From the Front Lines of the Culture Wars

The following program is recorded content created by Truth Network. The following program is recorded content created by Truth Network.

The following program is recorded content created by Truth Network or have you liked me or dislike me. I'm not trying to get more clicks and listens and better ratings and more donations. My goal is to honor the Lord. My goal is to speak the truth in love. My goal is to be sensitive to what is important to the heart and mind of the Lord that I served who bought me with a price to whom I belong and to whom I'll give account. And if you are a fellow follower of Jesus, that should be your heart as well. And if you don't believe in the God I believe in, if you think my views are very wrong, well obviously if you reject the authority of Scripture or you reject my understanding of Scripture, of course you're going to reject what I'm saying. Who am I, right? I'm only seeking to echo what I understand is written in God's Word.

That's what I'm sharing with you. So this is not a matter of, well I have an opinion and I want you to esteem my opinion. As my wife once said in a different context, who cares about your opinion?

The context of course if you haven't heard the story is a couple's over at our house and one of them said to us, right, they're having dinner and one of them said, so Dr. Brown has God spoken anything to you about this situation? And I said, no, but I'll give you my opinion. To which she rightly said, who cares about your opinion? They weren't asking that, right? So this is not a matter of my preference, here's what I like, here's what I don't like, I like gay people, I don't like gay people, I like this.

No, no, that's not the issue. The issue is what is God's will, what does God say, what has He spoken clearly, what has He revealed? So there is a clip that, actually it's John Cooper, our friend from Skillet sent me, asking have I seen this yet? And it is from Rachel Gilson who herself comes out of same-sex relationships and same-sex practice and she is speaking at the annual Southern Baptist Convention meeting for pastors' wives, all right? And I want to read a quote to you from something that Rachel says in her book, Born Again This Way, coming out, coming to faith, and what comes next. And I just want to read a quote from Rachel so you you'll know where she's coming from, all right? Because I'm going to take issue with some things that she said. She says this, it's not enough to say, quote, your life, your choice, my life, my choice, the ministry that same-sex attracted Christians have to the church in the world must go beyond this individual individualistic stance. The costliness of our obedience to God's word makes demands on others.

They can and should find it unsettling, all right? So she recognizes that God's word makes demands on you and if you're in a same-sex relationship, you're sleeping with someone you're of the same sex, whether you're, quote, married to that person or not, that that is sinful in God's sight. And Rachel would say that if God doesn't change your desires, if you don't become heterosexual, then you simply have to be celibate. So she's laid that out. But I want you to hear what she has to say in this clip. I'm going to let the whole thing play through.

It's about three minutes and 40 seconds so you can hear things in fair context. I'm not attacking Rachel as a person. I appreciate that she is saying that you cannot follow Jesus and be in an active same-sex relationship at the same time fully pleasing to him and under his lordship. I understand that's her position but listen to what she has to say.

I don't know your parents. I'm not going to speak too particularly into it, right? But as we think about the question of people in a same-sex marriage who maybe come to know the Lord, this is a real situation that I've encountered in my life. I met a woman recently in St. Louis who was actually in this, she was in a marriage to a woman and was processing what to do because she had come to the Lord but her wife hadn't. I need to recognize in this situation, right, that these are some very tender things. And if we just walk around being like, I've got some great ideas, like you don't know anything, you don't know anything about what this relationship has been like, the joys that it's provided, the heaviness is provided, like we never approach these situations with swagger. If someone is a trust, if we've got a relationship where they're trusting us to speak in and trusting us to draw near, we want to listen really carefully. Like with any person, discipleship is going to be a process. And so I'd say if someone in a same-sex marriage comes to know the Lord, it's not like, okay, what we got to deal with first is your same-sex marriage. Like our discipleship is our whole person. When we come to Christ, there are a lot of things that need attention, that need forgiveness, that need healing, that need adjusting. But I do hope that over the course of discipleship for someone in that position, they're going to have a chance to examine what the Bible says about sexuality, and they're going to have a trustworthy person to walk through with them, what that means for their life. When you're a child, especially we're in that weird stage where you're like for the first time an adult child relating to adult parents, that's weird, right?

It's just weird. You used to be five and they were old and now you're like old but not as old. You just don't, if you're a parent relating to someone in that situation, you've already got that strange dynamic on top of something that is theologically and emotionally really heavy. So I would say as their son, you love them and help them in whatever way, right?

