Holy Sexuality

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. Friends, prepare to be encouraged, strengthened, challenged, and blessed. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity.

Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on The Line of Fire. And now here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Pastors, leaders, believers, brothers, sisters, fellow children of God, I've got some words of encouragement and strength for you today. You will be blessed. You will be infused with faith and truth and courage. And at the butt of the hour, I'm going to be joined with Christopher Yuan to talk about the Holy Sexuality Project.

This is not a broadcast you want to miss. Welcome, welcome, Michael Brown. Delighted to be with you. Now, I may, I may have time for a few calls if you'd like to call in now. 866-34-TRUTH, 866-348-7884. I may get to a few calls on random subjects before my guest comes on. Of course, tonight, the first of the Republican debates. We'll have more to say about that in the days ahead.

But let's start here. I want to be a voice of encouragement and strength to you. Not hype, not empty optimism, not false hope, but strength based on truth, based on reality. There's an amazing verse in Hebrews 12 talking about going through the discipline of the Lord.

And it says, so strengthen the weak knees, lift up the drooping hands, let that which is lame be pushed out of the way, make straight paths for your feet so that which is lame is not pushed out of the way, pushed out of joint, but rather healed. I want to encourage all of you who are discouraged, I want to encourage all of you who are wondering, are we going to see God really move? Is it too late? Is a breakthrough going to come?

Are things only going to get worse? I want to encourage you and I want to encourage you with reality, not just because I'm upbeat and positive and hyped, but with reality. Reality based on who God is and reality based on what he is currently doing. I want to put up a verse for those that are watching, put it up in Hebrew in English from Proverbs chapter 13. Proverbs chapter 13 verse 12, and it says this, tohelet m'mooshachah makhelelev. So hope that is drawn out, hope that is deferred makes the heart sick. But then what does it say? But the desire when it's coming, it is an eitzchaim tavavah.

The desire when it comes, when the answer comes, it is an eitzchaim, a tree of life. I have spoken to pastors around America and when I tell them what I am seeing with my own eyes, what God is doing, the churches that are seeing an explosion of people seeking God and coming to faith and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people being baptized, I mean real conversions and new people added to the body, prayer going up day and night, people seeking the face of God, believers turning from sin. Things are happening. They have been happening for some time, friends. But in many places they are not happening.

In many places it remains dry, it remains difficult. Many of you pastors, leaders, I'm so grateful to you when you send your words of appreciation and tell us what our ministry means to you. That warms my heart and blesses all of us on our team. Many of you are in difficult areas. One of my colleagues wrote to me from a major city in a major state and said, Mike, I don't see it anywhere where I'm ministering. I don't see it in any of our circles.

Is it really happening? And when I tell them yes, God is moving, not just some mega church that's got all the budget and the bells and whistles because that's not a move of God. You could have a giant building or no building. A move of God is beyond all of that. I'm talking about smaller congregations, larger congregations where God is moving, where things are happening. Earlier this year I said that the beginning of the next wave of revival has already hit America. I had said late last year that for several years now I've seen an outpouring coming not just in one place where everyone goes flocking, but I see thousands of holy fires all over America.

I've seen it in my mind's eye for years. And remember it was in the spring of 83 that God laid in my heart that I would serve in a revival that would touch the whole world. I had the privilege of doing that very thing, serving in the Browns revival from 1996 to 2000 where more than 3 million people cumulatively came through the doors, where the lines would form at 6 a.m. for the meeting to start at 7 a.m. for a strong repentance message to be preached every night. More than 300,000 different people responded to the altar call. So those are believers getting right with God.

Those are backsliders coming back. Those are first-time converts. I'm an eyewitness to it. I saw the fruit of that spreading out all around the world. To this day I meet people who come up to me enthusiastically. It's 25 years later, 27 years later, saying, Dr. Brown, you prayed for me at Browns. God touched me. Jesus touched me.

I've never been the same. And they're still on fire. They're still burning. People that were transformed in the revival that we had the privilege of teaching and training in our ministry school have been on the field, some of them over 25 years on the mission field. That's not because of emotionalism.

