Comments on American Gospel 3

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Thank you so much for joining us, friends. Since I spoke with you yesterday, I have been triply blessed, and I'll tell you why in a moment. We're going to talk about a new documentary coming out, American Gospel. The very first documentary with that title got a lot of views, millions of views. Many people really blessed by it, helped by it.

Others felt it was unfair, hit piece. American Gospel 3 is out. I'm actually in this and recorded hours and hours, probably 9, 8 or 9 hours of actual content. I ended up recording being part of. So I want to talk to you about that, talk about larger issues within the charismatic movement.

Good, bad, ugly, wonderful. If you want to weigh in, if you've watched the trailer, we're going to play clips from the trailer. Brandon Kimm and the producer or the director of this encouraged me to do a show on this.

So I'm playing the clips of the entire trailer during the show. So if you don't know what I'm talking about, you'll get it out of the horse's mouth, so to say. We're going to comment on that. As always, we want to be as constructive as possible.

If you want to weigh in, pro or con, agreeing, disagreeing, 866-344-866-348-7884. I also want to speak to you from my heart about our vision about what God's called me to do, about the time that we're in and this radio broadcast. And I think encourage you with what I want to share.

And tell you again in a moment why I was triply blessed since I spoke to you on the air yesterday as we are broadcasting again from our studios in Dallas at Christ for the Nations Institute. But when I got off radio yesterday, and I was looking at headlines, and I saw just so much about the earthquake, devastating earthquake in Turkey and Syria, and I was so caught up with ministry and other things we were talking about, I just didn't talk about it on the air. But who can imagine, unless you've been in that kind of a situation, who can imagine this devastation? I mean, thousands and thousands and thousands of people killed in a moment of time. Life is normal.

You're just going about your business. It's not even like, you know, a hurricane is coming or a tornado is coming or something like that. Just you're going about your business, suddenly massive earthquake. I read reports that people in Syria, so Turkey hit the worst, but people in Syria were praying. They thought it was Judgment Day.

They thought it was all over. They're crying out for mercy. The devastation of it, the lives lost, a generation is just affected by a tragedy like this.

We can't get back the lives that are lost. Obviously, there are all kinds of relief efforts, and Christians will be on the front lines of that in these Muslim countries. But as always, pray for God's mercy. We don't know why these things happen, except this is a fallen world. We don't take everything as a specific act of divine judgment, as if these were the worst of sinners.

No, instead we just know we're in a fallen, messed up world, and we need God's mercy and grace. So pray that good will come out of this and that comfort will come to those who've lost loved ones or themselves devastated physically, economically because of this. That God's grace will arise. It will be a platform for people to come to Him in the midst of the pain, in the midst of the agony.

All right. I know words are cheap, but what else can I do over the radio but speak these words and offer them? And many times, because we have grads working in many nations around the world, sometimes they're involved in efforts of help and relief and things, even on the front lines, which is a tremendous blessing to know that. So the reason I've been triply blessed since I spoke with you yesterday was last night, it was Tuesday night encounter at Christ for the Nations. So we had a glorious time of worship. I preached on God backing those whose hearts are wholly His. And then we just spent a long time freshly consecrating our lives and saying, God, we want to serve you. We want to honor you. We know there'll be tough times and difficult times and times of temptation.

And so we're praying now against those days that your grace will be there, that you'll carry us through. And just a beautiful time seeing so many of these precious students and grads and visitors just hungry and desiring to glorify the Lord in a beautiful presence of God. And then I teach at 11 in the morning at Christ for the Nations.

But before that, I was picked up and brought over to upper room. They've been having a great outpouring. Pastor Michael Miller told me that on their Sunday morning service, they have Saturday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night.

That Sunday morning, people line up an hour and a half, two hours before service is waiting to get in. And he's talking about all the young people being touched, being transformed, those deconstructing, now reconstructing, my words there, because they've encountered God afresh, beautiful, wonderful to hear. So I spoke to their students, oh, maybe 150 or so ministry students there, then got in the car, drove back and then had a wonderful blessed time with the wonderful students from 40, 50 nations here at CFNI.

So what a privilege, what a joy. And I was talking to one of the pastors who's a leader at CFNI. At the end of the services, we were just basking in the presence of God and people pouring their hearts out to God in prayer and worship. And I said to him, you know, so many pastors, leaders, believers around America, and they're not in environments like this.

And it's got to be so discouraging and so hard. So I just want to speak to each of you that you're in an environment where you're really not seeing God moving. You're not seeing an outpouring. You're not seeing young people flocking to the Lord.

