Jonathan Cahn Sounds the Alarm

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network.

Jonathan Cahn has a crucial message for America. It's time for the Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the Line of Fire. And now here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the Line of Fire. Michael Brown, coming your way from our great studio at CFNI Christ for the Nations Institute in Dallas, Texas. Oh, let's see, since Friday night, I have been in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Had the incredible opportunity to pour into about seven thousand young people at the SEND event on Saturday. Hungry for God, spoke on revival. Then Sunday morning, Great Church, radiant in Kalamazoo, Michigan, Sunday morning, spoke to their Monday morning, spoke to their ministry school students on Labor Day, then flew to CFNI, ministered yesterday morning, last night and this morning. Flash me to Orlando, scheduled to speak at a revival conference in Orlando Friday, then Knoxville, Tennessee, Saturday morning at Messianic congregation there Sunday morning at the Gathering Church. So if you're anywhere in these areas, make sure you join us. If you don't get my emails, then you don't know that we let you know when I'm coming in your area. So go to AskDrBrown.org, sign up. OK, one piece of business I want to take care of.

And then the rest of the show, every single minute of our airtime is devoted to my guest, Jonathan Cahn. If you have not yet taken our workout challenge, if you're working out, if you're trying to get in better shape, let me encourage you to do this. Call 771-5584. Our friends at TriVita, 771-5584. You want to order one month's supply of nitric oxide, mild health.

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The folks there would love to help you get hooked up. OK, Jonathan Cahn and I have known each and every other for, oh, a couple of decades now. And we have mutual appreciation in that we carry the same kind of burdens. When we sit together and talk, we don't talk book sales. We don't talk. We talk the fear of God. We talk coming judgment.

We talk revival. And every time one of his new books comes in, it's about to be released. He'll contact me some months in advance and say, Michael, would you like to do an interview the day the book comes out? Or in this case, the day after the book comes out. So he's given us pride of place because he gets flooded with interview requests.

So all of our line of our listeners, this is a real privilege and blessing that we have. And I get so thrilled. I immediately check and see the day the book comes out. It's a national bestseller. And he's doing the opposite of tickling people's ears. Think of that.

And people want to read his newest book, The Josiah Manifesto. We're going to talk about that the next hour. So, Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us. Hang on here, trying to get you connected. Chris, if you could put Jonathan on for me for some reason, my screen is not responding here. We'll get Jonathan on momentarily. Not sure what's going on. Let me just reset here and we will be good to go.

Or truth, if you could just put my guest on either way. Jonathan, are you there? OK, we will get this worked out. This is this is a yet another. Here we go. Jonathan, can you hear me?

Are you there, sir? Jonathan. OK. All right, we'll give this one more shot. Not quite sure what has happened, but Chris and truth, if you could be working on this. Yes, a little embarrassing as we speak to everybody nationally and have pumped this day and this show, and Jonathan is graciously giving us his time. But, Jonathan, if you can't hear me, we will get connected one way or another here. So everybody stay tuned. I will be on with Jonathan Kahn momentarily. Oh, yes.

The joys of live radio, especially for multi locations. All right, so. So when when we talk about wake up calls to the nation, when we when we talk about what is the spirit saying, these these are not lightweight matters, friends. These are not matters of we're just speculating or someone's just writing books. We're talking about life and death issues. We're talking about things that that affect potentially millions and millions and millions of lives. And and when it comes to that, this is this is not.

How can I say it? This is not just prophetic speculation. This this is not you've got your theory.

I've got my theory. Some students were asking me questions today at CFNI. They were asking me questions about, well, is, you know, the and these legitimate questions, prophecy questions. Well, someone told me I only have seven or eight years because Jesus is coming before then.

What about that? And someone said, well, in the Book of Daniel, there's the vision of the statue and and and it's got feet and it's got ten toes. So did the ten toes signify the ten districts of the UN? And then someone else said they're learning about aliens. And could it be demons?

Well, into aliens is going to be some fake rapture. And I said, hey, don't worry about any of those things. Don't even think twice about any of those things whatsoever, because number one, most are completely bogus. Number two, they don't affect anything in terms of how you live today.

They don't affect anything in terms of our responsibility to God today. How would it live for him? How were to honor him? How were to serve him? How were to be his people? That's what matters. And and as Jonathan has been sounding the alarm, the whole purpose of sounding alarm is so that we know what to do today.