You love them as you try to follow the Lord, as they try to follow the Lord to come around the scriptures together and figure out what's going on. I do think that it's pretty normal for someone who comes to Christ to see, oh, this isn't the way God designed to use my sexuality. They don't have to negate all the good things that they've experienced with the person that they've been in a relationship with to recognize that God says something else about sexuality.

They might end up making a very big cost. I mean, I've known some people who decide to stay in that relationship legally but to live celibately, to break off having sex. That has happened with some couples who both come to Christ. I've known some couples where one person came to Christ and decided that in order to honor the Lord, he needed to be celibate and his partner decided, his husband decided to leave him.

I mean, Paul talks about this reality in 1 Corinthians 7. Sometimes if a spouse comes to know the Lord, the other spouse can't abide it and they leave and then that person is, you know, that person is free. But sometimes it will mean, yes, sometimes it will mean getting a divorce. God hates divorce.

He does. It breaks that image of marriage just as surely as anything else. What's interesting is though God hates it, it is still sometimes allowed in the context of a broken world. Okay, let me first say where I agree with Rachel.

Let me first say that there are things she's saying that are important beginning with this. That same sex couples can love each other just as heterosexual couples can love each other. Do I believe it's exactly the same? No, I don't simply because there is a unique union between male and female that male plus male or female plus female cannot have. At the same time, I don't doubt for a split second that there are same-sex couples that love each other deeply.

I don't doubt for a same second that there are same-sex couples who go through the same highs and lows that heterosexuals go through, the same joys, the same disappointments. So you're still dealing with human beings and if both people come to faith, it's going to be a traumatic thing, right? You know, you have to separate now.

You cannot be together any longer. We should be sensitive to that. We shouldn't just like go, yep, you've got to break it up because it's sin in God's sight. No, it's a painful process for them as much as God hates that same-sex union and it is contrary to His will and is absolutely not what He intended for those individuals. They're still human beings with feelings, with emotions. Let's say one of them gets saved and the other doesn't get saved. Now that makes it even more challenging because the other ones, don't leave, don't go, come on, God can certainly accept us the way we are, can make it even more challenging.

So we should be sensitive to that. I absolutely agree with her there, number one. Number two, I agree with her that you don't necessarily immediately go there the moment someone is born again, meaning that you immediately say, well of course you have to leave your spouse, I hope you realize that, and that the marriage is not valid in God's sight. Did you get instantly sanctified? Did you instantly know everything you had to do to get right with God? After God convicted me for weeks and I surrendered to Him and confessed Jesus as Lord fully over my life, as best as I understood it, my point of surrender, December 17th of 1971, was to say to the Lord, I will never put a needle in my arm again, all right? So by God's grace I was instantly set free, but two days later I got high, I smoked hash, and then I realized, okay I shouldn't do this. Well the fact is I was genuinely saved when I said to the Lord I'll never put a needle in my arm again, not because I said I'm not going to do it, but that was my surrender to the Lord.

That's when I knew, okay Lord, I truly want you to be the Lord of my life. So I absolutely know I was saved and when I was getting high I was still saved two days later. I was still saved, but God convicted me of that and I never got high after that. It was some weeks after that that He convicted me of using profanity.

I was still saved when I was using profanity. You may be living with your girlfriend, your guy, you're living with your girlfriend, you get born again, and maybe you've been a heavy drinker and maybe you've been involved in stealing, and the first thing you realize I can't steal anymore. And then a week later you realize I can't drink anymore.

Then a week later you realize I can't sleep with my girlfriend anymore. There may be a process. So it's not to deal with a same-sex relationship the same as any other sin, the same as any other sin. Now if I was preaching and I knew there were people that were there thinking it was fine to be in same-sex relationships or fine to be fornicating out of wedlock or fine to be doing some other things, I might feel prompted by the Lord to lay it out plainly, just to tell someone. I just want to make this as plain as I can.

I just want to make this as clear as I can. You cannot follow Jesus and be in the same-sex relationship. You cannot follow Jesus and be sleeping with your girlfriend. If you want to follow Jesus you're going to have to leave those things behind. That may come up and the Lord may lay it on your heart to address things right out of the gate. But in many cases we have to get someone established in Jesus first. We have to get them to really know the Lord. And if they come to really know the Lord then of course they will leave those other things behind.