You're not having beautiful times of encounter. People don't have a heart for worship, a heart for prayer. Be encouraged. God will pour out water on the thirsty land.

Be encouraged. God will fill the hungry. God will satisfy the thirsty. And if you continue to cry out to him and long for him, he will come. And no matter what environment you're in, you can encounter him privately. And that's got to be your encouragement, your life, your hope, your help, that you're meeting with him in private even when it's dark and difficult around you. In private worship, in private prayer, you're encountering him.

Out of that light and strength, you can bring blessing to others. But God's moving. Things are happening. I'm seeing it all around America, not just in ministry schools, in churches, in all kinds of settings, God moving on the streets.

Things are happening. Be encouraged. All right, the American gospel. Let me play trailer number one, part number one from the trailer. It will speak for itself.

And then when it's done, I will dive in and give you some comments. Let's listen together. So with reading our three major economic engines, tourism, methamphetamine, marijuana, the drug culture, and then Bethel Church. Bethel Church is known globally. People come to Bethel from all over the nation and the world for healing. They say that the anointing is stronger here. A couple who attends Bethel Megachurch in Reading is getting national attention for asking Christians to pray for the resurrection of their two-year-old daughter who died unexpectedly. We have a biblical precedent. Jesus raised the dead. So I went to Bethel School Supernatural Ministry.

I did three years there, so it's a three-year program. The leaders of this movement claim to be apostles and prophets with extraordinary authority, miraculous powers. Some people locally call it the Christian Hogwarts.

They charge tuition to teach you how to use or even receive the gifts of the Spirit. They are part of a movement called the New Apostolic Reformation. This NAR thing is basically a conspiracy theory. Yeah, the NAR is a real thing. It's not a conspiracy theory.

The way it is described doesn't exist. I see an unbelievable hyper-criticism. This conspiracy theory was adopted by heresy-hunting evangelicals. Endless people damning us to eternal hell fire. I mean, here I am, as an apologist, finding myself confused by this movement. My own home church was decimated by NAR teaching, and the church never really fully recovered from that.

I'm painted as a leader in NAR, and I don't believe any of those things. We've seen a lot of pain come out of this movement. It was the first time I feel like I truly understood the Gospel, and I was sold such a cheap bill of goods. This movement impacts Christianity at every fundamental doctrine of the faith. Standing in the office of the prophet of God. Now, how are we supposed to know whether an individual is a prophet?

I execute judgment on you, COVID-19. I had to come to the terms that I was not a prophet, and I was also a false prophet. This is the sash that I received the night I was released as an apostle. So if somebody were to say to you in the ancient world, I'm an apostle, the immediate question would be, well, who sent you?

When a church changes its leadership structure to apostles and prophets, what follows is all this aberrant theology behind it. All right, so that's the first part of the trailer I want to play for you. Brandon Kimber, who directed this, put out the first American Gospel film, and it went viral. It took off, I think, way beyond what anyone was expecting.

I only watched part of it when it first came out, or sometime after it came out, I heard about it. I watched part of it, and as I watched, I thought, I absolutely agree with some of these critiques. There were definitely abuses that are wrong, a hyper-faith prosperity message that was being critiqued.

I absolutely agree with some of the points that are being raised, and I'm sure it throws out the baby with the bathwater. From what I saw, those are my conclusions. I heard about American Gospel II, didn't see any of that. And then Brandon reached out to me a year and a half ago and said, we're doing American Gospel III, we're going to talk about so-called NAR, neuro-pastoral reformation, and charismatic revival issues, and I want to get the other side. This is not going to be Strange Fire 2.0, Strange Fire being the conference that Pastor John MacArthur hosted some years ago that I took exception to in terms of many of the things that were taught and said there, with all respect for Pastor MacArthur. And I wrote a book called Authentic Fire to respond to his book, Strange Fire.

Brandon said to me, and he's given me full permission to quote what he said publicly, his emails, that he was not looking for Strange Fire 2.0, that he wanted to get different sides of things, and he knew that I was one who was free to criticize abuses in the charismatic movement, as well as willing to engage on both sides. So I said, okay, let's do it. We planned like an hour and a half to answer the questions he had. He sent me the questions in advance. I wasn't happy with the questions. I told him, he said, well, these are the questions critics ask.

I said, okay, it's framing things a certain way, but let's do it. But my answers were so lengthy, we ended up filming four and a half hours. And then subsequently, I flew to Cleveland. Was it to Cleveland?