Friends, when the prophets of Israel spoke, did they just speak about the future? Here, let's let's give you a different picture. OK, let's say you're a mom and you hear screaming and banging upstairs. You run upstairs and your two boys, ten and nine, are not just play wrestling, but they're in a fight. And the one kids trying to pound the other kid and their kids trying to kick the other kid, once trying to bite, once trying to scratch as a mother, as a mother, would you say, I'm going to give the prediction that the 10 year olds can beat the nine year olds? The nine year olds going to surprise the 10. No, you say, kids, stop. Boys, stop right now. Stop that. You know, give us a prediction the same way with all the political prophecies, who's going to win?

It's like, no, no, no. Talk to us about how the church should live. Talk, talk to us about how we should live today, how we should conduct ourselves today, how we can honor God today. So the prophets didn't just bring an abstract message of coming judgment or coming blessing, the whole purpose was either to warn us to warn us in such a way that we would now live differently or conversely, to give us word of encouragement, how God would honor our obedience to him and don't fear the current attack because God is with us.

Let me give you a beautiful example of this. All right, Isaiah, the second chapter, one of the most famous prophecies in the Bible. If you go to the UN in New York City, you'll see this engraved in the plaque. And this is how the the nations of the world will come streaming to Jerusalem to learn from Yahweh, the God of Israel. You know, the passage by Yahweh, O'Harete, and they'll come to pass at the end of days. It's a wonderful passage. And they'll beat their swords into plowshares. A nation will not make war anymore. There'll be no more war on the earth.

It's an amazing thing. And the nations say, as it's painted here in Hebrew, come. Let's go up to the house of the Lord and let's learn from his ways. So here's a glorious promise, a glorious prophecy of what is coming in the future, a glorious prophecy of the great things to come. Is that where Isaiah leaves it?

Does he just leave it with a beautiful picture of what's coming? No, that's that's Isaiah two verses one through four in verse five, verse five, he turns around and then says to his people, using a play on words, almost the exact same words that the nations used, he now uses as an exhortation to his people. The Hebrew sounds very, very similar.

It says, come, O'Harete Jacob, come. Let's walk in the light of the Lord. In other words, we're walking in disobedience and sin today. The day is going to come when all the nations of the world come streaming to Jerusalem to worship the God of Israel. In light of that, the foreign nations, the idol worshipers are going to turn away from their idols and worship the God of Israel. People of Israel, shouldn't you be worshipping the God of Israel? People of Israel, shouldn't you be turning away from idols?

People of Israel, if the nations are one day going to walk in God's Torah and God's teaching in his law, how much more should we? So the prophets are never just bringing abstract information about the future. The prophets are not just saying like a prediction of a game or which horse is going to win the race. That's not what prophecy is about. If it's speaking about the future, it's either to give us hope for tomorrow or to call us to repentance.

It has to do with me seeing this, me knowing this, makes me understand this, this helps me to live today. So when it comes to the type of books that Jonathan's written, some people say, oh, you're just looking for another subject to sell a book. Hey, I know him well enough to know that it's actually the last thing on his mind because he's he's walking in the fear of God and he's studying scripture and he's seeing things you can agree or disagree.

That's fine. But the patterns and things like that kind of jumping at him. And and from there, from from there, he sees something feels burned to get it out, gets it out.

When people ask you about The Harbinger. Remember, that was his first book. He was relatively unknown author, led a Messianic congregation in New Jersey and would speak at Messianic conferences and his his sessions will always be packed out, but you're talking to hundreds of people, a few thousand people. So otherwise unknown.

Correct. So so what happens is he writes this book and the first week it's out, it becomes a national bestseller. And there are other interesting things behind it. Prophetically, a stranger coming up to him, having a word from about this book he's going to write, this can be a bestseller and connecting with the publisher.

The whole thing's kind of wild. And when people would ask me about it, I'd say, listen, you may or may not agree with all his conclusions, but I have no doubt that God is speaking to America, that there's something that we need to hear. You may not agree with every interpretation of scripture, but there is a wake up call, there is a warning. And here's here's where it gets really intense, friends. And I can say this as someone that that has felt to warn America and to speak words of concern to the church over the decades. When the things you warn about come to pass. It is a very intense thing. It's not like you say, hey, you see, I predicted it.

