From Grave Soaking to Bible Rubbing

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Well, you've heard about the controversial practice of grave soaking.

What about Bible rubbing? It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity.

Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. We're going to have some fun today, but we're going to get into the word that's going to be productive. So, we're going to have some fun, but it's going to be edifying and it may stretch some of you, but I want to get everyone thinking.

This is Michael Brown. Here's somebody to call. 866-34-TRUTH, 866-34-8 7 8 8 4. If you used to be charismatic, continuationist, Pentecostal, in other words, believed in speaking in tongues for today, or gift of prophecy for today, or healing as normative in the church, used to believe that and you don't any longer, I'd love for you to tell me why. If you were not charismatic, Pentecostal, continuationist, but you are now, I'd love to hear why. And scripturally, I'd love to hear, okay, here's why scripturally I don't believe these things are for today. Or here's why scripturally I do believe these things are for today.

Now, here's why it matters. If God has given us the power of the Spirit, if he has equipped us as his witnesses, and this is part of what we need to do his work effectively, to see the spread of the Gospel, to push back against the forces of spiritual darkness, if this is what we need to do the job, then by all means, we should embrace everything God has for us. We should embrace the gifts, the power, the anointing, the graces that he has, because it's his work, it's his name at stake. If this is how we better bear witness to him and glorify his name and make him known, and extend the Gospel all around the world, and hasten the return of Jesus in doing so, if that's the case, then overwhelmingly, we should embrace everything the Spirit is doing and everything the Spirit has for us as his people. Now, if it's not the case, if there's a lot of weirdness going on, a lot of spiritual deception, a lot of flesh, even demonic counterfeit, people claiming the things of the Spirit when, in fact, it's not really the Spirit, it's not really for today, then by all means, we should reject these things. We should expose what's wrong, we should expose the error, and we should just get back to what God has promised. So, either way, I think you'd have to agree it's important, either this is something essential God is doing in the earth today, and something that he has given his people, so that we can better do his work and serve him more effectively.

And friends, to be frank, if part of my calling is to see a healthy church, and that starts with a healthy you, yet we're not talking about physically today, but spiritually, then I want to see you thriving in everything God has for you, and I want to be an example to the body, thriving in everything God has. At the same time, you better believe it's important that we reject the counterfeit, that we reject that which claims to be the Spirit and is not, that which is false, claiming to be true. So, it's important that we sort this out. Either there is a massive outpouring taking place around the world that is bringing hundreds of millions of people to Jesus, which is in fact the greatest outpouring worldwide in the history of the church, in terms of people coming to faith, converts, disciples, around the world, numbering hundreds and hundreds of millions, and happening with exponential increase since the beginning of the last century, or there is a mass deception spreading around the earth that is bringing hundreds of millions of people into a false experience with a false Jesus. And either way, I think you agree, this is something very, very important.

Okay. So, maybe you heard controversy having to do with Bethel Church, people involved in the church, some involved in leadership, students from the ministry school doing something that got called grave soaking or grave sucking, where some of these folks would go and let's say there was a grave site of a famous Christian leader, a famous missionary, and they'd go there and they'd lay on the site and just say, oh God, give me some of that anointing. The anointing, the grace that was on them, give it to me, and they would lay there as if they were sucking the sand spiritually. Now, frankly I don't know anyone who's done that, to be totally candid, I don't know anyone personally. I have no personal friend who's done that, no personal colleague who's done that, nor do I know anywhere where it's practiced on a regular basis around the world. So, let's just say there 650 million charismatic Pentecostal continuationists around the world today, that's a fairly fair estimate, at least 600 million, if it was 6,000 people that actually did this, which to me is a crazy high number, crazy high number. But if it was, alright, that would be one in a thousand worldwide. So, what is representative?

If one in a thousand people in your denomination believes a certain thing, one in a thousand people in your church holds to a certain thing, one in a thousand people in your circle of friends hold to it, that is fringe, fringe, fringe, fringe, fringe. Nonetheless, it's got a lot of attention. So, some years ago, Bill Johnson had a new book coming out, pass through Bill Johnson, a publisher that we've both worked with, reached out to me just in image and said, hey, would you like to have him on the air to talk about his book? I said, absolutely. But because there are a lot of controversial questions surrounding Bethel, as long as I can answer the questions. So, Bill and our colleagues, not close friends, but colleagues with mutual respect and honor, and then some differences in practice and other things along the way.