That's not hype. And some of them are working with the poorest of the poor. They're fighting human trafficking. They're taking in the poor and the needy. They're planting churches in obscure areas. They're risking their lives for the gospel.

They've been on the front lines for years and years and years. That word of promise God gave me, I have seen realized. And that same God began to speak to me in the late 90s.

I don't say these words lightly. And I heard this over and over in my time with God. As surely as there was a civil rights movement in America, there will be a gospel-based moral and cultural revolution. As surely as there was a civil rights movement in America, there will be a gospel-based moral and cultural revolution.

And by God's grace, I could get to be right in the thick of it. That's why we've been on the air five days a week since the summer of 2008. So we're talking over 15 years now, one or two hours every single day with joy, because we know that God is at work and things are turning. Early this year, I said, I'm sure of it, the beginning of the next wave of revival has hit America. It has hit in the early stages, but it has begun. And what was it, eight days after that, that the Spirit fell at Asbury out of the blue?

And within weeks, 50,000 people had converged in that little town of Wilmore, Kentucky of 6,000 people. It was a divine exclamation point of God getting people's attention. And shortly after that, the Jesus Revolution movie comes out, and we are watching pushback on every front. We are watching more and more people waking up and saying, enough is enough. The revolution of which we have spoken, not of hatred, not of rebellion, not one that despises authority, but one that honors authority, one that overcomes evil with good, one that overcomes hatred with love, one that overcomes lies with truth, one that overcomes the power and intimidation of the flesh with the life of the Spirit. It is unfolding in front of our eyes. This is the moment.

So for those in difficult, dry areas, be encouraged. If you are hungering and thirsting for Him, not for a big ministry, not for fame, not for notoriety, but hungering and thirsting for Him, to see Him work in your life, your family, your community, your church, He will come. Do not lose heart. Do not be discouraged. God is at work. What does it say in Isaiah 57, 15? That God, who inhabits eternity and sits on high in the holy place, also dwells with the one who is lowly and contrite and broken. I really feel that God wants me to encourage you.

Yes, I could just quote scripture that says this, but I believe that He wants me to bring these things to your attention. He is not deaf to your cries. He is not blind to your tears. He is not indifferent to the pain that you carry in your heart and the burden that you carry. He is near to the brokenhearted. Be encouraged.

The rain is falling. Be encouraged. The tide is turning. Oh, we're always going to have darkness and light before Jesus comes. We're always going to have several steps in one direction, steps in the other direction.

There's going to be a battle, but the tide is turning. It transcends politics. Do not get caught up in election fever or put your hope in the political system. Get involved. Be involved. By all means be informed and by all means vote and pray for God's will and God's best. But what He is doing transcends the political system.

We're talking about the kingdom of God. I want to say this last thing to you from the heart. I want to renew my pledge to you once again that by His grace I will not back down. I will not back up. I will not shut up. I will not shut down. I will not compromise the standards of God. I will not lower things out of convenience. I will not sell my soul so as to advance some earthly agenda. By God's grace, regardless of cost or consequence, by God's grace I'm going to stand and speak and honor Him and point attention to Jesus. And if it's costly, so be it. If it's difficult, so be it.

If it means physical attack, so be it. But I want to see Jesus glorified. I want to remind you of the words of Paul. We all know Philippians 1.21, For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. How about Philippians 1.20 which comes right before it?

Paul's in jail in Rome. He doesn't know if he's going to live or if he's going to die. And he says this, I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now, as always, Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For in me to live is Christ and to die is gain. That's what he said. That's our attitude. Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone.

If it dies, it bears much fruit. That's Jesus in John chapter 12 verse 24. When we came to Jesus, we died to our sin, we died to ourself, we died to our will, and we now live to do the will of God. We have been bought with a price, 1 Corinthians 6. We are not our own.

We belong to God. So friends, let's do it. Let's press in. Let's go after him. Let's seek his face.

