Jesus Drew Clear Lines and We Should Too

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. We're going to dig deep today. We're going to get into the Word today. We're going to get into the words of Jesus today.

Absolutely. In my role as your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity, we will absolutely listen to what Jesus, our Lord and Master, has to say. If you're listening, watching, and you're not a follower of Jesus, well, maybe you'll hear some things you never heard before.

So, we're going to dig in deeply. This is a follow-up to my show yesterday where we got in depth about my history, eight years of interacting with Pastor Andy Stanley on the question of homosexuality, the Bible, pastoral ministry practice, et cetera. If you missed the broadcast, you can see it on the app, Ask Dr. Brown Ministries, Ask Dear Brown Ministries. Just check the latest podcast from yesterday or our website, AskDrBrown.org, or our YouTube channel, Ask Dear Brown.

Or if you're getting it by Spotify or Apple, iTunes, wherever, it is yesterday's broadcast. If you want to weigh in on this specific subject, 866-344, I'm not taking random calls or random Bible questions, 866-348-7884. For those who missed yesterday's broadcast, I've interacted with Pastor Andy extensively as of yesterday. We went back and forth before the show. I told him everything I was going to talk about on the show beforehand, told him to let me know if he thought anything was unfair or if he wanted to come on and represent himself.

So, that was all done. And as someone saying, well, why are Christian leaders having a private dispute in public? We're not. We're interacting publicly about public issues. It would be as if you watch the Republican presidential debate and then the next day we're talking about what the various candidates said or inviting a candidate on to go back and forth about what they said. These are issues of concern to the body. These are issues that touch people in their everyday lives. It's one of the critically important reasons that pastors and leaders must speak out and must be clear that rather than, in Pastor Andy's words, there are times that ministry preempts clarity, to the contrary, ministry calls for clarity. So, I'm going to tell you exactly where the subject came from about drawing circles versus drawing lines. But first, I want to read you a comment that was posted on our YouTube channel yesterday in response to the program about Pastor Andy and the recent unconditional conference.

Here's what this person said. I am a person in a same-sex relationship, but I since have ended that because it appears to be incompatible with my identity as a Christian. If I love God, myself, and my former partner, then I don't want to be selfish and risk them or myself going to hell over a temporary pleasure. The Bible says we are dealing with spiritual wickedness in high places and the rulers of the darkness of this world. I think this is one of the main reasons why LGBTQ is on the rise. 1 Corinthians 6, 9 says, Do not be deceived. It goes on and says this, I thank you, Dr. Brown, because as a believer that was involved in a same-sex relationship, it was teachers like you that did not compromise the truth of the word. We need more teachers that will tell the biblical truth rather than have believers to believe it is okay to stay in the same sex relationship. God called us to holiness, and if we don't repent, we only make it much harder on ourselves. Nothing in this world, even a same-sex relationship, is worth it to put in the way of fully being committed to God.

It can be a hard walk, but a first step is getting out of the homosexual relationship and asking for God to help you in your Christian walk. Yes and amen. And may the Lord fill that individual's life with his presence, with his goodness, with his life, with his truth, so that they find Jesus to be more than enough. And may he even work deeply within them, that they not only become at home in their own bodies, which is not the issue here, but at home in a heterosexual relationship, which would be wonderful to see them find fulfillment, companionship, and potentially children coming out of that. But for sure, may they find that Jesus is more than enough even as they are single people. I want to read something else that was posted to underscore the practical need, and I sent this to Pastor Andy as well, alright? Again, this, this is one person, the congregation there is, what, 40,000 people on all their satellite campuses, so I understand this is one person's view, but it's consistent with what I've heard from others who have been part of North Point over the years, and why I continue to say we must make ourselves clear.

Paul in a different context in 1 Corinthians 14 says, if the trumpet sounds an uncertain, makes an uncertain sound, how are people going to know to respond? Was that a wake-up call? Was that a warning? Is the enemy coming? Is it celebration?