But mutual colleagues, and I believe that God's used Bill and Bethel in great ways, and then I have differences with certain things. We've communicated honestly, candidly. But if he was going to be on the air, it was only fair that I would ask him a lot of the questions that come my way. So, this was our discussion from several years back about the phenomenon of, quote, grave soaking. I want to ask you one other question that's come up a lot and people ask me to ask you about it. I want to read something that your associate colleague for many years, Chris Vallaton, wrote. He said, I've been asked what I think about grave sucking several times lately.

It's May 19, 2015 he wrote this. Personally, I'd never heard the phrase before a couple of months ago. I guess they're asking if I believe you can receive some dead person's anointing by laying on their grave. So he says he thinks it came from 2 Kings 13 where the bones of a dead man was thrown on the bones of Elisha and the person survived and stood up to his feet. And he says this, it's been an inside joke among our Bethel team for years.

I really thought it was funny until some folks took it seriously. I mean if God wanted us to receive some kind of impartation from people who have already passed then certainly we would have some New Testament examples or instruction on it. Furthermore, if you could receive some gift from people after they died then why did Joseph want Jacob to lay hands on his sons before he passed that they could just as easily have received an impartation from the funeral? I think the Elisha story was never meant to be repeated as there are no other accounts of it in the Bible. The Scriptures need to be the foundation in which we base all of our experiences. Chris writes, So Bill, I apologize for having to ask some of the questions but they come up so much and I want to remove any misunderstanding so people can find out what you really have to say. So do you endorse, preach, teach, encourage the practice of going to the graves of deceased men and women of God to try to suck the anointing out of the earth?

Absolutely not. We don't talk to the dead, we don't look for impartation from the dead, we don't worship the dead, but I will go to, I've gone to Charles Finney's gravesite and I'll pray God do in our country what you did through him and I'll use it as a point of faith to, I feel like we are supposed to honor, I don't know that we need to go to a gravesite, but I have gone, I've gone to Evan Roberts and I've prayed there God do what you did in Wales, do it again, release it all over the earth. So I use it as a point of reminder of how God used somebody in the past, but not to receive from them, but just as a like a postcard or something to remind you of some other place. Alright, hang on here for a second.

Hang on. I want to point out something a friend sent me this post on Instagram it is from Pastor Steve Lawson. Steve Lawson a friend, colleague of John MacArthur, a great preacher of the word of God respected Reform leader himself, cessationist so I have great respect for his ministry and then obviously have differences on various theological points, but check this out, check this out. This is posted on Instagram three days ago and he's there in clerical robes and he's got his hand, his knuckles and his thumb on a big Bible, alright. Before I preach today on Martin Lloyd-Jones' pulpit at Westminster Chapel I was able to put on his Genevan preaching robe and open his pulpit Bible to Romans, truly an honor hoping something would rub off on the heresy of Bible rubbing and cloak wearing. We've gone from the heresy of grave soaking to the heresy of Bible rubbing, putting his hand on a Bible and putting the garment on of this man of God who's been deceased for decades, putting that on with the hope that something would rub off on him. Heresy!

Heresy! Everybody storm his sight and expose this terrible, okay, I'm not worked up about this in the lead, I get it. I understand what he's saying, and obviously tongue in cheek about something rubbing off on him, but is it so odd that he did that? Okay, so I repudiate, I reject an idea of grave soaking, grave sucking, it's wrong, I never supported it, I reject it, I absolutely affirm with Chris Valatin, the executive pastor at Bethel said it's wrong, I affirm with Bill Johnson said it's wrong, we all reject it, we all reject it. But can you understand some sincere 18, 19 year old going to the grave site of a previous man or woman of God and laying on it and saying, oh God, give me some of what they had, let me receive some of what they had.