So there are things Rachel's saying there that have truth to them that I agree with but other things why they're going to be misleading and damaging to many. I'm Paul Burnett, a board certified doctor of holistic health. Over the years I have helped countless people increase and maintain their natural energy production with Alfred Libby's Slow Dissolve Super B12 sold only by Trivita. I have never met anyone deficient in caffeine or sugar but I have met many people deficient in energy supporting vitamin B12. Vitamin B12 is one of the eight B vitamins and is an essential nutrient meaning the body cannot make B12 on its own. You see unlike other oral B12 supplements Alfred Libby's Slow Dissolve Super B12 is fast acting because the formula is scientifically developed to dissolve under the tongue bypassing the digestive process making it immediately available for use in the body. Alfred Libby's Slow Dissolve Super B12 is also formulated with other natural energy supporting ingredients such as folate, ginseng root and other natural ingredients. Not only are the ingredients beneficial for energy but they also support healthy cognition, mood, nerve function and natural hemoglobin production. You deserve to live with greater energy and mental clarity and now like millions of others you can with Alfred Libby's Slow Dissolve Super B12 sold only by your wellness partner Trivita. To place your order for products to support your wellness goals call 1-800-771-5584 or online at trivita.com as a Trivita introductory offer.

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This is how we rise up. It's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks again to our sponsor Trivita for your generous donation from every single order that comes in to help us spread the line of fire around America and around the world. Michael Brown coming your way from Israel this time from Jerusalem. I'm not taking calls. I'm not interacting with a live audience today because I'm interacting with some audio clips that I think you'll find really interesting. The last segment I played a clip from Rachel Gilson herself coming out of same-sex relationships and practice and saying listen you have to follow Jesus no matter what and be obedient and take up the cross and if that means lifelong celibacy so be it Jesus is enough for you. This is what she said elsewhere. In this clip she's speaking to leaders at the annual Southern Baptist Convention pastors wives. She's made the statement that God hates divorce and even if it's a same-sex couple God hates that divorce because he hates divorce right and that she gives examples of same-sex couples she knows that were quote married and that they agreed okay we can't have sex anymore if we're going to follow Jesus or one of them said look I can't be in a sexual relationship with you if we're going to follow Jesus but so we'll be celibate but we're still quote married and she gives those as as as potential outcomes. Let me say this first it is a hundred percent clear to me based on scripture that under no circumstances will God ever bless a same-sex union and under no circumstances will it ever be God's will for two men or two women to be together sexually or romantically.

