Will the Real America Please Rise?

So was America ever a Christian nation where we found it is a Christian nation? What's the truth?

It's time for the Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six, three, four. That's eight six six three four. Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We're going to dig deep and dig deep into American history.

We're going to separate some myth with fact and truth.

We're going to find out about the founding of America. Bottom of the hour, we'll be joined by author Robert Riley, who is a former special assistant to Ronald Reagan, has a new book out called America on Trial, talking about the founding of the nation, which is a big issue these days. We're going to talk about it. Get your feedback and then talk about an Australian professor fired for speaking the truth on his campus. He's calling for kamikaze academics. And then a question I'd rather not ask, but I'm going to ask, which is this? Will it take a president, Kamala Harris, to wake up the Church of America? Could a reelection of Trump give a false sense of security? What can we do about that? Or stall that false sense of security? Michael Brown. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Here's a number to call it. Six six three four truth eight six six three four. Truth is the number to call.

And I'd like your feedback. I did this Twitter poll and let's look at the responses to it. I asked the question on Twitter. Which statement do you agree with most? America was founded as a Christian nation. Choice one choice, too. America has strong Christian roots, but was never a Christian nation. Choice three America was founded on hypocrisy, violence and racism. And then another choice other. Please explain. So looking at this poll, the results have been very interesting so far. And there the vast majority. Over 90 percent have voted for either founded as a Christian nation or strong Christian roots, but was never a Christian nation. Forty five point four percent of those polled said founded as a Christian nation.

Forty six point two percent said has Christian roots, but was never actually a Christian nation. Four point six percent said hypocritical and racist terms of its founding in terms of its history. I would say that if we had done that poll six months ago, the results would be a little different, would have as many people with the opinion that America was founded as a hypocritical and racist nation and then other people weighing in with different options, different choices, different perspectives.