Yeah, I think it was to Cleveland. I flew to Cleveland to film more with Doug Avedt and Holly Pivik, who are famous for their writings now about NAR and things like that and various abuses that they encounter, they believe they've encountered. So we filmed over four hours of dialogue face to face.

And then other colleagues of mine, Randy Clark and Daniel Kolenda, agreed to film. So I truly believe, despite Brandon's own perceptions and beliefs, that he is truly trying to get both sides and genuinely trying to be objective. Now, whether any of us succeed in that or not is another question. But even on the trailer, he's trying to show both views. But even on the trailer, I take strong exception to things. So he's encouraged me, hey, talk about it on the air.

That's what I'm doing. I'm going to tell you the problems I have with the first trailer. First part in a moment. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us, friends, on the line of fire. So when Brandon put out his initial short trailer for American Gospel 3, he asked me if I would like to post a short response to it at the end. So the trailer was three or four minutes. I said, sure, absolutely, I'll do it. I mean, I interacted with him with the trailer. I told him what I thought was fair, unfair. He adjusted certain things, other things he felt that was the right way to present it. But then asked me, hey, go ahead.

So I put a 30-second response or so at the back of it and just said, look, I really differ with some of these things and feel they're unfairly presented, which is why I'm in the documentary to give the other side of the story. Now, remember, I've written books like 1991, Whatever Happened to the Power of God? Is the Charismatic Church Slain in the Spirit or Down for the Count?

Or 2018, Playing with Holy Fire, a Wake-Up Call to the Pentecostal Charismatic Church. So I am known, perhaps within the Pentecostal Charismatic movement, for which I joyfully participate and fully believe in the gifts and power of the Spirit as described in the New Testament for today as well and rejoice in what God is gloriously doing all around the world. At the same time, I'm known probably as the most prominent internal critic within our movement.

So I've got no problem addressing things. And I'm often interacting with people privately about issues and sometimes publicly. But I felt things were presented in an imbalanced way. With a long trailer, not only did Brandon invite me to make a longer response at the end, but also invited Randy Clark, Dr. Clark, to make a longer response at the end and one other brother who worked with Heidi Baker to make a longer response. So I really genuinely believe Brandon is seeking to bring a balanced approach here. Where I have problems with that first part of the trailer, here's where I have problems.

Number one, the idea that Bethel leaders claim to be apostles and prophets with special authority. I'm not close friends. I know Bill Johnson. I interact more with Chris Vallatin. We've been together physically, you know, in the same place a few times. We're not close friends, but interact.

I could just text him and say, hey, this came up, that came up. To my knowledge, as far as I know, they don't claim to have special apostolic prophetic authority. To my knowledge, they believe in our apostles and prophets today as I do, but they don't claim to have this special authority to the best of my knowledge. And also when you hear like a horror story, I was at this school and this happened, I was taught this. Well, you know, Bethel's graduated 15,000 people from the School of Supernatural Ministry. I can guarantee you I can go to any major school in America, a cessationist school, a charismatic school, a Baptist school, a Presbyterian school. I can go to any major school that's graduated a lot of people and come back with horror stories. I guarantee you I can go to any major church in America and talk to people who've left that church. I'm talking about a mega church. So it's had thousands and thousands of people and get you horror stories about how terrible the church was and how damaging the doctrine was.

Guaranteed. So just because you have a horror story doesn't tell you the whole story, just to be fair. And even the idea that you go there, you pay money to learn how to be activated in the gifts, that's a very, very misleading critique. I might as well say you go to seminary, and in fact at the end where I critique the trailer I make this point, you can go to seminary and there at seminary you learn how to preach or you learn how to pastor and you learn how to study the Bible and they charge you for that. So you can go to any charismatic Pentecostal church and say, could you pray for me to be filled with the Spirit? And people will pray for you.

They're not going to charge you or say we have to go to our school to learn that. Or any time we want to be released and helped in various aspects of ministry, we can benefit from a training center. But these things give false impression. I can give you story after story of people who left non-charismatic churches and came into the things of the Spirit and said, for the first time I feel alive, for the first time I understand Jesus, for the first time I understand the Bible.