There was an anointing, there was a grace, there was something on it, may I receive it? Just like, just like Steve Lawson, he puts on the man's preaching outfit. He puts his hand on his pulpit Bible hoping something would quote, rub off on him. Obviously it's just a picture, and he's not making a theological statement, but I get it.

I understand why God would do, why someone would do that. I can understand you go to a historic church where God moved mightily, or a missions post where God moved mightily, or stand behind the pulpit of a famous preacher and say, oh God, give me some of what they had. Lord, may that anointing come on me Lord, you anointed them to shake a nation, use me to shake a nation. Or this great prayer warrior you go to where they used to kneel in prayer, oh God, may that same spirit of prayer come on me. Why do we make such a fuss about, why do we get so worked up about this? Heresy! Calm down. I understand why people do these things, and if I was a heresy hunter, I'd go after Steve Lawson now.

But we're going to come back and look at Scripture, we're going to come back and look at Scripture. You can weigh in, you can agree with me, differ with me, that's why the phone lines are open, 866-348-7884. Quick word from our co-sponsor, Tribuda. Nopalea, made from the super fruit of the Nepal cactus, containing a unique group of bioflavonoids clinically shown to reduce chronic inflammation. In a random double-blind placebo-controlled study, it showed a reduction of elevated at-risk C-reactive protein levels, resulting in an improvement in range of motion in the back, neck, and joints, and an overall improvement in the quality of life.

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866-348-7884. Were you formerly a systematic Pentecostal continuationist and you're not any longer? You're still a follower of Jesus but you're not any longer? Tell me why.

Or the reverse. You came to faith in an environment that did not believe saying healing is a normative thing today or tongues or prophecy is normative today and now you believe those things. Why?

Or why do you differ with me based on scripture? 866-344. We're going to go to the word momentarily. But first, what do you make of this report?

I mean it's a really weird report. So this preacher, this tribal preacher in Africa comes upon this demonized man. The guy's wreaking havoc in his village.

And it's this wild scene. The preacher drives the demons out of him and next thing there's a stampede of gazelles. The preacher allegedly drove the demons into the gazelles. There's a stampede of gazelles and they run off a cliff. And crash and die.

Like 200 of them. That's weird. Oh no, actually I just made that up. But something like that does happen in the Bible with the ministry of Jesus. Remember it?

Yeah. What did you think of this one? Another weird one. This preacher in India there's a kid that dies and they're praying for his resurrection from the dead. It's like, I don't know, over a day he's been dead.

And this preacher known for miracles is just coming by the village. So they bring the boy out, the corpse, and he actually lays on the boy. He lays on the boy. He lays on him. He puts his mouth on the boy's mouth, his nose on the boy, just eye to eye, nose to nose, face to face, and breathes into him.

And the kid comes back to life. So that's weird. Okay, I just made that up also, but that's how Elisha raised the dead in 2 Kings. That's kind of odd, isn't it?

Or did you hear about this? This is like a really weird one. Again, tribal region, this is actually India as well, tribal region, and he's chopping wood, and the axe head goes flying off and it sinks.

It's like a pond, but it's deep and it's infested with nasty creatures in there. There's no way he's going in to get it. But there's a man of God there that says, I'll get it for you. And he takes this, this is a weird thing. He takes like this bundle of rocks, just puts it in a little sack and throws it in, and the axe head floats to the surface.

That's weird. Okay, I made that up too. Yeah, that's in the Bible, with Elisha causing an axe head to float by throwing something else in. Or how about healing a blind person or deaf person by spitting on their hand and putting it on them?

Or spitting on the person? And don't you know in the days of Jesus, you know who used spittle to heal in the days of Jesus? Magicians! Magicians did. A famous New Testament scholar of the last generation wrote a book called Jesus the Magician. He was going to show how Jesus used magical practices. And then if you go back to Old Testament times, the Babylonians and the different gods they worshipped, remember there's a god in the Old Testament called Marduk.

So Marduk was the head of the Babylonian pantheon. And it was said of Marduk that he had the spittle of life. In other words, he healed people or raised the dead through his spittle. Now Jesus used his spittle to heal the sick.