I want to throw something out to you in terms of blindspots that we have in terms of things that are normal for our culture, that we accept. And then we judge others and then they look at us and judge us. In other words, a lot of stuff is relative and we have blind spots. So, yes, there are absolute rights and wrongs. But we want to judge others the same way that we want to be judged as well. Let me give an example of something. There is an American missionary working in Indonesia. He gave a test to his theology students, his Bible students, and it was multiple choice. So, you know, you're always taught growing up with multiple choice, if you're not sure. Just take a guess. It can't hurt. If you leave it blank, it's definitely wrong. If you take a guess, maybe it's one in four choices. You have four choices for each question. You get a 25 percent chance of getting it right. And maybe, you know, one or two of the answers definitely wants to be you have a 50 percent chance or even higher of getting it right. So when the test came back, this American missionary was teaching Bible to Indonesian students. He noticed that many of them left questions blank. They didn't fill in an answer, multiple choice. So he's reviewing the test with the students. And he asked one student, why did you leave it blank? And he said, well, I didn't know the answer. And he said, you see the American ethic. We'll take a shot. Just fill inside. That's what I've always done right this day. Multiple choice. You're not sure? Take a shot, maybe get it right. But worst case scenario, if you leave it blank, it's definitely wrong. So the students who might know the answer. Teacher said, why didn't you then fill in the blank? Just take a guess. Just pick any of them. You could get it right. And the student was mortified. As were the other students. And he said, but if I guessed right, that would give you the impression that I knew the right answer on the test. And that would be a false impression. So for him, the Christian ethic was leave it blank. And the Bible teacher thought, your ethic is better than my ethic. From a biblical point of view, not in terms of who's going to do better on the test, but in terms of a biblical ethic. He talked about another situation. He was in a tribal village and they were debating a situation. The elders of the church were debating a situation. Now I'm going to talk to some of the founding of America is going to make a lot of sense to you in a moment. So he is talking to the elders, the church. They said there was a couple young couple, Christian couple, and they eloped. They got married. Now they've come back to our church community and they want to be reinstated. Said, well, they're married, right? Yes, of course. You reinstated what? What's the problem? And the elders looked them in shock. Have you never read the words of Paul? It said to honor and obey your mother and father. The Ten Commandments children obey your parents. And that culture parents would give blessing and approval for marriage. So they willingly disobeyed their parents to elope and get married. And in their culture, using the same Bible, they came to a very different view than someone from a Western culture. Ustedes. Tell your parents and marry this one. To marry that one. All right. So what's my point? Are you a taxpayer in America? Yeah. Well, then you've been funding Planned Parenthood. It's reality. Right. Planned Parenthood's get federal funding. Somewhere along the line. Tax dollars used for abortion. We've been paying taxes, haven't we? Is it possible another generation will come along and judge us? You're like, no, but we're fighting for pro-life. We're fighting against abortion. You know, many of the founding fathers opposed slavery through our history has been a fight over slavery and and philosophical differences, humanitarian differences and various things like that. Yet our generation sits and looks with extreme judgment on the founding fathers. And slavery is inexcusable. I understand that. But this was the custom and culture of the day from and from whence they came. All right. But there was always argument over it and pushback among many not to justify their behavior, but to say that was the norm for them. And then ultimately, Christian faith prevailed and pushed that barbarous, horrific practice away. Well, we've been engaging in abortion, aborted about 60 million babies since 1973. And we sit down, look down our long, self-righteous noses at the past and say, how could you do well? How could we do what we're doing? Well, let's look at it from another angle. The same everything about paying taxes. How many of you that identifies pro-life Christians other than cast a vote in relevant elections actually do anything for the pro-life move? How many of you have done anything sacrificial to save the life of an unborn baby? Well, then how can you sit in judgment on the founders for whom slavery was normal and some said we have to be more humanitarian about it or things like that or release slaves apart, that whatever things they came up with. But you hear my point was so righteous in our own eyes. We're so good in our own eyes and we judge others. I say let's use the same standard of judgment on all. At that point, it becomes a little scary. OK, so what's your take? Eight six six three four eight seven eight eight four. What do you think about the founding of America? Was it founded as a Christian nation? You go back to the colonies and the colonies in certain cases were founded as theocracies. In other words, Jesus Christ is our king. Yes, they were under the kingship of of England. But Jesus Christ is their ultimate. Can't get in. And things were enforced. Church attendance could be enforced. Other things can be enforced. There'd be penalties for various biblical violations. Sabbath observance enforced. And when the old Luter Act was passed and this was early on in the colonies, sixteen hundreds. It was to ensure that if a community had at least 50 students in it, that you would start a school and you'd have to have a school or whatever. The number is 50 people in the community that the reason you had to have a school so the children could learn to read the Bible. Because in prior centuries, the Bible had been kept from the language of the people and the Church of the Day kept it just Latin, only the clergy could read it plainly. The clergy didn't even bother reading it. Now, through change in Wickliffe and Tindale and others, the Bible is available in the languages of people lose losers. Translation into German. So now anyone can read it and there say here but you can't read it if can't read. So we're going to establish in the colonies that if you have a certain amount of people, the community, that you must establish a school so that the children can learn to read, so that they can read the Bible and the old delude or they are talking about with Satan. And they're saying, look, he kept the Bible away from us in the past. He kept it away from us in the past by by saying it's only the clergy, you know, just put that deception out there. Only the elite can read it. It's not for the common people. So you don't translate into their language that, look, the first people tried to translate the Bible into English, killed for John Wickliffe, paid with his life, Tindale persecuted. Go underground and so on. That's retranslated. Think of it for translating the Bible into the language of the people. How unimaginable that the church thought that it did. So the colonists said, well, hey, Satan can win here we have the Bible. But if we don't learn how to read, we can't read it. So there's no question that the colonies were founded based on strong biblical principles. But then some had deep mixture and hypocrisy because of the practice of slavery or other things that they brought over or or an environment where you could have the Salem witch trials. I mean, they get blown out of proportion historically in terms of what actually happened, but still horrific to think back to that. So there was much that was biblical and much that was not biblical. There was a mixture there. But when you look back at founding documents and founding philosophy, so much of it flows from scripture. So much of the early interaction of the founding fathers is quoting scripture and documents going back to scripture.

So maybe the better way to say it is the nation had strong Christian roots or strong Judeo Christian roots. And it was then understood that America would be a religious and moral people. As John Adams famously said, the Constitution was only made for religious and moral people as that are.

We should look at it. It's never been a fully Christian nation. Obviously, America has never been a fully Christian nation. But were we more Christian in the past, despite slavery, despite segregation? Were we more Christian in other ways? Many of the ways, yes. Many other ways, yes. And that's the mixture of our history, that's the mixture of the human race. So what do you think? What's what's your take when you look at American history? Look at it with pride. Shame both.

We'll talk about it. And then kamikaze academics when the rules that take that.