So personal stories, either way we've got to be careful because we could damn each other with counter stories. You've got to look at the whole, as for Bethel praying for the resurrection of a baby, a little girl that died, I have no problem with that. As long as people understand that Jesus raised some from the dead but did not raise all and you ask God to do it, if I had the trauma of losing a little child, if that happened and people said we want to pray for your child to be raised, I would rather say well let's do it and then if she's not raised, if God doesn't answer that prayer, well she's with the Lord and we'll see her again and we'll mourn and miss her. I don't see that as some criminal terrible thing and it seemed that the community of believers came through it together. On the other hand, on the other hand there are definitely practices that have come into question and should come into question. And there's a wacky book, Physics of Heaven, Pastor Mike Winger recently did a major critique about it that's going viral on YouTube and I've asked Bethel leadership about it and despite endorsements, the official word I was given was it does not reflect our values in teaching, it is not taught anywhere in our school of ministry. So there's a disassociating from the book but it's definitely wacky and certainly of concern. So by all means let's address the concerns, by all means let's raise the issues. As for so-called NAR, when I'm told I'm a leader in NAR then I say, well, what does NAR believe? Well, I don't believe those things, I don't hold to those things.

Those are the issues, this creation of this boogeyman is ooh, there's NARs everywhere. And I could introduce you to churches around the world that once they understood certain principles about the things of the Spirit or recognized that God uses apostles and prophets today but not like New Testament apostles or Old Testament prophets, we understand that. Once they realized that and came into it, their churches have thrived and grown and many tens of thousands have been saved. So there's stories on each side, let's get to facts and reality. And hopefully that will happen over the course of this trailer.

But again, I'm just interacting candidly as we go on. Let's go now to clip number two from American Gospel 3. She came up manifesting her laughter, acting intoxicated. This goes back to April of 1993 when Rodney Howard Brown was visiting the carpenter's church in Lakeland, Florida. He's also known as the Father of Holy Laughter. Phil, Phil, Phil, Phil. And the Holy Ghost Bartender.

But I want you to know tonight the bar is open. If you were to be in the immediate presence of Christ, you wouldn't have a laughing revival. Do you not know our history? There's incidences of it happening under Finney, the First and Second Great Awakening. This happened when Pentecost came to Canada. A bizarre religious phenomenon called the Toronto Blessing. This is where you go to catch the fire and the fire of the Holy Spirit. There was laughter, there was joy, there was drunkenness in the Spirit. There's no biblical precedent for being drunk in the Holy Spirit.

These things are not novel. And that made the Toronto Blessing incredibly controversial, even within charismatic circles. And I believe that the fruit of what happened vindicates that it was of God.

But just what is revival? They've soft-pedaled God's warnings, have made the reality of hell a fairy tale. The Brownsboro Revival was the most sacred, glorious work I've ever been a part of in my life. We are not just bad people, we are sinners. Every single night, Jesus was exalted in worship. And until you realize you're a sinner, you will not realize you need a savior.

Every single night, calling for repentance from sin. But revivalism is when man tries to manufacture that. At any moment, revival could come. Bring revival! Revival is just around the corner. You're constantly chasing after it. And so I thought, well, I don't want to miss the next revival.

And what if it comes in a manner that we're not used to seeing and we miss it? Pastors orchestrated first revival. You cannot plan a revival any more than you can plan a hurricane. And this thing just kind of spread all over the world. I remember in 1996, we had guys from Toronto come to India. And so in Mumbai, we had something called Catch the Fire. Bill Johnson says he caught the fire and he came back to ready. I believed it was God, so I'm taking the seat belts off. I'm jumping head first. I was ready. I had my hands up, I was like, today's the day I'm about to fall out in the Spirit.

Here it goes. And they hit my stomach and nothing happens. And I'm like, do it again. Do I think some people got in the flesh? Let's get the fun back into church. I thought this is the Holy Spirit and this is how he moves.

More Lord. The Bible says that the fruit of the Spirit is self-control. The question is, what is the source of these experiences? Do I think some of the manifestations was not of God? God wouldn't do that.

Why would God do that? And it felt like a bolt of electricity hit me in the chest. Not just me, the two ushers with me. It was as though a thousand volts of electricity is going through me. The minute I took one step in the fire tunnel, I felt an overwhelming sense of fear. Do I think some of the manifestations was actually demonic? Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And as soon as she pulls her hand away from me, she looks at me and she says, you have unforgiveness in your heart. What we really are doing is we're manipulating people. Did it have its issues? A hundred percent. But the fruit of what God did in Toronto is evident globally. And I can point to hundreds, if not thousands, of testimonies of the amazing things, including my own life, that God did through Toronto. If you want to see the real power of God unleashed, it's not in fake signs and wonders.