No, it breaks your heart and it gives you an even greater sense of urgency. So when you look at the state of the world and you look at the state of the church, we're in an urgent moment in history, but God is not leaving us hanging out to dry. He is speaking to us still. What is the spirit saying to the church in America today?

We'll be right back. Are you experiencing fatigue, heart palpitations or tingling in your hands and feet? These may be signs that you are deficient in vitamin B12, which may increase your risk of serious cardiovascular conditions without you even knowing it. I'm Paul Burnett, a board certified doctor of holistic health and director of wellness services at Trivita.

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These statements are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, we are going to try to reconnect with Jonathan right now. Jonathan, can you hear me OK?

Hello. Hey, boy, that was so I don't know what happened. You can hear me. Yeah, I can hear you. Well, I clicked I heard a bell and then everything went silent again.

That's what happened last time. All right. Well, we've been in silence.

All right. We are we are here. And yeah, yeah, we are here. But apparently Jonathan couldn't hear me. Well, what do you all right.

So we have several options here. Number one, if you're Pentecostal or charismatic, if you're Pentecostal or charismatic, the devil, the devil tried to mess up this show. That's possibility. Number one, if you're Pentecostal or charismatic, if you're Baptist or Presbyterian, there is a technical failure somewhere. Something went wrong in the technical end.

And because we installed a brand new, much superior phone system a few weeks ago. But I had issues connecting with a guest, Greg Kochel. And then everything was fine after that. Well, it happened again. So probably there's something we need to figure out on our end.

My apologies to Jonathan and all those who tuned in just listening to Johnson. But hey, I'm here. And after all, the line of fire is my show, is it not? So here's what we're going to do. Here's what we're going to do. I am going to respond to questions that you post on YouTube or our Facebook page. So go ahead and post your questions there. Anything you want to ask me and Chris, our producer in Harrisburg, North Carolina, will grab some of those questions and post them for me. And as the show goes on, I'm going to weave in some random questions. But I want to paint a picture for you right now about America.

We'll get to the church in a moment. But I want to paint a picture about America. And by all means, order a copy of Jonathan's book, The Josiah Manifesto. I started reading it as soon as I got a copy. And it grabbed me. It grabbed my attention as well. So start reading it.

Get a copy of the Josiah Manifesto brand new book by Jonathan Kahn. OK, right now, there is talk about impeaching President Biden and a growing number of charges against him that he was involved in financially corrupt dealings very on a very, very serious level as vice president with his son Hunter, with Ukraine, China, wherever it is, and if the tables returned, if this was if this was the situation with with President Trump, you can be assured there'd be an impeachment over this. So that's the one. There is increasing talk and more and more evidence. So I'm not weighing in.

I don't know. I haven't I don't have access to the all the evidence, nor am I called to sift through this, nor am I a legal scholar. I'm just saying there is a mounting evidence, mounting evidence of of charges against current President Biden with the possibility of impeachment coming his way. Not only that, everyone ages differently. And at 80 years old, he seems to be in an old 80 to run again and then be in office, what it would be from now over five years from now.

That seems seems like a lot. OK. At present, there are four different indictments against President Trump, some of them quite damning. Some of them, if it wasn't president, you say for sure the man is going to go to jail. Now, I'm fully aware as I'm speaking, some people say, come on, man, it's a witch hunt against Joe Biden. Come on, man. It's a witch hunt against Donald Trump.

I understand all that. All I'm saying is this is going on. We don't even know if either candidate will be able to run for election or reelection in 2024. We don't even know that it is that much up in the air.

There are that many possible things that could happen. And there is a large segment of America that believes there is a witch hunt against President Trump that is very loyal to the former president. And if he was indicted or there was an attempt to say you cannot run there, there would be from tens of billions an absolute protest with the whole system saying this is rigged. And this confirms everything we felt about 2020. So you have a potentially explosive situation, more explosive than any election that I can remember in my lifetime, but maybe in our history.

Have we ever had a situation where both presidential candidates were under a shadow like this? Plus, on top of it had had the age that they are hanging over their heads as well with the deep divisions within the nation. So this is extraordinarily volatile. Think of just stats in America today. The number one, the number one cause of death for Americans between the ages of 18 and 45 today is fentanyl overdoses.