It's the line of fire with your host, Doctor Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling eight six six three for treatment. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire. Michael Brown, delighted to be with you. Eight six six three four eight seven eight eight four. Before I speak with my guest, Robert Riley, about America on trial and a review of the founding principles of our nation. I read an article a few days ago about kamikaze academics. What? What a kamikaze academics. Well, kamikaze pilots. There were those who gave their lives, some willingly, some unwillingly, the pressure of war. People enlisted to do things that never would have done, but they became weapons themselves. They would intentionally crash their planes into enemy targets or targets, crashed their planes, and the pilots would die in the process. So the concept of kamikaze is it's going to cost you your life to do this. What what are kamikaze academics?

There is an Australian professor, Dr Peter Ridd, and he had questioned some of the politically correct statements being made about the Great Barrier Reef. Do I know nothing about the Great Barrier Reef? I mean, the little one I read in the article and questions about what's actually happening with it and global warming and how it's affecting the reef, etc, etc.. He went against the politically correct, narrative challenged things others professors were saying, and despite being in the university for decades, he gets fired. Well, he then takes university to court and the court sides with him. Well, then the university hires the top prosecutor. They can from what I understand, it bounces up to an even higher court. That court rules against the professor. And now he's appealing to the highest court, equal them to the Supreme Court of Australia. But here's where he calls for. He specifically called for it, quote, kamikaze academics. And this is this is what he said. He said that we, the older professors. He said it's only older academics like me who can do this. We have a duty to do this so that you younger academics can have a proper academic career where they can say tough things are even stupid things to still be forgiven. You need to be able to make mistakes. Otherwise, kamikaze academics means you speak out, you speak out regardless. You you you say what's right. You make your statements. You you get your positions out and let the chips fall where they may. Here's how James Delingpole described it on break. Borsa Commies had kamikaze academics will comprise professors like himself, like Dr. Reed willing to get themselves fired for expressing opinions which go against the standard leftist narrative. And in doing so, expose how little free speech and diversity of thought there now is in academe. Wu. Hang on. You go to school for many years to become a professor. And then you work hard as a professor. And at some universities, if you want to make your way up the ranks, you have to keep being published and being respected and listened to and so on. And now you're going to destroy everything you've built just because you have a contrary opinion. Well, it's the Jesus principle that if you save your life, you lose it. If you lose your life, you find it. What does it mean? It means we say, well, you know, I, I buy I can't say if I say this can be one pop, if I will. If I do this, I mean, I get my promotion, all my tenure would be threatened that I need to be secure. You've lost your life. You're not standing for truth anymore. You're not standing on principle anymore. You're not standing in integrity anymore. You're just pragmatically saying, well, it's little safer to do that then than anything could happen. The university plunges into all kinds of analysts to say you're in Germany and the university wholeheartedly endorses Naziism and Hitler in the extermination of the Jews. I don't want to say no. Well, you better say something. You may want to flee for your life, but you've lost your life by not speaking. You have lost your integrity. And many of the pastors preachers do it. Educators do it. Kids do it. Peer pressure. It can happen to any of us that you you sacrifice yourself. You you you sacrifice your very being for political or popular expediency. If you lose your life, you find it. If you say I'm going to do what's right, regardless of cost or consequence, I'm going to stand up for the truth, even if it means rejection and hatred. Now you're free. You have now found your life. No one can threaten you because you have already died to what people think. And now you're free to do the will of God. You're free to do the right thing. It's not just kamikaze academics. This must happen in every area of society, in every single area of society. We must be willing to speak the truth regardless of cost consequence. Now there is wisdom. There's a time to speak in a time not to speak. Just don't let it be because you're afraid of the consequences. And we do what we do with grace. Our goal is not to be troublemaker. Some of us like to be troublemakers, just provoke a fight. But that's that's not going to advance a good cause, ultimately. But if you'll speak the truth, trouble come your way. Trust me, if you stand for what's right. Trouble will come your way. Jesus says blessed are those truly happy, those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. So Kamikaze Amik academics, I like the concept Lidice translated into every area of society. All right. Let's get some feedback. We'll start in Durham, North Carolina. Paulette, what's your take about the founding of America?

Well, you there politicians are not necessarily. Go ahead. I you remember my question to you, why is it I can't talk of the people here for me?

Because they were been told to leave if I wasn't allowed to leave? What would you suggest I have here? And this is Senator Reid. There's a strategy here.