Let's believe him. Let's remind ourselves of his faithfulness. Let's go back to his word and say, Lord, you promised. Let's go back to his word and say, Lord, may your name be hallowed in our nation. May your kingdom come.

Start the work in me. Those that have just been worn down and it happens to all of us and discouraged through the battle and maybe just really gone through some terrible personal losses, be encouraged. God has not forsaken you. God has not forgotten you. Yes, I could always say those words, but there are times and seasons when those words are especially important, and this is one of them.

The rain is falling. Be encouraged. The tide is turning.

Be encouraged. We are entering into years that many of us have prayed for and believed for and agonized for for decades. Let us seize this holy moment. Let us go after God like we haven't in years.

And let us stand back in awe and wonder as Jesus is exalted before this world. And thank you, every one of you who prays for me, who prays for our ministry, who stands with us and supports us. Thank you, every single one of you. We are in this together. Together we are making a difference. Amen.

We'll be right back. This is Michael Ellison, founder of TriVita Wellness. I'm always thrilled to offer a new product from TriVita that is science supported with equivalent doses per serving that follows the science.

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If you buy one at $19.99, you will get one free. Plus, you'll receive your free new digital book, A Healthy Church Starts with a Healthy You by Dr. Brown with your order. The message of Dr. Brown in this book, it rings clear in spiritual clarity. Dr. Michael Brown shares his own story of his journey to wellness along with his wife, Nancy, and they reveal 10 most important steps to a lasting life transformation. Whole body wellness is not a pipe dream.

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Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again, it's Dr. Michael Brown. Tomorrow is the early Jewish Thursday, and we'll get into some interesting Hebrew studies and open up some insights for you, but it's going to tie in with an amazing ninth anniversary. Yeah, nine years, by God's grace, of healthy eating only. My life transformed, and it was nine years ago tonight, so August 23rd of 2014, that I sat down with Nancy and said, okay, I got to make a change.

My plan's not working. And she basically said, all right, I take control of your diet from here on in. No food passes your lips without my permission. And boy, did she work hard to figure out ways to help me make a transition. So I may even share some of my journal entries from those early days.

I think you'd appreciate it. By the way, by the way, testimony, then I'm going to go to the phones, and then we've got a special guest, Christopher Yuan, coming on at the bottom of the hour to talk about the Holy Sexuality Project, I think something you're all going to be very interested in hearing. But I'm sitting with one of my key colleagues, coworkers or CFO. We've been friends for 40 years. He and his wife, Nancy and I, for 40 years and worked together for good parts of that time. And I just noticed his muscles, biceps, looking a little bigger.

I said, Gary, what's going on? He said the supplements are really working. So he determined not to change his workout and just to use the Triveda supplements, nitric oxide and myo health, that I use as well every day.

And he actually saw his muscles started to go, this is, it's hard to do when you're getting older. So this really works, and then I've never really run at all, you know, treadmill here and there, but I do intensive exercises of other kinds, rowing and CrossFit kind of workouts and that kind of thing. But I'm going to participate, God willing, in a special run. We'll be talking about it on the air.

It's going to be taking place in Texas in a couple of months. So I'm just trying to feel, you know, what it feels like. So I did like two and a half miles today, 5.3 miles an hour.

So just, it's slow, right, for runners. But just to see, it was delightful. It felt wonderful. But I'm so revitalized in the supplements helping there too, even with muscle recovery and all that. So if you haven't checked these out, remember 100% of your first order is going to extend the line of fire around the nation and more than a tithe of all subsequent orders. Call 800-771-5584. There's a money-back guarantee after a month, or if you don't like the stuff, just you donated the money to the ministry. That's great. But I think you really benefit.

If I didn't think so, I wouldn't bother telling you about it, no matter how much money was donated to our ministry. So 800-771-5584. Ask a few questions. Hey, I wonder about this, or I could use help with this. And the folks that would love to help you, go to TriVita.com and use the code BROWN25. Okay. Let us go to the phones here as we completely change gears.

We have an anonymous caller from Billings, Montana. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown.

