Responding To Your Pre-Trib Arguments

The following is a prerecorded program. So what are some of the best pre-trib arguments that have been offered? It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into The Line of Fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey friends, Michael Brown here, delighted as always to be with you. We're excited about the release next week of our book. I say our Professor Craig Keener and yours truly Not Afraid of the Antichrist, Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. You heard the interview with Professor Keener yesterday and what I want to do today is interact with some of the best arguments for the pre-trib position. This is not to prove my point. This is not to say we're right. This is to interact.

This is to say I appreciate the argument but here's why I differ with it. I asked for folks to post on Facebook and Twitter so I won't be taking calls today. I do plan, as the book is released next week, to take calls, have a pre-trib call-in day when you can call in and represent your position, but I won't be taking calls today. If you'd like to order the book together with the interview I did yesterday with Dr.

Keener, you can do that, get that package exclusively on our website. Go to AskDrBrown, A-S-K-D-R Brown.org and you'll see again as you read the book, as you heard the interview yesterday, our hearts are not to be argumentative or divisive just as many people are zealous and present the pre-trib view. This is what we hold to. We're very excited about it, but we don't hold to that and we're excited about what we believe Scripture teaches regarding the return of Jesus. So let everybody work these things out, come to their conclusions.

We don't divide over these issues. If you missed yesterday's broadcast, in short, Professor Keener and I were both saved in churches that taught a pre-trib rapture. That's what we learned when we learned the gospel right from the beginning, and then over the process of time studying Scripture for ourselves, we concluded that that was not taught in the Bible. Rather, it was something we were taught by sincere believers, but it was not taught in the Bible. Do I believe that God has worked through pre-trib teaching? Well, because there are many sincere followers of Jesus that hold to this.

Of course, he's worked through many a pre-trib minister. Not only so, I believe he used books like The Late Great Planet Earth, although I differ with a lot of theology in it, I believe he used books like that to say God is working in history. God has restored the Jewish people back to the land. The Bible is relevant for today, so I'm not dismissing this as all wrong or evil, but rather not ultimately what Scripture teaches, and with some potential danger because of a false hope or the idea that we might escape certain things in terms of persecution or judgment. All right, so let me start over on Facebook, and I asked folks to post what they felt were their strongest arguments for pre-tribulation rapture. I'm gonna scroll down to Karen, and she wrote this, John 14 3. What does it say in John 14 3? Jesus tells his apostles that he's going to go and prepare a place for them and for us, and that we will go to be with him. Karen says if Jesus says where he is going, he is preparing a place for us to take us to himself, then how can the second coming when he comes as judgment to set up his kingdom on earth be when the rapture occurs?

What would be the point of preparing a place where he is if he only comes to fetch us when he returns to stay to earth to stay? Pair that with Isaiah 26 20. He actually says we will go into our chambers that he's prepared for us and hide until the indignation tribulation has passed. These are the two verses the Lord gave me when I prayerfully asked him to reveal to me when the rapture would take place.

Karen, I appreciate that. Since you feel the Lord gave you these verses, then we agree whatever the verses say is what God gave you. John 14 3 has nothing to do with the pre-tribulation rapture. Number one, Jesus was telling the apostles he was preparing a place for them. That's where they have been with him. That's where all believers who have died up until now have been with him, waiting with him. Do not let your heart be troubled.

Excuse me. Trust in God. Trust also in me. My Father's house, there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I'm going to prepare a place for you? If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself so that where I am you may also be. Are you saying that this only applies for we're gonna be with him for seven years during the tribulation? That that's the place he prepared for us? And that he was telling the apostles, don't let your hearts be troubled.

I have a place prepared for the final generation where they'll go be with be with me for seven years while wrath is poured out on the earth. It has nothing to do with that whatsoever. Completely unrelated. Unrelated to future tribulation.

Unrelated to a seven-year period. This is a place he's prepared for us, where we'll be with him forever. When's that gonna happen? Excuse me.

Two times. First, we begin to get the experience of that. When we die and we go to be with him, he has a place prepared for us even now. But then, after he returns, after his thousand-year reign on the earth, the New Jerusalem that he has prepared for us will come down and we will be with him in it forever.

As for Isaiah 26 20, it's actually the exact opposite. Isaiah 26 20 is one of the strongest verses in the Bible that indicates that we will be here right through any wrath. Go, my people, enter your rooms, not a special chamber prepared in heaven for us, and shut your doors behind you. Hide for a little while until the wrath is passed. For behold Adonai is coming out from his place to punish inhabitants of the earth for iniquity. The earth will disclose her bloodshed, no longer covering up her slain. When God pours out his wrath on the earth at the end of the age, just as he protected Israel, when he poured out his judgments on Egypt and he protected Israel in the midst of that, he is saying, go and hide in your inner chamber.