And on a regular basis, various arms of the government intercept enough fentanyl to overdose all of America several times over. This is just staggering. We have an ongoing epidemic of human trafficking.

It's extraordinary. You have people higher up all different levels of society. It's been like this for years, but you think of it child porn, which means, oh, God help us kids being kidnapped into the sold into this. And, you know, it's not just the adults watching or committing the crimes. But what how many children's lives have they destroyed? You go on and on with this half for years now. Half of all babies born to first time mothers in America are born out of wedlock. But I shall I go on and on and on? There's now evidence that thousands, thousands of teenagers, thousands of minors have had life altering surgery because of gender confusion.

Life altering surgery from top bottom, et cetera, along with chemical castration and so on. Now, it is obviously far and away the the most horrific example of medical malpractice in our nation's history. And you may be listening and say, yeah, but you didn't talk about this, you didn't talk about this, you didn't talk about this exactly. We are in a state of crisis. We are in a state of crisis. And much of the church is still complacent. Much of the church is still apathetic. Much of the church is still caught up with the things of this world. Much of the church is more concerned with the latest fashion or the latest house improvement or the latest sports victory or fantasy sport or whatever, which is getting ahead and doing better.

And they are concerned with the state of the church in the state of the world. So for good reason, many of our hearts are burning and saying, oh, God, awaken us. Oh, God, stir us.

Oh, God, light a fresh fire with in us. Friends, that's a major reason we're on the air. I love answering questions and we'll get to some soon. I love answering questions. I thoroughly enjoy it. I spend Wednesdays in Christ with nations. And only that day after teaching Monday, Tuesday and sometimes speaking Tuesday night, just Q&A so I can answer all the questions, spiritual life questions, biblical questions, theological questions, you name it.

I thoroughly enjoy doing it. But more than anything, I'm here to infuse you with faith and truth and courage. I'm I'm here to help light a fresh fire in your heart to say, if you will earnestly pursue him, you will find him. If you will determine to seek him more than you seek silver or gold or whatever else has your attention in this world, those who seek him with all their heart. Deuteronomy four twenty nine, Jeremiah twenty nine, thirteen, Hebrews eleven, six other verses. Matthew seven, seven through twelve, those who will seek him with all their heart or seven through eleven, those who will seek him earnestly and say, God, I am going to keep knocking. I am going to keep asking. Not because we wear him out, but because it is the determination of our heart, like Jacob saying to the messenger in Genesis thirty two. I will not let you go until you bless me. If you'll cry out for your lost loved ones, for your own life, for this nation, for the state of the church, for revival to spread. Friend, God will hear and God will answer. Those who come to him must believe that he is. And he's a rewarder of those who what? Diligently seek him. We'll be right back.

What is this? Hey, friends, Dr. Michael Brown here, do you remember when people thought I was crazy when I said it's not too late for America, that God can still do something in our country, that there is going to be a pushback, a gospel based moral and cultural revolution? And you remember when people thought that you were crazy because you felt the same way because you believe what I was saying and already felt it in your heart, well, friends, that pushback is here. The gospel based moral and cultural revolution we've been talking about for twenty five years is unfolding and we are right in the thick of it.

And the line of fire broadcast is divinely positioned for such a time as this. Friends, you would be so gratified and blessed as as as I hear if you can hear what I hear testimony after testimony is leaders, young people, old people, moms, dads, students, people from all backgrounds come up to me and say, Dr. Brown, you're providing a template for us. You're providing a blueprint for us. You're showing us how to do this, how to have hearts of compassion, backbones of steel. But friends, it's a joint effort.

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We've been emailing each other back and forth during the break. My profound apologies, but by all means, read to just manifest it. Obviously, you heard him on the interview.

You get charged and stirred and wow. And you want to read the book even more. But now, oh, you don't get to hear what he had to say.

So you got to read it. Let me just say one thing in heart to heart. Okay, heart to heart. You know me. I'm candid. I tell like it is. I have a filter, hopefully, of divine wisdom, of thinking before I speak and weighing words.

I do my best to do that. But otherwise, there's no duplicity here, right? There's no I'm going to tell you something different than who I am or what I believe. So I have a lot of people misjudge others.

I mean, you have to be careful. But John 724 says, don't judge by outward appearances. Jesus says it, but make a righteous judgment. When Jesus says don't judge, he's really showing us how to judge rightly. Don't judge hypocritically. Don't judge self righteously.