So you're saying the simple purpose that they came looking for religious freedom. Right. So that was their first founding principle and everything else is kind of secondary and and falls into place after that. Yeah. Pullet, many would would agree with you on that. Does that mean that in your mind that everything they did was Christian and. Right.

No. OK.

Because when they came to to sleep, there wasn't really they didn't want to make it. They were just with. So I.

Got it. So. So here's the interesting thought then that there you could look at a couple of different ways and pull it out. Appreciate the call. Because what you're expressing is what many of us would express. You could say it like this. That the goal was not to enforce Christianity on everyone, but to have a government that would give them freedom to practice their faith. And of course, with many. The assumption was that it would be the Christian faith. That would be the faith of the nation. But she could not have one state church or one dominant aspect of Christianity and forced on everyone, but that there would be the freedom to practice these things. And that freedom is being tremendously challenged in our day, like never before in our history is no exaggeration. It's like never before in our history that freedom is being challenged here. Just take it away from it. Think of this in terms of the important role that religion played, specifically the Christian religion in the founding of our America, of America, with all of our warts and blemishes. OK. There's no question that the Christian faith played an important role in the founding of America. And in the idea that that Christians in America could be discriminated against as Christians was completely unthinkable.

Completely unthinkable. Right. So. Think of this. The governor of Nevada says.

Now that we're reopening things on some level with the virus, church buildings, you have an extra 50 people in the building, a governor are building seats, 500. You can have a maximum of 50 people in your service. Excuse me, Governor, are building seats 2000. Yeah, you can have a maximum of of 50 people in your building.

OK, so that's just consistent for businesses there. Oh, no, no, if your casino you got a 50 percent capacity. 50 percent capacity in the casino is fine. So I don't know, big casinos are. I mean, I'm not examine them. And what's capful capacity is a bit in them. But I don't know, maybe maybe the casino have 5000 people in at one time so that they can have twenty five hundred. That's fine. Gambling, maybe destroying their lives, falling into heavy debt. Do whatever they do. That's fine. Keep drinking, keep me at the tables. OK, maybe feed to the local prostitution. Some of the gal. Who knows? Go ahead, have at it. But church services know only 50 people that that is rank discrimination. Now. One church group got a great idea. Let's hold a service in the casino. Let's do that. We'll hold a service in the casino. So what happens? The casino gets fined by the governor. Gambling, fine, worshiping the Lord. Honoring Jesus. Preaching from the Bible. Not fine. I can guarantee you this. And yes, it was a Democratic governor that ruled in this way. In city after city and state have said this just the reality. The Republicans are not the saviors. But that's just the reality that there has been the unequal treatment of churches. You know, same in California, famously, right. Go protest protests are important. Go and protest. But you've got to church service. Not only you have to meet all these stipulations, but you can't sing. Oh, and by the way, you can't gather in your homes for Bible studies. What kind of outrageous double standards are these? I can assure you that these kinds of attacks on our freedoms were things that would have absolutely shocked our founders. So, of course, the colonists, that's before our founders in some cases, you know, for 150 years before. But our founding fathers, who were not just, you know, Bible bankers, you know, and just quoting the Bible and don't don't just put them in our image today and we'll find out a little bit more about them in a moment. But they never would have countenanced something like this happening in America where freedom, religion. So.

Right. It's the line of fire with your host, Doctor Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

It is the big question these days. It's a question that's constantly before us. The founding of our nation, founding of America.

How Christian were we?

Well, we found it from more principles of enlightenment philosophy than biblical principles. And did we violate biblical principles as hypocrites and slave owners and racists and so on? Robert Riley joined me a few years ago. We discussed this important book, Making Gay. Okay. He was a former special assistant to President Reagan, present Ronald Reagan. He was director of Voice of America. One more thing in his bio caught my eye.

Oh, yeah. A senior adviser for information strategy to the secretary of defense and taught at National Defense University.

Here's a brand new book out, America on Trial A Defense of the Founding. And I thought, well, we've got to get Robert Riley on here to discuss this, so. Robert, welcome back to the Line of Fire. Thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me back. Good to be with you again.

Well, sir, tell us in what sense America is on trial. Who's putting America on trial? What are we on trial about? And what's your role in the trial?

Well, I think I'm standing for the defense of the American founding and in the primitive old. And we're on trial from almost every sector of American society.

The fact that we're on trial from the left and in the streets with the rioters and demonstrators is apparent to everyone on.