I will protect you. It's not saying I'm taking you up to heaven to take you out of the way. Quite the contrary. So, Karen, I believe God gave you those verses, but they mean the opposite of what you interpreted them to mean, and I say that with all respect and I appreciate you giving this prayerful consideration.

Let's see. Chaz, I've heard some great teachings on the ancient Jewish wedding customs being a revealed example of Christ in his church, including arguing for the pre-trib rapture. Can you address this? Yeah, there also it's the opposite. I've heard this teaching that if you understand the ancient Jewish wedding festivals, then you'll see it totally supports a pre-trib rapture.

No, actually it's quite contrary to that. We see in the parable of the ten virgins, the five wives and the five foolish virgins, we see there that they go out to meet him, right? But only some have oil in their lamps, only some are ready, okay? So, what happens? They go out to meet him. They're not the bride, they're the bridesmaids. They go out, unless you think Jesus had five wives, okay, or ten wives, they go out to meet him and escort him to the bride's house for the wedding. So, they meet him along the way and bring him there. Now, what do I understand?

What does Professor Keener understand? What is the historical pre-millennial position, which was the position of the earliest believers, the disciples of the apostles, the early church fathers? This is what they held to, what we call historical pre-millennial position, that Jesus will return, set up his kingdom on the earth, rule and reign for a thousand years, and then we go into eternity. But what do we understand? We understand that he will appear for all the world to see. What are we waiting for? His secret coming, an invisible rapture? No, we're waiting for his appearing, his glorious appearing, when he will be revealed. In other words, every eye will see him, okay? He will appear in glory.

We will be caught up together with him, resurrected from the dead, and caught up to meet him if alive in our glorified bodies, and together descend with him to the earth. He said, well, that just has us turning around. Friends, the pre-trib rapture has Jesus turning around, all right?

That's presupposed, somebody's turning around. But this is not his near arrival, his near coming. We are waiting for his coming. The Greek parousia is his arrival. It is his glorious public arrival. He appears in the clouds, we are caught up together with him, and descend together as he establishes his kingdom on the earth. It really is quite glorious. Marcel, I think that the Great Tribulation that Christ prophesied about in the Olivet Discourse already took place around 70 AD, not to say other Christians won't face persecution before Christ returns.

I believe they're already in many countries outside the United States. The health and wealth gospel that permeates America seems to deceive many into thinking that there aren't supposed to be trials for the godly. God uses our earthly sufferings for our ultimate good. A more pertinent question might be, what about the millennial reign of Christ, and when that happens, is it already happening, or is it after Christ returns to the Mount of Olives? Marcel, I appreciate your comments, and I agree that we've had a carnal gospel that has often put us to sleep in the midst of a sinning world and given us the idea that we will be exempt from persecution and suffering and opposition. That being said, I believe there was great tribulation that existed before the destruction of the temple in the year 70. I believe there's tribulation taking place around the earth today. I believe there'll be great tribulation immediately before Jesus returns. But what's clear is that the Prophet spoke of a literal physical reign of Jesus on the earth and the transformation of the earth and the war and the nation's learning of the knowledge of God and Israel exalted.

They spoke of it literally, and Peter said in Acts 3 that what the Prophet spoke of will happen. So no, the millennial reign has not yet happened. We are not amillennial, meaning that there is a spiritual reign that replaces the physical.

There is a spiritual reign now, but there will be a physical reign on the earth. Okay, Jim says, I've heard Revelation 18 4 used effectively to assert that stance. Revelation chapter 18 verse 4, Then I heard another voice out of heaven say, My people, come out of her so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not be infected by her plagues, for her sins are a sticky mass piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes. That would actually be a very odd verse to use to support a pre-trib rapture, because this is talking about judgment on Babylon during final tribulation times. This is talking about judgment on sinful Babylon. However we interpret Babylon, we won't even debate that, and telling God's people to get out of Babylon. So obviously, at first, the rapture is not God telling you to get out.

The rapture would be God taking you out. At the end of Isaiah 26, it says, Go hide in your inner chamber. Not God saying I'm going to take you out, but you go hide. The same way this is God telling us, Get out! Flee from this worldly system, or this corrupt religious system, or this sinful place. Flee!

Get out! Don't participate in the sins of Babylon. So if we were already raptured out, we wouldn't be here. So that would be a very odd verse. I'm not saying, Jim, that you haven't heard that used, but that would be a very odd verse. Again, it's not saying I will take you out, but rather, rather, it is saying what? You get out.