I've listened to you for years, and I trust your leadership, your ministry. And I have a question. About three years ago, I experienced a divorce that kind of came out of nowhere. It wasn't something I wanted, but it happened nonetheless. It was a very sad season, and it was a, our marriage, we were married for just shy of 40 years. So to say that, you know, we were, she was my first love.

Anyway, my question is this. So when a divorce comes about out of nowhere, and the person contends, you know, their point of view or their narrative of the relationship, and, you know, you don't agree, and I basically just allowed it because I didn't contest the divorce, but I allowed it to just go through the process. I have contended through the whole thing that I did not want the divorce, and I am not interested in another relationship or marriage. And I simply told my ex-spouse that I would walk out my days with her in kindness because I believe that that's what God would have me do. And so in the last three years, I have sought counseling, had somebody help me walk through the heartbreak and just the ending of a 40-year marriage. And we had children and grandchildren, and I determined that I would not allow the ending of our relationship and our marriage. We are amicable. We can be in the same room.

We attend family events and gatherings, and we are mature about it, but it's still difficult. It's still hard. So my question is, how do you walk that out and how do you – I've contended to God that I would try and take the high road, and for the most part I have. So my question – I'll hang up and listen. My question is, in hindsight, I would not go back even if it were to present itself that way. And so I have, in hindsight, been able to see what was going on in our relationship and in the area of intimacy and so on and so forth.

Anyway, my question is, how do I walk this out? And what's going on today, it is just real head spinning. I'm just like, I'm ready for the Lord to come back. Got it, yeah. So anyway, I will hang up. Yeah, let me share some thoughts with you. Okay, God bless you, sir.

Okay. And obviously, you know, a terribly painful situation that I can't relate to. How can I wrap my head around that, right? If you've been happily married and Nancy and I are going on 48 years, how do you wrap your head around that? You could just think, oh my, what agony.

And of course, there are many questions I would ask if we had the time in a larger context. But let me just say this. You have an opportunity, having gone through tremendous loss, pain, heartache, to be closer to the Lord than you've ever been. God is a redeemer. God is a redeemer. That which Satan and circumstances and sin mean for evil, God can turn for good. So I would try to exploit this into greater intimacy with the Lord than I've ever known. I would seek to exploit this to say, Lord, it's just you and me. I'm not looking for another relationship. I just want you and I want you to make me into the finest man of God, the finest servant of God, the finest father, grandfather. I can possibly be the finest friend, colleague I can possibly be.

I would take advantage of the aloneness to spend more time with Him than you ever have. To worship Him, to put aside every distraction, to remove every bit of dead weight and unnecessary stuff from your life. And to say, I'm going to go after God.

And who knows what He has for me? It's very commonly out of the grief, out of the agony, out of the worst situations that we find the greatest grace. Out of the greatest crises, we find the greatest breakthroughs. I would say that you should not completely eliminate from your mind the possibility of reconciliation. And that through Godly counseling and both of you humbling yourselves, if your ex-wife was interested, God could bring that about. But right now, lean into the pain rather than running from it, lean into it as a way to get closer to God and determine, I'm just going to find out what would happen if I went after Him like I never went after Him before. And so I'm in prayer and worship and the Word and doing good. I'm going to find out what God could do in my life while I have breath and while it's just the Lord and me. And you may just see the most amazing blessed days of your life still ahead. May it be so.

Hey friends, Dr. Michael Brown here. Do you remember when people thought I was crazy when I said it's not too late for America, that God can still do something in our country, that there is going to be a pushback, a gospel-based moral and cultural revolution? And do you remember when people thought that you were crazy because you felt the same way, because you believed what I was saying and already felt it in your heart? Well friends, that pushback is here. The gospel-based moral and cultural revolution we've been talking about for 25 years is unfolding. And we are right in the thick of it.

And the line of fire broadcast is divinely positioned for such a time as this. Friends, you would be so gratified and blessed as I hear, if you could hear what I hear, testimony after testimony as leaders, young people, old people, moms, dads, students, people from all backgrounds come up to me and say, Dr. Brown, you're providing a template for us. You're providing a blueprint for us. You're showing us how to do this, how to have hearts of compassion, backbones of steel. But friends, it's a joint effort.