The real power of God is the gospel. Yes, so I think, Brandon, there really is seeking to bring a fair representation and recognize glorious, extraordinary, Jesus-exalting, life-changing, Holy Spirit birth things that God does in true revival. And as with every recorded revival in modern history over the centuries, every single one had things that were unusual, some things that were fleshly, some things that were demonic. And that's the thing, as Duncan Campbell affirmed and as Arthur Wallace wrote, if something claims to be a revival is not spoken against, look again to see if it's really a revival.

So this is going to happen just like in dead churches, people are falling asleep during the preaching, and in dead churches, people are going to church one way and leaving the same way. When it comes to revival, there are other kinds of abuses. So, yes, glorious, extraordinary things happened. Incredible food came out of Brownsville, Toronto, other revival movements, and there were abuses and fleshly things. But there, one comment I want to make, we come back on the other side of the break.

But again, I think it's, again, seeking to be fair, and hopefully the whole documentary will give the different side. We'll be right back. I want to focus back on the subject of self-control in a moment. But first, my new book will be released in about one month, but you can pre-order a signed, numbered copy exclusively through our ministry, Why So Many Christians Have Left the Faith. I'm bringing it up now because I have a whole chapter on the effects of a compromised gospel.

This is not just charismatic. This is much of the Church of America. For a whole generation, I and many others have been shouting at the top of our lungs about a compromised gospel that's been preached. It's a gospel that exalts man and denigrates God. It's a gospel that bypasses the cross. It's a gospel that's, what's in it for me? And it's not really the true gospel. Sometimes it has enough truth in it that people come to the Lord through it, but in a very superficial way. And in other cases, they are just false converts. In other cases, they've come to the Lord, but they haven't been adequately discipled and starts with a message that is somewhat defective. And because of that, many people now, once trials come, tests come, they fall away. They were never really rooted.

They were never really grounded. Or people have a misapprehension of what the gospel is about. And that's something where Brandon and I absolutely share a deep concern about a real gospel message being preached that people understand their sin, their guilt before God, their need for a Savior.

And the fact that outside of God's extraordinary mercy, there is no hope. And he's not just asking us, well, give me an hour a week. He's saying, turn from your sin and turn to me. And now you are mine. I am Lord. That's the gospel. We are saved to serve. We are saved from sin to service to God forever. And that's our joy and our privilege and our honor. So my new book really opens that up, how this defective gospel message, as we're talking about the American gospel, I've used that same phrase for years, in plenty of different ways, but that defective message has led to defective Christianity in the nation, which has led to people having a wrong view of the gospel, which has led to more people turning away from their perception of the gospel.

Where they hear the truth, they don't want it. So go ahead, order now a copy of this book. We'll be shipping in a little over a week. As soon as I get back from an extended trip, be signing the books, sending them out to you, that'll be our first priority. But we have the books in stock already. Super helpful, super practical.

Why so many Christians have left the faith. So use this exclusive number for the book, 800-538-5275. 800-538-5275. It's 800-535-ASK.

5385-ASK. Get as many copies as you want. You can go to our website, askdrbrown.org.

Just click on Store. Go ahead and pre-order these. I think you'll find the book super, super helpful. Eye-opening and edifying. All right, so I want to play more of the trailer, but first this comment. When one leading pastor gets on and mentions the fruit of the spirit of self-control, so why are people laughing, falling, et cetera, I believe that's a complete misapplication of that verse. The self-control that scriptures speak of there, it speaks of moral self-control. It says, I say no to the lust of the flesh. I say no to anger and greed. I say no to gluttony. I say no to carnality. I say no to doing things that are dishonoring to God because by his grace, by the spirit, I have self-control. It's very, very different than being overwhelmed by the power of the spirit. When John fell like a dead man in the presence of God in Revelation 1, or Daniel in Daniel 10, or Ezekiel in Ezekiel 1, when these men of God fell, collapsed to the presence of God, or all Israel shaking at Mount Sinai, and Moses is extremely scared and trembling himself, were they lacking self-control?

No! That's not what it's about. I've laid hands on tens of thousands of people and seen many fall flat on their face. They're just out, and they're encountering God. They get up changed. I run into them 20 years later, and they tell me, you laid hands on me, and God touched me, and I've never been the same.

To this day, I run into people that tell me about something 20, 30 years ago, or two years ago, or three years ago. I've seen people fall. I've seen people shake. I've seen people stand there, and nothing happens. My wife Nancy, she's never been, quote, slain in the spirit in her life, ever.

Ever. So that's not a sign of spirituality either way, but that's got nothing to do with self-control. And to quote that in that context, with all respect to leaders that do, that's not what it's about. Self-control would be if someone's preaching, and you decide you want to talk to the person. Self-control means be quiet.