Under no circumstances I want to say this as clearly as I can. At the same time I want to recognize how incredibly difficult it could be for someone to say look I've been in this relationship we love each other our lives are completely intertwined now to follow Jesus I have to leave that and and if he doesn't change my desires into heterosexual and I can never marry have this companionship again that's a serious cross to bear. Now I know there are people who struggle with same-sex attraction and say look Jesus requires everything from all of us and Jesus is enough for all of us. I applaud them for saying that and I say amen to that it's true but as someone who's been married 47 plus years madly in love with my wonderful wife Nancy as as someone who can't imagine what life would have been like without my wife and without our children and grandchildren and and being single I'm not saying it's a light thing I'm not saying well you know hey did you judge you just gotta obey the Lord yes say it but say it with tears say it with recognition of the burden even though you know Jesus is enough and even though like I know many people who were formerly homosexual who are not any longer who are in in happy heterosexual marriages and have been for many years and it's not a fake it's real I know the people I know their families in different cases but I still understand that it can be very challenging and I do not want to be insensitive to that for a single moment and especially let's say you're you're 17 years old and you struggle with same-sex attraction for for five six years and now you understand that Jesus is Lord and you have to follow him and you're thinking does that mean I'm gonna be single the rest of my life does that mean I could never marry I can tell you this you live one day at a time and God will be more than enough for you and if if marriage is something essential in your life and something that he wants for you he's able to change your very nature he can do that he's done it for many others and I also have friends that are heterosexual that would love to be married and have just never met the right person or the person they thought was right for them didn't agree and they're in their 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s and they love the Lord and they've had blessed single lives so you can't have a blessed single life but I don't say that lightly because I understand the challenges it can be for many all right back to what Rachel Gilson said so I the idea that okay we realize we can't have sex but we're still legally quote married so we're going to stay married no it's not valid in God's sight it's not a marriage in God's sight now I don't know what you have to do legally if just whatever no fault reasons or or religious reasons or you certainly have valid reasons for quote quote divorce because you're legally married in in the side of the nation so you do have to divorce but but you have to do that to be to be holy right in God's sight the idea that you can stop having sex again I appreciate that I appreciate that the self-control that requires but to now say okay we're going to still live together into the same roof as a couple and still be quote married no you can't do that and be fully obedient to the Lord and the marriage is not something God recognizes even if the state does you say well what do we do we share we're raising a family to go okay those are all practical issues very real issues that must be worked out it would it would just be the same as as a man who left his wife right he was he was following Jesus he fell into sin and disobedience he left his wife had an affair with another woman divorces his wife marries that woman is raising kids and then truly gets right with God and his his first wife has been praying for him all these years and and praying for the restoration of the relationship she'll come back he'll come back to her and to those children when he repents I understand that's what would require because that's what God would require of him that he wrongly severed that first marriage that that he wrongly got involved with another woman wrongly followed the children who's committing adultery in God's sight and the right thing for him to do with now that you figure out how to make the arrangements and care for the kids it's difficult but this these are some of the messes that we make and it's tragic but these are the hard realities friends so when she says you know some of the outcomes or that she's heard well people may have done that and I appreciate the steps they're taking but to be fully right and honorable before the Lord and honorable before the Lord they have to take that additional step which is to sever the legal marriage it's not legal or meaningful or binding in God's sight when she says God hates divorce and look God hates divorce and this is divorce no he hates divorce when it's real marriage he hates divorce when he's the one who brought the two together when God makes the two one and now there's separation that's what he hates he wants that union to be for life he wants that union to be blessed he hates divorce when the marriage is valid when it's not a married a valid marriage he doesn't hate divorce because it's not it's not real divorce because it's not real marriage and in the case of two men or two women it doesn't matter how many courts pronounce the marriage married God never saw them as married so the divorce is something good the divorce is something positive the divorce is something righteous so yes yes yes let us have hearts of compassion let us understand let us weep let us take someone by the hand and feel their pain and feel the burden and get on our knees together and say God show us how to fix this because this is a mess you've got shared resources you've got kids raised with two mommies or two daddies show us how to deal with this righteously and in a way that will honor you yeah but we need those hearts of compassion we also need those backbones of steel and we can't send out an unclear message here and and I do want to reach out to Rachel and and ask her to to come on the the show and dialogue with this to reinforce the things we have in common we agree with and and then to to work these things out this is not a personal attack this is public statements that I'm interacting with publicly as as we often do and and my hope my hope is always that we grow together that we hear God together that we learn of God together that that we we challenge one another and like iron sharpening iron that we help one another get 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askdrbrown.org click on donate monthly support it's the line of fire with your host Dr. Michael Brown get on the line of fire by calling 866-34 TRUTH here again is Dr. Michael Brown welcome back to the line of fire broadcast Michael Brown coming your way from Jerusalem not taking calls today but interacting with some clips some audio clips as we stand together on the front