You flee. Don't partake in the sins of Babylon. And two, this is taking place during what people would say is great tribulation. And here God's people are on the earth in the midst of it. Again, my goal is not to win an argument. My goal is simply to explain why I don't see these verses as supporting a pre-trib rapture, not dividing over it. Bless you in our differences.

I hope you can bless me in our differences, but just looking at the scriptures together. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back, friends, to the line of fire. Michael Brown here talking about pre-tribulational arguments. I've asked folks to post on Facebook and Twitter, but they feel that some of the best arguments for pre-tribulational rapture.

Then I'm explaining why I don't hold to that myself. If you'd like to get a copy of our new book, Not Afraid of the Antichrist, Professor Craig Keener and myself, together with the interview we did yesterday. So packaged together, available exclusively on our website, go to AskDrBrown.org. When you order from the website, if you feel to help us with an additional contribution, that would be greatly appreciated. We are listener viewer sponsored. As I travel regularly, I have folks thank me for what we're doing. We watch you on YouTube, read your articles, thank you for your books, for your debates. It's my privilege, it's my joy, it's my honor, but we do it with your help. We do it together as a team. That means you get to share in the reward.

Amen. So my goal here is is not to argue, but to explain and to give you a perspective that may be different than what you've been exposed to. When I have been part of churches that strongly held to a pre-trib rapture, if the senior leader held to a pre-trib rapture, I honored that, and if I differed with it, I didn't make that known publicly.

Why? Because the leadership taught one thing, and if it was important to them and I differed with it, I privately told them my views. If they said, hey, we're fine with you sharing something different, great.

If not, during that time I didn't share it publicly to honor leaders. So I'm not trying to be divisive. You say, well, just the moment you mention it's divisive. Well, why then are people allowed to preach another position? In other words, if you're gonna preach pre-trib and tell me I can't preach post-trib, that's not right.

So let's all put our views out prayerfully, scripturally, as best as we can, and help people understand and sort through the issues. My question is always, would you come to these conclusions? Would you believe that the second coming is in two parts separated by seven years, a rapture and then a second coming? Would you have come to those conclusions just reading the Bible on your own, or did you have to be taught them?

That was my case. Reading the Bible on my own, we talked about it yesterday with Craig Keener, studying the Scriptures day and night, memorizing 20 verses a day. I didn't find this.

I had to read other books to teach me where it was. Once I stepped away and just read Scripture again, I said, I don't see this in Scripture. Okay, Jimmy said this, Dr. Brown, I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren Assemblies. John Darby started this particular church, and as I'm sure you know, is considered the father of dispensationalism.

He was the one who first published this idea. It stems from a belief in the separation between Israel and the church. I haven't been part of that church in 30 years, but the way they see it, Paul says we're not appointed to wrath, and believers can't experience what we're not appointed to. So the seven-year tribulation is God's wrath being poured out on the earth. The church would have to be removed before this period because the church isn't under the wrath of God.

Jesus took that for her, and to pour it out once again on those already covered would be impossible. Christians suffering as they have since the first century isn't experiencing God's wrath that's suffering the world's wrath. The tribulation is unique in that God is judging the world specifically, bringing Israel to himself and summing up man's reign.

The view only works if a certain view of Israel in the church is true. Jimmy, very well articulated, and you're absolutely right, but let me focus on that idea that we're not appointed to wrath. Paul writes that to the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 1, we're not appointed to wrath. If we're not appointed to wrath, how then can we be here during the seven-year tribulation period where God pours out his wrath on the earth? Okay, problem number one with that is that Paul was writing to the Thessalonians in the first century, right, and those verses have applied to believers ever since, and yet based on the pre-trib view, they're only applicable to the last generation that is rescued when the wrath of God is poured out during the tribulation period. In other words, what did it mean to the Thessalonians, we're not appointed to wrath?

He wasn't talking about seven-year tribulation, he was talking about hellfire. He was talking about the wrath of God in judgment on sinners, all right? Not only so, the full expression of that wrath comes at the second coming, when Jesus returns 2 Thessalonians 1 and flaming fire, taking vengeance on those who don't know God. So what happens is, we are caught up to meet him and descend together with him as he comes in wrath and flaming fire. As for God's wrath being poured out on the earth, yes, it's true that we suffer the wrath of man and the wrath of Satan in every generation, but will we, as God's people, suffer whatever wrath from God is poured out in the tribulation? No, we'll be protected from it, just as God protected the children of Israel when he poured out the plagues on Egypt, Israel was miraculously protected from them. And by the way, if you think of Noah and the flood, God didn't take Noah out of the world.

