wonderful school.

We know so many folks that have been at school, graduated. You deal with each thing individually. If it's part of a bigger problem, then you look at the bigger problem. If it's wrong leadership patterns, if they're abusive patterns, if they're cover-ups, let it all come to the light and be exposed.

Remember, there's still plenty of godly leaders. I just encourage you to watch people's example. And to fellow leaders, if you see something wrong, bring it to attention.

Bring it to attention. It's a godsend to me. If there was something wrong in my life and someone brought it to my attention, a wrong attitude or whatever it was, wrong word or wrong action, it's a godsend. Fellow leaders, to not just look the other way, oh, that's her, that's him, that's no other, it doesn't help anybody. Maybe something can be caught early on that can easily be fixed in a moment that will not lead to big problems and scandals. God doesn't want there to be scandals. God doesn't want reproach to come to his name.

Having said that, I still believe that this is part of a larger purging in the body. In 2019, towards the end of the year, I began to sense a rising hunger and thirst for revival in many churches, more than I had seen in years. And I was grieved because America is so deeply messed up, morally and spiritually so deeply confused and falling apart in so many ways, so deeply divided, that you'd think there'd be more hunger, there'd be more desperation, there'd be more repentance, there'd be more crying out, there'd be more humbling of ourselves, God help us. God revive, God have mercy.

You'd think that there would be, but where is it? I started to see a rising hunger, rising thirst, deepening repentance, and then in early 2020, I preached about God coming as a refiner's fire, a message I preached many times, but how the refiner's fire brings all the muck and junk up to the surface, not to condemn us, but to cleanse us, not to hurt us, but to help us. And with a deep repentance, it's very uncomfortable, it's ugly, it exposes all the bad, but with it, good can come out of it, if we humble ourselves, if we humble ourselves and get low. So, what happened, and I sensed there was the early rain of a sign of revival coming, and then it's like all hell broke loose. We had COVID, then we had, after the killing of George Floyd, the racial riots across America, the great tension and pain there, then we had the election fever and all the false Trump prophecies, and the storming of the Capitol, and then all of the scandals.

I mean, again, I'm not going to list all the names, but major leaders, one after another after another, in a relatively short period of time, it's like, what in the world? Well, it's the refiner's fire. It's God coming to purify, God coming to cleanse and purge, because he wants to move, but he's not going to move in a place of unholiness and uncleanness. He's not going to move where sin is covered up.

God said through Moses to Israel in Exodus 25, As-Suli mikdash v'shachantiv v'tocham, have them make for me a sanctuary, a holy place, and I will dwell in their midst. So, God wants to purify us, come out from among them and be separate. And again, we're not perfectly holy in this world. We live by grace and mercy every single day of our lives, but by his grace, we don't have to be caught up in sin. By his grace, if we make a mistake, if we blow it, if we sin, we can quickly repent and turn to him. And where certain lines are crossed, then we deal with that accordingly.

If you stole something, you bring it back. You cross certain lines, confession is made, et cetera. But by God's grace, we can live different lives. We don't have to be slaves to sin. We don't have to be slaves to porn. We don't have to be slaves to adultery.

We don't have to be slaves to so many other things that bring captive and destroy so many lives. So, as painful as this is, again, I wish none of this was true, but if these charges are true and they're serious and seem to have strong support, I'm terribly grievous, terribly agonizing, yet I see the purging before the power. You know, earlier this year, I said, I know it, the beginning of the first wave of revival has hit.

It's the early stages, but I saw church after church in America with God moving, with deep repentance with young people, flock of the altars crying out to God, with many being saved. I saw it on a regular basis. I knew, not because of me, I just was witnessing it where I was out. I knew it was the beginning of something powerful. I got on the air and I said, the beginning of the first wave has hit. I know it, I'm just telling you. And it was about eight days after that revival hit Asbury and the next thing in the nation was talking about revival. I said, look, I told you, it started.

But now it seems deeper purging taking place because, again, this is not just done on the corner somewhere. This is a major leader of a major ministry, especially in the charismatic world. So let me say it again. This does not deny the reality of the Holy Spirit. This does not deny the truth of the Bible. Listen to Mike Bickel go through Romans. Listen to his careful teaching, verse after verse, exegeting Scripture.

If he taught accurately, he taught accurately. This does not deny the message of the love of Jesus that he preached, doesn't deny the truth of Scripture. It says, okay, if true, then the man failed very, very seriously and hurt many in a very, very deep, deep way. And again, terribly grievous. And the first thing we think if there is, if this is true and there is true and deep and public repentance, then personal restoration to God.

And what about his family? And of course, as we said earlier, those who are direct victims for their restoration, wholeness and strength. But I do believe that this is a purging before a greater outpouring, and it's a word for all of us. Let me say it again. I'm not sitting here in a position of moral superiority throwing stones.

I'm saying let's all get low. Let's all search our hearts afresh. Thank God for the times in my life that he's rebuked me, corrected me. Thank God for the times he's brought others to rebuke me or correct me over the years.

We all need it. Rebuke a wise man and he'll love you. That's what scripture says. And then, on a larger level, Paul says this. 1 Corinthians 4. He said the spiritual man makes judgments about all things. The second chapter and the fifth chapter, he says, judge those among you who are in sin. The sixth chapter, he says, we should be able to judge disputes among one another. The eleventh chapter, he says, judge yourselves. But he also says this, 1 Corinthians 4, 5. Therefore, judge nothing before the appointed time.

Wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time, each will receive their praise from God. So let's not walk around suspicious of everybody. Let's keep people in the right place.

Again, back to what Nancy has said to me many times. Jesus did not over praise people because he knew what people were. So as much as I seek to be an example and live a godly life and live in an honorable way so that all those close to me and around me can verify that and vouch for that before the Lord, at the same time, I'm no superstar.

All right, there are no superstars out there, okay? There's one that we exalt. There's one that we exalt and one only. And yet, Paul says, hey, don't judge anything before the appointed time. Don't just try to free every person, every leader.

Now I wonder about this one, this one, this one, this one. Pray that God would help all of us in leadership and ministry to walk closely with him. That he would help his body to bring him honor and joy and not grief. That we would not damage the name and reputation of Jesus before the world.

That we would embrace everything he's doing on the earth today. May the Spirit move more powerfully, more deeply. May the refiner's fire bring out junk in any of us. May Jesus be glorified through it all. Hey, friends, thanks for tuning in. If you found this helpful, share it with others and let us move forward to honor our master together. Another program powered by the Truth Network.