lines of the culture wars a friend sent this to me he is Jewish battled with same-sex attraction decided to see what the Jewish sources had to say what scripture had to say years ago concluded it was contrary to God's will and then began to really learn and understand the Jewish culture and then began to really learn and understand where things came from where feelings arose from the sense of orientation etc one of the one of the first big lessons he learned or a big lesson that he learned at a certain point was identification was half the battle that if you said I am gay this became part of who you were that you had lost half the battle already if you said I am such and such I am a Christian I'm a Jew and I struggle with same-sex attraction you already won half of the battle so he was very helpful when I began researching some of these issues years ago helpful in both giving me sensitivity to people and understanding of issues by sending me endless helpful links and he sent me a video the other day it is 13 minutes and 50 seconds long in its entirety and it is by a gentleman who I never heard of before named Jeffrey Tripp he is a looks like a math teacher math professor at rock valley college so it says rock valley college math faculty member in his bio and he's got these videos he's been putting out a few thus far sounds like BS but then he has in parentheses biblical studies and and this one that I was sent dealt with Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 so I want to play some clips I'm going to to play the clip and then interact with it so here is clip number one hey welcome back in my previous video on Sodom and Gomorrah I sort of casually remarked that the biblical book of Leviticus forbids anal sex between men not that it was my intent but a lot of Christian and Jewish homophobes would agree with me on that it's just they go a lot further than what the text says you shall not lie with a male as with a woman it is an abomination this is one of the old testament passages speaking about homosexuality Leviticus 18 and the laws in the Torah concerning forbidden sexual relations among which includes of course the commandment to not commit homosexuality well we're not really sure they say what God says about homosexuality you turn to this passage I don't think it's that hard to figure out Leviticus of course does not say do not be homosexual or god forbids homosexuality at least not in so many words but these Jewish and Christian homophobes hear that anyway so the question becomes what choices do these readers make to hear what they want to hear in the mosaic law that god forbids homosexuality for everybody let's ask a few critical questions in this episode of sounds like bs Leviticus 18 and 20 all right so the first point that Jeffrey Tripp is making is that it's very common for Jewish and Christian interpreters to read Leviticus 18 22 that that says it is forbidden it is detestable in god's sight for a man to lie with a man the way a man lies with a woman which he would then say specifically means anal intercourse so there's penetration in a way that that is inappropriate and based on this that they then say that god says don't be homosexual period so in other words you can't be in the same sexual relationship regardless of what sexual contact you have and it applies to men and it applies to women and he's saying of course he's he's calling us homophobes those of us who who have these views so that's his projection his viewpoint but he's raising a fair question what was Leviticus actually forbidding how far was it going what did it actually say so fair question to ask of course the homophobes have just put aside the the polemics there but okay fair question to ask let's go to clip number two so what do readers think Leviticus says about homosexuality at verse 18 22 Yahweh tells Israel and you will not lie with a male like with a woman it is an offense the you here is masculine because the intended audience of most of the laws is basically Israelite dudes women can learn the law from their husbands like okay so two quick points and then we'll get into this a little further number one translating toa with offense is unacceptable it's not what the Hebrew says it means something detestable something abominable so to say it's an abomination yes you could say that or you could say it is detestable but offense is is not a good translation of the Hebrew also to say that the intended audience is just Israelite dudes and sarcastically the the women can learn from the husbands put aside this specific law but the 10 commandments are addressed to individuals right god speaks it to all Israel but he says lo tinaf do not commit adultery lo tird sah do not murder lo tignove do not steal right each thing is a singular command to a male if you're telling a male don't do this that's how you say if you say telling a single female you would say it differently if you're telling a group of men you would say it one way if you're telling a group of women you would say it another way but when god says you shall not murder it means all of you it's just doesn't mean the male dudes all right so when there are forbidden unions when god says you shall not do this and it's addressed to one individual person it is speaking to that one individual person as if it was the whole nation both male and female all right so that's a misnomer there now this specific verse is of course talking about male sexual behavior the question is does it only mean male sexual behavior well when god says don't murder and it's addressed to a singular male it's not only telling men not to murder but everyone so we need to look at this again to see what exactly is intended but these statements the translation and the statement that's misleading all right back to jeffrey trip first of all the word i've translated as an offense is often rendered even in modern translations which is a bit dramatic i mean i sin all the time but i almost never commit abominations since it's not 1604 i've gone with a less loaded translation as freedman and dalansky highlight in their book the bible now dudes sleeping with dudes is an offensive act not an especially evil sin against god all right so so here jeffrey trip tries to defend the offense translation but i want to point out that when you read through libidicus 18 and god describes incestuous relationships bestiality when he describes these things homosexual practice idolatry he describes them as toy vote abominations things that are detestable and in proverbs 6 god gives a list of of six things that he hates just seven that are detestable to him it's the same word used there so detestable the same word used there feet that are quick to run to evil hands that shed innocent blood those are listed as things detestable inside things things that he hates so we do not want to minimize the reality of that for a split second now let's dig a little deeper and see what jeffrey trip claims these texts say he's made reference