Think of that. God did not take Noah out of the world, God, the flood came, and Noah and his family, they lived, all lived through it, they were in the midst of the storm, they were on the waters, they were here on the earth, but God prepared an ark for them. God can keep us in the midst of calamity on the earth. We will not be spared from the wrath of man and the wrath of Satan, but the wrath of God is specifically for the ungodly, and God knows how to keep his people. That's a consistent theme in Scripture.

Let's see here. Lorraine says the ten virgins, five are prepared and let in, five are not and are left without. They had no oil. We are the light of the world. Christians, they lost the light because their oil ran out in the Holy Spirit. I believe number ten represents a number. Half will be taken, half will be left, but these half will overcome in the tribulation and make their robes white.

I appreciate the application of that, Lorraine, and even seeing hope for those whose oil went out. But remember what happens, that in this parable, all right, of the bridegroom coming, that five, these are not the brides, these are the bride's maids, and the bride's maids go with the bridegroom to accompany him to the home of the bride. That's what happens. He is going to where the bride is, not taking the bride to another home in that story there.

So we don't want to miss supply. While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast and the door was shut. Now later the other virgins came saying, sir, sir, open up for us.

Let me just take this one step further though. I don't even believe that you can apply every detail of this to rapture, coming, pre-trib, post-trib. Rather, it's a parable to tell us to be ready. It's a parable to teach us to be ready and to be alert and to be waiting with eagerness and with expectation.

That's what it's there to do. You want to use the parable rightly. Let's see. Jennifer, growing up a Southern Baptist, I was always told I didn't have to worry about end times because we won't be here for all of that. As I got older and study scripture more, I believe it will be midway through the tribulation that will be taken.

In Revelation, the church seems to be still present until the chapter about the harvest. My husband believes in pre-trib. Regardless of when it is, I always tell people that God doesn't control the matter when we go.

Well, amen to that, Jennifer. And yes, you and your husband can have different views and love Jesus together. And yes, none of us know how long we'll live. We should all be ready to meet the Lord. We should never think, yeah, I'm not gonna meet the Lord for like 50 years, 30 years, 10, I can do whatever I want. No, if we love the Lord, we live in readiness to meet him, whether he's coming in a day or 100 years. If the Lord said to me, I'm not returning for 200 years, that would not let make me feel any less urgent about the needs today, that would not let me feel any less passionate about running my race because I've only got one race to run, and that would not guarantee that I'm gonna live till tomorrow. The Lord could take me home today, right, or I could be persecuted and killed for the gospel tomorrow. So we live in readiness and expectation either way. But again, one of the issues that I get into in Not Afraid of the Antichrist, I look at the vocabulary of the New Testament regarding the Second Coming, and all the verses that apply to an alleged rapture, the thing that we're looking forward to, they're talking about something public, something everybody sees, a glorious appearing, not a hidden secret rapture where suddenly everybody's gone.

What happened? You know, the pilot's gone from their planes, the driver's gone from their cars, you know the way we've seen it dramatized. No, it's a public appearing. That's what we're looking for. Aren't we longing for his appearing? Aren't we looking for the glorious appearing of our Lord? Isn't that our great hope?

That's what we're looking forward to. All right, Kelly and Kevin, to the church in Philadelphia write, since you've kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Ah, Professor Keener in Not Afraid of the Antichrist says that this is one of the best possible arguments for pre-tribulationism. Here's how he takes it. The normal pre-tribulational assumption is that Jesus will keep believers like those in the church of Philadelphia from going through the Great Tribulation.

He says, nevertheless, this argument quickly runs into problems. What is the hour of testing, and in what way are they kept from it? Elsewhere in Revelation, perhaps 1712, the hour might refer to a brief period near the end, but more often seems to refer to the very end. Revelation 11, 13, 14, 7, 15, 18, 10, 17, 19. That is the case in this context in verse 3. Here, being kept from that hour might simply mean being spared the final judgment. The one other reference to believers being tested could, by contrast, refer to suffering for Christ in this age.

See Revelation 2.10. Thus, we must examine the phrase, keep from. Does keep from mean prevent one from being present during?

That interpretation is not impossible, but can it not equally mean protect from while present? The phrase is not a common one elsewhere in biblical Greek or other Jewish sources. It appears here because it plays on the image in the same verse of keeping God's message. Keeping a message is how this Greek verb translated, keep, functions in other contexts in Revelation.

It gives a whole bunch of references. There is, however, one other New Testament use of the Greek phrase translated here as keep from, and that one other passage uses it to mean protect from. This, too, is John recording words of Jesus. John 17, 15. I am not praying that you take them out of the world, but rather that you keep them from the evil one.