Right? So listen to this. About a year ago, we left the church, Andy Leeds. One of the reasons we left is because we as a family, kids especially, did not have clarity on this topic specifically, namely homosexuality in the Bible. But also, many of the other people in our small groups were gay-affirming and did not think the church's position was against homosexual lifestyle as long as it was a committed relationship. When we visited another church for the first time after feeling led to do so, the pastor at the church we visited was clear marriage was between a man and a woman. You say, Pastor Andy said that yesterday on Sunday in his message. Yes, but has that been a clear message shouted out through the years?

The answer is obviously no. My wife and I were shocked when this pastor said that and then realized, why are we surprised? That's when we decided it was time to leave. We had begun to question the Bible's authority because we thought maybe we are wrong about what we believe. Maybe we don't understand what the scripture said. We realized slowly we had to question the way we understood the Bible and also began to think less of the scripture. It was a slow process we didn't realize was happening. I'm not sure Andy understands what he is doing and the confusion he is causing in his church body.

These are critically important issues and issues we must address. Look, as a Jewish believer in Jesus, I've made myself as clear as I know how to make myself for decades that there is not a dual covenant. That my Jewish people do not have their own covenant with God through total obedience and following the traditions. If they do that faithfully, they don't need Jesus the Messiah. No, agrees me to say this, and obviously I wish it wasn't true.

I wish there was another way. I wish that Jesus saved sinners over here, but others didn't need to be saved the same way and they would make it in the same way. That, at a natural level, that would be wonderful just from a purely human plane of thought.

That would be wonderful. But no, Jewish people need Yeshua like everybody else. Jewish people need Jesus like everyone else. And as Paul said in Galatians 2, if righteousness had come by the law, the Messiah died in vain.

If there was another way, he wouldn't have shed his blood. So, it's very important that we are clear with our message full of love, compassion, brokenness, tears. The story is told of D.L. Moody meeting with a famous atheist in England when he was there in the late 1800s, maybe 1874-75 trip. And some of the atheist friends were Christians and they knew Moody and they said, So, did you get to talk with him? He said, Yes. They said, Did he give you a hearing? Moody said, Yes. They said to him, Did you talk to him about hell? Moody said, Yes. They said, Well, did he give you a hearing when you talked to him about hell?

Moody said, Yes. They said, Well, we've tried to talk to him. He won't listen to us.

And he said, I spoke to him with tears. So, I am not here as the theological policeman. I'm not here to follow this statement. I want to find this statement from this sermon and make a big deal of that and get a lot of clicks.

Okay, we're going to use this name. No, that's immaturity. That's like being a Christian gossip columnist, alright? And every single day, there's something said from a pulpit, from a social media platform, in a book, in a blog, hundreds of times, thousands of times a day that's deviant, that's erroneous somewhere.

It's not our job, as I've said in the past, to play whack-a-mole, boom, boom, boom, just got to catch everything. But when there are major things said, when there are major trends and issues, when I have major concerns, right now, there's a Cessationist Conference taking place. And tomorrow, we're going to talk about it. But, oh, I've got a different angle tomorrow. It's been on my heart, and I think we're going to surprise some of you, and you're going to be surprised with the results.

Oh, yeah. But I've had grave concerns about abuses in the Pentecostal Charismatic Movement over the years and written whole books on it. I've probably been, as a Pentecostal Charismatic leader, by God's grace respected on a certain level, I've probably been the loudest critic within the movement. I've written whole books dealing with it, like Hypergrace, An Exaggerated Message of Grace. I have no problem confronting error, dealing with things sometimes generically, as Paul or Peter or John would do, just generically addressing issues, sometimes with names specifically, especially if there's a track record in the history, we've been able to interact privately, and that will bring everything out publicly for everyone.