also in his presentation to libidicus 20 verse 13 noting that the penalty there for male homosexual behavior is capital punishment is death okay back to mr trip a specific sex act is forbidden not an entire sexual orientation here's what i mean by that since there are many who uncritically jump from one to the other the torah has dozens of restrictions on straight sex including of specific sex acts for example having sex with a woman while she's menstruating yet no one concludes that the torah condemns heterosexuality by contrast the torah condemns one homoerotic sex act and they conclude that god condemns all homosexuality that's a glaring inconsistency in their logic and it continues many christian churches forbid specific sex acts to straight couples but again despite all these condemnations of heteroerotic sex acts they don't condemn heterosexuality they just disapprove of certain sexual practices but with libidicus we would have to use a completely different logic for male anal sex as some sort of symbol for all homosexual behavior all right so his point is here that a specific act that is common among gay men is forbidden by god but not all homosexual acts between gay men or gay women are prohibited and certainly not all relationships same-sex relationships are prohibited that would be his argument here just as there are certain heterosexual acts with a married couple that many christians would say are wrong that does not condemn all heterosexual acts all right here's the problem though with his argument the problem is that he is failing to recognize a number of key things here first and foremost there there is the order that god established the genesis this this cannot be downplayed where the suitable helper for adam was eve because she was once she was taken out of man and now the two come together she is the isha taken out of the ish so is there unique union biologically and every other way between male and female by design at creation that's why every reference to relationships in the bible that are approved by god on any level is they're all heterosexual and they all presume heterosexuality from honor your father and mother to husbands love your wives and why submit your husbands they all presuppose heterosexuality every teaching on marriage presupposes heterosexuality every parable every law every illustration it comes from creation it comes from what god established at the beginning in the beginning we we can't deny that downplay it minimize it in any way shape size or form all right so that's that's the first thing that there is the fundamental violation of the uniqueness of adam and eve male plus male or female plus female can never equal male plus female the second thing here is that the the the same plus same the man lying with a man the way a man lies with the woman why is that detestable in god's sight what is so wrong about it again it is a fundamental violation of the order of nature that god set up what paul will expand on in romans one saying that this is contrary to nature meaning contrary to the way that god created us we can't minimize that we can't deny that you can't downplay downplay that so again these are things that are failing to look at the larger biblical context in which these laws come okay we're going to come back a little bit more from professor trip on the other side we i'm paul brunette a board-certified doctor of holistic health and i want to introduce you to try vita's multi-collagen formula if there was ever a message i would want the world to hear it would be about the 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the line of fire okay so back to jeffrey trip he says hey look what about lesbians the text here doesn't say anything about about lesbians listen to what he says turning again to friedman and dalansky ancient israel was a polygamous culture wealthy men could have as many wives as they could afford you know like the biblical heroes abraham and jacob and moses and straight men with multiple women sex partners are not about to forbid homoerotic activity between women it's like free life born lesbian sex is not really treated by the rabbis until the telmude in the middle ages where again unmarried lesbians are lumped together with unmarried straight couples since both involve women even more telling a man living with an unmarried woman makes her a prostitute but a woman living with another woman and playing with her is merely obscene no violation of the law even if the rabbis disapprove two responses to that number one for new testament believers that's not an issue because romans one categorically forbids lesbian relations as well saying that men with men men with men and women with women are in violation of god's created order and what he intended and a sign of our rejection of god just as other forms of sexual immorality or a form of our rejection of god or an evidence of our rejection of god just as idolatry is further proof of our rejection of god the father that we can fall into with idolatry and then many many other sins of the flesh all part of our rejection of god so there's categorical condemnation of homosexual behavior be it lesbian be it male homosexual in romans one and then elsewhere in the new testament uh reinforcing some of these other aspects so that's the first thing the second thing is it can be argued that just as other laws in israel were addressed to a single individual and the way you do it in in hebrew when you're addressing a single individual you do it as if you're talking to a man when you're talking to a group of people in hebrew to this day you address male plural that includes everybody that you could argue an argument can be made that by implication for women to lay with each other the way they would lay with men that's not going to be identical any more than male with male is identical that that is also forbidden so it could be by derivation that that would be the case let me also read this to you this is from leviticus chapter 18 as well do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with herself with it a woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it that is a perversion well it only specifically singles out a woman here it says do not that's the generic singular male but then he said a woman must not well if it doesn't single out a man in addition then maybe it means it's only really bad for a woman well who would make that argument who would possibly make that argument that bestiality is only really bad if it applaud if it's a woman involved and not not a man so again you you cannot hyper limit the law and to say it only spoke about male activity the other thing is when it comes to rabbinic judaism uh jeffrey trip wrongly speaks of the talmud of the middle ages the talmud is completed in the fifth sixth century of this era but many of so that's before the middle ages number one but number two much of the material in it goes to centuries earlier and preserves traditions that were passed down from