If there were heresy hunters around in Jesus' day, they certainly would have nailed him. Why didn't he just say be healed to the deaf and mute man, or to the blind man? Why does he take dirt, spits on it, turns it into mud, puts it on the guy's eyes, and says go wash in the pool of Siloam? Why not just say, see, eyes be open?

Why not just lay his hands on them? Well, God has his reasons, and he often does things in ways very different than what we expect. So, let's just go back to Scripture. Let's go back to Scripture. Let's go to Acts chapter 2. Alright, Acts chapter 2, beginning in verse 14. Acts 2, beginning in verse 14. So the Holy Spirit's been poured out on the 120 in an unprecedented way. A great crowd gathers at Shavuot, Pentecost, the Feast of Weeks.

Devout Jews have come from all over the world. Apparently they hear the sound of the blowing, violent wind. They hear the men speaking these foreign languages. Looks like they're drunk to half the crowd, or some of the crowd.

Were they staggering? Were they whatever it was, because Peter references what you see and hear. But he stands up, Peter stands up at the 11, and he says fellow Jews, everyone lives in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you, listen carefully. These people are not drunk.

It's just 9 in the morning, literally the third hour of the day, so it starts 6 a.m. 9 in the morning. They're not drunk, but rather this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel. In the last days, God says, now Peter added those words, in the last days. They're not in the Hebrew.

And in the last days, not in the Greek either. Peter added these words, in the last days, God says. So are we living in the last days? Have we been living in the last days the last 2,000 years?

Yeah, okay, so let's keep reading that. In the last days, God says, I will pour out my spirit on all people. So when? During the last days, the period in which we live now. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

This is to be something ongoing. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit in those days and they will prophesy. So this is going to be the norm in the spirit called the last days. Sons and daughters prophesying, young men seeing visions, old men dreaming dreams. Okay, let's go over to 1 Corinthians 14.1.

1 Corinthians 14.1, after Paul has outlined the way of love, 1 Corinthians 14.1, what does Paul say there? Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the spirit, or spiritual gifts. Eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy.

Right? Not preaching is different than prophecy, teaching is different than prophecy. This is a directive from Paul, not a idea or maybe something you might want to think about.

No, this is a directive. I'm telling you to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy. Let's go to the end of the chapter, after he talks about proper order and how things should operate in the spirit. What does he say at the end of 1 Corinthians 14? Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues. And remember, but Paul also writes to the Corinthians, if all of you are speaking in tongues, someone comes from the outside, they're going to think you're speaking gibberish. Literally in Greek, they're going to think you're barbarians, because barbarians sound like they're saying bar, bar, bar, bar, but what is, they're foreigners, they're outsiders. They're going to just think you're speaking gibberish, is basically what Paul's saying, because they're not going to understand.

Just like the accusation today, you're speaking gibberish. So, we have a directive in the word to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, a directive in the word not to forbid speaking in tongues, and a promise from God that in these last days, the spirit will be poured out, sons and daughters, servants will prophesy, and it's going to be a widespread thing, not just on a chosen few, widespread, and young men will see visions, old men will dream dreams. This will be normative in this period in which we live until Jesus returns and the last days come to an end. So, when I was trying to get away from the gifts of the spirit, trying to get away from tongues and prophecy, the late 70s, early 80s, questioning a lot of these things, reading books against it in strongly reformed circles and with colleagues who were strongly cessationist, it was the word that convinced me. The word that convinced me that I was wrong. The word that convinced me that the gifts of the spirit were for today, regardless of what I saw or not. Whether I saw anybody healed, healing was for today. Whether I saw true prophecy, prophecy was for today.

I was convinced by the word, and then the spirit confirmed it, and of course, he's moving gloriously, wonderfully all around the world. And we may differ here, I'm not going to divide over it. I teach at cessationist schools sometimes, I participate in cessationist conferences, recently spoke to a gathering of cessationist leaders, just appointed among the culture wars. I serve and honor my cessationist brothers.

I'm not better than you, bigger than you, stronger than you. I simply say, if God's given us something that will glorify him and touch this world, we need to embrace it. And not get all worked up with this heresy hunting. Let's save heresy hunting for real heresy, then let's hunt it together. We'll be right back.