But it is essential we make ourselves clear. Years ago, I was watching a broadcast, it was Larry King, and he had on different Christian leaders, Tim and Beverly LaHaye, others were there, Brian McLaren, who was becoming famous as leader in the Emergent Church, as it was called then. And he asked, Larry King wanted to know where they stood on homosexual relations, etc. And when Brian McLaren was asked, he responded, no matter how I answer this question, it's going to hurt somebody. And he had responded like that in another context, a similar answer on Larry King. I remember thinking, well, what do you actually believe?

What do you, I don't know what you actually believe. Well, it was no surprise when some years later, he ended up presiding at the quote, wedding of his son with another man, and has since said, even responded to me on Twitter and said, yeah, his views have shifted as he explained in such and such a book that he believes the Christ-like thing now is to affirm same-sex relationships. I'm not surprised he went that way. Even if that wasn't in his mind back then, God knows, I'm not making a judgment. Maybe it wasn't in his mind back then, maybe it was, but once you're so ambiguous, it's one thing to say, I don't know. Why does God allow certain suffering, or why this tragedy or that? I can't answer that.

Why are certain prayers answered and other prayers not? I can't answer. It's one thing to say, I don't know. Or to say, hey, there's this objection to a certain thing archaeologically, scientifically in the Bible, and it seems to challenge what you believe. Say, hey, I need to look into that.

I need to study that. I don't question the authority of Scripture, but that's a fair question. That's fine. It's another thing when we are intentionally ambiguous. When we are intentionally ambiguous because we don't want to be misunderstood or because we don't want to offend someone. Paul even said, I am not making this judgment about Pastor Andy or others. I am not making this judgment.

Paul, talking about those who preach circumcision, said that they do it, one reason they do it is to avoid the offense of the cross. We, all of us, pastors, leaders, individual believers, kids in school, we all have to ask ourselves, am I being ambiguous because I want to avoid the offense of the cross because I want to avoid rejection for Jesus' sake? Big question to ask.

Big question to ask. We come back, we're going to see the lines that Jesus drew. Clearly, loudly and clearly, get ready for a bombardment of Holy Scripture. This is Michael Ellison, founder of Tribute to Wellness. I want you to hear an amazing testimony from my friend, James Robison, and most all of you will know of him. He and his wife, Betty, host the Life Today television program. Now, here is James. Let me tell you about a miracle I experienced. My friend, Michael Ellison, he and his wife are our 40 year plus best friends.

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Call 800-771-5584 or go online to TriVita.com. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Jesus drew circles and lines. Jesus drew circles and lines. So, from Pastor Andy's message on Sunday, Dr. Al Mohler's version of Christianity draws lines and Jesus drew circles. He drew circles so large and he included so many people in a circle that it consistently made religious leaders nervous. And the circle was big enough to include sinners like me and I come from a long line of sinners like me. On one occasion, Jesus said, come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest, you will find rest for your souls.

All. That's a big circle. That's the invitation of our Savior.

That's the invitation of our church. And he said, we decided 28 years ago, we draw circles. We don't draw lines. We draw big circles. Well, if you don't draw circles and lines, you're going to end up destroying lines. You're going to end up destroying lines. If you just draw lines, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. Here's where we divide.

Here's where we separate. Well, you're going to drive away all the people for whom Jesus died. You're going to drive away all the people for whom he was a friend of sinners. You're going to drive away all the people for whom he laid his life down and said, come to me. Come to me. You're weary, you're burdened, you're beaten down, you're tired, you're discouraged. Come to me.

Right? You're not even going to get them in the door. You're not going to get them near the door. On the other hand, if you just draw circles and say, come, whoever you are, whatever you've done, come, without saying here are the requirements, without saying this is what it means to be a disciple, then you're going to deceive and mislead those people. So, in the one case, you draw lines without circles, you keep them outside the door. They never get to hear your message.