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AskDrBrown.org. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the Line of Fire. Thanks so much for joining us, Michael Brown. Always delighted to be with you.

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Here are the latest resources we have available. This way we can stay in regular contact with you. A few years back, I read an amazing book, Out of a Far Country, and it was a powerful story of Christopher Yuan coming out of homosexual sin, coming out of heavy drug use, and his mother praying for him. And he's writing his chapter of his journey and then her chapter of how she's praying. I subsequently got to meet Chris and his mom, have a meal together with them.

And he has now put together a video series, The Holy Sexuality Project. As soon as he reached out to me, I said, by all means, we've got to talk about this on the air. So, Chris, great to talk to you again. Thanks for joining us on The Line of Fire.

Hey, Dr. Brown. Great to be on with you. Great to hear your voice.

Yes, same here. So, before we talk about The Holy Sexuality Project, just tell us the highlights of how you came to the Lord and what we can learn from what God did in your life. Yeah, I wasn't raised in a Christian home. I wrestled with my sexuality from a young age. I came out of the closet, as I would have said back then, in my early 20s. And then I was living in Chicago at that time, but then moved to Louisville, Kentucky, to pursue my doctorate in dentistry.

It was there that I came out of Louisville. After a year, I broke the news to my parents. And amazingly, God used that crisis to bring my mother to faith. And then my father did as well.

And that's what my mother and I talked about in our memoir, Out of a Far Country. I went the total opposite direction. Unfortunately, I began experimenting with drugs. I started selling drugs. I eventually was expelled from dental school. And then I moved.

And this is just three months before receiving my doctorate. I moved to Atlanta, and I became not just a dealer, but a supplier. And this whole time, my parents didn't know that I was doing drugs or selling drugs, but they knew my biggest need was to know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. They tried to reach out to me. They came to visit me one time. I kicked them out. My dad gave me his Bible.

I threw in the trash can. And they just knew I was hopeless. But they committed not to focus upon hopelessness, but upon the promises of God. And along with over a hundred prayer warriors, they cried out to God for me. My mom, she fasted every Monday for seven years.

Once fasted 39 days on my behalf. So eventually I was arrested, found myself in jail. And I found a Bible in the trash can of all things, began reading it. And the Holy Spirit began to convict me that I had put my identity in the wrong thing. A chaplain even gave me a book.

I was not open about my sexuality in prison. Opened up with a chaplain. He gave me a book.

This is so amazing. He gave me a book that was affirming so-called, in essence, rejecting biblical sexuality. And everything inside of me wanted to agree with that book. But I know now it was the power of the Holy Spirit that convicted me that those assertions distorted God and his word, gave it back to the chaplain, turned to the Bible alone. This is the beginning of this journey of God renewing my heart, my mind.

And I realized that I put my identity in the wrong thing. I realized that God was calling me to holiness. Not just focusing on just sanctifying my sexuality, but sanctification is about the whole person.

And so this is kind of where I came up with this idea. Not heterosexuality, because it doesn't really go far enough, but holy sexuality. And I talked about that in my memoir. And then my book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, which of course you're familiar with.

It was named 2020 Book of the Year for Social Issues by Outreach magazine. And this is a book that I adapted, that I wrote for adults and college students into this video series, The Holy Sexuality Project. All right, so who is this video series geared towards and what do you seek to accomplish with The Holy Sexuality Project?

Yeah, this video series, older ones that focus upon abstinence, purity, I think those are very important. But then we kind of stop there, which ends up being, we are teaching our kids what is God's no. We're not really filling them, giving them a nice, broad understanding of God's yes. We need to teach both God's yes and God's no. Because we can't just build a Christian life on God's no. And I think some of the newer ones are very loving and compassionate, but end up being grace at the expense of truth.