So the wording definitely does not have to mean take out of. Wasn't that interesting? Revelation 17, 15. What does the Lord say? I'm not asking you to take them out of the world, but while in the world to protect them from the evil one, that's all it could mean.

We're great now. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Hey friends, in anticipation of our new book, Not Afraid of the Antichrist, Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Craig Keener and myself, in anticipation of the new book coming out next week, we're focusing on some of these issues this week and next week as well. We'll take a lot of calls about this next week, allow you to give different opinions and we'll interact on it. You can get the book together with the exclusive interview I did with Professor Keener on yesterday's broadcast.

You can get that at our website at a discounted price, and I think you'll be stimulated. But above all, the book will encourage you. The book not just deals with Scripture, but it is a book of faith, it is a book of encouragement, of strength, that we can endure, overcome hardship in Jesus' name, that we are overcomers in and through him. I'm not saying pre-tribbers don't believe that, but I'm saying you'll find the book a faith-building, life-giving book, even if you differ with our conclusions.

I'm not taking calls today but answering questions and responding to verses that have been posted on Facebook and Twitter. The end of the last segment I may have referenced Revelation 17-15, I meant John 17-15, but let's look at this verse. First, in Revelation the third chapter, the verse was raised saying, hey, doesn't this point to a pre-trib rapture? And it says in Revelation chapter 3 verse 10, because you did obey my message about persevering, because you kept my word about patient endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.

So you could say, boy, that strongly points to a pre-trib rapture. Now he was speaking that to the Church of Philadelphia, right? So unless the Church of Philadelphia that he was speaking to is going to be there at the end of the age, what was the relevance to them?

That's the first question. What was the relevance to them? It must have meant something to them in context, yes? Yeah, it can still have a future reference to the church through the ages or the church in the last generation, but what did it mean to the Church of Philadelphia when Jesus spoke it at the end of the first century? So it must have meant something then, and it couldn't mean I'm gonna protect somebody else from a seven-year tribulation period.

It must have meaning for them. Not only so, Professor Keener in our book points out that the same Greek expression is used in John chapter 17 verse 15, and that is such a telling verse, because here Jesus is praying for his disciples. And what does he say in verse 15? I do not ask you to take them out of the world, but to protect them from the evil one.

All right, so we can be protected from trial and test in the midst of this world. Professor Keener also says this, when we expand this query to the larger context of the book of Revelation as a whole, the pre-tribulational interpretation becomes even more problematic. Nowhere in Revelation do we read of believers taken alive from the earth. Nowhere do we read of them being raptured before the tribulation.

Nowhere do we read of Jesus coming before the tribulation. Instead we see some believers protected from judgments, see Revelation 7 3 9 4, but suffering in the world at the hands of their enemies, see Revelation 12 11 13 7. These believers, like those in Philadelphia, keep God's message, see Revelation 12 17. In Revelation 3 10, Jesus addresses a church that has been facing hardship with a little strength, keeping the word of his endurance. He goes on to warn them to continue to hold fast to what they have. Jesus did not preserve the Philadelphian church from eventual extinction, but as long as they persevered, he preserved them, for he is faithful. Well said, Dr.

Keener. All right, let's go over to Twitter. And TJ posted 1 Thessalonians 1 10, that we are to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath. Again, what was the meaning of that to the Thessalonians? 1 Thessalonians 1 10.

What was the meaning of that to them? Is it that a future generation, 2,000 years later, won't go through the tribulation? Or that the coming wrath is God's wrath poured out on a sinning world, the wrath of hell, the wrath of final judgment that we are spared from? And again, when God pours out his wrath on a sinning world, if we are here, we are preserved in the midst of it. And when he comes in blazing fire, we are caught up to meet him and descend together with him. Revelation 3 10, quoted by Hal, we just responded to.

Let's see here. Edwin, Daniel 9 and 12 gives detailed account of the end of all things down to the number of days. But Jesus said no one knows the hour of his coming. If his coming is the end, then we could know his coming. So we either must not be around when the seven-year treaty comes, since we'll then be able to calculate his coming, or Jesus, by saying no one knows his coming, is talking about the rapture. Edwin, I appreciate the points very much, but here's where I differ. Number one, to this moment there is endless disagreement among church interpreters as to the meaning of many of the passages in Daniel about days and weeks.

Many of them. What exactly do they mean? For example, let's take a look in Daniel chapter 12. Daniel chapter 12. Let's take a look there and let's see how much unanimity of opinion there is on what specifically this means.

Oh, we'll scroll down. Revelation, Daniel 12, 11. From the time the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that caused desolation is set up, there will be 1290 days. How blessed will anyone be who waits and arrives at the 1335 days. There's a lot of debate about what exactly does that mean? What are the 1335 days?