Don't judge superficially. Don't condemn. Make righteous judgment so that we can help other people.

That's the goal. And we can be God's representatives and ambassadors. So, for example, when I have a new book that comes out, we offer it signed, numbered copy will be doing that in just a few weeks from my next book, Seize the Moment, and we offer it like that. Or when I go out and speak, we say we've got some books available. I could sell. You could order a thousand of those books a day, right?

It could be the world's best seller ever. And you're ordering through our ministry. I'm out speaking, ordering to the radio show. I'm going to die from that. I'm going to die from never have that goes into the work of ministry and to getting more materials out to more people. That's where it goes.

It's simple. What if you sell a lot? Dr. Brown comes in through the ministry, comes in as I'm out speaking.

I don't receive a dime of it, right? An offering is received. I'm out preaching. We want to support Dr. Brown's ministry.

I don't see that it goes into ministry. So Jonathan and I have had a lot of opportunity to interact face to face. We've been conferences together.

We will interact via email, et cetera. And the one conversation has never come up. Not once, not a syllable. Zero has been a conversation about money ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. It's never come up. Not once.

Not from him to me, not from me to him ever. And it's not on our minds. That's not why we write. That's not why we speak. That's not why we do what we do. And, yeah, there are people that are in things for money.

I understand it. Get my book. Well, get Jonathan's book.

My book Playing with Holy Fire came out in twenty eighteen. I have a book about mercenary prophets. Excuse me, a chapter in the book about mercenary prophets.

This is ugly. This has been here as long as God's been warning in scripture from the greed of Balaam to the greed of the false prophets and false teachers in an apostolic age through church history. And Paul in First Timothy six warns about those who think godliness is a means to financial gain.

So there are people who did this. There are believers who think that Jesus died on the cross to make them rich. The carnal prosperity gospel.

There are there are preachers who give you the impression that the whole that you can judge spirituality by how much money someone has about a car they drive in. This is carnal stuff. This is this is ugly from this is from the pit. It's not from above.

It's from below that mentality. I was telling the students at CFNI that that there was a pastor, a Christian leader who had been tortured for his faith in China in prison, tortured and then ultimately released and had come to the states and he was at a big conference with these faith leaders and stuff and and he's his his suit was kind of a worn out suit, trashy suit he was wearing that much money. And an American pastor, as I was told the story, rebuked him for his lack of faith. Oh, oh, this guy was tortured for his faith in China. Most of us would have quit and caved in and denied Jesus by that. He was tortured for his faith. He was in prison for his faith and he never denied Jesus. And this American guy was carnal enough to judge him based on the suit that he was wearing.

Are you kidding me? You talk about a carnal flesh, the wrong judgment. So, yeah, there are people into this for money and there are there are there are people who are corrupt. But let me speak to everybody here.

Forget Jonathan Cahn, forget me. And of course, his books have sold mega copies beyond mine. Your average local pastor, right, most you go to churches, most of you support your church, you're asked to help support your congregation. Your average local pastor is overworked and underpaid. Those that get rich off the gospel.

That's the that's the small, small, small exception. Your average local pastor, if they stayed in the secular world and had to trade in the secular world, would be working less hours, would have less pressure on them and would be making more money. And when many people take positions, say, principal of a local Christian school, first grade teacher in a Christian school, they do so sacrificially. When the school says we're seeking to raise money, it's because they're just trying to pay the bills. It's it's that simple.

And and many people make a sacrifice to to teach at a Christian school or a setting like that. So there's no complaint here. I'm blessed. My needs are met. Thank God.

God's with our ministry. But please hear me. Don't be so foolish as to make just well. Jonathan Cahn writes another book because he wants to make more money.

You know, that probably projects you have a greedy heart yourself or maybe that's the way you would think. You know, my first popular book, I wrote 1985 Compassionate Father Consuming Father, Who is the God of the Old Testament? And that's more of a teaching book. We reissued it.

When you become a torchbearer, in fact, one of the free books that we give you up front, the reissued, rewritten new edition. But then the book that followed that, when I say popular meaning for it, just a wider church audience, it's like a preaching kind of style. What was the title? Came out in 1989.

What was the title? The End of the American Gospel Enterprise. And it was based the title was based on an anonymous quote.