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On your app you can click give and join us there. Okay one more thing I want to say. As a leader in the charismatic movement, by God's grace I have been called to correct a lot of error in our midst. So I'm not God's chief policeman, I am not as one person called me the gatekeeper of the charismatic movement, there is no such thing. I'm not the pope over Pentecostals Carismatics, plenty of the 600 plus million Carismatics Pentecostals around the world have no idea I exist. But where I have seen abuses, it is part of my calling to bring correction. And it's certainly a biblical calling that leaders should embrace. So 1991 I wrote the book Whatever Happened to the Power of God, but the subtitle is The charismatic Church Slain in the Spirit or Down for the Count. And in point of fact that followed on the end of the American Gospel Enterprise in 89 and How Saved Are We in 90 and It's Time to Rock the Boat in 93, all of which directly address issues, weaknesses, problems within the charismatic Pentecostal movement in particular. Then in 2018 I wrote Playing with Holy Fire, a wake up call to the Pentecostal Charismatic Church, and often behind the scenes over the years I have been in private contact with leaders saying hey this is not right or I saw this in your book and it concerned me or did you realize what people are saying, etc. So I'm very happy when I see error just like I welcome the correction in my own life where there's a problem or an issue to be sharpened, and this is on a very regular basis, sharpen me, help me to grow and be more like Jesus. So we do this, but I'm not God's corrector in chief. And many of the things get people all worked up. I was interacting with someone producing some films and they're going to do this 30 minute episode on grave soaking or this one hour episode, whatever it was on grave soaking, I thought why? Leaders of Bethel have repudiated it, leaders of Bethel where some people at practice say it's wrong, say it's unbiblical.

Why? Why on earth would you put out a whole video about it, especially when it represents a fringe over fringe over fringe over fringe over fringe over fringe over fringe over fringe over but I also said to this individual, but hang on. The thing itself, you're blowing out of all proportion. It's not some, I am going to commune with the dead, I am going to get revelation from the dead.

No, it's just people with a misguided practice. But it's not that markedly different from what Steve Austin did, putting on the D. Martin Lloyd-Jones pulpit outfit, putting his hand on the pulpit bible that he used and saying maybe some of it would rub off on me. He's communicating with the dead, the spirits of the dead. No, he's not doing that.

He would never think of doing that. And even if some of it's tongue in cheek, why pose for that picture? Why do, because you're thinking, hey there's God, you used this man a certain way, give me, give me some of what he had. What's wrong with, what's wrong with that? What's heretical about that?

Why get so worked up over it? And what I often find to be candid, that some of my charismatic friends will believe anything, they have no filter, no discernment it seems, they'll believe anything, and it's very concerning and disturbing. And then I have some cessationist friends that will do what Jesus rebuked the hypocritical leaders for, which is straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. They'll spread divisive stuff about other brothers and sisters in the body. They'll produce things that generate hate and division.

They will even bear false witness by taking things out of context if it helps their cause, while focusing on a tiny issue. It's like, no, no, no. Those are both dangerous extremes and both negative and destructive. I say this last thing then I'm going to the phones. I was talking to a colleague about the supernatural and talking about the need for more discernment and concerns I had with gullibility in our movement. And he didn't differ with me on that, but he said, Mike, if you just read the Bible, you're just in a room alone reading the Bible, would you expect to see supernatural things happening today? Would you expect to see unusual things happening?

Would you expect to see divine visitations and unusual miracles and even angelic visitations? The answer is yeah, because there's not a hint in scripture that all of this was to stop. 1 Corinthians 13, 8-10 absolutely does not say that, and this verse was not quoted for centuries and centuries and centuries with some idea that when the canon was completed, the outpouring would stop or the gifts would cease. That's a more recent interpretation than the fringe one at that. It's becoming increasingly fringe. You'll see more and more top commentators on 1 Corinthians, even cessationists rejecting that argument with all respect to those that still hold to it. It's outdated, outmoded, unhistorical, and exegetically false. But if you just reading it, you think, okay, the parting of the Red Sea or the Jordan River, those were unique things in time, or Elijah being caught up to heaven in chariots so far in a whirlwind.