So that's one thing. Second, there is the assumption that in Revelation as well, where numbers are used, that none of them are symbolic. Revelation is filled with symbolism. How do you know the days, months, years are not symbolic in Revelation? Why are so many other things symbolic in Revelation but not that? A third thing is, if they are symbolic, then then perhaps there's not a specific seven year tribulation or three and a half year tribulation or great tribulation. And the fourth thing is that that Jesus says that because of the elect the days will be shortened. So you may not know exactly when to start the count. Even if there was a seven year period, you might not know exactly when to start the count. And people say we're in the tribulation, we're in the great tribulation.

No, we're not in it. There's constant debate about that. And again, if the days were shortened, if the days were shortened, then what?

If the days are shortened, then in point of fact, you you have another dilemma, you have another issue, another problem, because that you can't necessarily depend on the counting. So I appreciate the arguments, but they really do break down in that regard. Let's see here. Love your books, Michael. I like Acts 1 6. After 40 days of learning about the canon, the disciples still asked if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel.

Oh yes, absolutely. I don't know if you raised that as a contrary argument or in agreement with me, but certainly God will restore the kingdom to Israel. There will be a thousand year reign. Jesus does not rebuke that question. He doesn't say to his disciples after they've been with him 40 days after his resurrection. And they say, Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel? He doesn't say, you fools, you idiots, you jerks, have I been with you so long, you're still so earthly-minded, I'm trying to get you heavenly-minded, you're so earthly-minded, you're so carnal, what are you thinking, what are you doing? No, he says, not if you know the answer to that.

Not if you know the times that the fathers appoint. He's gonna do it. Just you focus on preaching the gospel. That's that's what he says there. Luke 21 36. This is someone who's not a pre-tribber, but raises this, and it's one of the verses that Professor Keener treats as well, examining some pre-trib arguments. So he has this, this is a verse number five, or argument number five, that he treats, Pray That You May Escape, Luke 21 36. So one thing Professor Keener says, it's possible that Jesus speaks simply of strength to endure until he comes and preserves his people from global judgment.

If so, however, when does he remove them? So Luke 21 36, he's talking about things that are coming, and the judgment coming on the earth, but stay alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man. So he says, if it means simply have the strength to endure, when does he remove them? Before Jerusalem's suffering, or before the coming of his kingdom that destroys the kingdoms of the earth?

Craig says, this brings us to our second observation about this passage. Context rules out a pre-tribulational rapture. Judans who survived the traumatic fall of Jerusalem were taken prisoner and enslaved among the nations. See Luke 21 24.

This happened in the year 70. Gentiles would continue to trample Jerusalem until the end of the times of the Gentiles. See verse 24. At a time of dramatic signs in the sun, moon, and stars, see verses 25 and 26, the terrified nations will witness the Son of Man coming in a cloud. When these events start occurring, Jesus warns, your redemption is drawing near. In the same way, when the signs are evident, the kingdom of God is near. Jesus did not come back soon after Jerusalem's fall, but he will come. Yet the only coming specified in this context is his coming visible to the nations. So what Professor Kean is unpacking here is that it speaks of a post-tribulational coming. And as you see all the upheaval and the chaos, then you look, your redemption is drawing near, and there he is, appearing. It's at hand. We're going to be delivered.

That's what the text is saying. Again, unpacked in greater depth in the book. Benny, on post-trib, but this scripture is a challenge. Matthew 13 30. Allow both to grow together into the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, first gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up, but gather the wheat into my barn.

This is actually a post-trib verse. This is actually the exact opposite. Who gets taken first?

Right? One will be taken, the other left. Who gets taken? The ones taken are the wicked. Look at how Jesus explains this parable at the end of Matthew chapter 13, verse 41. Verse 40, just as the weeds are collected and burned up in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all the things that cause people to sin, and all the people who are against his law, who practice lawlessness. They will throw them into a fiery furnace, and that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the son of the kingdom of their father.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear. So the wicked are taken. The righteous are left, the wicked are taken. So that verse also supports a post-trib reading, not a pre-trib reading. Okay, we'll come back with Daniel's reference to 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, verses 6 through 8.

We'll come back and look at that. Again, my goal is not to win an argument. My goal is to explain why I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, why I haven't for over 40 years, why Professor Keenan doesn't believe in a pre-trib rapture, and we wrote our book not to be divisive, but to encourage others to look at the Word afresh and to help us to prepare for hard times, but over time. Go break. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us today on the Line of Fire. I've been responding to posts on Twitter and Facebook where I asked folks to post what they felt were the strongest arguments for a pre-trib rapture. And again, my goal is not to be argumentative.