Say things like you got to use their pronouns, you got to just go to the gay wedding, basically grace at the expense of truth, accommodate at everything, just maintain the relationship. But our goal is not simply maintain the relationship, that's a good thing. But our goal is to point people to the Savior who is Jesus Christ, the only one that can completely transform anyone. So that's the ultimate goal, we want to be full of grace and full of truth. So this video series is actually for parents and their teens, for grandparents and their grandkids who are preteens and teens.

So instead of being kind of like another program in church, in youth group or in the classroom, this is a resource for the living room, for the dining room. Because we believe that God is really clear, Deuteronomy 6, where it says, parents, teach your children diligently. And I'm going to tell you, there's someone that's very, very willing to teach our kids diligently, unbiblical sexuality, and that's the world, and we need to change that. And not only does Deuteronomy 6 say that, it says, teach this to your son, your son's sons. That's so important. It's grandparents who have that God-given responsibility.

But this is what's going on today, Michael. We are forfeiting that responsibility, not only to the world, I mean that's kind of heinous as it is. We have this view that I'm going to drop my kids off at youth group, I'm going to dump them off at church or Christian school, and they're going to do my job as a parent or the grandparent to diligently teach our kids. Now, of course, are the Christian schools and youth groups, are they going to disciple our kids?

Yes. But honestly, that should just be secondary, not primary, especially on issues of sexuality. So anyway, all that to say that the audience, it's for families. That's why I say it's one of the first of its kind that is actually putting the primary place on home discipleship. And that's the goal, to help our kids to understand, embrace, and celebrate biblical sexuality at home.

All right, now we're going to dive in much more, but I know many of you listen as you're driving in your car, you grab a few minutes of the broadcast. So before we go any further, Chris, tell us where folks can find out about this, and then we're going to dive back into it in more depth. Where do they go to find out about the Holy Sexuality Project? Yeah, the Holy Sexuality Project, it's an online digital series where they can view it at holysexuality.com. So it's really simple to remember, holysexuality.com.

You can go there, and you can find more information. You could kind of create a free account, and you could get a free lesson. There's 12 lessons.

You'll be able to view Lesson 2. And then, now, so people know, this is actually a $1.2 million project. You're familiar with animation. They charge animation by the second, 24 frames per second. Oh yeah, trust me, we have these five-minute videos.

We've put out 11 so far, we've put out a lot more, but it's too expensive. Yeah, yeah, I did a few five-minute, and it was like $5,000 to $10,000, and then I realized that, actually, they were using kind of some stock animation and illustration. So what we used was not stock, and it was all custom. So it's the custom illustration, custom animation, custom soundscape. And we have artists that actually created things for the Bible Project, which is all custom. So it's very, very high quality.

You can tell right away. Even our studio that we used, we found out later that normally they charge $150,000 per day. Obviously, we did not pay that amount. But it's very high quality because our teens can spot something a little bit cheesy, a little bit, you know, that stock. And so we wanted to give the Lord our best and keep the kids engaged.

But a project like this, a two-year license, would normally cost maybe $300 to $500 because it's 36 videos, four-and-a-half hours of content, 270 minutes of content. But honestly, actually, our donors are so – we know the urgency, and we want every family to have one, every parent to have one. So we're actually only charging $20 for right now. Are you serious? Super accessible.

Yeah, it's only $20. I know it's almost ridiculous. Oh, gosh.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I told some of them, they said, that's unbelievable. All right, so listen, everybody, everybody, let me just take the bully pulpit here for a second. Everybody, go to holysexuality.com. And everybody, tell your everybody, post this on social media, tell your friends, text it out, holysexuality.com. Okay, so get the free account, watch the video, but obviously once you watch, you're going to want to get into more of it.

We're just playing some of it on our screen here for those watching. And then sign up. I'm going to do it just so I can have it and have the privilege of putting $20 into this, holysexuality.com.

After the break, I've got some questions to ask you, but I want to say this quickly. I have a book coming out later this year about how to fuel the fires of revival, which is followed by a book that I just finished to come out middle of next year on how to ignite a cultural awakening. And I have a lot about what we have to do in ministry to children and get in this teach them diligently principle from Deuteronomy 6 and say, look, your kids are immersed in TikTok and social media.