To this day, I have not found out who said this, but the quote went like this. What began as a movement in Jerusalem became a philosophy in Greece, a monument in Rome, a culture in Europe and an enterprise in America. We know how to make it Christian and we know how to sell it.

That's the truth. And some of that message is infected other parts of the world. Christians in Nigeria were eager to get some of my materials out in an inexpensive English edition to get out to Nigerian Christians there because the church is growing in leaps and bounds.

But there's a lot of mixture there. And I tell some of my non charismatic friends, in fact, interacting with dear brother Francis Chan at the Send event in Michigan on Saturday. So I would just love for some of our cessationist brothers, some of our non charismatic brothers to to help help our charismatic brothers preach the word in a more expository way and get let's help each other, let's help each other, because we each have strengths the other doesn't have and we each have weaknesses the other doesn't have. But I just want to caution you as someone on the front lines, as someone in vocational ministry, as someone who's written forty five plus books, you don't don't judge outwardly and don't make assumptions, believe the best. And if if you need to have some discernment, you pray God will give it to you. But just just be careful not to project things on others because it's unhealthy for your own soul. That's the only reason I mention it's unhealthy for your own soul. OK, with that, let's just see here.

I'm going to answer a couple of YouTube questions. One called Narsense, I hope you don't believe that there's such a thing as this evil worldwide conspiratorial NAR. That's a fiction of the critics. There there are tens of millions, hundreds of millions of Christians who believe in apostolic prophetic ministry today, which is a good, valid biblical concept.

And certainly we're concentrating around the world. And there is an organization led by Peter Wagner that emphasized what he called the New Apostolic Reformation, but the so-called NAR thing. And I'm an alleged leader in NAR and all this. So this is a myth of the critics. I mean, I've interacted hour after hour with some of the leaders who would hold to that funeral respected.

That's a myth. So I hope that's not part of your screen name there. Your son-in-law, Ryan Bruce, claimed to visit hell, he said he saw people live on Earth in hell. How is this possible if they haven't told you? I don't know specifically what you're speaking about.

In other words, what that specific claim is. I can ask you about it next time I see him. Either you misunderstood him or just like in the Book of Revelation, John sees the future.

So the future. I don't know. I'll have to I'll have to ask. But I do know he's he's a wonderful man of God. He's a wonderful husband, wonderful father. I do know when you look at the evidence of his and our daughter makes two kids, that they're they're amazing young people, 22 years old and 19 years old.

Every parent would be would be proud of them as a Christian parent. And he's a dear, wonderful friend of mine and a real, genuine man of God that I know that I know. And if he has had these visionary experiences or dreams of of heavenly visits or visits to hell, they they shake him.

They impact him. There's nothing light about it. Dominion of God. Does Jonathan Cahn claim to be a prophet? I don't know, he's never gotten up and said, I'm a prophet. I believe he would say he's he's heard warnings from God and he's a watchman on the wall. But there are New Testament prophets.

I mean, here, think of this. Ephesians Chapter four, Ephesians Chapter four, beginning verse eight through 11, the so-called ascension gifts that when Jesus ascended on high. So this is after his death. Now it's after his resurrection, when he ascends on high, that he in turn gives gifts to the church, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. So this is not the twelve apostles.

This is after he rose. He gives apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. And these will be here until until when? Until we all come into maturity, the faith is no more division among us.

So we haven't gotten there yet. So I believe there through church history, there have been apostles, prophets. I believe John Wesley was an apostle. I believe Hudson Taylor was an apostle.

I haven't read extensively about, say, quote, St. Patrick from sixteen hundred years ago. He would have been an apostolic leader. And there have been prophetic voices in the church through history right until today. So if I ask someone, do you believe you're a pastor? Will we get scandalized if they say yes? Do you believe in evangelists? Will we be scandalized if they say yes? Do you believe you're a teacher? Will we be scandalized if they said yes? Why would we be scandalized if you believe a prophet?

Yes, it's just a gifting, a calling. But I've never heard Jonathan refer to himself in that way. That's to be candid. All right, let's see. Jordan, I'm not asking this as an attack, but why would we continue to listen to Jonathan when he's been so wrong about major predictions in the past?