But if suddenly you come under conviction, and you're sitting there weeping, that's not lacking in self-control. So that's where I would differ. But again, you're getting different sides. That's what this is about.

You're getting different sides, and there are things to be critiqued, and there are false critiques, and there are wonderful things to embrace, and there are bad things to reject. All right, we go back to the trailer clip number three. Here we go. John G. Lake is presented as being this phenomenal healer credited with hundreds of thousands of healings, miracles, visions, prophecies. I said, God, would you give me the mantle of William Branham?

I was born and raised in the Branham message cult following. This was a movement that was not of God in any way, shape, or form. It's been said that those who are cessationists believe in the Father, Son, and the Holy Scripture, and we've essentially ruled out the role and function of the Holy Spirit.

But nothing could be farther from the truth. I absolutely believe that God still physically heals people today. I believe God can do miracles. I believe He will do miracles, but only when it is His sovereign will to do so. He's already revealed His will. His will is to heal everyone. But there's something about hearing a physician say to you, I think that you'll be lucky to have six months. It's hard to hear.

It is really hard to hear. Christ is the ascended King. He has triumphed.

We share in that triumph. That doesn't mean that we stand in front of graves and call people out of their graves. The book of Acts is not given to us to attempt to reenact.

The real question is, what is normative? My guest has raised 37 people from the dead. Where's the proof of this? I do know people who raised more people from the dead than Jesus did. Jesus didn't do miracles to show us what God could do.

Jesus' statement is not that hard to understand. Greater means greater, and the works He referred to are signs and wonders. He didn't perform miracles to show what He could do.

It's meant to make you think that you are at the same level of Jesus. Whatever He did, I can do. He came to illustrate what a human being could do. He performed miracles to show what you can do. And the more that happens to Christians, it doesn't detract from what Jesus did. Christ is unique.

It brings glory to the main work that He did. They can't duplicate these miracles no matter how hard they try. Maybe we're not reading the New Testament correctly. I would say one of the greatest sins is the church just sitting in a pew, building this, and not actually going and doing what Jesus actually did, and not going to the poor, the sick, the needy, and the broken. Everybody skips over those verses. Apostolic anointing, and so we just rip it right out of the ground. We just suck it right off His dead bones in Jesus' name. I don't think you have to be a cessationist, for example, to be concerned about adopting new age and or pagan and occult practices. So as an apostolic team with the authority that God's given to us. They really believe they're apostles, and they believe they have apostolic authority. We decree and declare that racism will end.

It's blasphemous and sad thinking somehow they can recreate a scene from the Lord of the Rings. Do you feel like you backed into a boring, dead form of Christianity when you moved out of the NAR movement? No, if anything, I came to life. How was I so prideful?

How was I so entitled? Alright, so once again, the personal anecdotes. For every one person you can give me who was hurt by movement X, I'll give you ten people who were helped by movement X.

It goes back and forth, so you've got to be very careful with the personal anecdotes. But there are things that I see there that were done by charismatic leaders that I cringe, like, oh, come on. Oh, no, what are they thinking? And we deserve the criticism. We absolutely do. And the extreme thing, we're going to rip anointing off the graves and things like that.

Oh, come on, please. It's one thing to go to a grave, and there's a grave of a man of God or a woman of God that was a great example, and say, oh, God, you used them. Use me. Be inspired by their example. Or say, God, you worked through them, Lord.

Would you work through me in this way? It's another thing to think you're going to soak stuff up from the grave. Okay, ridiculous. Ridiculous. And should be repudiated and should be called out.

But at the same time, of course, everything I know, that was a fringe practice done, practiced by a fringe representative of people. But call it out. It's wrong.

Abusive. Absolutely. And certain, quote, apostolic declarations being made. You might as well stop all war, right? You might as well do this. So I understand that things can be done, even if people have good intent, they mean well.

Their desires, they want to see God move, they see God blessed, et cetera. But there are all kinds of abuses. Call them out. By all means, call them out. I join you.

I join you in calling them out. Absolutely. On the other hand, what do you do with what Jesus said? When he said, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. What do you do when you realize that he was making the Father's heart and will known by healing and setting people free? What do we do with the fact that the book of Acts is not just given to tell us history, but to show us what happens when the Holy Spirit is poured out? And people are radically saved and transformed, and the sick are healed, and demons are driven out.