That was like a one-time thing. But you'd expect to see healings on a regular basis, especially when Jacob James, the fifth chapter, makes it an ongoing church practice with a sick person. You go to them, obviously, you know, laid up, you go to them, and the elders pray over them in faith in the name of the Lord and anoint them with oil, and the prayer offered in faith makes a sick person well. You just expect to see healings on a regular basis. You'd expect to see tongues, prophecy, you'd expect to see these things happen.

You'd have no clue that they're not for today if you just were shut in the room reading the Bible. And then if you were brought all around the world where these things are happening, you'd think, yeah, how come we're not seeing it even more? That would be your question.

Why aren't we seeing it even more? And then what? The churches that don't believe in this for today? What? Where'd that come from?

I'm just being candid. And again, to me, all starts with Scripture, Scripture, Scripture, Scripture, Scripture, Scripture. That's where on my doctoral dissertation was on the Hebrew word for healing, because I had to understand what the Bible actually said, because I was trying to sort these things through in my life, having embraced them when I was a new believer, then started to reject them and really question them, and then being convinced by the Word again that these things were true, but yet being turned off by some wrong practices, I had to go back to the Word, the Word, the Word, the Word.

Everything flows from there for me. So, I encourage you and challenge you, do that. Just read the Word over and over and over, ask God for insight, and think, well, what should we expect? What should we believe?

What should be the norm? Alright, with that, let's go to the phones. We will start with Michelle in Reese, Michigan. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Hi, thank you for taking my call. So, I was steeped in Catholicism from child till 24, 24 years of age until about three years ago, I'm 58 now, Reformed theology.

Steeped in both of them. I just, MacArthur, Piper, Baucom, Alistair Begg, they were my heroes. Now, God has exposed me to you. Frontier Alliance International, Art Katz, Mike Bickel, Reggie Kelly, I see things very differently, and I praise God for that. My love for Israel is growing. He's giving me understanding, but the thing I'm struggling with is longing.

You gave a lot of examples today. You kind of already answered my question, but it is what I'm struggling with, is I long to have an experience with God that I've never had in my life. I long to know Him. Yes, Michelle, I have you here, you're on the right path, because everybody thinks I'm nuts right now.

My family, friends, nobody wants to listen to me about God's love for Israel, and I'm praying for these gifts, and I'm struggling with praying for these gifts because of how I was raised as a Catholic, as a Reformed theology. So, Michelle, I'm just going to start here, and then we'll continue on the other side of the break, but that's why I'm jumping in. I want to make sure I can answer before the break, and then if we need more time, we'll continue after. But first, I'm thrilled with the background that you have, right? Coming out of Catholicism, it gives you a certain reverence for God and a sense of God moving through history, and then the men of God you mentioned, the John MacArthur's and John Piper's and Vadie Balcom and others, great teachers of the Word, men who preach and teach holiness and believe in that, who emphasize the centrality of God. That's great.

I'm so glad. And now, encountering what I can bring, or Art Katz, who is a deep, deeply spiritual man, Mike Bickel, just a man of prayer and the Word and a Jesus lover, and Sally with great insights on Israel. So, I think it's a great way to build.

You know what I'm saying? You've got lots of different foundations that can be very, very helpful, even as you reject certain aspects of some of those foundations along the way. So, the key is, obviously, you know that you're a child of God because of Jesus dying for you and having to witness in your own spirit that you're saved, as opposed to even experienced beyond it. So, you know that, that's the foundation, but there is this longing for everything God has for you, because when you read the Word, you know there's more. You know there's an aspect of his embrace, of his love, of his goodness for you that, you know, the fellowship of the Spirit that Paul writes about. So, you know, a key thing, a key thing here, and we'll come back on the other side of the break, a key thing here is say, Father, I want everything you have for me.