On the other hand, on the flip side, you draw circles without lines. You get them in, but you don't bring them a life-changing, life-saving message. Either way, you damn them through either not getting them in the door to hear the message of the Gospel, or you damn them from getting them in the door and never bringing them the message of the Gospel. You say, well, what do you mean about Jesus drawing lines? By the way, Dr. Mohler had written an article in advance of the Unconditional Conference where he rightly critiqued the wrong direction that Andy Stanley was going and has been going for some years. Andy responded to that directly without mentioning Al Mohler's name, responded to it directly by saying, hey, here's an article that a lot of people are reading. I'm going to respond to it and say, I don't accept that version of Christianity.

Dr. Mohler has now written his response with the clarity that you would expect in terms of these very sensitive and important issues. So, I'm just going to give you some of the words of Jesus. Let's start with Matthew 7, verses 13 and 14. Matthew 7, verses 13 and 14. A Sermon on the Mount starts with his disciples and then ends with crowds.

It must have come up as he's teaching. Enter by the narrow gate. That sounds like a line, doesn't it? Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter it by it are many, for the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few. Can I reread those words of Yeshua our Savior and Lord once again? Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter by it are many, for the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few. That exhortation is found in Luke as well. Strive.

Make every effort to enter in through the narrow gate. That's not my theology or my version of, quote, Christianity or my churchianity. These are the words of Jesus, spoken to make clear that there is a very specific path required. All right, let's just go a few verses down in the same sermon on the Mount, one of the most fundamental teachings that the Lord gave. Matthew 7, verses 21 to 23. Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day, many, note that word, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy on your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

Then I will declare it to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. So many will say, Lord, Lord, but he says, no, no, not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom, only those who do the will of my Father. Whatever you believe the will of the Father is, whether you believe it's what he was referring to through the sermon on the Mount, whether you believe it's simply putting trust in him to save and embracing him as Lord, however fundamental you want to make that will of the Father, he's saying you can say, Lord, and many will say, Lord, and many will even think they're experiencing miraculous powers and gifts, but unless you're walking in obedience, right, you don't get in. No, we're not saved by works, but we are saved.

You follow me? We're not saved by the good works that we do. We're not saved by, I prayed an hour today, I fasted a week, I shared the gospel with someone, I didn't watch porn, we're not saved by that.

Our best day, we need the mercy of God, our best day, we fall short of the perfection of God, but you better believe we're saved. As Paul preached in Acts 26, 20, his message to Griffey, he said, hey, this is what I've told everybody, that people need to repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. They need to repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. As revival scholar James Edmund Oren said, the only proof of the new birth is the new life.

All right, how about a line like this? This is right after the healing of a Gentile leader's servant and his own Jewish people rejecting him as Messiah, Jesus, listen to what he says, Matthew 8 verses 11 and 12. I tell you, many, note that word, many, will come from east and west and recline a table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

So, many will come to be saved and from the outside. Gentiles, while the sons of the kingdom, speaking of his own Jewish people who rejected him, will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That sounds like a clear line. Or how about this line, Matthew 13 verses 41 to 43? The son of man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all lawbreakers and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the son of the kingdom of the Father.

He has ears, let him hear. So, there are wicked and there are righteous and the wicked will be judged and the wicked will be destroyed and the righteous will be blessed and the righteous will be rewarded. However you define those categories, in other words, what constitutes wickedness? What constitutes righteousness? How is one group in?

Why is the other group out? Whatever conclusions you come to about that based on the clear teaching of the New Testament, it is absolutely indisputable that lines are being drawn. Remember Pastor Andy said Jesus drew circles, not lines.

It's one thing if he said he drew circles and lines, and we better do both. Draw a massive circle of love and kindness and mercy and compassion and tell people wherever they are, whoever they are, whatever they've done, come. Come receive forgiveness, come receive love, come receive a brand new start, come receive the opposite of what you've deserved through the cross, come everybody, come. You're welcome here with all your flaws and warts and blemishes and failings, come.