And this was a norm. What do we do with the testimony of the New Testament? What do we do with 1 Corinthians 12, speaking of the gifts of the Spirit, which Paul makes plain, are to be here until Jesus returns, including tongues and prophecy and gifts of healing and things like that. What do we do with documented testimonies of miracles, of which there are many?

There are many, many, many. And the more scientifically attested, the more impossible they are to deny. And what do you do with John 14, 12, which was quoted during this very trailer, this very segment that we just played, which says, Jesus speaking to his disciples, whoever believes in me, trace that out. Look it up in the Greek and trace it out in John's gospel. Every time those words are used in the New Testament, whoever believes in me, they are universal promises, not just to the apostles, not just to leaders, universal promises. Whoever believes in me, the works that I do, will he do also. In that context, miraculous works and greater works than these will he do because they go to the Father.

So why should we be so scandalized when Jesus uses people to do these impossible, glorious things because he's gone to the Father and sent the Spirit? That's the Word. I believe in healing for today because of the Word, not because of what I see, but because of what's written. That's my foundation. All right, more to come, and then I want to share with you from my heart. We'll be right back. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, I'm going to play the last clip for you in a moment. For the record, I'm friends with Bill Johnson and Chris Vallinson. As I say, not close friends like we're in contact all the time, and Bill and I less so than Chris and I. But I'm not a defender of Bethel. In other words, I believe they're men of God. I believe they love the Lord, and they're serious about God, and there's lots of great fruit that came out. And then there'd be certain teachings, emphases I wouldn't agree with. So I'm not the one to defend or critique Bethel.

Let Bethel speak for itself. I'm simply repeating. If you hear something, I'll pass it on and say, hey, what do you think about this?

Is this true? And then respond just as a friend. But if you have issues, either way, if you're pro or con, I'm not the arbiter here or the arbitrator, whatever you want to call it. Okay, so I'm just going to play this last clip.

And because it features some of the rebuttal, some of the response, we'll kind of let it speak for itself. But here's the last clip of the American Gospel 3 trailer. I baptize you with water, but one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn. But he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Good to see you.

Good to see you too. So, stationist, continuationist, best buddies, tell the people how it happened, I guess. This isn't about Pentecostalism versus Reformed theology. This is about misrepresenting something beautiful and edifying and sovereignly given by the Holy Spirit.

You know, the scripture says that God hates unequal weights and measures. And that's what grieves me as I see some of this trailer. I know there's an attempt to be balanced, but I could make a whole documentary of all those that came out of cessationist churches and had their spiritual life totally transformed when they came into the things of the Spirit, the power of the Spirit, churches that were totally transformed. And I could do a whole documentary about those that left charismatic Pentecostal churches and left some of these spiritual movements and went into cessationist church or Reformed church and their faith became bankrupt and they fell away from the Lord. I could do a video about that. I could blast seminaries and say, there are seminaries where you have to pay money to learn how to preach the Word of God or how to pastor a church or how to study the Bible.

I mean, we've got to be careful when we caricature and paint certain pictures. You want to know who the real Bill Johnson is? Watch the sermon he preached after losing his wife to cancer after years of praying for healing. Friends, it's important we come with equal weights, equal measures.

That's why I'm part of this documentary. Man, I agreed to do this interview because truly I love the body of Christ and with all of its blemishes, differences. I love the body of Christ. I grew up in more of a Calvinist church. I have lots of friends that might disagree with me theologically, but yet we still have a very close friendship and close relationship.

I love iron sharpening iron. I think that it's really important to hear multiple aspects and multiple sides, not so that we just are in full agreement, but I think the more we hear from our brothers and sisters in Christ, the stronger we are and the better we are and the more we grow. I agreed to do this film really because I met Brandon, and you came highly recommended, Brandon, from a mutual friend.

I'm a pretty trustworthy guy anyway, so even though I know that I might not have the most popular takes with some of your other guests, I felt like I wanted to come and share. As I watched the documentary, The American Gospel, I just wished there had been one other thing that was put in it, and that would have been what Jesus emphasized. You can determine whether or not something is true or false by the fruit. It doesn't talk about the scientific study that's done by Dr. Margaret Paloma interviewing hundreds of people four years after the revival broke out that determined that there was excellent fruit in the effects on the people's lives who were touched by the revival. It doesn't talk about the millions of people that were born again and the scores of thousands of churches all over the world that were planted as a result of this revival. Though there was mixture, the good fruit far outweighs the bad.

As is the case in all historically recognized revivals. I believe that it's also very important that we realize that we can prove almost anything we want by editing and choosing who you include and who you don't include. I just wish there had been more evidence, more sharing the fruit, because that's what Jesus emphasized.