But we're also on trial from some Christian conservative circles who are saying, well, we're in this state of moral degradation today because of our principles on they were mandated. I read a little enlightenment principles of individual autonomy. And as Christianity recedes it over in this country. So the manifestation of this radical individualism becomes more manifest in homosexual so-called marriage drugs. The solution of the family is.

All right. So the argument would be that the problems in America today tie back to its defective founding, and you would say that our problems are a result of of straying from the founding has had an oversimplification.

No, I think that my thesis and I said it, by the way, I'm getting a huge echo when I talk to you every hour.

And we we are aware of that. And if it continues, we will. We'll just have to fix the call and reschedule. I'm become aware of that problem. So my apologies to you. I'm not hearing it, but appears that others are. And I've had that during interviews and it's terribly distracting. So if it continues on another minute or two, we will just get you back and we'll reschedule so we can hear you. That's weird. I don't want this to be compromised in any way. All right. Thank you. Let's. Let's give it one more shot. If you're hearing an echo, we'll just we'll just cut the interview right here. But how long did you work on this? This book, is this been something you've been focused on for many years that kind of came to a head in light of the current cultural situation?

Well, the idea for the book first arose about five years ago. It's not something I had the opportunity to work continuously on and I would say it's kind of serendipitous that it came out just when it did this spring, because I think it meets a profound need, particularly in a world where both sides of the political spectrum are saying that there was a morally compromised founding on the left. The New York Times gives us the 16 19 project when the Englishman first brought slaves to the American colonies and said, that's it, racism is the foundation of the United States. Who are these? Is this is the absurdities to which people go to make a case like this, when obviously slavery was antithetical to the American founding, which announced that all men are created equal. If I could just dwell on the slavery issue for a moment because it's become so big. Slavery was universal, practiced everywhere for millennia, for as long as recorded history, there was slavery everywhere. So the big question shouldn't concern. Well, here's a group of slaves being brought to the American colonies. It should be. How is it that the country that was founded on the principle that all men are created equal, eliminated slavery? That's the interesting thing. How was it that it occurred to men that slavery is a moral evil that needs to be extra paid with prudence over time? And of course, that's what was provided for in the American founding, which, by the way, doesn't in its constitution mention the word slavery because slavery was considered such a of a moral evil, even by those men who had slaves that they didn't want it contaminating the Constitution between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Measures were taken for all the states north of the Mason-Dixon line and north of the Ohio River to eliminate slavery. Or put in place measures that led to its elimination. The Northwest Ordinance, which ruled the new territories in the upper Midwest and the Midwest, stated that slavery was there forever banned. And the Constitution itself provided for the possibility of a law, an 18 way to eliminate the international slave trade, which indeed it did. And 12 years later made trading in slaves internationally a capital crime. So this this was there from the beginning. Alas, it couldn't be resolved peacefully.

But in the terrible tragedy of the American Civil War, which finally brought about its end in the 13th and 14th Amendment. So people who try to bring down the United States as a progenitor of slavery are doing so in the utter ignorance of the fact that it was the United States that ended slavery as against the almost universal practice in the rest of the world except England, which also ended slavery. OK. I got that off my chest.

All right. So let me go to something that's right in the forward great forward written to your book.

Quoting from the Federalist Papers, the first paragraph of the Federalist says that Americans are appointed, quote, to decide the important question, where the societies of men are really capable or not of establishing good government. From reflection and choice. Or whether they are forever destined to depend for their political constitutions on accident and force.

So what was the intentionality behind the founding of the United States of America and what was unique about it?

What was unique was precisely the opportunity to do exactly that. To found I found a country, can a country be founded through reflection and choice, through reasonable consideration of what is the best regime? What what is the best we can do as human beings under these circumstances to create a country based upon the principles of justice and freedom? And it was through that consideration ended perhaps the declaration, of course, after the victory of this Revolutionary War, that the great constitutional convention created a document which was absolutely unique in the history of the world, which was a dual sovereignty with the federal government and the sovereignty of the individual states. When people talk about or scorned what's called American exceptionalism, they usually don't know what American exceptionalism means. It means exactly this that it seems until that point you couldn't point to another founding of a regime in history that had the opportunity to create a new nation through reflection and choice. They were all, to some degree, the product of accident and force. And this points to the key thing about the nature of the United States, and that is the primacy of reason. The status of reason to rule, not the primacy of the will, which is what the whole American Revolution was against as they were being ruled without their own consent. And as rational creatures with free will, they said this was against. Both the laws of nature and of nature's God. And they were justified and a revolution against Great Britain cause they were being treated as less than human.