Yes, a giant circle as broad as the stretched out arms of Jesus on the cross. And then say, this is what it means to follow him, this is what it means to be a disciple, and this is what it means to have Jesus as Lord. So salvation is free, the gift is free, and the gift will change you, and you no longer serve yourself. You have been bought with a price, Paul's words, therefore glorify God in your body. You are not your own gospel 101. We'll be right back with the words of Jesus. You get to weigh in. Yesterday's topic, today's topic, you get to weigh in, 866-342.

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How about this? Matthew 25, beginning verse 31. I'll read verses 31-34, then verse 41, then verse 46. This is from the famous teaching of Jesus about the sheep and the goats.

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. That sounds like drawing lines.

That sounds, he's not just drawing circles of inclusion, but drawing lines of separation. Whether you read this as a parable or a prophecy of a future event, either way, the application is the same. He is drawing clear lines between the sheep and the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the king will say to those on his right, come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Scroll down a little further in the verses. Then he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. And these will go away into eternal punishment, but they're righteous into eternal life. These are not just lines, these are forever lines. These are lines which can't be undone in the world to come. These are lines which, contrary to Rob Bell in his book Love Wins, lines which are not traversed. As he argues that eternal punishment there is really pruning and that there's a purification process and as some of the church leaders taught universalism, that's the ultimate message that yes, you may go through a time of purging or punishing, but ultimately you'll be purged and will inherit eternal life and be with God forever.

If that's what scripture said, I would embrace it, but it's not what the word says in verse after verse after verse, making a categorical, eternal separation. That's called drawing lines. How, how could anyone say Jesus didn't draw lines?

How did you possibly say that? So, you're cherry picking. Well, number one, the words of Jesus are the words of Jesus. If I took something out of context, if I mistranslated it, that'd be one thing, but every quote is in context and the context changes nothing about the quote. And you're not cherry picking when you're quoting verse after verse after verse after verse after verse after verse after verse.

Yeshua made himself very clear. Okay, what about being a disciple? What about being one of his followers?

Now, let me throw this out to you. How many times does the word Christian occur in the New Testament? Christian. Total in the New Testament. Three. Just three.

Think, isn't it more than that? No, three. And the term Christianity didn't exist.

That doesn't occur at all. Three times. Where? Acts 11, where the believers, Jew and Gentile, together at Antioch are first called disciples.

Right? Then Acts 26, Paul speaking to Agrippa. Agrippa says, do you think you're going to make me a Christian this quickly? And 1 Peter 4, where Peter says, don't be ashamed if you suffer for that name, Christian, because it was a derogatory name. It would be like people who followed me being called Brownites. It was a derogatory name, these Christ people. And Peter's saying, when you suffer for that name, don't be ashamed. You're now sharing in the reproach, which means you'll share in the glory. What about the word believer?

Well, that occurs more often. That occurs, what, about 28 times in the New Testament. And of course, we're called to be people of faith, to follow him by faith. We're justified by faith. It's by his grace through faith. So, we understand that.

Amen. We are believers. But the most common way we're described in the New Testament is disciples. Over 260 times, there are references to disciples in the New Testament.

And in the Greek, mathetes, the Hebrew, talmid, has the same meaning. It is a student or learner, and from that, a follower. So, you say, well, that's just in the Gospels. Well, actually in Acts, the number of disciples grew. It's a common way of describing believers in Acts.

The reason it's not used in Paul's writings or the other letters is it would have a somewhat different meaning in the larger Greek-speaking world that would just emphasize being a student and did not have the same distinctive meaning of a Jesus follower that it has in the Gospels and Acts. But of course, the epistles are just as clear in terms of what it means to follow Jesus. So, let's look at what Jesus Yeshua himself says. The one who allegedly didn't draw lines, only circles. Listen to what he says about being a disciple. I'm not making this up. If you have an argument, it's not with me. Brown, you're a legalist. I'm just going to read his words, and I'll read the context, the surrounding, read the verses before or after, read the whole book, the books before or after.

Nothing changes. Matthew 16. Remember, everyone, all, come to me.

Matthew 11, 28-30. All, everyone, weary, heavy laden, come to me. I'll give you rest. You're weary, you're burdened. Everybody, come to me and find rest.