You shall know if something's true or false by the fruit. So I'm just going to leave things here and commend Brandon for inviting Randy and our other brother that was on and myself to invite us to give comments at the end and only our side at the end. I commend him for that, his genuine attempt to present something that is fair and balanced. He knows what I differ with. He knows the critiques that I have.

At the same time, I join with him. Let us expose what is wrong. Let us expose abuses, errors, and let us embrace what is good and beautiful and wonderful. The Holy Spirit is moving gloriously and powerfully around the world and there needs to be pruning and there needs to be discipling. So let's join together.

Rather than fighting each other, let's take one another's strengths, join together and help embrace what the Spirit is doing and reject what the flesh is doing or what the enemy is doing. Fair enough? And we'll see when the documentary comes out.

I believe it will be in parts because it's going to be so lengthy. Then everyone can evaluate for themselves. So there you have it. All right, from the heart, from the heart. For many, many years, I have spent countless hours on my face crying out to God, knowing he has given me a message for this nation and thankful for the audience we have, thankful for the fruit we have, super blessed by it, super blessed. I'm humbled by the reports we get, the testimonies we get.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. But I know that it's the will of God that this message be amplified on radio and in various media forums across the nation. Not that people know my name or know the line of fire, but rather that the purposes of God can go forth, that people can be shaken and stirred, that there can be awakening in the church, that we can confront the madness in the society with grace and truth together. And you're standing with me for that very purpose. So it has been a godsend that a godly leader with a company devoted to wellness with a purpose said, Dr. Brown, we want to come alongside of you and help blanket the nation with the line of fire.

It's been a godsend to me. And I want you to rejoice with your eyes and say, oh, now you're selling health supplements? Friends, we are encouraging you in every way, starting with your relationship with God, your mental, emotional health, and your physical lifestyle. We're encouraging everyone.

Live a whole and wholesome life before God. What has been amazing is your response. I have been blown away by how many of you have said, hey, we want to check out these wellness supplements because you're recommending them and we're hearing other stories that really they're highly recommended in double-blind studies and different things. But as you're calling in and ordering and saying, hey, we want to make sure funds are going to Dr. Brown.

So the company, Trivita, turns around and says, let's give 100% of every first order to support the line of fire. That's amazing news. This is going to open up funds to get on stations we've never been able to get on and talk to people we haven't been able to reach so far because they listen mainly on radio and that's how they're hearing things.

Or even people that listen by podcast often hear first on radio. So we have this amazing opportunity through this company's amazing generosity with tremendous products. And then if you keep ordering over the years, they're donating more than a tithe of every new order that comes in. This is even giving you discounts and all this special stuff. So every day we're getting reports and I'm amazed and now people are reordering because they've already had time to sample these things. So here's what you can do to help get the line of fire on around America.

First, if you haven't ordered yourself, whether it's the Nopalea for inflammation or nitric oxide for blood flow oxygenation or a mild health amino acids, the protein, muscle, all that, if you haven't ordered your own or the vitamin B12, whatever the different supplements are that interest you, go to the website tribeta.com, use the code BROWN25 as in my name, capital B, BROWN25. You'll get 25% off your entire order, however big it is, and 100%, every dime of that order will be donated then to the line of fire. Think of that. Or call 800-771-5584. Tell them Dr. Brown sent you. 800-771-5584.

One more time, it's 800-771-5584. And when you do, you may have questions. Say, hey, I'm looking to do this.

What would you recommend? They'll be happy to help you. But then if you have been helped yourself or enjoying these supplements, tell your friends, give them the same number and tell them Dr. Brown sent them, or use the same code. And friends, as we start to get on these new stations, I'm going to be talking about this less during airtime, and it's going to be during the advertising time that happens every day during the show. As you're listening on your radio, et cetera, there's advertising time.

You'll hear more directly from TriVita itself. But I want you to rejoice with us because this is a God thing. This is not about selling something or someone making money. This is about really something sacred that the Lord did to bring us together to help us in a helpful way spread this message around the nation.

Friends, please hear me. From the heart, God is moving in America in the midst of the darkness, the craziness that we expose constantly. Yesterday, the whole show about the darkness, craziness in the land, I know what's happening, and I know how much of the church is still compromised and even sleeping. But I'm telling you from the heart as an eyewitness and by faith, by my spirit, I know it. God is moving. The Holy Spirit is being outpoured. Things are happening. And as the church comes alive, it will shake the nation. And we can be part of it together on the front lines. Let's do it.