I appreciate if you hold to a passionately different view. Let's look at Scripture together and then let's agree we need to preach the gospel to a dying world, we need to live in readiness of the coming of Jesus, and we need to be assured that whatever comes our way, God's grace is enough. To get the book Not Afraid of the Antichrist, which is being, well, we have them in stock, but they're being released to the general public March 19th.

You can get the book together with my interview with Professor Keener at our website AskDrBrown, askyourbrown.org. All right, so Daniel says on Twitter that 2 Thessalonians 2, 6-8 points to a pre-trib rapture. Now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time, for the mystery of iniquity doth already work. Only he who now letteth will let until he be taken out of the way, and then shall that wicked be revealed. So this is taken to mean that the Church, with the Holy Spirit, which stands in the way of a worldwide Antichrist figure, that the Church will be taken out of the way and then the wicked one will be revealed.

Professor Keener deals with this as argument number 10 in evaluating some pre-trib arguments. And what he says is this pre-tribulational argument would become more plausible if the passage actually identified the removed Restrainer as the Church or the Spirit in the Church, but it does not. It speaks ambiguously about the Restrainer appealing to the Thessalonian believers memory of what Paul explained to them when he was with them. It might not even be safe for Paul to be more explicit in a letter depending on what he means by the Restrainer. Does it have to do something with with Roman government or law or authority figure or whatever?

You know, what is the it or the thing that will be taken out of the way? He says there are in fact a wide range of views, more than 30, about what could restrain the man of lawlessness for being worshipped at the site of the Temple. If Paul speaks politically he could speak of Judean strength. The Temple would be desecrated only once Judean resistance was crushed. After this Jerusalemites faced a new exile compared Luke 21 24, perhaps Revelation 12 6. If he speaks spiritually, some suggest he refers to Michael the guardian angel of Israel who would stand, perhaps meaning out of the way, when Israel would face its final tribulation before the raising of the dead. Some think that the Restrainer is simply God's restraining hand. Since the phrase taken out of the way can also be rendered literally come forth from the midst, it might refer to the presence of God leaving the sanctuary, as happened before.

So he gives example and example as to what it could possibly possibly mean. Then he says this, if by contrast Paul were speaking of the church being removed from the earth, one would have to ask how and why these saints restrained the men of lawlessness, yet the Saints elsewhere depicted during the tribulation do not do so. In other words, throughout the book of Revelation the Saints are being killed and persecuted for keeping the commandments, and he gives examples throughout the book of Revelation in the 13th chapter, 14th chapter, 16th, 17th, 18th chapters. So how is it that the Saints on earth then are not restraining the Antichrist? If Paul were speaking of the Spirit in the church, one might ask how the Saints in the tribulation have converted and testify for God without the Spirit, and how can there can be prophets? The idea that the church is taken out of them, with that the Holy Spirit taken out, well then who's converting people during the Great Tribulation, and how can there be prophets ministering, prophets ministering by the Spirit?

So the Spirit's obviously here during tribulation, and God's people are here during tribulation, so the question is then why aren't they stopping the Antichrist if it's the church and the Spirit that stop him? After all, the Saints testify for Jesus, and the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. And if one argues from silence that the Spirit is not explicitly mentioned with these Saints during the tribulation, what is one to make of the lack of explicit association of the Spirit with them in the New Jerusalem? Right, I mean where does it speak of the Spirit being with the church in the New Jerusalem? So just because it doesn't mention the Spirit by name doesn't mean the Spirit's not active. In fact, the passage cannot speak of the church, Craig says, or the Spirit in the church, being removed before the tribulation, because the context of the passage explicitly indicates that we will not be gathered to Jesus before the man of lawlessness appears and is seated in the temple.

If the passage refers to the Great Tribulation at all, it is certainly not speaking of believers being exempted from it. We will discuss the relevance of 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 more fully in our arguments for a post-tribulational gathering of believers below, so that's when he'll unpack it even more. But let's take a look, let's start 2 Thessalonians chapter 1. 2 Thessalonians chapter 1. And Paul speaks there a word of encouragement.

Let's go to chapter 1 first, Kai. 2 Thessalonians chapter 1. Paul is speaking to the Thessalonian believers in the midst of persecution. And what does he say to the Thessalonian believers beginning in verse 6? So 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 verse 6. He says, he says this, after all it is right in the sight of God to pay back trouble to those who trouble you and relief to you who suffer trouble among us. At the revelation of the Lord Yeshua from heaven with his mighty angels and flaming fire, he will command judgment on those who do not know God and do not heed the good news of our Lord Yeshua.