Shouldn't he be held accountable? Hey, Jordan, I thank you for that question. And Jonathan would thank you as well. When I had him on before the four blood moons and all of that, he very, very clearly said or books about Jubilees. He said, I am not predicting this. I am not predicting this. I'm not predicting this. I'm looking at patterns and asking questions.

And he's put out whole videos explaining how the things he did prophesy did come to pass. So I would love to know, sir, what you're referring to. I'm not I'm not challenging you, but it's a 100 percent fair question. We should all be held accountable.

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These statements are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. Just being candid with you again. I just listened to the latest Trivita ad.

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Healthy diet, so like a small fry instead of a large fry and a single cheeseburger instead of a double cheeseburger and only ice cream three nights out of the week instead of seven. No, no, no, not what I mean. So when you order from Trivita, eight hundred seven seven one fifty five eighty four, so take advantage of this latest offer. When you call, you don't have to give a code or anything. They know you're calling from the show.

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She said, yep. So you get Nancy and me together in this, but it's free with any order with Trivita. So don't just it's a short read. Surely you can take the time to read ten thousand words. And that's why we wrote it afresh. In fact, the head of Trivita, Michael Ellison, said, could you and you and Nancy write something short digital that we can give away?

So we did it specifically for that purpose, because we really would love to see you thriving, healthy and strong. OK, you still post a question on YouTube, the YouTube chat, and I'll get to a few more hopefully before the show is out. But I want to come back to two previous questions. If someone claims that they had a vision of heaven or vision of hell or had an experience as if they were in hell or as if they were in heaven, there's nothing in the New Testament that tells me that that could not happen.

Nothing at all. On the other hand, I'm not going to base my life on what someone else says or what Jesus allegedly said to someone else. I'm going to base my life on what Jesus said in the word, what the Holy Spirit says to me. Now, maybe I know the person and they tell me about a very shaking experience they had or a very intense experience that I'm going to listen to that that's of interest to me, right?

That's of interest to me. But everything everything I do with my life, everything I do in the service of God, I need to be 100 percent sure based on the word of God and based on my own walk with the Lord. It may be confirmed by those close to me.

It may be confirmed by other circumstances, but everything has to flow out of what is written and my own experience with the Lord. So, for example, let's just say you're making me I'm praying about a major decision. Should I go to the left or should I go to the right?

Well, the Bible doesn't directly address it. The Bible does not directly say go to the left or go to the right. Let's say in prayer, I get gripped, overwhelming. And I hear the Spirit say, go to the left.

And I know the voice of God well enough and walk with him for almost 52 years now. And it's overwhelming and clear. And I know what I journal it.

I write it. OK, well, I've got my direction now. Isn't it amazing if someone texts me and says, Dr. Brown, I don't know what this means, but I just heard the Lord saying, go left.

Does that mean anything to you? You know, and then maybe sit down with Nancy. She goes, it is so clear you have to go to the left. It's like, OK, I've got further confirmation. But if someone came to me, I'm just going about my business, following the Lord, and someone said, Mike, the Lord gave me your word for you. Go left. OK, that's interesting.

OK, thank you. But unless I hear God myself, unless it's clearly written in the word, I'm not going to act on it. Many years ago, there was a Korean brother that came to see me with his wife and he was tormented. Someone had a dream and in a dream saw that he was called to be a pastor. So he began to study for the ministry, but never felt God's hand on his life, never felt confirmation, never felt grace to do what he was doing. And he was kind of tormented by it. I said, well, OK, your friend had the dream.

Put that aside. What did God speak to you? What did God lay on your heart? What burns in your heart? What do you feel called to do?

What makes you tick on it? And it had nothing to do with pastoring. I think you are now studying for ministry based on someone had a dream that you should do it.

Are you kidding me? What about your own walk with God? What about your own relationship with God? So I thought surely his wife would have common sense here. And and and she said to me, because I was teaching in a school training Korean Christians for ministry and he was in the school.

That's how we met. So when I asked his wife, I said, what do you think he should do? And I'm assuming I'm assuming she is going to say to me, well, he should do what's in his heart to do. He should do what he feels God wants him to do. He should do what comes naturally in his own walk with the Lord. You know, she said, Dr. Bun, you should tell him what to do.

No, it doesn't work like does it work like that. We have our own relationship with God. So I take things seriously when someone has an encounter with God and they're impacted by it. They can share it with me. I process that, but I'm not going to act on their experience.