Caused a long struggle. No, go ahead.

Yes. But, you know, there is what I tried to do in this book. The major part of it tries to answer the question, how is it that the American founding became conceivable? From where did the ideas that made it possible come? Who thought them up and in what circumstances and with what repercussions? And that brings me to the. It brings me back to the pre philosophical world. The tribal world, so we have some contrast as to what things were like before the existence of philosophy and the Greek world, which discovered that through man's reason he could come to know truth and the truth was universal. It wasn't dependent on what tribe you belong to. There was a truth everywhere at all times for everyone. Now, along with this was another revolutionary. Well, rebel revelation in ancient Jerusalem that there was actually not many gods, but only one, and that he was transcendent and that he did the most extraordinary thing in creating madness in his own image and likeness, as Genesis tells us. That's unique among the religion, certainly of the Middle East at the time of the world. That man has something sacred about him, something inviolable because he's made in the divine image.

All right. I'm going to jump in. Robert, if you can just stay over after the break. I've got to ask you a follow up questions.

Important new book, Robert Riley, America on Trial in defense of the founding gates. It's a fascinating in-depth read.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866 reboard. True. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown calling things over 300 patients.

Robert Riley, the author of America on Trial in Defense of the Founding.

Robert Might. My PTSD was Near Eastern Languages and literatures from New York University.

So that meant I was reading literature from the ancient Near East. And while you have many parallels with ancient Near Eastern literature and biblical literature, the things that stand out stand out dramatically. I mean, you read Genesis one to think, where did anyone get this from? When you read the creation accounts from from the other parts of the world and the different gods warring with each other, you read the words of the prophets. You say where they get this from. It's so transcendent and the way human beings who looked at and the way God is understood and viewed.

You're saying that's the ultimate root, going back to the God of the Bible, even that the God of ancient Israel, that that paves the way for America being what America is and its very, very best that that's how far back you trace it?

Oh, I think so. The founders themselves very clearly look back at ancient Israel and to the covenants they had with God as a model. They were inspired by it. John Adams said as much as he loved the ancient Greeks and philosophy.

He loved the Jews even more and thought that their contribution to civilization was the greatest. But of course, it was Christ, the revelation of his incarnation that brought a conjoining of both Greek philosophy and Jewish monarchs.

Yes, some together kind of reconcile reconciliation of reason and faith less important. And a universalist nation of Jewish monarchs. Yes, some. Well, with the addition that. God introduces himself in the gospel of Saint John, and the beginning was the word for it was this God, the word was God. All things are made through him. Word of a chorus in Greek was Largos, which means treason, as you know, or word. So we know now why there's a rational order in creation. It's because God himself is this divine intelligence, this reason. But he's also got God. He's this overflowing sacrificial love.

And added to what Janice does, pop in place of the divine image and each human being when we learn through Christian revelation that each individual is the object of infinite love. Each person is irreplaceable. And each person has a destiny through Christ in God's life. And that is doesn't go through the ancient city, doesn't go through the cosmological empires. Each individual person has a relationship with this savior, God. So it removes from the political order any salvific enterprise. The state politics is forever deflated. Because salvation comes through this personal relationship with Christ, which is quite outside the state. And without that revelation and that famous remark that gives a seizure, what a seizure and to God, what is God's? That wouldn't we wouldn't have such a thing as what a secular we wouldn't have, you know, a church in states that are understood as independent of each other where the state cannot rule the church. The church has its own integrity and independence. And the state has no salvific role. This this is without the dead understanding. Such a thing as constitutionalism would never have arisen because otherwise there wouldn't have been a limitation on the state.

Right. So all this factors in in a practical way that fleshes out into the life of a nation. And you know, Robert, as I'm hearing you speak and friends get the book. We're just barely getting the tip of the iceberg here. America on trial, a defense of the founding. Robert Ryley, the author. Robert, as I'm as I'm listening to you. I'm just thinking is OK. Here's the reality. You have a bunch of people forming a nation and they're people so flawed people and not all of them even professing Christian. You have people different backgrounds and none of them perfect Christians trying to do something together. So the principles, the high and lofty principles are the things that we're focusing on. And then that we're called to live up to. And when we understand that, that's when we can understand that the high, lofty principles of the founding, even though we fall short of them. That's what gets it by holding to them. It's what gets us where we need to go. Robert, thanks for joining us. I'm sure we'll talk again. But blessings on your ongoing work and research. Keep up the good work. I appreciate it, sir.