Your kids are immersed often in the schools and a worldly culture. We have to immerse them in gospel truth. So I'm going to add the Holy Sexuality Project into one of the endnotes where I'm talking about hero resources, especially for homeschoolers. So moms, dads, everybody, grandparents, go to holysexuality.com, sign up. Don't even get the free account. Just spend the $20 and get the 270 minutes of content. Tell all your friends, this could be a real game changer.

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Here again, it's Dr. Michael Brown. All right, we've got a few more minutes with Christopher Yuan. All right, I'm in.

I just placed my order during the break. What do you think of that? It's that easy, folks. Holysexuality.com. All right, Chris, you came out of a sinful lifestyle, promiscuous sex, homosexual practice, drugs.

Everybody's in different places in their lives and we're reaching out to people. There's no such thing as the heterosexual community, the gay community. We understand things are multifaceted, but as the church is reaching out to many who identify as gay, what would you say is one of the most common mistakes that we make? You know, I think for Christians who hold to gospel truth, who have a high view of scripture and understand bisexuality, you know, that it's sex is for man and woman, male and female. I think the one thing that we don't fully understand is this big error from the world and the error is how the world has completely conflated sexuality to be who we are. So not just simply, not just what I feel or what I desire. And these are, you know, yeah, many, many situations. It's unchosen.

It can be enduring. I don't believe that it's unchangeable, but it can be difficult to change, but not impossible. But the mistake is that we only see it, I mean, correctly, we see it as desire, but the world no longer does. They see it as who they are, which is why that, you know, when we talk to our loved ones who identify as gay or lesbian or transgender, et cetera, when we talk about that this is sin, they don't hear you say that this is sinful behavior. You know, Michael, if you will go back in time and you have met me before I knew Christ and to tell me this is sin, I would not hear you say, oh, what I'm doing is sin. I hear you say that my whole person from head to toe is reprehensible to you and to God. You see, before in Christ, I couldn't hate my sin without hating myself.

Now that I know Jesus, that I have the mind of Christ, I am able to hate my sin without hating myself. Thus, I think this is almost a litmus test today for some resources that are out there that even claim, you know, to be Christian sexuality. But if they get this most, most important aspect wrong and are kind of thinking that it's almost trivial or even encouraging Christians to identify as gay, then we are getting our person wrong. We are getting an essential aspect wrong.

We shouldn't, I mean, scripture is so clear. We are born again. We are new creations. The old has gone, the new has come.

Why in the world would anyone try to resuscitate their dead self? And make that part of your identity. I'm a lustful Christian. I'm an adulterous Christian. I'm a gambling Christian.

I'm a gossiping Christian. Right. So I understand some people, look, we honor those who say, I still struggle with same sex attraction, but I'm honoring the Lord. I'm saying no to it. And if it means being celibate, I'm celibate.

That's extraordinary. We honor that. And some want to be humble and reach out to others and make that part of their identity. I'm a gay Christian, but it is not, it is not part of your identity. Chris, you've laid that out so plainly.

In fact, it ties in very first lesson. You say this, the ultimate goal when it comes to sexuality is to glorify God by denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Jesus. Why is that where it all starts? Well, I think when we make so it's, it's just part of our sin nature. We want to make everything about me.

You know, it's, it's about what I want, what I desire, what I need. And sometimes Christianity can just feed into that. We need to be very, very careful to not make our faith, our life about me. It must really be about Christ in all things, especially sexuality. So when it comes to sexuality, it's not what I want, what I desire, but what does God desire?

How do I deny myself, take up my cross and follow him? Because it really isn't about a life of ease. It isn't about, um, you know, happiness even, uh, it is about Christ, Christ in all through all. And it, and it's actually by doing that, that's when we find joy. We, when we say no to self, we say yes to Christ. And that has given me and countless others so much joy that isn't dependent upon whether I get what I want. So I really wanted to make that at the very, very beginning of the lesson and throughout.

As a matter of fact, I end every single lesson with this. Now go and follow Jesus. And they know what follow Jesus means.

Deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow him. It's about discipleship. And so I wanted this course, even though we're touching on sexuality to not be one that it's that can easily focus upon human effort. Don't do this or don't do that. And you need to, you know, do this or do that.

It really is a crystal, crystal centric course that lifts up God, uh, Christ, uh, the Holy Spirit, um, who we are as sinners, that we need to be sanctified, that that needs to be the main focus above all else. And there's so much gender confusion today. I just saw an article quoting Martina Navratilova, so tennis, great and outspoken lesbian. This is just so wrong when we're talking thousands of children into thinking that they're transgender. So she's speaking out against trans identity.

You have other gay activists speaking out against this, the activism. Do you get into this? We just got a few minutes, but do you get into the gender confusion issues on your series?

I do. So when my book came out, um, it was right before COVID. I touched on gender, but just after COVID, I mean, it just went on steroids. So I couldn't do a course without addressing it. So I added three lessons that weren't in my book. Uh, one lesson eight, like, what's the big deal?

You hear that a lot from teens, right? Why is God so concerned? Lesson nine, I have a talk, um, uh, kind of dispelling myths. These are things also you are really good at, Michael. Uh, you know, just things like David and Jonathan, uh, you know, Jesus' so-called silence, et cetera. And then lesson 10 is on gender and helping people to see, uh, how the world has split apart sex and now the so-called new so-called category of gender.

Uh, but then it sets gender in the image of God, how actually this all points to this essential category of the image of God, Genesis 1 verse 27. So definitely I touch on this and, and I also want to say something super excited, even though this course, yes, $20, it's almost ridiculous how, how accessible it is. But even the $20, it is 100% going to the next huge project we're working on, which is the Holy Sexuality Project for Children. We're working on something like a big project like this for children. Very, very excited about that as well. Awesome.

So friends, holysexuality.com. You can also gift it for a friend. So get a few of them. Get four or five of them for friends of yours, parents, kids, grandparents with grandkids. And again, we're talking especially preteens and teens.

This is designed for the next project. We'll target younger kids. Hey, in one minute, what do you say that's so important about singleness and marriage?

Give us just a little tidbit. Well, I think the church often, um, sort of sees singleness as second best, but we need to remember Jesus was second best. Now, how do we do that well without denigrating marriage? Well, we need to see that in Christ, whether you're single, whether you're married, whether, and I'm not talking about saying you want to be single for life. I don't think that actually is biblical. That's more of a kind of a Roman Catholic kind of idea that isn't grounded in scripture, but tradition. I'm just talking about if you find yourself single, Jesus Christ is your Lord.

You can serve him fully and be whole in Christ. Marriage, even marriage. Our goal isn't just to have kind of companionship. The goal of marriage, as Paul says in Ephesians 5, it's a mystery that points to the eschatological reality of the end times of Christ in the church. So actually, all earthly marriages should point to that beautiful reality. So those are so helpful for young adults, for teenagers to understand God's yes in both singleness and marriage. Awesome. Well, you did an amazing job of summarizing it.

So friends, holysexuality.com, of course, if your readers get the book, but this is to sit, there are parents guides that come with this as well, so you go through those, you sit down with your kids, your grandkids, watch these together, immerse together. You know the old saying, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so let this be that holy ounce of prevention. Christopher, thanks for all you're doing. Continue to stand strong.

We need you on the front lines, buddy. Thank you so much, Dr. Michael. God bless. God bless. God bless you. All right. What an enjoyable and edifying interview.

So by all means, check that out, holysexuality.com. Don't forget, as I mentioned earlier, we have thousands of hours of resources waiting for you. I pour myself out day and night with joy, writing and preparing materials, getting ready for radio and traveling to speak, so we can pour into you because you are on the front lines where you live, in the workplace, in the home, in the school, and we want to stand together because the time is now. God is at work. The Spirit is moving. The tide is turning. Be encouraged. Jesus is Lord. Together we are making a difference, a big difference. Be encouraged. Another program powered by the Truth Network.