Right? That's the invitation. Whoever comes to me, I'll know what is cast out. John 6.

That's the invitation. Luke 5. The son of man came to call, not the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Yes? Here's what Jesus says. And some of these words are repeated often in the Gospels.

Matthew 16, 24 and 25. If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever would save his life would lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. If anyone, isn't that part of the all?

If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. You say, but I have deep desires to do this or do that. I have deep, deep-seated same-sex attraction. I deeply want to do this with my life.

My fundamental being craves this. Deny yourself. It's not your life.

It's not my life. You now belong to him. Luke 14.

This is after great crowds were following him. Luke 14, verses 26 and 27. If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. In the end, verse 33.

You guys just make a note for a team. We've got to add verse 33 in there. Lift it out. So therefore, any of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple. And this is what Jesus said. Those sound like lines to me. Don't they?

How could he be any more clear? You say, do I have to, I go home and I tell my wife I hate you? I tell my parents, I tell my kids I hate you? I look in the mirror and I say I hate you?

What are you saying? There are strong words there. It doesn't just mean love less. There are other ways to say love less. You have to make a complete break with every other hold on your life to follow him because he has absolute claim. He's not the first of many lovers.

He is the absolute one. Now from there, yeah, you'll be a better spouse, you'll be a better father, mother, child. You will now be a better human being in every way. And you will have an acceptance of yourself for who God made you to be. That would be, is wonderful.

But in terms of any hold on you, you must renounce everything. I plan to be a doctor. I plan to be a rock star. I plan to be an astronaut. I plan to, whatever. I plan to have a big family. I plan to have no family. You renounce everything. Lord, I now belong to you.

What do you have for me? That's what it means to be a disciple. And when he says, unless you do that, you can't, he's not saying, I won't let you.

That may be true as well. He's not just saying, here are the requirements. I'm not going to let you in otherwise.

No, no. What he's saying is it won't work. It won't work. It's like if you're completely out of shape and you get out of breath walking up one flight of steps and you say, hey, Dr. Brown, I'm going to run the marathon. I tell you, you can't run the marathon.

No, I'm going to do it. You can't. No, anyone can enter. Anyone can enter, but you can't run it. You can't run it. Why?

Because you won't be able to. That's what he's saying. You can't serve two masters.

You cannot serve two masters. Are these lines or what? Am I misrepresenting what he said? Am I misreading the Greek or what would have been original Hebrew or Aramaic? Pretty plain.

Pretty simple. More of the words of Jesus when we come back. This is Michael Ellison, founder of Travita Wellness. I want you to hear an amazing testimony from my friend, James Robison, and most all of you will know of him. He and his wife, Betty, host the Life Today television program. Now, here is James. Let me tell you about a miracle I experienced. My friend, Michael Ellison, he and his wife are our 40 year plus best friends.

Well, let me just say this to you. I had so much pain with what was called tennis elbow that I could hardly reach over and pick up the phone without pain, without it hurting me. I couldn't pick up something to drink, a glass of tea or anything.

It was very difficult to do anything without wearing a tight strap. And then Michael shared the Nopal cactus juice with me, Nopalaya. I began drinking about that much in the morning in a glass and that much later in the day. And in three months, I was a different person. I have now gone more than 10 years with no pain, not better. Well, I have no joint pain. I am telling you it did something to the inflammation in my body that was undeniable. Now that's just my testimony, but that's been more than 10 years with no pain. Matter of fact, if I miss for some foolish reason, a few days, I can feel it creeping back that fast. So give it a try, see if it helps relieve your pain. I hope it does like it has mine because it worked for me.

Nopalaya is supported by clinical studies for lowering inflammation and improving mobility, flexibility, and range of emotion in the neck, back and joints for less reliance on pain medication and improved quality of life. Call 800-771-5584 and use promo code BROWN25 to receive 25% off your order. As a new customer, 100% of your order goes to support the line of fire.