I'm not going to act on their work. Let's say someone what, Mike, you're in a wrong place here. You need to repent. You need to get right with God. God's been shaking me at this. It's someone I've known for years.

They've got a good track record there. OK, I'm not going to cast them off. I'm going to say, Lord, is there something wrong?

Do I need to repent? And if I do, he he will bear witness to that. Or the word will say it plainly. So that's that's the first thing. The second thing, when it when it comes to accountability, when it comes to accountability, there is a massive lack of accountability in our charismatic Pentecostal circles, massive for many, many years. Local churches tend to be better with it. You know, someone brings a word.

It's not true. It doesn't come to pass. You sit the person down, you talk with them. You try to see, OK, you know, why did you get the flesh?

How did you get this wrong, et cetera? And two or three prophets are to speak. First Corinthians 14 and the others should wait carefully what's being said. So New Testament, everything's tested.

You don't stone the person, but everything's tested. First Thessalonians five. Don't despise prophecies.

Test all things. Hold to that which is good. Don't put out the Spirit's fire.

So. And in our charismatic Pentecostal circles, one, some prophecies are so nebulous. Who even knows what it means? And the Lord shall be that the blue rising and the red around the yellow tomorrow and the uprising shall come and following this the blessing.

And who even knows what it means? How does it what do I do with that? Seriously, what do I do with that? And then secondly, sometimes we just speak into the air. And the angel of the Lord will visit the city. And you're like, OK, show me what ten years later, five years later, what did anything actually happen? So sometimes we said dates and that'll happen. That's why I have a whole chapter in playing with holy fire. An unaccountable prophecy.

All right. So these are these are major, major issues that need correction. And we should have learned when we didn't have major national prophecies that Covid was coming. I mean, there are a few people that have shared some very real stories with me about warnings they had and how they preached it in their churches. And the warning seemed real. But national level, we were no one was warning us Covid was coming. And then a bunch of prophets is going to end by by April 15th or diminish to dissipate by April 15th, 2020.

Obviously that didn't happen. And rather than learning from the era now, all the failed prophecies Trump's going to make in six years, not be reelected in 2024. No, no, but have eight consecutive years in the White House. And Biden will never be inaugurated.

So we have a lot of egg on our face. And hopefully without quenching the spirit, without getting into fear, hopefully we'll make major corrections there. So Jonathan would be the first to say hold him accountable. But I believe when you actually look at things he has prophesied that would be coming, he's he's been quite accurate from my perspective.

Now, again, I haven't looked at everything, analyzed everything. But Jonathan would fully agree. Hold him accountable. If he did clearly prophesize something, there's a time frame on it. He would absolutely agree.

Hold him accountable. Scott, I'm seeing quite the rise in Catholicism across the board. How would approach speaking to a Catholic and explaining Silas Grittor to them and what the early church fathers had to say?

Scott, like everything, you have ebbs and flows. You have many leaving Catholicism because of all the sex scandals and the corruption. You have many others who are looking for a more formal church structure than they have in an independent church or looking for a greater emphasis on tradition and find beauty and power with the mother church.

So you have many people leaving people coming in. What I would do if talking to a Catholic friend is really see what they believe. What do you believe about Jesus? What do you believe about salvation?

What do you believe about how to get into right relationship with God? That's what I would emphasize. I wouldn't get into an argument about tradition versus Sola Scriptura. I wouldn't get into an argument about church fathers because we could prove one point from church fathers, but then they'll prove other points. Well, the church father said XYZ, and that's why we're Catholic. I instead would emphasize what really matters. I have Catholic brothers and sisters born again, love the Lord and look forward to spending eternity with them, and I know many Catholics who are dead in their sins, as I know Protestants who are dead in their sins.

So I would not get into that argument. Rather, I would say, okay, who is Jesus to you? Why did you die on the cross? How do we get right with God? How do we receive forgiveness of sins? How does God want us to walk out?

How can we be assured of eternal life? I would major on those things and see where we have commonality. And if we're not commonality there, then I would speak to that person like anyone else about the Gospel and start there. Hey, friends, thanks for flexing with us. Jonathan's been in touch with me. We hope to reschedule. Press in. Go after God. The hour is urgent, but God is on the move. Another program powered by the Truth Network.