Thank you so much. All right.

Yeah. I mean, it's it's as simple as a simple thing when you think about it, right? Was it a Christian nation? Well. There's never been anyone perfectly Christian. Jesus is only perfect when I lived on this earth. Right. And you have a bunch of people coming together, found a nation. Some are not even believers in God or they don't believe in the God of the Bible. And so you've got this mixture coming together. This, of course, is of course, it's going to be mixed. Yeah. All right. I want to grab a few calls before we are done, but be sure to check out my new article, Astarte to Brown Dot or extreme dot org. Other Web sites. Does the church need a president, Kamala Harris, to fully awaken us? Because here's my concern. All those who feel that a vote for President Trump will be a vote for religious liberty, a vote for President Trump will be a vote for pro-life. A vote for President Trump will be a vote to push back against radical LGBT extremism in the laws. A vote for Donald Trump of your vote to stand with Israel against Islamic terrorism and things like that. That if he gets reelected. Are you going to take what's going to solve the problems? It doesn't solve problems. As I've said repeatedly and as I was preaching this past Sunday, people actually stood to their feet when I made this statement. I was talking about my new book, Evangelicals at the Crossroads, and in that context, made the statement that even a President Trump is the right candidate. At best. He's like a wedge in the door, like a human wedge in the door to stop it from slamming the church. Better Wakan. But I've seen it's taken some of these extremist covered 19 to get many churches to awaken from slumber and start to think about being the church in their communities, not just going to church services and to awaken others to stand against unrighteousness in the government. Whereas before, like, wow, I know how much we can say now there's been a stirring. So will it take if president if it's a President Biden, we know he's become more extremely left in his policies. But how long will he be able to govern with be President Kamala Harris? And as militantly anti life is as any candidate we've ever had?

A friend of mine, native California, wrote this to me. He said she terrifies me. At least Biden has a purported Catholic faith and takes a trip, a pragmatic view regarding his political stance on abortion.

Ross Harris is vehemently anti life in every conceivable way. Is that what is going to be necessary to get the church to wake up? I hope not. That the will of God be done in the elections was vote accordingly. What we feel is right, but I hope we will recognize that former years of Donald Trump will not save America by any by any stretch of any imagination. Yeah, I'm a broken record on this. We must awaken. All right. Let me. Let me grab some more calls before we're done. Let's go over to Austin, Texas. Jacob, welcome to the Line of Fire. What's your take on the founding of America or the nature of America?

And it's pretty simple. I really appreciate you having me on. Thank you, Dr. Brown. Sure.

Been listening for a long time, but yeah, I mean, it is quite simple. The foundation of our nation has been rooted in the word of God. If you look at the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, it is very apparent. Not only that, but the founding fathers spent days trying to figure out what they were gonna do. And they tried several different things and nothing was coming together. They took a three day break. They all fasted and prayed. And when they came back together, all the founding fathers that signed that constitution, it's like it was the hand of God was putting it together because it all came together. Now, there were some things with the Constitution that that when they were writing it, they didn't understand. Are they? They believe that there was more rights that needed to be had. That's where the bill. Right. Came from. And that came afterwards. And these are the things that our founding fathers found in the word of God, saying this is what God has mandated and said these are what mankind should have. And then after that, what we want our government to have. And we didn't want a government because we just came from that. Right. England, they were doing everything it can or everything they wanted to with with a king.

And they were able to trample on the rights of justice. The people in Ann, the other did not want that. All right. And so they wanted justice to hang on. So just like I even mounted and rooted in the now I. All right. Hang on.

Maybe you weren't hearing the question I wanted to to ask, but. Would you say that the principles were there, that the principles were rightly laid out that led then to full equality for women in later liberation of slaves and equality of all colors? Or would you say that the principles. Were they blind to those principles? Because you have some of a mix. Unfortunately, I won't get to to get your answer to that. And other calls just looking found that with Christian principles we didn't live up to. I think as we look back, we have to look back with pragmatism and realism. We have to. And appreciate your input, Jacob. We have to look back and recognize again that this is not the Bible and this is not the kingdom of God on Earth and it's not utopia. But the principles on which we were founded are excellent principles, which, if lived out, can still lead to America being a great nation.

That plus the world, even though it will never be entirely Christian as well, nowhere on the Earth.

So Jesus comes and establishes a scheme.