They will pay the price of eternal ruin away from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power. On that day when he comes to be glorified among his holy ones and marveled at by all who have believed, because our testimony to was believed. So that's when rest comes to them, right? That's when rest comes to the Thessalonians. That's when they are delivered, right? This is when believers are going to be delivered.

When? When he returns in flaming fire. That's when we're gonna admire, wow, how amazing he's come and delivered us. Not a secret event, but we get deliverance when he comes in flaming fire judging the world.

Now he continues into the second chapter, all right? 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 1. But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to him, I'm asking you not to get shaken out of your mind or disturbed, either by a spirit or a word or a letter as if through us, as though the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the one destined to be destroyed. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called God or object of worships that he sits in the temple of God proclaiming himself that he is God.

Let's leave the text up on the screen here as I'm speaking. Paul's saying, maybe you heard something, the day the Lord came and you missed it or something, no, no, don't let anybody unsettle you, because the rebellion has to come first and the man of lawlessness has to be revealed, the one destined to be destroyed. So if that has not yet happened, if there hasn't been this final rebellion, and if there is not this Antichrist figure, all right, if that is not the case, then it hasn't come yet, all right? Don't think there is some spiritual coming that you missed. You say, no, no, no, but that word rebellion, apostasia, in Greek, if you're really studied, it means catching away or taking away.

Well, in point of fact, you can check virtually every major Greek lexicon and you can track virtually every modern English translation and translation into many languages, and you'll see it's rendered as apostasy, not as like a catching away, but even if you're trying to argue it, it still doesn't work, because Paul's telling them that the man of lawlessness has to be revealed, and you're gonna see it. So if he hasn't been revealed and you haven't seen it yet, then that means the day of the Lord hasn't come yet. So don't be disturbed by these odd teachings.

He's gonna come in a way that's public and definite. Don't you remember that when I was still with you, I was telling you these things, and you know what now holds back for him to be revealed in his own time. So Paul must have explained that. As Professor Keener said, there are about 30 different interpretations of what these verses mean. Verse 7, the mystery of lawlessness is already operating.

Only there is one who holds back just now until he's taken out of the way. And there are many different explanations as to what that could be. Then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Yeshua will slay him with the breath of his mouth and wipe him out with the appearance of his coming.

It's visible! The coming of the lawless one is connected to the activity of Satan, etc. So he's gonna be revealed, and then Jesus is going to be revealed to destroy him, and that's when we were caught up to meet him. One more argument. Lewis says, strong preacher of argument, John McCarthy teaches it, smiley face. So obviously I respect teachers that teach it, I respect teachers that don't teach it, but there was a smiley face there anyway.

I'm smiling back. An argument I hear often is that in Revelation, after the voice tells John to come up here, the church is never mentioned again. The focus is completely on Israel, therefore the church must not be on the earth anymore.

Ah! So John is told, come up here, and that's supposed to be symbolic of the church being caught up. And in Revelation 1 through 3, Jesus keeps speaking about the churches, the seven churches, and then Revelation 2 and 3, to the church in Ephesus, to the church in Smyrna, to the church in Thyatira, right? And he goes on to the seven churches in Asia Minor, but there's no reference to the Ekklesia, the church after that. Well, you know there's no reference to the Ekklesia in heaven either. This is no reference to Ekklesia. Why is there reference to Ekklesia in the first two chapters so much? Because he's writing to the church here, to the church here, to the church here, to the church in the city, to the church in that city. That's why! But in point of fact, in point of fact, there's no reference to the Ekklesia in heaven.

So if the church is taken up to heaven, how come there's no reference to the Ekklesia there? And it doesn't just say Israel, it's God's people that are on the earth persecuted in the midst of Great Tribulation, and yet kept by God. We are overcomers, friend. We are overcomers. Nothing the enemy can bring against us should intimidate us or scare us.

In ourselves we are no match, but in Jesus we are more than conquerors. All right, we can have our differences over these things, but I want to discuss them. Next week we'll plan on taking some extra calls. Got a fascinating interview, I mean fascinated, by a Christian author who wants to show us how the world is getting better and the Gospels actually spreading around the earth. Talk with him tomorrow, 30 Jewish Thursday.

On Thursday then your general questions on Friday, and then we'll focus more on this, take more calls next week. Again, you can get the book Not Afraid of the Antichrist on our website, together with yesterday's interview with Professor Craig Keener, or you can get it to your local bookstore next week for our online vendors as well. Let's grow, let's study, let's learn, and let's say, Lord, whatever your word says, we embrace. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Back with you. Another program powered by the Truth Network.