previous generations so it could be from 200 years after the time of jesus some from the time of jesus some from immediately before the time of jesus some of those traditions are preserved in the talmud as well and ultimately rabbinic judaism rules against homosexual behavior be it male or female that's that's the ultimate reality there all right one more two more clips from jeffrey trip as we bring this to a close there are some jewish and christian interpreters who recognize the dignity of lgbtq people and who want to cordon off these laws by arguing that they're irrelevant in a modern context first of all they say the law appears in the holiness code a sort of text within the text that outlines how ancient israel should be distinct separate or to use a fancy old word holy from the egyptians and the cananites in fact chapter 18 begins speak to the people of israel and say to them i am your god yahweh you will not do as they do in the land of egypt where you lived and you will not do as they do in the land of canan to which i'm bringing you you will not follow their statutes you will observe my ordinances and you will keep my statutes and follow them i am your god yahweh and you know just to drive the point home you will keep my statutes and my ordinances one will live by doing so i am yahweh in other words the stated purpose of the laws in chapter 18 including the prohibition against anos x is to distinguish the israelites from outsiders since we're not ancient israelites in danger of mixing with cananites the holiness code isn't relevant anymore or so the argument goes at the very least we can point out that these rules are presented as strictly insider rules for israelites not universal ones for everybody god doesn't ask them to stop cananites from having anal sex just don't do it yourselves in other words if christian and jewish men don't want to have anal sex with each other or if they even want to denounce homosexual relationships in their churches or synagogues then they can do that and be in line and be in line with leviticus but there's no obligation to force other people outside of their churches and synagogues to follow these commandments even sticking to the strict letter of the law the text says these rules are specifically for members only all right so again we've given responses to this idea that this is not just exclusively forbidding a specific act between two males and think of it think of god saying oh yeah two men two women love each other that's good that's fine and have all kinds of sexual relations just don't do this one specific thing that's detestable you know that that becomes a little bit beyond bizarre but as we've stated every blessed relationship every prescribed relationship every referenced relationship that god recognizes in the bible is between the male female even polygamy which was not his ideal but which was something that was part of israelite culture and that god worked within just his divorce was not his ideal but it was something that he gave in the law because the weakness of the flesh he still it's all still between a man and a woman right it never goes that well god will just accept the same sex relationship um as as long as it's within certain parameters no that's not the case in the bible there's not a single example you think there'd be at least one single clear example and there there's not a single one there's not a single one but we come to the bottom line and this is his question of who cares let's hear what he has to say last clip all right here's where things break down even further and where the text has really been missed and minimized i want to read to you from the end of leviticus chapter 18 all right and this is what is so crucially important look at what god says here beginning verse 24 do not defile yourselves in any of these ways because this is how the nations that i'm going to drive out before you became defiled even the land was defiled so i punished it for its sin and the land vomited out its inhabitants oh hang on when the Canaanites and others that were in the land practiced things like incestuous relationships that's mainly what leviticus 18 is about when they practice those things when men were with men like men being with women when they committed adultery when they did other things listed here and idolatry god judged them for it god drove them out of the land for when they when they sacrificed their children to other gods he drove them out of the land but you must keep my decrees in my laws the native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things for all these things were done by the people who live in the land before you and the land became defiled and if you defile the land it will vomit you out is it vomited out the nations that were before you so please understand this god judged pagans for these things israel was not to practice them because they were wrong for everybody no it wasn't up to israel to go and stop the people from sinning they drove them out of the land but it was up to israel to not do what they did because those things brought them under divine judgment so yes the requirements that god gave to israel were for israel but these were also universal moral standards that god had for the human race based on which he judged the human race simple principle if something was wrong for pagans it's wrong for believers very simple biblical principle of interpretation and that's where professor trip fatally missed aside from other missteps and some of them are understandable some points debatable but other things not debatable right which is that this was not just sinful for israel here's another question what about all the incest laws professor trip please give me other laws in the bible or other statements in the new testament based on which we say that ancestral relationships say even to adults consensual adults is wrong to our brothers to adult sisters an adult father and adult whatever it is we would universally say those relationships are wrong sexual romantic relationships are wrong that are incestuous we would agree with that list in leviticus 18 well if you want to take it out and say it's irrelevant it doesn't matter today who cares well then you have to say i guess incest is okay according to the bible no there are laws that god gave to israel to keep them separate from the nations that were not intrinsically about morality like don't cut your beard a certain way or don't sow two different seeds in your field or uh eat certain foods and not other foods but there are other laws that god gave to israel and said don't do these things because they are wrong for everybody the prohibition against murder was for everybody so once again these texts are as clear as they have ever been god always forbids homosexual practice but through the cross he gives mercy transformation repentance to all come as you are and jesus will change you as this has changed a multitude of others another program powered by the truth network