Call 800-771-5584 or go online to TriVita.com. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. Tomorrow, we're going to talk about cessationism, but from a different angle. And I think you're going to be intrigued by what I have to say and what the results of the broadcast will be. My friendly invitation to all those speaking at this cessationist conference or who appeared in the cessationist movie. So, scholars, professors, theologians, pastors, my personal friendly invitation to do a public, full-length, moderated debate on according to the Word of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit for today. According to the Word of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit for today. Maybe in three hours we can go back and forth and multiple cross-examinations and all of that.

I'd love to do it. You say, why? The women debate? Actually, for the glory of God and for the good of the body. Yeah.

So, people can hear, sort these things out for themselves to respected leaders. Well, I mean, you may respect me, you may hate me. I don't know.

But either way, that's my goal. We'll talk about that more tomorrow. I was interacting with a friend, if you just heard the ad from our co-sponsor TriVita, a friend that got some disc issues in her back and is trying nopalea now. We're just talking person. I said, yeah, check this out. So, same thing I told her. I'm telling you, call 800-771-5584. Find out what so greatly benefited James Robison. 800-771-5584.

Go to TriVita.com. Use the code BROWN25. 100% of your first order is donated to the line of fire. That's straight where it goes to help us reach more people on radio and in other platforms and more than a tithe of all subsequent orders.

So, if you're enjoying the product every time you order, more than a tithe of your subsequent order goes straight to the line of fire. More of the words of Jesus. What did the Lord say just to your average person, your everyday person? Let's go to Luke chapter 13. Luke 13, beginning verse 1. There was some president at that very time who told him, Jesus, about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. So, this Galilean's Pilate kills them, sheds their blood. Jesus said, do you think they're worse than all the other Galileans?

No, I'm telling you, no. Unless you repent, you'll all perish. Or those 18 on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them.

Do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. These are the words of the Savior who shed His blood for us.

That's what He says. Okay, so here's a tragedy, an earthquake, or just read about it this morning. Church building in Mexico, 50 years old, supposedly it's shown no signs of structural problems. It's baptism for a child or baby, obviously in keeping with the church's theology. And the roof collapses and 11 people are killed. Baptism confers communion.

11 people died at a church service. Oh, they must say their theology was wrong. I mean, God forbid we think like that, but some would. Jesus said, no, they're no worse than anybody else unless you repent, you'll all perish.

That's heavy stuff. That's what the Lord said to everybody. Well, repent just means change my mind about Jesus. No, that's not repentance. Repentance is a turnabout.

It's a turnaround. If we're driving down the road, say I'm near, we live outside of Charlotte, North Carolina, so I'm near Interstate 85. If I'm supposed to be going to the airport, which is south from where I am, and I got on I-85 heading north, and you're in the car with me.

Mike, what are you doing? I'm going to the airport. No, no, no, you're going the wrong direction. Dr. Brown, you're going the wrong direction. No, I go this way every day.

I know what I'm doing. Dr. Brown, you go, we're supposed to be going north. We're supposed to be going south. The airport is south from here. Check your GPS. I don't need the GPS.

I do this all the time. And then you say, Dr. Brown, look, look, look at the signs. Do you see the airport? Do you see Charlotte? Why is it it says Kannapolis?

Why does it say, it's like, oh, you're absolutely right. I'm heading in the wrong direction. If I keep driving in that direction, have I repented? No. Repentance is a change of mind that produces a change of heart and a change of life. It's a turnaround.

How about drawing lines? More of the words of Jesus. This is what he said to religious hypocrites. You serpents.

You brutal vipers. How are you to escape being sentenced to hell? You may say, well, Brown, you're a religious hypocrite.