Instead of praying for specific gifts, Lord, I want everything you have for me so I can best glorify you, so I can know you more deeply and experience you more richly so I can make Jesus known to more people, even God's heart for Israel. So, stay right there, Michelle, and we'll get right back to you on the other side of the break. ... ... ... ... Nopalaya has helped thousands of people by lowering levels of chronic inflammation. I really enjoy being physical. It's something I've just always loved, but I've definitely had times where it's really crippled me up.

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Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. By the way, real life, because you know you always get it straight from me, we have a friend, a young lady friend of the family we've known her entire life and for some years now she suffered from arthritis. Young lady, healthy in all other respects, and so I talk with my colleagues at Triveda about Nopalaya and we just shipped her a whole bunch of bottles several months supply.

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Or if it's easier, go to triveda.com and then use the code BROWN25. That'll ensure you the best discount and then 100% of your first order will be donated to the ministry. Okay, so I want to go back to Michelle.

You still there? I am. Okay, so a question for you. Because some people will be listening and they're still where you were a few years ago in terms of your own thinking. And they're saying, well, Michelle you have the Word, the Bible is enough, why are you looking for this deeper experience? Could you explain what's in your heart to our listeners?

Oh boy. I'm looking for this deeper experience because I'm realizing that I haven't been given all of the truth. Michael Heizer was somebody else that came into my life three years ago, but in the aspect of the spiritual realm, and the church totally ignores that.

And now everything makes so much more sense to me. Scripture makes so much more sense to me, but I long I've always longed. It's got to be God that has given me this desire to know Him more intimately and where I used to believe, like what the Reformers said, we don't do these gifts anymore, we don't have these. At worship and church I feel very awkward because it's like I feel like I hold myself back, and it's wanting to come out, but I feel like I hold myself back. Michelle, are you able to say to put on some worship music or worship service on a YouTube video or something where it's a powerful, charismatic expression and feel like you can enter in much more and experience God through worship much more deeply?

Probably. I actually can say that I could. Yeah, let me encourage you to do that in your own home, to find some worship songs that really minister to you, and that are really Jesus-centered and exalt the Lord. And maybe it's a worship service that you enter into, or maybe it's just the song from a live service or something, but I think that would really help bring you into that presence or encounter. The thing that transformed my life, once God had convicted me of sin, I mean as a non-believing, heroin-shooting, LSD-using, rebellious kid what changed my life was encountering God in this absolutely dynamic way with the love of God and the joy of God poured into my heart, seeing these little ditty hymns of pastors right playing piano in this little church with maybe 50 people there, but I got overwhelmed with the sense of God's love through me through joy that came through worship, and that's when I said, what am I doing with this drugs and junk? And I said, God, I'll never put a needle in my arm again.

It was instantly set free. But it was that experience, look it does say in His presence this fullness of joy, right, Psalm 16 we do read as I mentioned 2 Corinthians 13 about the fellowship, the participation in the Holy Spirit and you're right, when you read the Bible, we should know Him we should have a relationship with Him, He said His sheep hear His voice that's ongoing. So, Michelle, do you have my book Authentic Fire? I do not. Okay. But you're a reader, yes? I am. Okay. Do you have my book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood? I do not, no.

Okay, perfect. What I want to do is I want to send you these two books, Authentic Fire is a gracious response to Pastor John MacArthur's strange fire book, but in it I have chapters about the gifts and power of the Spirit for today and a whole chapter about experiencing God. And I think as you read this it will give you even more scripture foundation and then Our Hands Are Stained with Blood is the history of anti-Semitism in the church and God's eternal purposes for Israel. I believe as you read this a lot will fall into place and your burden will deepen and Michelle, you are anything but alone.

There are literally hundreds of millions around the world who believe as you believe based on scripture and your own prayer, real simple, Lord, give me everything you have to best glorify you. Give me the fullness of the Spirit you have from my life to best glorify you. And I want to know, it's not Father, Son, and Holy Bible, right?

No, it's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and it's the Word of God that tells us that. Alright, so Michelle, our call screener is going to get your contact info, we'll mail those two books to you as a gift. Once you get to read them a few weeks or months from now give us a call back and Kai and Chris let our team know the two books that we're sending out. Alright, with that thank you for the call and for your candor. And for everybody else have you ever read Oswald Chambers? My Utmost for His Highest, My Upmost for His Highest, Daily Devotion is the best selling I think to this day, Daily Devotional.

Yeah, so truth, go ahead and you can grab our call, great. So, when you read his stuff there's an incredible depth to it, but he was in an early Pentecostal basically, the early Pentecostal League he went through a crisis where he was a leader, he was recognized as a teacher and enjoyed great communion with God and then heard F.B. Meyer I believe preach on Luke 11 13, if you being evil know how to do goodness to your children how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him? So he just said, Lord, give me the Holy Spirit. And he said the next five years, he said the only thing that kept him out of an insane asylum was the grace of God and the kindness of his He enjoyed no conscious communion with God for five years. Five years he enjoyed no conscious communion with God and he got to the point where he got up publicly at the end of a service and said either I've got this thing by the wrong end of the stick or if what I have is all the Christianity there is the thing is a fraud. There was a sister leading the meeting and she said, oh, our brother was not speaking for himself he was speaking for us, you know, like for us to go deeper and he said as hard as it was to set up the first time he stood up a second time and he said I didn't speak for anyone I was speaking for myself. Either I've got this by the wrong end of the stick or if what I have is all the Christianity there is the thing is a fraud.

And what happened? The Spirit of God touched him dramatically, filled him dramatically and he said if the previous five years, writing five years later were hell on earth, the last five had been heaven on earth, he said I was there when it happened it happened to me, I was there when it happened. He had a deep encounter with the Holy Spirit which shaped and marked his life which is why when you read his stuff it's so deep but he hungered and thirsted long saying God I know there's more. No, we're not adding to the Bible. The Bible is telling us there's more. The Bible is telling us we can know God more intimately.

The Bible is telling us God wants to be more intimately involved in our lives and wants to work through us in more dynamic ways that will glorify his son Jesus. Yes. Alright back to the phones, let's go to Mike in Redlich, Texas. Welcome to the Line of Fire. How are you doing?

Doing well, thank you. You were saying earlier I caught your you know, your broadcast where you said if you're a penny coster they give a call and I did receive the Holy Ghost by speaking in tongues when I was about 14 and I can do that on demand, you know I can do that but I wasn't trained in new language. So how was it at 14 that you received the Spirit? My grandfather was an ordained minister and would take me to Sunday school and church and then I was baptized and then that night I received the Holy Ghost. I was baptized in Jesus' name. Okay so you were baptized then received the Spirit and began to speak in tongues. So what you're saying is the experience of hundreds of billions around the world. No one taught you to do it, right? They didn't say these words, repeat after me, and look we could all speak, I could go blah blah blah, blah blah blah, we could all speak gibberish but when the Holy Spirit moves on you and speaks to you something does happen and look, all I want to say, Mike thank you for calling, so at 14 was he faking it, has he been faking it all the years since the decades since then, right? Here's the point. Look at what the Word says, alright? That's all I encourage you to do, is look at what the Word says if you pray, you study, you read the Word inside and out back and forth and you conclude I'm wrong on these things okay, we have a difference, we're brothers and sisters in Jesus, we agree on what matters the most, if you say I'm wrong, fine we shouldn't expect this today, it's not for today, prophecy is not for today, et cetera, et cetera, okay we have a difference, but if you read the Word and you think what do I do with this, because I don't believe it, my church doesn't teach it, my own experience is against it, but the Word seems to say this is for today and 1 Corinthians 14, 1 is pretty blunt to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially that we may prophesy and Acts 2 is pretty blunt that this is the outpouring for the last days and I go on and on with other scriptures and promises and just say Lord, I want to be the most effective witness I can I want to glorify you the best way that I can I want the most people to know Jesus through my life I want to stand for you and what's right and I want to know you as intimately and fully as I can know you in this world so Father, everything you have for me, for the glory of your name and for the depth of our relationship, give it to me and I'm going to keep seeking and asking until you do is that not the scriptural thing to do if you're convinced by the Word? Hey, God bless friends, we'll be back with a great show tomorrow Another program powered by the Truth Network