Whatever you think of me. The fact is he drew clear lines, distinct lines. You wonder how clear it is? As I was reflecting on his words, and I could have quoted verse after verse after verse after verse after verse. In fact, it's far easier to find verses drawing lines in the teaching of Jesus than verses drawing circles. It's far easier to find where he's making clear separation and saying, this is what it means to be in and this is what it means to be out. It's easier to find those verses than to find the verses, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened. It's easier to find the exclusivistic verses. And remember, Jesus did not practice affirmational inclusion. He didn't sit with the prostitutes and the corrupt tax collectors and say, hey, I love you and embrace you right where you are. You go girl, and you ply your trade.

You go man, and you get that money. No, no, no. He didn't practice affirmational inclusion. He practiced transformational inclusion.

That's what he did. So, he met us where we were, where we are. He met me as a 16 year old heroine shooting LSD using rebellious rock drummer, Jewish kid in rebellion.

That's where he met me and showed me his love. The thing that brought transformation to my life, deep transformation to my life, after weeks and weeks of conviction of sin, the Holy Spirit convicted me of sin. I didn't even know it was the Holy Spirit then.

I just thought I got to change some of the drugs I'm using so they don't keep me up at night. But, it was the Holy Spirit convicting me and showing me my sin and stealing money from my father and putting my mother and father through so much grief and lying to my best friends and on and on. It was all that. The Holy Spirit convicted me, then giving me a revelation of his love. It was a revelation of how much Jesus loved me that then set me free and instantly, December 17th of 71, I said, I will never put a needle in my arm again. It was free from that day on. And two days later, I realized I shouldn't get high at all.

It was free from that day on. It was actually, prior to that, I started to feel uncomfortable about drinking and didn't have him drunk for now almost 52 years. So, yes, the incredible transforming love of God, he meets us where we are. But, it's far more common in the teachings of Jesus to find lines being drawn and standards being set. I mean, read the Sermon on the Mount.

Come on. You've heard it said don't commit adultery. I'm telling you, if you lust in your heart, you've committed adultery in your heart. If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off, throw it away.

Your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, throw it away. Yes, it's hyperbolic speech. It's metaphorical speech.

But, he's getting a point across. Do whatever you need to do to get rid of the stumbling blocks of sin lest you forfeit your own soul. So, I was thinking about different words of Jesus, just going through them in my head. I thought, well, is this the clearest drawing of lines of them all? Is this the simplest drawing of lines of them all?

How about this? Matthew 12, verse 30. Matthew 12, 30. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Shall I read it again? Matthew 12, 30. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Whoa! That is clear. And when you read through the Bible, you have, for example, in Torah law, the covenant, the blessings for obedience and the curses for disobedience. You get to Daniel 12, the first clear announcement of a future resurrection of righteous and wicked, that many who sleep in the dusty earth, so many, a lot of people, that's who the many are, a lot of people, many who sleep in the dusty earth will rise, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So there you have the final separation. And then through the gospels, the narrow way versus the broad way, the way of life versus the way of death and destruction. And then John 5, Jesus saying that the day is going to come when those in the graves will hear the voice of the Son of God, and some will rise to life, others will rise to damnation. Right through Paul's warning about coming judgment and wrath, Romans 2, there'll be wrath on everyone who walks in disobedience to the Jew first, also to the Gentile, and there'll be mercy and grace to everyone who walks in obedience to the Jew first, also to the Gentile, laying it out clearly. First John making clear you have the distinction between walking in the light and walking in the darkness, and one is being a child of God, the other is being a child of Satan. I mean, over and over, 1 John 5, 19, the weir of God, little children, the whole world was, and the power of the evil one. I give you verse after verse right to the end of the book of Revelation, where you have those whose names are written in the book of life and those who are thrown into the lake of fire. And where you have, here's the New Jerusalem, whether you look at this as a literal city, as I do in the future or a metaphorical image of the future glory, the fact is, those that are on the inside who've washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, and those on the outside are those who chose to live in willful disobedience sin. If you're struggling, there's mercy. If you want help, there's mercy. If you say, I will live the way I live, and I do not need Jesus as Lord, there are eternal consequences. Another program powered by the Truth Network.